I'm out of sensible suggestions here. TR has been the spectrum from "kick them, they're useless" to "OMG OP nerf it nao!"
Let the bodies hit the floor, let the bodies hit the floor!
The only solution other classes can have is wait till a fix. I fought against people of Exodus and Purple Dragon and it was like a piece of cake to slice through them. They only won the match because they had TS while i was on a random group.
The only thing you can do against an TR is set him against a good equipped GF or an good TR Wisperknife scoundrel. Sometimes an healing cleric can do the job too. But CW, HR and GWF are melting like ice in a desert.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
1) Buy a Poking Stick.
2) Jab people with it during PvP.
3) See if it works on Lostmauth too, or Malabog.
I'm out of sensible suggestions here. TR has been the spectrum from "kick them, they're useless" to "OMG OP nerf it nao!"
I'm going to see about investing in that stick....
Funny isnt? before Mod5 hits live everyone hates TR for being a dumpling class I remember a conversation with one HR "LF3M CW and GWF only NO TR PLEASE!" i send a message and asked why cant a TR join a pvp/pve premade team? and boom welcome to their ignore list.
I agree with you , TRs are getting way too many passiv stats that other classes , even with huge GS can't achieve, with no penality.
-the 100% critical should either be changed to something like 25% bonus damage or given an ICD of at least 1 minute
-Critical severity bonus from feats should'nt exceed a P. Vorpal
-Piercing damage should not exist in this game
-TR got mobility , high deflect from dex and ITC, the 25% extra deflect severity has no reason to be given to them right now.
-Daze should be toned down to give opponents a chance to fight back
-at-wills should not deal more than 10k damage
1.) Piercing damage IS very important, especially in some Dungeons.
2.) Daze have the same affect as a GWF's Takedown or a CW's entangling force, they stun momentarily for about the same duration.
3.) At-Wills SHOULD deal as much damage as possible.
I have played with TR's in VT, CN, and eLoL and let me tell you..they ROCK. If you strip these out, TR's will have NO PLACE in most dungeons. respect them for PvP ONLY.... but dear God let them do what they do SOOOO WELL in PvE.
Funny isnt? before Mod5 hits live everyone hates TR for being a dumpling class I remember a conversation with one HR "LF3M CW and GWF only NO TR PLEASE!" i send a message and asked why cant a TR join a pvp/pve premade team? and boom welcome to their ignore list.
Its a little different. There is a big difference between being able to fill your AP, press a button (SE) and 1 shot someone. Versus being a contender in PVP.
There is a balance but currently MOST classes actually have fair balance maybe aside from the SW (GF is amazing buff bot just no fun to play). However the TR is on its own level... No class can really compete against that.
You know its broken when you have more than 40k HP and get 1 shot by SE. Dont forget, classes like GWF cant even dodge it at all because their "sprint" only gives a DR boost, but wait! SE ignores all DR.
Just go unstoppable? Oh wait! Ignores DR.
Just stack tenacity - you know that PVP resilience stat that makes all damage do less damage? OH WAIT! Ignores that too!
1.) Piercing damage IS very important, especially in some Dungeons.
2.) Daze have the same affect as a GWF's Takedown or a CW's entangling force, they stun momentarily for about the same duration.
3.) At-Wills SHOULD deal as much damage as possible.
I have played with TR's in VT, CN, and eLoL and let me tell you..they ROCK. If you strip these out, TR's will have NO PLACE in most dungeons. respect them for PvP ONLY.... but dear God let them do what they do SOOOO WELL in PvE.
1) Piercing is irrelevant in dungeons as everyone has now ~25% arm pen.
2) Daze works nowhere near as takedown stun's. Stun duration is affected by deflect, in your case 75%-85% reduction, while daze is NOT.
3) At-wills should NOT do 12-22k dmg like GC, nor CoS should proc piercing dmg multiple times.
My DC can pop a daily every minute or two without trying hard. Likewise my CW. My SW is a little slower but still faster than your TR. All are around the same GS and only the CW has any Siveries in Offence slots - two R6 enchants.
You built a TR specifically focussed on high Recharge while gimping other stats and it STILL has worse AP generation than 3 other classes. Thanks - you just proved my point for me.
I hear ya'. My 18.2k gs CW can daily TWICE in about a minute and some seconds.. I know because I can send 2 ice knives into a dragon that takes only about a minute or so to kill in the WoD
Its a little different. There is a big difference between being able to fill your AP, press a button (SE) and 1 shot someone. Versus being a contender in PVP.
There is a balance but currently MOST classes actually have fair balance maybe aside from the SW (GF is amazing buff bot just no fun to play). However the TR is on its own level... No class can really compete against that.
You know its broken when you have more than 40k HP and get 1 shot by SE. Dont forget, classes like GWF cant even dodge it at all because their "sprint" only gives a DR boost, but wait! SE ignores all DR.
Just go unstoppable? Oh wait! Ignores DR.
Just stack tenacity - you know that PVP resilience stat that makes all damage do less damage? OH WAIT! Ignores that too!
sometimes your on top and sometimes your at the bottom in previous mods rogues got disrespected and humiliated now its our time to collect bodies and pile them up on our K/D list Im aiming for another 1k kills to add to my current 3.6k kills this week and thats solo queue I dont like premade team.
Its just the same with your roar+prone+IBS rotation in the old times right? and way back then we got only 2 dodges and cant kill other class because whiners destroyed rogues and made them assassins who cant kill so dont feel bad its our turn to shine so sit back and enjoy the show.
1) Piercing is irrelevant in dungeons as everyone has now ~25% arm pen.
2) Daze works nowhere near as takedown stun's. Stun duration is affected by deflect, in your case 75%-85% reduction, while daze is NOT.
3) At-wills should NOT do 12-22k dmg like GC, nor CoS should proc piercing dmg multiple times.
In case you were not aware, PvE mobs and such are based on Armor Class, as they do not have a "GS". ArP ignores a portion of this.. ArP is important. Fact
Daze can be mitigated by moving away from the TR once you are dazed...with takedown, and Entangling force, you CANNOT move and take more damage is a shorter amount of time. Fact
Like I said, defuff them for PvP, but LEAVE THEM ALONE for PvE.
25% arm pen, is more than enough for any class in PvE
and again daze CANNOT be mitigated by deflect, you can walk out of smoke bomb and dont stant like a bot sure, but the daze duration gets its full 2.5 seconds effect, 5 if you are scoundrel, while when stuns get deflected they literally last half a second. How's that working similar when ones duration is affected by deflect while other isn't.
In general i have a big problem with classes being able to disengage so fast at 10% hp. TR and GWF/SW most of all, these classes should have a rework done, like gwf/sw to bleed at low hp and sprint too much(not limit the combat capability, but limit the disengage) while TR should stay visible.
You just shouldnt be able to run half the map at 5% hp and hell you shouldnt be able to go stealth at 5% HP.
0
Options
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
TRs are OP beyond beliefs, each of the following aspect makes TR superior:
1) Stealth (THE ultimate defense mechanism and it regens, at least make it work similar to Divinity where they need to spam at will to gain it)
2) High Crit Chance and Severity (Dex super synergy)
3) High Deflect (which reduces CC and see point 1 and 2)
4) High base damage (At will and lashing blade, and see point 2 and 10)
5) Fastest Cooldown (and see point 1)
6) Best Dailies (Shocking Execution and Bloodbath)
7) Smoke bomb (is so much better than Astral Shield yet allow to exist) not only stops all attacks, it does damages and it dazes and it slows for an AOE so wide and last so long. This truly should be a Daily, NOT an encounter with short cooldown.
8) Dazes from crits (see point 2, 4, 5 - so not only is it not good enough that TR can one shot, this ensure TR finish the job, bravo)
9) Dodges refill stealth (weird, why don't dodges refill Divinity?)
10) Piercings (see point 4 and 2)
.............................
Clearly, something has got to give. While they are considering 2s stealth reveal...what about point 2 to 10???? Who in the right mind think it's a good idea that the best offense should also possess the best defense? Why play other classes then? Can Jack Emmert look into this?
The way you post this list of TR powers is composed in a way to make people agree with you.
Yet you have beguiled everyone.
No one TR can have all that you listed above.
Only scondrel class has dazes from crits.
Only sab class has fast cooldown
Only Sab and Executioner have peircing damage.
(sab peircing comes when in stealth and is not very high)
(exe peircing comes from capstone feat and is based on half the original damage done so can be very high)
also stealth does not regen in combat while you are being attacked. you have to slot encounters to refill stealth in combat or go sab for feats that refill with any encounter when hit from behind or once
every 15 seconds.
By the way... smoke bomb has a delay before it activates on players. You can walk out of it or escape it with ease. I love how you make it seem like the best skill ever.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Its a little different. There is a big difference between being able to fill your AP, press a button (SE) and 1 shot someone. Versus being a contender in PVP.
There is a balance but currently MOST classes actually have fair balance maybe aside from the SW (GF is amazing buff bot just no fun to play). However the TR is on its own level... No class can really compete against that.
You know its broken when you have more than 40k HP and get 1 shot by SE. Dont forget, classes like GWF cant even dodge it at all because their "sprint" only gives a DR boost, but wait! SE ignores all DR.
Just go unstoppable? Oh wait! Ignores DR.
Just stack tenacity - you know that PVP resilience stat that makes all damage do less damage? OH WAIT! Ignores that too!
I have use SE and its dodgeable almost fifity percent of the time that's why I use BB rather than that. And why nobody discuss the bug we have like deft strke that dont strike, ITC that is possible to catch, SS that fails as well. How bout HR as well who can Disable you for very long time with a trapper build. nobody is complaining cause the last they saw to make the kill is TR in close range. they don't count the range allies of the TR.
Hey guys,
please stop whining if you loose some pvp-fights. First of all its a question of experience. Look at the pvp board leaders, they got hundreds of games they played. They really know how to play. I met so many CW, GWF an HR who are still hard to kill. They all got something in common: they use unique tactics, they are truly skilled players and most of them got tons of GS.
Of course there are some 11 GS TR who do a lot of kills. But in fact they only can win, when they fight as one team side by side to a skilled DC for example. Most of these wonder TR are easy to be killed 1 on 1.
Be sure...a lot of players are better than you are...always. Go out and practice. Again and again. And someday you find a way to beat so called 'unbeatable players'...
lol, seriously it's always abt the TR's, TR's this, TR's that, I love my TR more than the other classes, how about some of the things I've seen in PvP. Not really worth mentioning although I've been killed and killed sometimes by other TR's or CW's or GWF or how about the GF I could do a full rotation on and could not kill with another one(TR) helping!! I really fail to see what the BIG deal is? There is both PvP and PvE in the game! But I'm sure someone will enlighten me on what I've just said and will I really care? No, what if just for once PWE destroyed the other classes and none of us TR's wanted the other classes in groups with us, wouldn't that be an experience? lol. We are constantly getting nerfed, and yet after reading 6-7 pages of TR's this and yet getting my rear handed to me by a well built DC, really a DC. lol, I guess I should start a thread about what changes should be made to the DC and GF. But, on to my point here did you build your toon right? Did you roll right? If your the PvE player and wanting to PvP, and you come across the PvP guildes I don't see what the problem is.?
Hey guys,
please stop whining if you loose some pvp-fights. First of all its a question of experience. Look at the pvp board leaders, they got hundreds of games they played. They really know how to play. I met so many CW, GWF an HR who are still hard to kill. They all got something in common: they use unique tactics, they are truly skilled players and most of them got tons of GS.
Of course there are some 11 GS TR who do a lot of kills. But in fact they only can win, when they fight as one team side by side to a skilled DC for example. Most of these wonder TR are easy to be killed 1 on 1.
Be sure...a lot of players are better than you are...always. Go out and practice. Again and again. And someday you find a way to beat so called 'unbeatable players'...
Jol
In that case why does it not apply to rogues? - sure they should go and practice to beat people one on one.But they dont need it because right now they have superior advantage over other classes.
It appears to me that a lot of the complaints in this thread have dwindled down to SE.
Sure there have been other issues raised and they have been raised both by people with some knowledge of the abilities/skills/feats but also raised by people who clearly (from their posts) are completely ignorant of the function or limits of said spells/feats etc.
Firstly,
I have every class at lvl60 except GF lol poor guy and have played a lot of pvp on some and only dabbled a little on other classes. I chose to do this because I like to know from my own experience how each class works, it roles, it strengths and indeed it limitations.
This not only helps you know how to synergise and cooperate with other classes in pve and pvp, it also helps you figure out how to counter other classes and builds in pvp. I say 'figure out' because sometime you actually have to use your grey matter to solve a problem, it isnt always going to be given free. A lot of people complaining on here simply havent taken the time to do this and would rather just nerf or gimp something until they can beat it without thought, because thats easier.
On the point of SE (and for that matter many other dailies) the problem is in 2 parts. Firstly, SE clearly hits too hard and bypasses too much in terms of defenses. If someone is similarly geared to you then yeah why not have a daily take away 75% of you hp, it s a freaking daily not an at will or encounter, they were by definition meant to be more potent spells, thus the idea of imiting their frequency by AP requirement. It is however not cool if that skill enables someone vastly below in terms of stats/gear to deal such dmg to you, it nullifies the effort you put into making your char pwoerful ,and lets face it thats a bitter pill for any of us to swallow.
However the solution to stopping LB SE one shot combos, does not lie in nerfing anything that affects the entire class, and lies soley in making changes to those skills themselves without reducing them to useless. The 2nd part of the issue, and this does not only apply to SE but other dailies, Oppressive, ice knife etc also. Is that nowadays with DC artifact, cloaks and other avenues of AP generation, the frequency of being able to cast powerful dailies is approaching them being just another encounter and this doesnt work well will skills that are general more powerful and not intended for such frequent use. So another solution lies in perhaps dealing with the AP issue.
As for the whole daze argument, its mostly laughable. It has been clearly explained in many threads that although in theory possible..the whole perma daze thing is not entirely viable and rather difficult to achieve. But rather than take this knowledge on board a lot of people persist in whining for scoundrel nerfs and comapring CC to cw's etc.
This really gets my bloody goat, firstly a daze is not really a CC, it is close to an interrupt in the sense that it interrupts you casting, and yes this can be very annoying and in some cases fatal but YOU CAN STILL MOVE. I lose count the number of times i see someone get dazed and they just stop and go GG an give up when often they could quite happily move out of the way to reduce and sometime prevent a lot of the follow up dmg. Yes if theres a smoke bomb you cant dodge, but you can still walk. yes if you get defted from stealth it slows you to ****. but both of these can be either anticipated or reduced by playing smart and in themselves are not lethal.
the number of people who i have seen stand there once BB has been cast on them doing nothing is incredible, dodge, keep dodging you can mitigate a lot of the hits by doing this, tried and tested by myself. So many rogues come out of BB on me wondering why the **** my hp has hardly moved.
In summary, i agree that SE needs addressing, and perhaps some of the feats etc that allow for such a silly increase in dmg% that leads to 40k LBs from pitifully geared ppl. But thats probably it, addressing SE and the stealth reveal will help considerably. Most of the other issues are L2P issues or know you limits issues.
Everyone seems to cry for this mystical pvp balance based on a fantasy of 1v1 balance where each class has exactly an equal chance of beating the other in 1v1. If it were ever achieved, you'd quit because the pvp would be so intensly boring because all class would essential have the same strengths utilities and weakness (theyd have to to ensure they could all counter each other) and thus there wouldnt really be classes, just x number of 'classes' with all the same skills just with different names and gfx effects.
The pvp available to you in the game isnt even 1v1, its 5v5 , 20v20 or open world....so surely it should be balanced to the pvp on offer? in properly balanced pvp there should be classes you can beat easily, classes you find about on a par and classes that beat you easily (nemesis class). And knowing that you should play you freakin class accordingly alongside the other players in your grp.
I have use SE and its dodgeable almost fifity percent of the time that's why I use BB rather than that. And why nobody discuss the bug we have like deft strke that dont strike, ITC that is possible to catch, SS that fails as well. How bout HR as well who can Disable you for very long time with a trapper build. nobody is complaining cause the last they saw to make the kill is TR in close range. they don't count the range allies of the TR.
Or we talk about how ss refills ur stealth even when the enemy dodges it( same with the sabo capstone).
And how is Se dodgeable when you daze ur target first?
Also if u get cought by an Trapper HR, you are just bad or doesnt know how trapper works since 99% of the time those ''insane'' roots bug out when you are in stealth.
The pvp available to you in the game isnt even 1v1, its 5v5 , 20v20 or open world....so surely it should be balanced to the pvp on offer? in properly balanced pvp there should be classes you can beat easily, classes you find about on a par and classes that beat you easily (nemesis class). And knowing that you should play you freakin class accordingly alongside the other players in your grp.
The problem is they are not balanced in terms of 5v5. Have you checked the win ratios? They have too much impact. They lack counters. We get that squishy ranged chars are countered by trs, that's the reason there is stealth. But why do they have so much cc immunity/reduction, speed - this makes them perfectly capable of dealing with their supposed counters - fighter classes as they need cc to have an opportunity to deal damage, and they rarely have enough mobility to catch up. Moreover if they focus on 1v1 why are they so strong in 2v1 or 3v1 - picking chars one by one no one able to interrupt them?
To sum it up we are not asking to make them unable to do their job, what we want is for them to have weakness that people can use to fight back.
1 - The problem here is that a low geared 14k TR can one-shot TANKS with 50k+ HP and 22k+ GS... THAT is a problem. I will not talk about TRs doing DoT till dead or perma stealth. Also, if all Dailies could wipe 75% of HP bar our, would be nice, but it only happens with SE. Most of other dailies can deal a really high burst damage IF the target is debuffed and the caster is buffed. I agree with you, thats what i was kind saying, SE needs fixing any self respecting TR can admit that
2 - The problem is not that "a TR can perma daze" rather than "a TR can daze you till you are dead", givind 0 chance to defend yourself.Again, i agree this is possible. However it is also avoidable or at least survivable with better gear or a bit of practice awareness, it is NOT guaranteed daze into death. I regularly survive this kind of faceroll combo on both my TR and HR if
3 - Want an interrupt?? use GWF's Roar, that is a PURE interrupt. Any other power doing stuns or dazes are CC, like it or not. I am aware of what a pure interrupt is, my HR's disruptive shot is much the same. What i was trying to get at it that you can still MOVE which is a major thing, and if people moved more they would die less. Entangling force is more a full CC imho coz you cant do diddly squat while its on ya, same goes for constricting arrow
4 - While i agree with you that a lot of players just "stop doing a thing", the problem with BB + other feats are that it hits hard for be a multi target Daily.yes BB does hit hard, but as I pointed out its dodgeable, each of those teleport strikes can be dodged, i do it all the time and skillful players do it to me. However if u stand there and take all the hits to the face, yes it hurts...but its no more painful to me than a nice icy rays to the face or ice knife or intimidation crit
5 - Here, the problem is that 1 class can kill 2 or even 3 enemy chars, run away from the fights, pick a potion, and come back to kill rest... that BREAKS the game, like it or not If that were true yes it breaks the game, however its not entirely true to imply that the TR class as a whole can do that, certain builds perhaps can and that might need addressing, what i am opposed to is blanket nerfing whole class or whole feat paths or whole paragon paths when more suitable solutions lie in dealing directly with the problematic ability or feat etc. Like SE for example hell yeah that needs addressing, daze however probably doesnt because it is so much more avoidable.
And takedown was nerfed twice. Damage reduced and CC changed from prone to stun. Oh I can't wait when dazing strike becomes stunning strike like TD has.
well think exec TR was the pvp surprise the devs kept talking about :P, not that sab and scoundrel cant make use of SE, but exec can kill me with lashing as well )
Comments
The only solution other classes can have is wait till a fix. I fought against people of Exodus and Purple Dragon and it was like a piece of cake to slice through them. They only won the match because they had TS while i was on a random group.
The only thing you can do against an TR is set him against a good equipped GF or an good TR Wisperknife scoundrel. Sometimes an healing cleric can do the job too. But CW, HR and GWF are melting like ice in a desert.
Funny isnt? before Mod5 hits live everyone hates TR for being a dumpling class I remember a conversation with one HR "LF3M CW and GWF only NO TR PLEASE!" i send a message and asked why cant a TR join a pvp/pve premade team? and boom welcome to their ignore list.
1.) Piercing damage IS very important, especially in some Dungeons.
2.) Daze have the same affect as a GWF's Takedown or a CW's entangling force, they stun momentarily for about the same duration.
3.) At-Wills SHOULD deal as much damage as possible.
I have played with TR's in VT, CN, and eLoL and let me tell you..they ROCK. If you strip these out, TR's will have NO PLACE in most dungeons. respect them for PvP ONLY.... but dear God let them do what they do SOOOO WELL in PvE.
Its a little different. There is a big difference between being able to fill your AP, press a button (SE) and 1 shot someone. Versus being a contender in PVP.
There is a balance but currently MOST classes actually have fair balance maybe aside from the SW (GF is amazing buff bot just no fun to play). However the TR is on its own level... No class can really compete against that.
You know its broken when you have more than 40k HP and get 1 shot by SE. Dont forget, classes like GWF cant even dodge it at all because their "sprint" only gives a DR boost, but wait! SE ignores all DR.
Just go unstoppable? Oh wait! Ignores DR.
Just stack tenacity - you know that PVP resilience stat that makes all damage do less damage? OH WAIT! Ignores that too!
1) Piercing is irrelevant in dungeons as everyone has now ~25% arm pen.
2) Daze works nowhere near as takedown stun's. Stun duration is affected by deflect, in your case 75%-85% reduction, while daze is NOT.
3) At-wills should NOT do 12-22k dmg like GC, nor CoS should proc piercing dmg multiple times.
I hear ya'. My 18.2k gs CW can daily TWICE in about a minute and some seconds.. I know because I can send 2 ice knives into a dragon that takes only about a minute or so to kill in the WoD
sometimes your on top and sometimes your at the bottom in previous mods rogues got disrespected and humiliated now its our time to collect bodies and pile them up on our K/D list Im aiming for another 1k kills to add to my current 3.6k kills this week and thats solo queue I dont like premade team.
Its just the same with your roar+prone+IBS rotation in the old times right? and way back then we got only 2 dodges and cant kill other class because whiners destroyed rogues and made them assassins who cant kill so dont feel bad its our turn to shine so sit back and enjoy the show.
In case you were not aware, PvE mobs and such are based on Armor Class, as they do not have a "GS". ArP ignores a portion of this.. ArP is important. Fact
Daze can be mitigated by moving away from the TR once you are dazed...with takedown, and Entangling force, you CANNOT move and take more damage is a shorter amount of time. Fact
Like I said, defuff them for PvP, but LEAVE THEM ALONE for PvE.
and again daze CANNOT be mitigated by deflect, you can walk out of smoke bomb and dont stant like a bot sure, but the daze duration gets its full 2.5 seconds effect, 5 if you are scoundrel, while when stuns get deflected they literally last half a second. How's that working similar when ones duration is affected by deflect while other isn't.
You just shouldnt be able to run half the map at 5% hp and hell you shouldnt be able to go stealth at 5% HP.
The way you post this list of TR powers is composed in a way to make people agree with you.
Yet you have beguiled everyone.
No one TR can have all that you listed above.
Only scondrel class has dazes from crits.
Only sab class has fast cooldown
Only Sab and Executioner have peircing damage.
(sab peircing comes when in stealth and is not very high)
(exe peircing comes from capstone feat and is based on half the original damage done so can be very high)
also stealth does not regen in combat while you are being attacked. you have to slot encounters to refill stealth in combat or go sab for feats that refill with any encounter when hit from behind or once
every 15 seconds.
By the way... smoke bomb has a delay before it activates on players. You can walk out of it or escape it with ease. I love how you make it seem like the best skill ever.
Half truth: is not high per hit, but it can be abused with multiple hits from range:)
I have use SE and its dodgeable almost fifity percent of the time that's why I use BB rather than that. And why nobody discuss the bug we have like deft strke that dont strike, ITC that is possible to catch, SS that fails as well. How bout HR as well who can Disable you for very long time with a trapper build. nobody is complaining cause the last they saw to make the kill is TR in close range. they don't count the range allies of the TR.
please stop whining if you loose some pvp-fights. First of all its a question of experience. Look at the pvp board leaders, they got hundreds of games they played. They really know how to play. I met so many CW, GWF an HR who are still hard to kill. They all got something in common: they use unique tactics, they are truly skilled players and most of them got tons of GS.
Of course there are some 11 GS TR who do a lot of kills. But in fact they only can win, when they fight as one team side by side to a skilled DC for example. Most of these wonder TR are easy to be killed 1 on 1.
Be sure...a lot of players are better than you are...always. Go out and practice. Again and again. And someday you find a way to beat so called 'unbeatable players'...
Jol
In that case why does it not apply to rogues? - sure they should go and practice to beat people one on one.But they dont need it because right now they have superior advantage over other classes.
Sure there have been other issues raised and they have been raised both by people with some knowledge of the abilities/skills/feats but also raised by people who clearly (from their posts) are completely ignorant of the function or limits of said spells/feats etc.
Firstly,
I have every class at lvl60 except GF lol poor guy and have played a lot of pvp on some and only dabbled a little on other classes. I chose to do this because I like to know from my own experience how each class works, it roles, it strengths and indeed it limitations.
This not only helps you know how to synergise and cooperate with other classes in pve and pvp, it also helps you figure out how to counter other classes and builds in pvp. I say 'figure out' because sometime you actually have to use your grey matter to solve a problem, it isnt always going to be given free. A lot of people complaining on here simply havent taken the time to do this and would rather just nerf or gimp something until they can beat it without thought, because thats easier.
On the point of SE (and for that matter many other dailies) the problem is in 2 parts. Firstly, SE clearly hits too hard and bypasses too much in terms of defenses. If someone is similarly geared to you then yeah why not have a daily take away 75% of you hp, it s a freaking daily not an at will or encounter, they were by definition meant to be more potent spells, thus the idea of imiting their frequency by AP requirement. It is however not cool if that skill enables someone vastly below in terms of stats/gear to deal such dmg to you, it nullifies the effort you put into making your char pwoerful ,and lets face it thats a bitter pill for any of us to swallow.
However the solution to stopping LB SE one shot combos, does not lie in nerfing anything that affects the entire class, and lies soley in making changes to those skills themselves without reducing them to useless. The 2nd part of the issue, and this does not only apply to SE but other dailies, Oppressive, ice knife etc also. Is that nowadays with DC artifact, cloaks and other avenues of AP generation, the frequency of being able to cast powerful dailies is approaching them being just another encounter and this doesnt work well will skills that are general more powerful and not intended for such frequent use. So another solution lies in perhaps dealing with the AP issue.
As for the whole daze argument, its mostly laughable. It has been clearly explained in many threads that although in theory possible..the whole perma daze thing is not entirely viable and rather difficult to achieve. But rather than take this knowledge on board a lot of people persist in whining for scoundrel nerfs and comapring CC to cw's etc.
This really gets my bloody goat, firstly a daze is not really a CC, it is close to an interrupt in the sense that it interrupts you casting, and yes this can be very annoying and in some cases fatal but YOU CAN STILL MOVE. I lose count the number of times i see someone get dazed and they just stop and go GG an give up when often they could quite happily move out of the way to reduce and sometime prevent a lot of the follow up dmg. Yes if theres a smoke bomb you cant dodge, but you can still walk. yes if you get defted from stealth it slows you to ****. but both of these can be either anticipated or reduced by playing smart and in themselves are not lethal.
the number of people who i have seen stand there once BB has been cast on them doing nothing is incredible, dodge, keep dodging you can mitigate a lot of the hits by doing this, tried and tested by myself. So many rogues come out of BB on me wondering why the **** my hp has hardly moved.
In summary, i agree that SE needs addressing, and perhaps some of the feats etc that allow for such a silly increase in dmg% that leads to 40k LBs from pitifully geared ppl. But thats probably it, addressing SE and the stealth reveal will help considerably. Most of the other issues are L2P issues or know you limits issues.
Everyone seems to cry for this mystical pvp balance based on a fantasy of 1v1 balance where each class has exactly an equal chance of beating the other in 1v1. If it were ever achieved, you'd quit because the pvp would be so intensly boring because all class would essential have the same strengths utilities and weakness (theyd have to to ensure they could all counter each other) and thus there wouldnt really be classes, just x number of 'classes' with all the same skills just with different names and gfx effects.
The pvp available to you in the game isnt even 1v1, its 5v5 , 20v20 or open world....so surely it should be balanced to the pvp on offer? in properly balanced pvp there should be classes you can beat easily, classes you find about on a par and classes that beat you easily (nemesis class). And knowing that you should play you freakin class accordingly alongside the other players in your grp.
Or we talk about how ss refills ur stealth even when the enemy dodges it( same with the sabo capstone).
And how is Se dodgeable when you daze ur target first?
Also if u get cought by an Trapper HR, you are just bad or doesnt know how trapper works since 99% of the time those ''insane'' roots bug out when you are in stealth.
The problem is they are not balanced in terms of 5v5. Have you checked the win ratios? They have too much impact. They lack counters. We get that squishy ranged chars are countered by trs, that's the reason there is stealth. But why do they have so much cc immunity/reduction, speed - this makes them perfectly capable of dealing with their supposed counters - fighter classes as they need cc to have an opportunity to deal damage, and they rarely have enough mobility to catch up. Moreover if they focus on 1v1 why are they so strong in 2v1 or 3v1 - picking chars one by one no one able to interrupt them?
To sum it up we are not asking to make them unable to do their job, what we want is for them to have weakness that people can use to fight back.
2 - The problem is not that "a TR can perma daze" rather than "a TR can daze you till you are dead", givind 0 chance to defend yourself.Again, i agree this is possible. However it is also avoidable or at least survivable with better gear or a bit of practice awareness, it is NOT guaranteed daze into death. I regularly survive this kind of faceroll combo on both my TR and HR if
3 - Want an interrupt?? use GWF's Roar, that is a PURE interrupt. Any other power doing stuns or dazes are CC, like it or not.
I am aware of what a pure interrupt is, my HR's disruptive shot is much the same. What i was trying to get at it that you can still MOVE which is a major thing, and if people moved more they would die less. Entangling force is more a full CC imho coz you cant do diddly squat while its on ya, same goes for constricting arrow
4 - While i agree with you that a lot of players just "stop doing a thing", the problem with BB + other feats are that it hits hard for be a multi target Daily.yes BB does hit hard, but as I pointed out its dodgeable, each of those teleport strikes can be dodged, i do it all the time and skillful players do it to me. However if u stand there and take all the hits to the face, yes it hurts...but its no more painful to me than a nice icy rays to the face or ice knife or intimidation crit
5 - Here, the problem is that 1 class can kill 2 or even 3 enemy chars, run away from the fights, pick a potion, and come back to kill rest... that BREAKS the game, like it or not If that were true yes it breaks the game, however its not entirely true to imply that the TR class as a whole can do that, certain builds perhaps can and that might need addressing, what i am opposed to is blanket nerfing whole class or whole feat paths or whole paragon paths when more suitable solutions lie in dealing directly with the problematic ability or feat etc. Like SE for example hell yeah that needs addressing, daze however probably doesnt because it is so much more avoidable.
Only 21k? That TR was weak. I've been hit for 35k (55k pre-mitigation) from a 24k TR.
it even does twice the dmg of takedown back then lol