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Probable TR Stealth upcoming changes: discuss (in a civil way please)

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  • group5egroup5e Member Posts: 294 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    and thank again to mention again that TR is OP in this mod
    L2P issues? then please tell me how the tactic..? pick the best class you think more efficient to counter TR in this current condition? not TR vs TR or TR vs DC issues.. i talking about equal GS and experince.. give me something make sense
    if you wanna discusion give something like math calculation, vid, screen shot don't just blabering nonsense again and again with rage because your class will getting nerf, i think you need to check up you blood presurre this is game you know and health is priority LOL

    There are plenty of statements in your argument that don't make a lot of sense. I don't agree with kweassa on much... but on this one... he is bang on. You bring up deflection as if its a special thing to TR's alone....

    I've have both an HR and TR... and the ability an HR has to heal constantly is absolutely nuts. When facing a strong HR in pvp... they are real tough and if I'm not careful I'm dead real fast.

    How I interpreted your statements are... "I used to be able to beat on TR's... but now I can't... therefore, they should be nerfed." Its funny because as an HR, you have some great abilities to kill TR's :P... more so than a lot of other classes.

    Also, do you play a TR in the game? Or are you just coming into our class forum to complain? Seems to me you can't possibly play a TR as you don't really understand the fundamental mechanics of the class and why some things are so necessary.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    to be clear here you need to read my history post.. i was not ask to nerf TR stealth.. i was complain about 100% crit change and 75 defl sev..
    it's was dev decision for now because dev don't wanna take away TR damage dan survivabilty instead wanna nerf stealth mekanic
    why would Dev do this? here my opinion
    with this change there are no longer 1 rotate burst of crit.. you can have 100%crit change+ combat advantage but only in first ambush attack.. after that you need to roll or ITC and not hit your target in 2s if you want to land 100%crit change+combat advantage strike again
    so there will be no 1 rotate build burst crit with no invest of crit stat and max it to power and arpen, and there will be more time space from other class to counter attack
    you can hate me all you want.. because I DON'T CARE and it's not gonna help you defend your class.. give something that can make dev change his mind LOL
  • mat44444mat44444 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi Piejal

    With all due respect you seem to be reading a different thing to me - I read devs were trying out a TR hits you, you see them for 2 seconds thing in PVP. How exactly do you get to - only crits in first ambush? As I understand it, the TR is still in stealth, hence still gaining Crits. Perhaps its me

    All the best
    Matthew
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mat44444 wrote: »
    Hi Piejal

    With all due respect you seem to be reading a different thing to me - I read devs were trying out a TR hits you, you see them for 2 seconds thing in PVP. How exactly do you get to - only crits in first ambush? As I understand it, the TR is still in stealth, hence still gaining Crits. Perhaps its me

    All the best
    Matthew

    i don't know for sure because i am not test it yet.. but it's make sense.. you cannot be in stealth mode and have combat advantage if the target you strike can see you right?
    at least you are not in stealth mode from the one you strike
    this just my opinion about how dev wanna change things
  • isuuck2isuuck2 Member Posts: 491 Bounty Hunter
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    i don't know for sure because i am not test it yet.. but it's make sense.. you cannot be in stealth mode and have combat advantage if the target you strike can see you right? this just my opinion about how dev wanna change things
    gof back to the dev's post. He states that the tr's will still be gaining their buff's from stealth afk 100% crit chance.
  • mat44444mat44444 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi again

    Sorry Piejal - but no, TR still gets full stealth advantages, just gets seen by people he attacks. Well and people other TR's attack which is the bit I find silly

    All the best
    Matthew
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mat44444 wrote: »
    Hi again

    Sorry Piejal - but no, TR still gets full stealth advantages, just gets seen by people he attacks. Well and people other TR's attack which is the bit I find silly

    All the best
    Matthew
    oh yeah my mistake..
    so there will be still 1 rotate crit build with not stacking crit stat and max it to pow and arpen.. just Lame
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    oh yeah my mistake..
    so there will be still 1 rotate crit build with not stacking crit stat and max it to pow and arpen.. just Lame

    it's not 1 rotation critted, it's one encounter.
    you may talk about CWs tho
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    it's not 1 rotation critted, it's one encounter.
    you may talk about CWs tho

    why 1 encounter? when the stealth is not depleted it can be 1 rotate 3 encounter damage..

    yes this was what i suggest from the start
    change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev or 2*crit change (include CW eye strom) so there no more pow and arpen build without stacking crit statm if you wanna do crit damage you need to stack the stat
    change +25% deflc sev with +5% deflc sev each enemy around 15 feet max 25% or +25% DR when deflec so no +25% control resist
    make stealth leave footprint at least when step on the node (include HR)
    no more doing nothing and cap the node, in this condition target locking skill cannot touch stealth only AOE and some spesific atwill

    but Dev who have the right to make how the change go, i just suggest
  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    why 1 encounter? when the stealth is not depleted it can be 1 rotate 3 encounter damage..

    yes this was what i suggest from the start
    change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev or 2*crit change (include CW eye strom) so there no more pow and arpen build without stacking crit statm if you wanna do crit damage you need to stack the stat
    change +25% deflc sev with +5% deflc sev each enemy around 15 feet max 25% or +25% DR when deflec so no +25% control resist
    make stealth leave footprint at least when step on the node (include HR)
    no more doing nothing and cap the node, in this condition target locking skill cannot touch stealth only AOE and some spesific atwill

    but Dev who have the right to make how the change go, i just suggest

    encounters deplete stealth
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    oh yeah my mistake..
    so there will be still 1 rotate crit build with not stacking crit stat and max it to pow and arpen.. just Lame
    piejal wrote: »
    why 1 encounter? when the stealth is not depleted it can be 1 rotate 3 encounter damage..

    yes this was what i suggest from the start
    change 100% crit change with 40% crit sev or 2*crit change (include CW eye strom) so there no more pow and arpen build without stacking crit statm if you wanna do crit damage you need to stack the stat
    change +25% deflc sev with +5% deflc sev each enemy around 15 feet max 25% or +25% DR when deflec so no +25% control resist
    make stealth leave footprint at least when step on the node (include HR)
    no more doing nothing and cap the node, in this condition target locking skill cannot touch stealth only AOE and some spesific atwill

    but Dev who have the right to make how the change go, i just suggest

    I usually try to stay away from the "nerf that" / "buff that" arguments.
    Please, if you want to really give a significant opinion / feedback on an entire class and even not on a single bugged/distruptive skill at least play that class and have a minimal understanding of it. There is a double XP week coming, I suggest you roll a TR, go meet a good premade and then lets discuss balance with some meaning and perhaps reasonable ideas that closer to reality.

    And as been said, all encounters except SS (insignificant damage) and B&S (no damage at all) remove from stealth completely. Sabo can reenter stealth with feats.
    At-wills except GC deplete 15% stealth (% from base) per hit.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan wrote: »
    encounters deplete stealth

    oh i see.. so TR atwill is that hurt my mistake
  • jessieflorajessieflora Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 21 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I agree. Give us ITC as our tab ability, rename it Improved Evasion, and I'd be happy.

    rayrdan I trust you weren’t being sarcastic

    ‘ that is the point, the proposed fix is not to counter permastealth but to counter stealth.
    result: you are in stealth but you are visible. ahahaha
    you know what? take stealth away and gimme a new tab.’

    because I too think it is a good idea. It’s stealth that causes all the PvP complaints yet things like Unstoppable are perfectly acceptable. Evasion sounds great. Why not get rid of Stealth and replace with Evasion ? It would be easier to compare with other class mechanics and although would mean a huge re-work of TRs again for Devs I suspect more likely to arrive at a place acceptable to PvP. Stealth seems to be misunderstood.
  • mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    oh i see.. so TR atwill is that hurt my mistake

    Why are you in our class forum when you don't know anything about the class?
    Go away.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
  • crusherbeastcrusherbeast Member Posts: 426 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    rayrdan I trust you weren’t being sarcastic

    ‘ that is the point, the proposed fix is not to counter permastealth but to counter stealth.
    result: you are in stealth but you are visible. ahahaha
    you know what? take stealth away and gimme a new tab.’

    because I too think it is a good idea. It’s stealth that causes all the PvP complaints yet things like Unstoppable are perfectly acceptable. Evasion sounds great. Why not get rid of Stealth and replace with Evasion ? It would be easier to compare with other class mechanics and although would mean a huge re-work of TRs again for Devs I suspect more likely to arrive at a place acceptable to PvP. Stealth seems to be misunderstood.

    Are you serious? Then the only class that would have stealth in this game would be HR-the class that should have never have it. Stealth is not the problem. Problem is that devs delete every thread against CW or other op classes and support anti-TR threads. There are many examples for that. Simple pattern I've seen numerous times:Thread about class being unfair strong in pvp starts->few trolls come to destroy thread->thread gets closed. And another example:Thread against TR starts->few trolls come to destroy that thread->devs ,,cleanse'' thread of those posts and let discussion continue. That is very repeatable and perfect example of double standards.
    Also another thing is that when CW was unfair strong for entire mod 4 all you could hear that you have to play better than CW to have chance to kill them. Now that TR is balanced CW cry everywhere because they don't want to learn how to counter TR, they prefer to destroy class so they can play in easy mode again. Hypocrisy of those people is unlimited.
    And last but not least, is one person who was shining like a star with his class when it was so unfair strong that few hundred page thread wouldn't cover it's ridiculousness. Now that TR can finally kill HR he comes here and cries. These players don't care about balance, they don't care either about learning how to counter class, they prefer chaos on forum and threads of demands to destroy other class.
    Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools)
    Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
    Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
  • asmose01asmose01 Member Posts: 43 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I think its pretty sad that "stealth" all ways brings the cry babies to the yard! weather I am on my TR in domination or my SW ah CW can come out of no where and with 3 spells drop my *** regardless of weather I am on my TR full profound at 25k hp or my SW at 32k VT set. Lets not forget the HR that I can't even touch that is slashing the HAMSTER outah me while "stealth" IMO hunters never should of been given this ability and yes I do have a hunter.

    How about instead of focusing on just the TR stealth mechanic they re-work how the whole pvp system works:
    1 remove prones and introduce 3s stuns
    2 put a damage suppression on all daily abilities across the board (In PVP)
    3 reduce area of effect distance for all class's
    4 reduce range attacks for all class's
    5 make it so the GF GWF HR and any future class can't just blindly swing there weapon so they are on equal footing with TR's
    6 make it so when you enter a battle ground GS/Tan is taken into consideration so peeps with 3k are not grouped with 18+K (yes this did happen to me)
    7 . . . well I am sure we could all go on for ever, my point is TR seems to be the scapegoat for all things PVP and end up suffering for it in PVE which makes the class until recently very one sided and undesirable to play in a group outside of PVP
  • mat44444mat44444 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi asmose01

    I think your comments have a good degree of truth - the trouble with stealth is that people have to think to counter it, and most just want to mash some buttons and kill things. So if you speak to some people they really enjoy fighting against TR, other just hate it.

    Two examples for you - one of my TR's a 14K scoundrel against 25K GWF, lots of fun, we both enjoyed the fights and he walloped me good every time. Which is reasonable consider GS difference, but both of us passed the time enjoyably and left upon friendly terms.

    My other TR a SAB who out GS opposing team - standing on a pillar out of stealth by middle node spamming COS at four of the opposing team. All of them running around node trying to find perma TR until I killed each of them. I got called everything - but I was in plain sight all the time, but no one ever thought to look up. Result - most of my team laughing their heads off, opposing team sulking over OP TR run like wind, who one shot at least three of them; in their minds at least. Totally unfair fighting of course - devs should ban TR's. Result - boring time for all, and bad taste left in the mouth for all. And who's fault is it? Mine obviously for being a perma one shot TR

    I generally enjoy playing a TR since I started playing the game - so roughly six months ago, and have always played a WK. So yeah you see I just love playing the OP class that requires no skill.

    My point is - it's just people being people, and TR's are an easy target/scapegoat, you cant see them after all, so they probably cant hear you (LOL)

    Have a fun game
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mat44444 wrote: »
    Hi asmose01

    I think your comments have a good degree of truth - the trouble with stealth is that people have to think to counter it, and most just want to mash some buttons and kill things. So if you speak to some people they really enjoy fighting against TR, other just hate it.

    Two examples for you - one of my TR's a 14K scoundrel against 25K GWF, lots of fun, we both enjoyed the fights and he walloped me good every time. Which is reasonable consider GS difference, but both of us passed the time enjoyably and left upon friendly terms.

    My other TR a SAB who out GS opposing team - standing on a pillar out of stealth by middle node spamming COS at four of the opposing team. All of them running around node trying to find perma TR until I killed each of them. I got called everything - but I was in plain sight all the time, but no one ever thought to look up. Result - most of my team laughing their heads off, opposing team sulking over OP TR run like wind, who one shot at least three of them; in their minds at least. Totally unfair fighting of course - devs should ban TR's. Result - boring time for all, and bad taste left in the mouth for all. And who's fault is it? Mine obviously for being a perma one shot TR

    I generally enjoy playing a TR since I started playing the game - so roughly six months ago, and have always played a WK. So yeah you see I just love playing the OP class that requires no skill.

    My point is - it's just people being people, and TR's are an easy target/scapegoat, you cant see them after all, so they probably cant hear you (LOL)

    Have a fun game

    Many time every TR just saying about to l2p issue just tell me how? I already asking this 4 time but no one can give me reasonable tactic againt TR just TR vs TR thing that useless
    that's the point 14k GS should not be able ti give a fight with 25k GWF rigth?
  • nezyrworksnezyrworks Member Posts: 75
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    Many time every TR just saying about to l2p issue just tell me how? I already asking this 4 time but no one can give me reasonable tactic againt TR just TR vs TR thing that useless
    that's the point 14k GS should not be able ti give a fight with 25k GWF rigth?

    You should base on your skills not GS which is not equal. You can buy whatever you like for cash and still suck to a 3k GS one handed brainless mutant class if one is played by an experienced player.

    How to learn? Practice. Read. Listen. Use brain! Duel for hours upon hours. Start using artifacts for your advantage.
  • mat44444mat44444 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi Piejal

    I am sorry but I don't really understand your comment - why should a 14K Tr not be able to fight against a 25K GWF?

    My comments in short - 14K TR fights against a 25K GWF and loses every time (pretty sure I was one shot killed upon more than one occasion)

    Your comment - 14K TR should not be able to fight 25K GWF - So what should happen, TR just falls over dead without GWF doing anything? TR encounter, at will stop working so GWF can just kill TR when he feels like it. What exactly should happen?

    Your comments make no sense - should all out geared scored players just fall over dead without any action from anyone?

    Please be reasonable in your remarks

    My best to you
  • mirkraagmirkraag Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    I am totally agree with you mat.

    If a lower GS score has no chance against a high one than why are we actually play PvP ? Just add the GS of each member of the team and you can automaticaly have the winner, no need to fight !
  • mat44444mat44444 Member Posts: 116 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    Hi Milkurmom

    I have a couple of TR's - one is for example 14K GS, this has never one shot killed anything, or one shot damaged for 36,000 HP's. So perhaps I just have a rubbish build, or perhaps your TR friend has perfect Vor or something. I can assure you none of my TR's can hit for such a large amount of actual damage. So what did your mate do exactly to hit for this 36K?

    Thanks in advance
    Matthew
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mat44444 wrote: »
    Hi Milkurmom

    I have a couple of TR's - one is for example 14K GS, this has never one shot killed anything, or one shot damaged for 36,000 HP's. So perhaps I just have a rubbish build, or perhaps your TR friend has perfect Vor or something. I can assure you none of my TR's can hit for such a large amount of actual damage. So what did your mate do exactly to hit for this 36K?

    Thanks in advance
    Matthew

    Don't bother. He's not gonna provide any "proof", since more than half of these 'anecdotes' coming from the whiners are nothing but a bunch of jumbled up 'impressions' based on biased memory. He's just gonna argue that he saw it happen, and he's not lying about it.

    Wonder of wonders. :rolleyes:
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    Don't bother. He's not gonna provide any "proof", since more than half of these 'anecdotes' coming from the whiners are nothing but a bunch of jumbled up 'impressions' based on biased memory. He's just gonna argue that he saw it happen, and he's not lying about it.

    Wonder of wonders. :rolleyes:

    There are many proof before vid and screen shot about how TR become OP
    if not why would dev planning to nerf TR
    the one that blabering nonsense about this TR fine thing is you my brother

    What i mean is 15k TR can hold 25k GS other class with cheese mekanic
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    There are many proof before vid and screen shot about how TR become OP
    if not why would dev planning to nerf TR
    the one that blabering nonsense about this TR fine thing is you my brother

    What i mean is 15k TR can hold 25k GS other class with cheese mekanic

    Some nerve you have.

    For someone whose been speaking nonsense about the TR, without even knowing how stealth/related mechanics work, that's some gall claiming that I'm 'blabbering nonsense'.

    Nice to see you come back, I see your embarassment has worn off, heh?

    What i mean is 15k TR can hold 25k GS other class with cheese mekanic

    Prove it.

    Vids. Pics. Anything. I don't trust someone who yammered about how TRs are OP, without even having basic knowledge of what the class is like, such as 'encounters consume stealth'. For all we know, you're probably speaking about TRs with another foolish, incorrect notion born out of malinformation.

    So, prove your claim, or gtfo.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    Some nerve you have.

    For someone whose been speaking nonsense about the TR, without even knowing how stealth/related mechanics work, that's some gall claiming that I'm 'blabbering nonsense'.

    Nice to see you come back, I see your embarassment has worn off, heh?




    Prove it.

    Vids. Pics. Anything. I don't trust someone who yammered about how TRs are OP, without even having basic knowledge of what the class is like, such as 'encounters consume stealth'. For all we know, you're probably speaking about TRs with another foolish, incorrect notion born out of malinformation.

    So, prove your claim, or gtfo.

    I already saying i don't care LOL
    no need to drag a debate again
    the point is TR getting nerf for sure End of story LOL
  • mjytreszmjytresz Member Posts: 500 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    piejal wrote: »
    I already saying i don't care LOL
    no need to drag a debate again
    the point is TR getting nerf for sure End of story LOL

    TR needs to be nerfed.
    Then again, so did CW for the last 3 epics. The only problem is that the influx of TR-related tears in a few weeks trumps the CW-related tears in 3 mods.
    The problem is that TR isn't being nerfed in a logical manner. Permastealth has been prevalent for 3 mods now. The only change is:

    1) It's easier to maintain that stealth and
    2) We're doing a lot more damage

    So far the problem isn't "I've been killed by an invisible man", the problem is "I've been killed by an invisible man doing an insane amount of damage".
    It isn't hard to see that the damage we're putting out is the problem. Yet, our unique mechanic is being nerfed. Know what's funny?

    1) You can follow a TR in stealth
    2) You can't really do anything when a CW is controlling you from 100-0
    3) You can't really do anything when a DC is healing off all your damage
    4) You can't really do anything when a GF is blocking all your damage

    The problem isn't stealth, it's the damage. Yet, instead of nerfing the damage, they nerf stealth. This is a very backwards *** approach to the real problem. In fact, as I posted in another thread, this still won't stop the dedicated TRs from totally destroying teams because, as far as the patch notes reveal, our damage is still untouched.

    I'm curious to know how 2 seconds of sight is going to benefit you when you're crying about being one-shotted by LB.
    Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?

    Go Cryptic!
    PS - I quit.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited December 2014
    mjytresz wrote: »
    TR needs to be nerfed.
    Then again, so did CW for the last 3 epics. The only problem is that the influx of TR-related tears in a few weeks trumps the CW-related tears in 3 mods.
    The problem is that TR isn't being nerfed in a logical manner. Permastealth has been prevalent for 3 mods now. The only change is:

    1) It's easier to maintain that stealth and
    2) We're doing a lot more damage

    So far the problem isn't "I've been killed by an invisible man", the problem is "I've been killed by an invisible man doing an insane amount of damage".
    It isn't hard to see that the damage we're putting out is the problem. Yet, our unique mechanic is being nerfed. Know what's funny?

    1) You can follow a TR in stealth
    2) You can't really do anything when a CW is controlling you from 100-0
    3) You can't really do anything when a DC is healing off all your damage
    4) You can't really do anything when a GF is blocking all your damage

    The problem isn't stealth, it's the damage. Yet, instead of nerfing the damage, they nerf stealth. This is a very backwards *** approach to the real problem. In fact, as I posted in another thread, this still won't stop the dedicated TRs from totally destroying teams because, as far as the patch notes reveal, our damage is still untouched.

    I'm curious to know how 2 seconds of sight is going to benefit you when you're crying about being one-shotted by LB.

    Follow TR in stealth mode? You mean guessing TR move in 360 degree angle?
    CW still can be killed when their rotate end we can counter attack or even strike first
    you can prone or stun DC and it's still can be killed even it's hard
    for GF is simple slip behind them
    In TR case ambush first attack will be owned by TR after attack TR will just roll roll and going stealth again then there we go another ambush again
    stop blabering nonsense
    about one shot read dev tracker it's being nerf you know?
    I am not gonna argue again about TR is fine or not, the discussion is about what to be nerf in TR
    you need to move on
  • zebularzebular Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 15,270 Community Moderator
    edited December 2014
    Please use the sticky folks. There's no reason to have multiple threads on this. It does no good for the devs to have multiple topics with feedback all over the place. Look before you post and post in the proper existing threads and forums. Thanks!

    Safe travels,
    Archmage Zebular of Mystryl

    PWE Community Moderator
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