WoW rogues are a much easier choice yes but not a better choice.
I've stated this numerous times before in other posts... The MAIN reason people are having such a hard time catching a rogue is Dodge, there used to be a small window where you could connect an attack between dodge rolls and that window has diminished to almost nothing.
its simply not fun trying to hit smth thats not visible + stealth forces to switch to sub par encounters and fks up a lot of skills, if skills would work like in fps with direction instead of target lock it would be better, but thats impossible for technical reasons(limitations of latency and stuff like that)
"Some" of the class mechanics in this game are the main reason I ever took interest in it, Guard ( The way it used to work ) was so refreshing.. finally someone got using a shield correctly, I thought. Active blocking and no more of that garbage %chance to block. Stealth is the same way, a meter to manage and play with during combat without relying on some predictable and staple CD that all rogues will end up using. The changes to stealth you present will do nothing but to cut the class into one playstyle.
that is one of reasons i like action mmorpgs, but i find stealth more annoying than interesting, getting encounters to regenerate it, managing bars etc, i like stealth as a skill that allows me to avoid combat instead of haa haa you cant see me while i hit you
Comparing this game to a shooter isn't far off, this game is an Action MMO and has twitch mechanics for a reason, why is it easy to accept the defensive shooter aspect but not the offensive? No you don't have to aim but that's why dodge gives immunity instead of just mobility.
this is quite wrong, while its closer to fps than the ye old tab targeting bs, there are things in this game that make it impossible to go for fps style(high damage fast combat)
1)crit and deflect - there is no place for RNG in an fps style - you want to do damage - you use skill to hit in the head, you want to oneshot you use slower weapons with low fire rate/accuracy whatever, crit and deflect are the reasons why the damage would be lowered, 1 lucky crit/deflect CAN'T decide a fight, that simple, more hits(bigger sample size) makes it closer to real numbers
2)latency - ppl are playing with up to 300 ping, nobody would seriously play fps with latency like that, and this problem can be only solved by inventing a way to transmit data faster than light
I still must disagree, Gtene aside, PvP was a lot more fun before Tenacity and yes there are more stats, more stats to do the work for you thanks to Tenacity.
Most of this argument is pointless anyways, Tenacity isn't going anywhere and TR stealth mechanic won't be changed.
pvp was fun back then, but tenacity is required cause of gear creep, what stats ppl had in mod 1 and what stats ppl have now, did u have ppl in pvp with 10k power then ? we have 2x more stats now, BiS ppl can be capped on all the stats with diminishing returns and have a ton of power on top of it so damage has grown more than 2x, but health hasnt grown even 2x
and stealth did get changed a few times so whats a few times more
I disagree. Piercing damage is the only thing saboteurs have, remove it, and that tree won't offer anything but one more regen encounter which is bugged and fills only 99% of the stealth bar if you take damage. i agree tho if piercing is removed we have a new round of tests to make cause it changes a lot.
i also think that besides piercing dmg, sabo's have the "easiest permastealth". those last mods perma lovers get to be annoying and contesting v2 or v3 if they are not willing to kill anyone, just cancel a node.
Executioner is mostly ok, they have only one broken feat which gives them 25% arp while stealthed and bugged capstone that may stack multiple times. Oneshots come mostly from First strike, without that class feature it's hard to exceed 25k LB with an average TR of 15-17k GS and greater vorpal. yes but a BiS TR can deal +30k LB and wait for the rest 15k from demise finish the job. Also do you believe that feats like Shadowborn or Last Moments are ok?? I find those numbers very very fat.
Scoundrel, on the other side, gives zero counterplay. Deft Strike is depressing, once you're hit, you're dead unless you're TR or GWF, but GWF only delays inevitable. And saying that this particular path is not built around stealth is just misconception, because scoundrel TRs take two CC encounters to maximize their CC potential. You can build perma using any tree, some are just better for that purpose. True. Zero counter play against some classes, small counterplay against others. (chance of counterplay drops exponentially to trs ability)
I realize that Dazing Strike -> CoS+Piercing hits hard, I feel your pain when you get your HP bar reduced by 75% in one hit, but there's nothing worse then being unable to attack back nor dodge. Remember CW freeze chain from M4? Now realize that current scoundrel is the same, but they have stealth, extremely high deflection and 4 dodges. True.I was able to kill those CWs in mod4 with a visible tr and the same playstyle as now using deft strike. Back then it was hard earned victory now it is stealing candy from a baby.
IMO, all dazes, including dazing strike, should be halved when used on players. Or give CW's CC the same duration on players as it is on mobs, I want that 5 sec entangle to troll the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of PvP. Worth trying it. I suspect that it won't be enough tho.Besides the daze duration the problem is that there are multiple sources of daze, some that proc,others that are on demand.Sometimes interrupting is enough and you don't even care about the daze. I think it will come down to the balance between CC and DPS cause even with half duration dazes, if 1 rotation is enough to kill your opponent that wouldn't change much.
can any of you, players whose are saying that TR-class is fine, explaing it to me?
I am still waiting for that response, particularly from Essence of aggression players defending the TRs.
So far, we've gotten a tirade with a hint of profanity from one of their TRs telling us to "buff our skill" and also another non-answer from one of their other members.
Anyways, if anyone has actual rotations, encounters to use, videos, 1v1s to help the community out, that would be real swell!
its simply not fun trying to hit smth thats not visible + stealth forces to switch to sub par encounters and fks up a lot of skills, if skills would work like in fps with direction instead of target lock it would be better, but thats impossible for technical reasons(limitations of latency and stuff like that)
that is one of reasons i like action mmorpgs, but i find stealth more annoying than interesting, getting encounters to regenerate it, managing bars etc, i like stealth as a skill that allows me to avoid combat instead of haa haa you cant see me while i hit you
this is quite wrong, while its closer to fps than the ye old tab targeting bs, there are things in this game that make it impossible to go for fps style(high damage fast combat)
1)crit and deflect - there is no place for RNG in an fps style - you want to do damage - you use skill to hit in the head, you want to oneshot you use slower weapons with low fire rate/accuracy whatever, crit and deflect are the reasons why the damage would be lowered, 1 lucky crit/deflect CAN'T decide a fight, that simple, more hits(bigger sample size) makes it closer to real numbers
2)latency - ppl are playing with up to 300 ping, nobody would seriously play fps with latency like that, and this problem can be only solved by inventing a way to transmit data faster than light
pvp was fun back then, but tenacity is required cause of gear creep, what stats ppl had in mod 1 and what stats ppl have now, did u have ppl in pvp with 10k power then ? we have 2x more stats now, BiS ppl can be capped on all the stats with diminishing returns and have a ton of power on top of it so damage has grown more than 2x, but health hasnt grown even 2x
and stealth did get changed a few times so whats a few times more
I agree.
I would say stealth USED to operate in a decent manor before the perma stealth builds emerged, TRs played alot more offensively out in the open with less reliance on stealth. The perma stealth idea killed my desire to play TR. I know TRs are squishy if caught which is why I like stealth for defensive utility as well as tactical setup for offense. What it is now just isnt fun.
Also id beuch more in favor of perma stealth if while stealthed you couldnt contest nodes. I think thats part of the issue. Its not just that you can perma its also the type of pvp we have. We dont play slayer or CTF or some type of "assault" we play a stalemate game. Whoever can stalemate the longest wins. If you track all the best builds its always been the best stalemate builds that require 2 people to kill. Thats whats not fun
Back pre module 1 pvp was great. Then with power creep and efficient builds and more people having perfect vorpals, tenacity was needed. Looking back over my videos post tenacity pvp was great too, alot better than todays pvp.we have hit the same issue again. Power creep and more boons with stats have caused an even larger need for more tenacity. People getting 1-2shot all the time now. Its silly.
Just 1.5 pence here.. but I play a TR and a CW in pvp.. as a TR.. its just ridiculous. stealth around..kill something.. stealth again.. rinse, wash repeat. as a cw.. when there are 2 Tr's, and there are ALWAYS 2 Tr's anymore.. they can be mediocre and the stealth all the time ruins it.
Crits during stealth, I get that.. works fine (since I play a TR too of course) but ... for gods sake.. limit the stealth in pvp. it has skewed everything.. to where even playing a TR in pvp is just like farming glory. Devs, if ya do read these.. good lord, look at limiting stealth during pvp. Perhaps make it tick twice as fast or something?
I have to say, while I do play a multitude of characters in NWO, I would not want to see Rogues nerfed into the ground. I will admit though, I do play my Rogue as a PvP Rogue only as I get the most enjoyment out of him in that type of play style (Rogues don't really have a purpose like true DnD dungeons in this game), the developers should look into changing the damage modifiers possibly on several abilities that lets us hit for 21-30k damage ( I have hit several people for 30k in PvP, easily).
I would be happy with a nerf to overall damage on my Rogue but if you taketh, you must giveth, one, the devs should make this an opportunistic class up the timers on stuns and disables but lower our damage. We should have control over a person as a Rogue that give us an advantage not because of our "One hit quit" dynamic, but because of certain scenarios that give us an opportunity "outside" stealth.
Combat advantage comes to mind as something they could experiment with.
I don't know, as it is right now, I won't play any other class outside my Rogue and CW in PvP, due to the extreme advantages they get (SW is close, but you start to see diminishing returns on them as they level up (in PvP, anyways).
I may not be considered by most the BEST PVP Warlock on the server but, I am the most HATED amongst them.
The thing i do not understand is, why is GMC repeating previous mistakes/design flaws? He did the same to CO assassin-builds, 2 years ago. See video for details.
well apparently PVP population in general in this game is a very small % of the population. So I would hardly think anything about PVP is killing the game. People who want ezmode facerolls will always pick the ez win build and farm what they can while they can and switch up when that is no longer viable. Those that prefer a challenge will always get bored and swap to something else.
If you want to talk about what's likely to drop the # of players in the game (PVE and PVP) I'd be willing to bet it's tied to the game being much less alt friendly now with the artifact gear being in weapons, neck and belt slots, it's daunting and/or expensive to setup 1 toon with top gear, let alone alts. So the lack of people having a PVP alt and a PVE alt etc will lead to people getting bored faster and finding other games to play instead. So until they cut down the cost of refining these items to max level, this will continue.
I know several people who enjoyed having one toon setup for PVP and one for PVE as their idea of fun in each was different and that's just not as viable as it was pre mod 5.
Considering the number of people posting both on this forum as well as the one that got moved to the preview forum area, it's obvious that the TR needs addressed. I appreciate all the comments and multiple strategies at balancing the TRs damage. It's good to see that other people support balancing and are trying to bring solutions to the table.
Thanks for your replies.
On ambush rings: "How would you like PVE if all the mobs were invisible?"
its so easy for trs to win fights. As usual the their engagement in a fight is always on their terms. All they do is wait and they will win. Daze and shocking execution, daze and bloodbath. Or proc dazes as scoundrel or proc shadow of demise which still multi procs. Trs have been made into a proc class. Searching for a tr is even harder now because you have to waste your defenses because of the threat of getting one shotted. While no ones defensive mechanic last as long as stealth. Takes way to much skill to get to a 30% chance of winning a tr. All paths of the tr class needs to be address so they aren't overpowered or too weak.
I think anyone with an ounce of common sense has to agree that the current state of the game is lousy?
In the worst days of GWFs or CWs at theere were over 4000 pages of players on the leaderboard.
Actually, no. There were 4000 pages of characters, not players. There is a big difference. For instance, at one point I had 4 toons included in those numbers.
And the big drop in numbers came right after the Mod 4 launch reset, so nothing to do with TRs.
And the big drop in numbers came right after the Mod 4 launch reset, so nothing to do with TRs.
Weeelll nothing and nothing - you know saying its only Trs is a bit much but saying nothing to do with Trs is stretching a bit dont ya think......
I know at least 10 good pvper that stopped and even moved to other games because of Trs in pvp I read quite some threads about others doing the same so lets just say Tr has not made pvp in this game more popular but rather the opposite mkay ;.)....
Weeelll nothing and nothing - you know saying its only Trs is a bit much but saying nothing to do with Trs is stretching a bit dont ya think......
I know at least 10 good pvper that stopped and even moved to other games because of Trs in pvp I read quite some threads about others doing the same so lets just say Tr has not made pvp in this game more popular but rather the opposite mkay ;.)....
i know trs that left for no longer being so op , happen to many people after their classes got nerfed , this broken balance kills the pvp slowly but surely. I dont know why they keep given poison to the game and things are way too repetitive to be random...
Whoever thinks that TRs are fine right now has to be blind.
It just suprises me that even some otherwise rational and decent players show so little game sense for balancing.
THERE IS a reason why in inhouse matches in big pvp guilds, both teams either need a TR or just to agree on not having a TR AT ALL! Because TRs are so imbalanced right now, even pm vs pms are mostly decided by the skill of the involved TRs.
To get the facts straight: TRs were NEVER a bad class for pvp. Even gimped in mod3/4 they were good because of the ability to perma stealth and nearly perma block an enemy node.
Now, a TR can perma stealth, permablock a node, permakill anyone coming near him.
Some may say, there are "super skilled" players who can counter a TR, like mouz, steam, deadshot, sandstorm, inna and so on.
I say: cool story bro, but no! I have witnesses all these players getting beaten by some TRs. It tells you alot when in organized premade matches both TRs have a k/d ratio of 4:1 beeing on enemy home blocking it most of the time. Imagine any other class send to enemy home and what the result would be. You would be lucky to block it 50% and having 1:1 k/d.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited January 2015
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Comments
that is one of reasons i like action mmorpgs, but i find stealth more annoying than interesting, getting encounters to regenerate it, managing bars etc, i like stealth as a skill that allows me to avoid combat instead of haa haa you cant see me while i hit you
this is quite wrong, while its closer to fps than the ye old tab targeting bs, there are things in this game that make it impossible to go for fps style(high damage fast combat)
1)crit and deflect - there is no place for RNG in an fps style - you want to do damage - you use skill to hit in the head, you want to oneshot you use slower weapons with low fire rate/accuracy whatever, crit and deflect are the reasons why the damage would be lowered, 1 lucky crit/deflect CAN'T decide a fight, that simple, more hits(bigger sample size) makes it closer to real numbers
2)latency - ppl are playing with up to 300 ping, nobody would seriously play fps with latency like that, and this problem can be only solved by inventing a way to transmit data faster than light
pvp was fun back then, but tenacity is required cause of gear creep, what stats ppl had in mod 1 and what stats ppl have now, did u have ppl in pvp with 10k power then ? we have 2x more stats now, BiS ppl can be capped on all the stats with diminishing returns and have a ton of power on top of it so damage has grown more than 2x, but health hasnt grown even 2x
and stealth did get changed a few times so whats a few times more
Thanks for your reply
I am still waiting for that response, particularly from Essence of aggression players defending the TRs.
So far, we've gotten a tirade with a hint of profanity from one of their TRs telling us to "buff our skill" and also another non-answer from one of their other members.
Anyways, if anyone has actual rotations, encounters to use, videos, 1v1s to help the community out, that would be real swell!
I agree.
I would say stealth USED to operate in a decent manor before the perma stealth builds emerged, TRs played alot more offensively out in the open with less reliance on stealth. The perma stealth idea killed my desire to play TR. I know TRs are squishy if caught which is why I like stealth for defensive utility as well as tactical setup for offense. What it is now just isnt fun.
Also id beuch more in favor of perma stealth if while stealthed you couldnt contest nodes. I think thats part of the issue. Its not just that you can perma its also the type of pvp we have. We dont play slayer or CTF or some type of "assault" we play a stalemate game. Whoever can stalemate the longest wins. If you track all the best builds its always been the best stalemate builds that require 2 people to kill. Thats whats not fun
Back pre module 1 pvp was great. Then with power creep and efficient builds and more people having perfect vorpals, tenacity was needed. Looking back over my videos post tenacity pvp was great too, alot better than todays pvp.we have hit the same issue again. Power creep and more boons with stats have caused an even larger need for more tenacity. People getting 1-2shot all the time now. Its silly.
Crits during stealth, I get that.. works fine (since I play a TR too of course) but ... for gods sake.. limit the stealth in pvp. it has skewed everything.. to where even playing a TR in pvp is just like farming glory. Devs, if ya do read these.. good lord, look at limiting stealth during pvp. Perhaps make it tick twice as fast or something?
I would be happy with a nerf to overall damage on my Rogue but if you taketh, you must giveth, one, the devs should make this an opportunistic class up the timers on stuns and disables but lower our damage. We should have control over a person as a Rogue that give us an advantage not because of our "One hit quit" dynamic, but because of certain scenarios that give us an opportunity "outside" stealth.
Combat advantage comes to mind as something they could experiment with.
I don't know, as it is right now, I won't play any other class outside my Rogue and CW in PvP, due to the extreme advantages they get (SW is close, but you start to see diminishing returns on them as they level up (in PvP, anyways).
-Kymos
Yup, this pretty much sums up what am doing in PvP, I 1-2 Global someone, run off and hide, re-stealth and repeat.
You would think that this would have been noticed by now though.
-Kymos
How was it fixed in CO? Maybe the same fix would work also in NWO.
probably the same as Threating Rush, with a cooldown on it.
In the worst days of GWFs or CWs at theere were over 4000 pages of players on the leaderboard.
With EVERY single match being minimum 4 TRs you either play a TR or just quit.
Cryptic , your bad game balance is killing your game.
If you want to talk about what's likely to drop the # of players in the game (PVE and PVP) I'd be willing to bet it's tied to the game being much less alt friendly now with the artifact gear being in weapons, neck and belt slots, it's daunting and/or expensive to setup 1 toon with top gear, let alone alts. So the lack of people having a PVP alt and a PVE alt etc will lead to people getting bored faster and finding other games to play instead. So until they cut down the cost of refining these items to max level, this will continue.
I know several people who enjoyed having one toon setup for PVP and one for PVE as their idea of fun in each was different and that's just not as viable as it was pre mod 5.
my $.02 keep the change.
Thanks for your replies.
And the big drop in numbers came right after the Mod 4 launch reset, so nothing to do with TRs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Weeelll nothing and nothing - you know saying its only Trs is a bit much but saying nothing to do with Trs is stretching a bit dont ya think......
I know at least 10 good pvper that stopped and even moved to other games because of Trs in pvp I read quite some threads about others doing the same so lets just say Tr has not made pvp in this game more popular but rather the opposite mkay ;.)....
i know trs that left for no longer being so op
It just suprises me that even some otherwise rational and decent players show so little game sense for balancing.
THERE IS a reason why in inhouse matches in big pvp guilds, both teams either need a TR or just to agree on not having a TR AT ALL! Because TRs are so imbalanced right now, even pm vs pms are mostly decided by the skill of the involved TRs.
To get the facts straight: TRs were NEVER a bad class for pvp. Even gimped in mod3/4 they were good because of the ability to perma stealth and nearly perma block an enemy node.
Now, a TR can perma stealth, permablock a node, permakill anyone coming near him.
Some may say, there are "super skilled" players who can counter a TR, like mouz, steam, deadshot, sandstorm, inna and so on.
I say: cool story bro, but no! I have witnesses all these players getting beaten by some TRs. It tells you alot when in organized premade matches both TRs have a k/d ratio of 4:1 beeing on enemy home blocking it most of the time. Imagine any other class send to enemy home and what the result would be. You would be lucky to block it 50% and having 1:1 k/d.
Many posts have been removed. If one cannot express their concerns, opinions, feedback, and have discussions without profanities, rude remarks, and other rule violations, then please do not post on our forums. Please read the Rules of Conduct and adhere to them. Smack talk won't be tolerated here.
Due to how much had to be removed, many legitimate posts were also removed due to being a part of the conversation tied to the rule violations. Folks, just ignore rule violators and report them to us via the Post Report feature (small grey triangle at the bottom left of any post).
Please do not reply to this notice, for doing so is not allowed. Instead, contact us via Private Message to discuss forum moderation. Thanks!
Safe travels,
Archmage Zebular of Mystryl
PWE Community Moderator
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