...except that with the proposed changes, it will also allow struck targets to see every other TR as well. One TR running in and using Path Of The Blade would essentially give every struck target True Sight against every other rogue, regardless of their distance or what they were doing.
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
I am ok with nerf all class mekanic but TR need to give away their 100% crit change and have cooldown on stealth
but believe me your nonsense suggest is just not gonna happen
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
I have no idea why this is being directed towards me at all.
You do realise that I was saying the change was a bad thing? Right?
I am ok with nerf all class mekanic but TR need to give away their 100% crit change and have cooldown on stealth
but believe me your nonsense suggest is just not gonna happen
Remember in Mod....any mod before now when TR only had 2 stealth refills and staying in stealth 100% was a day-dream?
Remember when you were crying for a stealth CD then? Neither do I.
Stealth has a cooldown. It's called refilling the stealth meter. Same way block, heal, and cc all have a cooldown.
What's more of a threat? The TR running around in ITC with ridiculous damage or the guy throwing daggers in stealth from 20m off?
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Remember in Mod....any mod before now when TR only had 2 stealth refills and staying in stealth 100% was a day-dream?
Remember when you were crying for a stealth CD then? Neither do I.
Stealth has a cooldown. It's called refilling the stealth meter. Same way block, heal, and cc all have a cooldown.
What's more of a threat? The TR running around in ITC with ridiculous damage or the guy throwing daggers in stealth from 20m off?
ok let's disscus about tab mekanic
first you mistaken refilling stealth meter as cooldown, this refilling stealth meter mekanic is duration effect stealth that i think is cheese too
cooldown is range time when you can use skill after u used it, so it's no spawnable just like when you use encounter skill, non cooldown skill is like atwill skill
TR can freely in and out stealth mode as spawnable skill
let's compare tab mekanic with other class, for example
GWF = before GWF can aktif unstopable they need to take hit first and the bar draining if not use, have limited short time, it can be counter even can be killed when in unstopble condition
GF = can be countered just need to slip behind them
HR = every power skill have limitation if you range type then your melee stance will be buff or non damage skill and if you melee type your range stance will be buff or non damage skill, if both skill are damage skill then there nothing spesial in both stance
you can't compare other class mekanic that have limitation, that why i think this limitation that dev think about need to be implement well i even think 3-4s is ok, if you hit you need to show your face
the first attack will be owened by TR with their ambush, TR stealth mekanic can't be countered because you don't know where and when TR will come, even the damage come you still cannot see TR to countered him, i think this change is important so other class can countered TR at least when they attaked us
don't forget about 100% crit change and almost imune when deflec
I do agree that if it is 2 seconds, stealth depletion should go/ get reworked.
What i suppose should happen is that the TR attacks from stealth either dealing huge initial damage or applying DoT, is visible for 2 seconds and must defend/ dodge, which is possible, then goes back to stealth.
1 second means you attack, roll away and then you are back to stealth, basically. Which would be the same as now.
I don't play TR (have a low level alt on another account but just started it for fun, don't have time to play it), but pretty much all the PvP TRs i meet are visible for like 0.2 seconds or not visible at all while dealing huge DPS as either spike damage or DoT.
What should happen is you attack from stealth, if i know you're there i try to anticipate your rotation and dodge it. Then you are visible for 2 seconds and it's your turn to run, my turn to attack.
There are options to defend yourself like the shadow clones, dazes, ITC, dodge rolls exc...during those 2 seconds.
I think the idea behind the changes is good. As crush said, it's not final, need to test it when it goes live, then see how stuff can be combined to create a balanced scenario where other classes have their turn to target the TR and attack.
Cause right now it's pretty much a one-sided fight where the TR dictates the pace and the enemy must try to grab a perhaps 0.2s chance to catch the TR. PvP TRs can also usually stand a rotation now.
If then to balance TRs need more DR or more HPs it could be done. But what must go is the absolute defense we see now, where pretty much the TR is always either in stealth out of reach, or rolling in immunity, or in ITC immunity, or you are dazed.
Talking about full potential.
Should be hit-run tactics but while now it's super easy to run back into stealth leaving no room for counter attacks, in the future it should require also more proactive play to dodge attacks from enemies who can actually target you, and make it a real battle. Like every class, once you land your rotation (from stealth in your case) you are actually open to counterattacks.
I'd say 2 seconds after dealing damage, but no stealth depletion upon attacking. Would be probably too much.
But 2 seconds to counter attack are much better than a tiny 0.2 seconds during which you might barely see the TR zooming near you while in stealth and the rolling away somewhere.
...except that with the proposed changes, it will also allow struck targets to see every other TR as well. One TR running in and using Path Of The Blade would essentially give every struck target True Sight against every other rogue, regardless of their distance or what they were doing.
That's not stated anywhere. I think it is limited to the TR attacking and the target. The guy you attack will see you for 2 seconds.
quote "As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well"
This just plainly makes some TR paths unplayable, the Daze, deflect TR will continue as now. The Sab's who have low mobility, low deflect and rely solely upon stealth for defence will be the only one to suffer. Basically The deflect TR attacks sprints away, the Slow Sab is left stuck in the open without a defence. Oh but of course I forgot, all TR's can run like wind, have 50% plus deflect and 1 shot anything = so yeah no problems. Real reality expect a lot of TR's sitting at campfire to collect AD for daily because they are fed up being killed by other peoples mistakes, but then I guess you will all be happy playing 5v4
Your comments just show how badly you mis-understand the suggested changes
If its as you say a 2 sec vis against target attacked only PVP - fine sounds like a good idea, but it is not, is it? And if this effects PVE then in reality lets just go back to our old TR's please. At least they had a defence in PVE
A question for you all - how does the TR know who can and cannot see them - because anyone who has been attack by any TR can, which basically makes any TR tactics null and void. Starting to get the picture!
first you mistaken refilling stealth meter as cooldown, this refilling stealth meter mekanic is duration effect stealth that i think is cheese too
Yea, it does work like a cooldown.
You press the button, use the effect, and when the effect ends, you can't use the skill until the meter is full again. It's literally a cooldown. The only difference is there are certain mechanics to refill this stealth meter.
Remember in Mod 4 when a TR actually could stay in stealth for a long time and you had no sight of him? Remember when you were complaining about it then? Neither do I.
The stealth mechanic isn't the problem, it's the damage.
That's why you're complaining. You're just taking a backwards *** approach to fixing it by trying to stab TRs where it really hurts - survivability.
cooldown is range time when you can use skill after u used it, so it's no spawnable just like when you use encounter skill, non cooldown skill is like atwill skill
TR can freely in and out stealth mode as spawnable skill
Yea, no we can't.
If I could press Tab to leave stealth, that'd be a direct buff and you'd be whining even harder.
let's compare tab mekanic with other class, for example
GWF = before GWF can aktif unstopable they need to take hit first and the bar draining if not use, have limited short time, it can be counter even can be killed when in unstopble condition
Actually, no.
GWF has a Feat to increase the gauge when dealing damage. At that, it only decreases if you're out of combat for an extended period of time.
Also, TR can be killed while stealthed. Happened plenty of times to me.
HR = every power skill have limitation if you range type then your melee stance will be buff or non damage skill and if you melee type your range stance will be buff or non damage skill, if both skill are damage skill then there nothing spesial in both stance
you can't compare other class mekanic that have limitation, that why i think this limitation that dev think about need to be implement well i even think 3-4s is ok, if you hit you need to show your face
I can compare it.
Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth builds before now?
That question was rhetorical. Here's the answer: survivability.
Granted, DC survivability was also a problem, even with heals. However, DC served a vital team role, even with a tanky build. TR is the staple assassin class - kill it quick and dip. TR has naturally low survivability. It's possible to make a TR that's pretty tanky but that's done at the expense of killing power. TR moved towards permastealth builds because we're naturally squishy and stealth was the perfect mechanic to increase survivability. High int and recovery stats didn't compromise our damage but also added to our survivability. It was the obvious choice.
Like I said, the stealth mechanic isn't your problem. It's the damage.
If we had Mod 4 TR damage with Mod 5 stealth capabilities, you wouldn't be crying like this.
the first attack will be owened by TR with their ambush, TR stealth mekanic can't be countered because you don't know where and when TR will come, even the damage come you still cannot see TR to countered him, i think this change is important so other class can countered TR at least when they attaked us
I probably sound like a broken record by now but remember when TR was doing this for nearly 4 mods and no one cared?
quote "As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well"
This just plainly makes some TR paths unplayable, the Daze, deflect TR will continue as now. The Sab's who have low mobility, low deflect and rely solely upon stealth for defence will be the only one to suffer. Basically The deflect TR attacks sprints away, the Slow Sab is left stuck in the open without a defence. Oh but of course I forgot, all TR's can run like wind, have 50% plus deflect and 1 shot anything = so yeah no problems. Real reality expect a lot of TR's sitting at campfire to collect AD for daily because they are fed up being killed by other peoples mistakes, but then I guess you will all be happy playing 5v4
Your comments just show how badly you mis-understand the suggested changes
If its as you say a 2 sec vis against target attacked only PVP - fine sounds like a good idea, but it is not, is it? And if this effects PVE then in reality lets just go back to our old TR's please. At least they had a defence in PVE
A question for you all - how does the TR know who can and cannot see them - because anyone who has been attack by any TR can, which basically makes any TR tactics null and void. Starting to get the picture!
I look forward to hearing your response
My best to you
Matthew
As the devs said, it's not final. Is a rough idea that will be tested and then tweaked.
Then what is your suggestion. Cause right now this is what happens in PvP with what seems to be the META build:
It doesn't look like low mobility. It looks like monster damage on GWF tank, lots of mobility through dodges and base movement speed, and immunity to tank a bit. Also, that same TR has enough deflect and HP to tank 1 rotation and has soulforged. So even getting caught is not a real threat. On a note: the only "he could" that came up with this video was "at 0:16 he got a 0.2s chance to hit daily and catch him". Counter to this observation:
What if the GWF didn't have daily up
The 0.2s chance can easily be HAMSTER up by latency
The TR was kindly kiting inside the node while we all know 99% of the TRs kite in&out of the node, even going way out of it
It's quite clear that at full capability/ META build, current TR leaves no room for a counter while having easy access to high DPS.
If you don't want other TRs to get spotted, they can simply make it affect only the TR who is attacking. If other TRs attack you, you see them.
Can remove hardtargetlock from game.
The point is the same: you attack, i see you and can target you for a while.
Sustained DPS from stealth or high burst DPS with a millisecond small opening to get hit must go. TRs must get vulnerable after attacking, like any other class. I think it's quite clear.
I know it's not final yet but this whole fix is a joke, a typical knee jerk reaction to solve a non existent problem.
This is only further exacerbated by continual whine posts by ill informed players of other classes. I highly recommend either playing a TR or doing more research into one before deciding you have any knowledge base whatsoever on which to base you wild fantasies and whines.
As far as I understand from most whiners TR presently have 100% crit and 100%deflect all the time, whilst also being perma stealth and able to perma daze, roll 6 times, and cast SE daily like its an at will. Wake the F up! you can combine all 3 tree that you may have been the victim of into one killer class that simply doesnt exist!
Damage of the TR may need some addressing. Stealth does not. As for perma stealth, or near perma stealth this should be exlusive to the sab tree and come with the clause 'if you get spoted or cc' you are toast! whereas scoundrel should not have the same levels of stealth duration but gain daze control and defl survivability, and perhaps execut get hte big opening hit and some survivability but lose the lengthy stealth.
There are many ways to address issues, but blanket nerfing an inherent tab mechanic to attempt to address several separate issues isnt the way. I hope this ****e doesnt go live!
they could also just have rogues in stealth take 2-4x damage if hit to increase the risk of trying to perma. i remember some games having that trade-off
that is the point, the proposed fix is not to counter permastealth but to counter stealth.
result: you are in stealth but you are visible. ahahaha
you know what? take stealth away and gimme a new tab.
You clearly don't understand how deflect and tenacity work or interact with each other.
i don't get this buzz about deflect severity
yesterday, i dodged a scoundrel who deft striked me from stealth since i knew he was coming (this time). my oppressor wizard ended up perma-controlling him to death without being hit once and i didn't even use a daily or move 1 step after dodging.
yesterday, i dodged a scoundrel who deft striked me from stealth since i knew he was coming (this time). my oppressor wizard ended up perma-controlling him to death without being hit once and i didn't even use a daily or move 1 step after dodging.
It's the latest thing for nuubs who don't understand game mechanics to get worked up about. The guy I quoted being a prime example.
Damage of the TR may need some addressing. Stealth does not. As for perma stealth, or near perma stealth this should be exlusive to the sab tree and come with the clause 'if you get spoted or cc' you are toast! whereas scoundrel should not have the same levels of stealth duration but gain daze control and defl survivability, and perhaps execut get hte big opening hit and some survivability but lose the lengthy stealth.
There are many ways to address issues, but blanket nerfing an inherent tab mechanic to attempt to address several separate issues isnt the way. I hope this ****e doesnt go live!
The point is, you never get caught with current TRs mechanics unless you want to or you're unlicky. It's shown in that video and can be seen in PvP every day. Current most seen mechanic is stealth--->attack--->roll--->roll--->stealth--->evade, occasionally roll is the enemy by chance gets close to you--->get back to attack. Longer rolls and 1 more roll are a reality. They got buffed.
That "if you get caught you are toast" is quite a big "IF", cause good TRs pretty much never get caught. It's a slim chance of a 0,1% someone can actually catch you taking latency into account, when they can practically target you for 0.2s if they are lucky.
You should have freedom to move in stealth and pick up your target. Not freedom to double roll immunity into stealth and then be safe till your CDs are over. Which is what happens now, and is shown in this video:
that is the point, the proposed fix is not to counter permastealth but to counter stealth.
result: you are in stealth but you are visible. ahahaha
you know what? take stealth away and gimme a new tab.
You can have ITC activated for 8 seconds after you lose half your HPs, so you feel how it is to have "Unstoppable".
It's quite different to "have stealth" and to chain stealth with long rolls or immunities to leave no openings in your defense.
It's in that video above. If you can explain or show a video of you playing a GWF and countering that kind of stuff, we're all hear.
In that video you see the TR freely DPSing and freely moving in stealth and being able to be out of reach 99% of the time.
Nanners can be seen for a millisecond during that fight and only cause he decided on purpose to stay on node all the time except when Jeb used avalanche.
You can't be that much into stealth along with other tools to survive, as much as a GWF is not all the time in unstoppable with a 0.2s pause between on Unstoppable and the other. Or a GF with a 360° shield block that drops only for 0.2s and then is up again.
You can come up with other suggestions to counter this. But you can't say you "NEED" to be either in stealth or immune all the time like in that video, to be able to fight, cause it's pretty much like saying "i must be able to be out of reach all the time to fight".
Panodo83 - there are lots of ways you can eliminate perma if that is what the Devs want in PVP without ruining PVE for all TR's - for example just have stealth last less time in PVP. It is already quite hard to perma in PVP, you have to be very carful using at wills and encounters.
But if this goes live in PVE what will happen to Sab's is this - use at will, at will target immediately jumps upon and attacks TR. This attack is pretty much immediate by most mobs now (fraction of a second upon my pc at least), you know things like drakes. TR's stealth now does not generate for 3 seconds, TR loses percentage of stealth equal to the percentage of hit points damage taken, which pretty much knocks them out of stealth - result TR now finds it impossible to regain stealth without using SS, which due to the longest cooldowns of any toons has its limits. Result TR's dead in PVE due to no defence. And no damage - because all of Sabs damage really relies upon - you guessed it stealth!
Play a TR and find out for yourself - the trouble is finding a balance between PVP and PVE - at the moment the TR's are doing ok in PVE. They are not OP in this respect and are normally outshone by roughly same geared scored CW, SW, GWF in terms of damage - perhaps rightly so.
In PVP I can see that TR's are too hard to fight for a lot of people, but leaving them open to attack from actions made by another team member is imo plain silly, and a death sentence in PVE. So whatever happens make it PVP only please.
I know this idea is rough (but then broken rough stuff just goes live, like SOD) - but if this effects PVE then TR options are limited to one Tree / play style which is just unfair to people who have already invested in a toon.
At the end of the day it will probably happen because there are enough people moaning about TR's doing all sorts of rubbish - example my 50K HP whatever killed by 10GS TR with LB - I have a 16K GS TR it is incapable of killing anything with one shot. I have upon the other hand been one shot killed by a TR once. He was 21K GS - I have been 1 shot killed by CW, SW, GWF lots of time and they have all been around my GS. That's balance for you. In fact the only thing that has not killed me in a single blow is a DC - so buff the DC's!!!
At the end of the day I suspect its the game mechanics that mean to show a TR to his/her target also has to show all TR's - perhaps I am wrong. But the end result is the same - An average CW will one hit 75% of most TR hit points, knock them out of stealth, stop them regenerating stealth for another 3 seconds, so that 2 seconds now becomes five, and that's just to start regen, lets says 10 seconds to regen stealth and that's assuming no more damage is incoming - fat chance of that then. Lets have for example CW's cooldown's freeze while taking damage and let us listen to the outcries - fair's, fair and balance is balance after all.
As TR's are already pointing out if this happens in the PVP environment other stuff also needs to be changed, like stealth depletion, damage stopping stealth regen, the 3 seconds delay upon regen - otherwise a TR's tab just becomes a useless item and the sad fact is that at least two of three trees are built completely around that mechanic
Not easy is it - but it is easy to stop perma, but that's not what the DEVs say they want
oh and let me add another thing:
you will be HARD TARGET LOCKed even more
this is the death for the stealth.
i dont even want to talk about the sure strange interaction of this mechanic with dot enchantments.
i m happy with damage, it s alright but in all other aspect the tr class is always "can't have it all" because of stealth.
to the destruction of the stealth mechanism MUST follow a destruction of all funny aspect of the TR class. First of these: the ridicolous needs of 30% cooldowns reduction to have cooldowns under 15 sec.
i already can imagine a tr vs hr fight:
stealth, throw a dagger, get hit by carefull attack, GG no stealth 20 ticks you dead.
ideas to minimize the issue:
1) visible frames down to 1 sec.
2) no more stealth depletion on at will., i m visible after all now right?
3) strong reduction of cooldown as compensation. i cant relying on 24 seconds lashing blade, 15 seconds shadow strike and 20 seconds ITC.
you want TR to be conterplayed? alright but dont force TR to counterplay their own class.
for now i m quite sure we will be back to see a whole class running circles.
Been there done that, they destroyed Unstoppable, what makes you think Stealth is special and can somehow avoid such treatment.
Also you " cant rely " on long CD abilities ? Sure you can, just ask the Sentinels. Or perhaps this is just the start of some TR tears ?
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
You can have ITC activated for 8 seconds after you lose half your HPs, so you feel how it is to have "Unstoppable".
It's quite different to "have stealth" and to chain stealth with long rolls or immunities to leave no openings in your defense.
we already know what an itc would be like if that were to happen. it's called death.
the gwf's i fought are almost perma-immune and after i daze them with a 5k or so dazing strike, they jump immediately back into unstoppable. the downtime on some gwf's unstoppable is so small that losing a quarter hp just to enter is a small price to have an hp bar that just won't budge no matter how much i hit (i was winning against 1 until he hit half, then it just stayed there while my hp dropped to 0 no matter what i did and yes, i used my encounters once his unstoppable ended just to see it pop up again). my best bet of beating gwf's like that is within the 10 seconds of courage breaker......
then again, i lack offensive stats and don't have procs that bypass mitigation like stormspell or bursty procs like fire of the gods and intimidation. shocking execution nuke is executioner + 1st strike so that option is gone and i likely don't have my stealth bar once a gwf is on me so no guaranteed criticals.
some gwf's die easily, but some just won't die without something that bypasses mitigation in a 1 vs 1.
we already know what an itc would be like if that were to happen. it's called death.
the gwf's i fought are almost perma-immune and after i daze them with a 5k or so dazing strike, they jump immediately back into unstoppable. the downtime on some gwf's unstoppable is so small that losing a quarter hp just to enter is a small price to have an hp bar that just won't budge no matter how much i hit (i was winning against 1 until he hit half, then it just stayed there while my hp dropped to 0 no matter what i did and yes, i used my encounters once his unstoppable ended just to see it pop up again). my best bet of beating gwf's like that is within the 10 seconds of courage breaker......
then again, i lack offensive stats and don't have procs that bypass mitigation like stormspell or bursty procs like fire of the gods and intimidation. shocking execution nuke is executioner + 1st strike so that option is gone and i likely don't have my stealth bar once a gwf is on me so no guaranteed criticals.
some gwf's die easily, but some just won't die without something that bypasses mitigation in a 1 vs 1.
Well, right now Unstoppable means death too on my instigator. And i'm supposed to be a half tank/DPS hybrid. Yet my survivability is way lower than a TR's.
About sentinels, t's on video. That's a BiS sentinel vs a BiS TR. You see how it works. I don't see problems for Nanners in taking down Jeb HPs. While Jeb should've hit daily in that fraction of second when Nanners is so kind to jump next to him (he could've easily kited Jeb staying in&out of node. It shows how confident he was about taking Jeb down).
You need burst to take down a BiS sentinel but it can be done if you have enough DPS. With a TR it's quite different cause mitigation<<<immunity. So being squishy but out of reach 99% of the time, close to 100% taking latency into account, is way better than being a huge tank everyone can hit freely when you are out of unstoppable. I see even BiS sentinels die way more often than 14k TRs these days (if the TRs are good).
However, looking at the full potential rather than personal experience, it's on video: TRs have DPS to take down the tankiest sentinel and enough tools to avoid getting hit at all, pretty much.
What is needed is a true opening the enemy can use to catch you.
What is not needed is the enemy being able to see others TRs as well. As others said above, it's not fair for you to die cause of other players mistakes/ actions.
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jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
edited December 2014
It doesn't matter if we can see the rogue for 2 seconds if we are dazed for more than 2 seconds.
However, looking at the full potential rather than personal experience, it's on video: TRs have DPS to take down the tankiest sentinel and enough tools to avoid getting hit at all, pretty much.
You keep leaving the word 'some' out of these posts of yours.
When crying for nerfs it would be nice if people could at least cry about specific builds/trees.
With all respect to you - the TR's that are continually dazing you are not in stealth for long periods of time at all, so if they are the sort of TR that you want corrected, adjusting stealth and the way it works will have zero effect. Complete opposite in fact if they get the stealth thing wrong, since more and more TR's will go to the deflect/daze route like they were forced into the perma route in previous mods.
So there's something you can look forward too - perma dazes all round, but you will be able to see them - so be careful what you wish for
Just so you know - the daze TR's spend at least 2/3rd's of their time out of stealth, but they can get a 50% deflect and one on one are real killing machines imo
You need burst to take down a BiS sentinel but it can be done if you have enough DPS. With a TR it's quite different cause mitigation<<<immunity. So being squishy but out of reach 99% of the time, close to 100% taking latency into account, is way better than being a huge tank everyone can hit freely when you are out of unstoppable. I see even BiS sentinels die way more often than 14k TRs these days (if the TRs are good).
thing is, a scoundrel is pretty much a deflect tank that can be hit freely unless a person is dazed. we get 25% damage on controlled targets and 25% for up to 6 seconds on someone dazed by skullcapper. neither applies to a gwf and our deflect feats are not really significant as well as fey thistle being absorbed completely by some proc or a feat that a gwf has.
sabs have procs that bypass mitigation on top of having the highest survivability like you said and the damage buffs that go with stealth (auto critical, combat advantage, and 25% damage from a tier 4 sab feat i think)
executioners can ignore around 45-50% resist, have the highest synergy with 1st strike for 60% damage on the 1st hit, and all damage done from stealth will be followed up with half that amount within 6 seconds.
the rogue in that video seems like a sab but not sure since it's not in english. we all agree that sabs are overpowered and needs to be toned down. just don't lump every last one of us with it.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited December 2014
@Matthew
This is a proposed change for PvP-only, so please stop bringing PvE survivability into the conversation. It's not relevant.
Comments
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I am ok with nerf all class mekanic but TR need to give away their 100% crit change and have cooldown on stealth
but believe me your nonsense suggest is just not gonna happen
I have no idea why this is being directed towards me at all.
You do realise that I was saying the change was a bad thing? Right?
Remember in Mod....any mod before now when TR only had 2 stealth refills and staying in stealth 100% was a day-dream?
Remember when you were crying for a stealth CD then? Neither do I.
Stealth has a cooldown. It's called refilling the stealth meter. Same way block, heal, and cc all have a cooldown.
What's more of a threat? The TR running around in ITC with ridiculous damage or the guy throwing daggers in stealth from 20m off?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
ok let's disscus about tab mekanic
first you mistaken refilling stealth meter as cooldown, this refilling stealth meter mekanic is duration effect stealth that i think is cheese too
cooldown is range time when you can use skill after u used it, so it's no spawnable just like when you use encounter skill, non cooldown skill is like atwill skill
TR can freely in and out stealth mode as spawnable skill
let's compare tab mekanic with other class, for example
GWF = before GWF can aktif unstopable they need to take hit first and the bar draining if not use, have limited short time, it can be counter even can be killed when in unstopble condition
GF = can be countered just need to slip behind them
HR = every power skill have limitation if you range type then your melee stance will be buff or non damage skill and if you melee type your range stance will be buff or non damage skill, if both skill are damage skill then there nothing spesial in both stance
you can't compare other class mekanic that have limitation, that why i think this limitation that dev think about need to be implement well i even think 3-4s is ok, if you hit you need to show your face
the first attack will be owened by TR with their ambush, TR stealth mekanic can't be countered because you don't know where and when TR will come, even the damage come you still cannot see TR to countered him, i think this change is important so other class can countered TR at least when they attaked us
don't forget about 100% crit change and almost imune when deflec
I do agree that if it is 2 seconds, stealth depletion should go/ get reworked.
What i suppose should happen is that the TR attacks from stealth either dealing huge initial damage or applying DoT, is visible for 2 seconds and must defend/ dodge, which is possible, then goes back to stealth.
1 second means you attack, roll away and then you are back to stealth, basically. Which would be the same as now.
I don't play TR (have a low level alt on another account but just started it for fun, don't have time to play it), but pretty much all the PvP TRs i meet are visible for like 0.2 seconds or not visible at all while dealing huge DPS as either spike damage or DoT.
What should happen is you attack from stealth, if i know you're there i try to anticipate your rotation and dodge it. Then you are visible for 2 seconds and it's your turn to run, my turn to attack.
There are options to defend yourself like the shadow clones, dazes, ITC, dodge rolls exc...during those 2 seconds.
I think the idea behind the changes is good. As crush said, it's not final, need to test it when it goes live, then see how stuff can be combined to create a balanced scenario where other classes have their turn to target the TR and attack.
Cause right now it's pretty much a one-sided fight where the TR dictates the pace and the enemy must try to grab a perhaps 0.2s chance to catch the TR. PvP TRs can also usually stand a rotation now.
If then to balance TRs need more DR or more HPs it could be done. But what must go is the absolute defense we see now, where pretty much the TR is always either in stealth out of reach, or rolling in immunity, or in ITC immunity, or you are dazed.
Talking about full potential.
Should be hit-run tactics but while now it's super easy to run back into stealth leaving no room for counter attacks, in the future it should require also more proactive play to dodge attacks from enemies who can actually target you, and make it a real battle. Like every class, once you land your rotation (from stealth in your case) you are actually open to counterattacks.
I'd say 2 seconds after dealing damage, but no stealth depletion upon attacking. Would be probably too much.
But 2 seconds to counter attack are much better than a tiny 0.2 seconds during which you might barely see the TR zooming near you while in stealth and the rolling away somewhere.
That's not stated anywhere. I think it is limited to the TR attacking and the target. The guy you attack will see you for 2 seconds.
Actually is it -
quote "As an added bonus, when you are struck by a rogue in stealth you are just becoming more keenly aware of stealth, and other stealthed rogues will become visible to you as well"
This just plainly makes some TR paths unplayable, the Daze, deflect TR will continue as now. The Sab's who have low mobility, low deflect and rely solely upon stealth for defence will be the only one to suffer. Basically The deflect TR attacks sprints away, the Slow Sab is left stuck in the open without a defence. Oh but of course I forgot, all TR's can run like wind, have 50% plus deflect and 1 shot anything = so yeah no problems. Real reality expect a lot of TR's sitting at campfire to collect AD for daily because they are fed up being killed by other peoples mistakes, but then I guess you will all be happy playing 5v4
Your comments just show how badly you mis-understand the suggested changes
If its as you say a 2 sec vis against target attacked only PVP - fine sounds like a good idea, but it is not, is it? And if this effects PVE then in reality lets just go back to our old TR's please. At least they had a defence in PVE
A question for you all - how does the TR know who can and cannot see them - because anyone who has been attack by any TR can, which basically makes any TR tactics null and void. Starting to get the picture!
I look forward to hearing your response
My best to you
Matthew
Let's discuss how badly you don't understand this.
Yea, it does work like a cooldown.
You press the button, use the effect, and when the effect ends, you can't use the skill until the meter is full again. It's literally a cooldown. The only difference is there are certain mechanics to refill this stealth meter.
Remember in Mod 4 when a TR actually could stay in stealth for a long time and you had no sight of him? Remember when you were complaining about it then? Neither do I.
The stealth mechanic isn't the problem, it's the damage.
That's why you're complaining. You're just taking a backwards *** approach to fixing it by trying to stab TRs where it really hurts - survivability.
Yea, no we can't.
If I could press Tab to leave stealth, that'd be a direct buff and you'd be whining even harder.
Actually, no.
GWF has a Feat to increase the gauge when dealing damage. At that, it only decreases if you're out of combat for an extended period of time.
Also, TR can be killed while stealthed. Happened plenty of times to me.
Until you find someone who has the keen and sage-like ability to... move their ****ing mouse.
I can't even read this.
I can compare it.
Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth builds before now?
That question was rhetorical. Here's the answer: survivability.
Granted, DC survivability was also a problem, even with heals. However, DC served a vital team role, even with a tanky build. TR is the staple assassin class - kill it quick and dip. TR has naturally low survivability. It's possible to make a TR that's pretty tanky but that's done at the expense of killing power. TR moved towards permastealth builds because we're naturally squishy and stealth was the perfect mechanic to increase survivability. High int and recovery stats didn't compromise our damage but also added to our survivability. It was the obvious choice.
Like I said, the stealth mechanic isn't your problem. It's the damage.
If we had Mod 4 TR damage with Mod 5 stealth capabilities, you wouldn't be crying like this.
I probably sound like a broken record by now but
remember when TR was doing this for nearly 4 mods and no one cared?
That's ITC, hun. Not deflect. You should have a word with Combat HRs if you're getting those two confused.
And this just goes to reinforce my point: Your problem is the damage, not stealth.
People were countering stealth mechanics since..what, mod 2?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
As the devs said, it's not final. Is a rough idea that will be tested and then tweaked.
Then what is your suggestion. Cause right now this is what happens in PvP with what seems to be the META build:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
It doesn't look like low mobility. It looks like monster damage on GWF tank, lots of mobility through dodges and base movement speed, and immunity to tank a bit. Also, that same TR has enough deflect and HP to tank 1 rotation and has soulforged. So even getting caught is not a real threat. On a note: the only "he could" that came up with this video was "at 0:16 he got a 0.2s chance to hit daily and catch him". Counter to this observation:
What if the GWF didn't have daily up
The 0.2s chance can easily be HAMSTER up by latency
The TR was kindly kiting inside the node while we all know 99% of the TRs kite in&out of the node, even going way out of it
It's quite clear that at full capability/ META build, current TR leaves no room for a counter while having easy access to high DPS.
If you don't want other TRs to get spotted, they can simply make it affect only the TR who is attacking. If other TRs attack you, you see them.
Can remove hardtargetlock from game.
The point is the same: you attack, i see you and can target you for a while.
Sustained DPS from stealth or high burst DPS with a millisecond small opening to get hit must go. TRs must get vulnerable after attacking, like any other class. I think it's quite clear.
This is only further exacerbated by continual whine posts by ill informed players of other classes. I highly recommend either playing a TR or doing more research into one before deciding you have any knowledge base whatsoever on which to base you wild fantasies and whines.
As far as I understand from most whiners TR presently have 100% crit and 100%deflect all the time, whilst also being perma stealth and able to perma daze, roll 6 times, and cast SE daily like its an at will. Wake the F up! you can combine all 3 tree that you may have been the victim of into one killer class that simply doesnt exist!
Damage of the TR may need some addressing. Stealth does not. As for perma stealth, or near perma stealth this should be exlusive to the sab tree and come with the clause 'if you get spoted or cc' you are toast! whereas scoundrel should not have the same levels of stealth duration but gain daze control and defl survivability, and perhaps execut get hte big opening hit and some survivability but lose the lengthy stealth.
There are many ways to address issues, but blanket nerfing an inherent tab mechanic to attempt to address several separate issues isnt the way. I hope this ****e doesnt go live!
result: you are in stealth but you are visible. ahahaha
you know what? take stealth away and gimme a new tab.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
i don't get this buzz about deflect severity
yesterday, i dodged a scoundrel who deft striked me from stealth since i knew he was coming (this time). my oppressor wizard ended up perma-controlling him to death without being hit once and i didn't even use a daily or move 1 step after dodging.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The point is, you never get caught with current TRs mechanics unless you want to or you're unlicky. It's shown in that video and can be seen in PvP every day. Current most seen mechanic is stealth--->attack--->roll--->roll--->stealth--->evade, occasionally roll is the enemy by chance gets close to you--->get back to attack. Longer rolls and 1 more roll are a reality. They got buffed.
That "if you get caught you are toast" is quite a big "IF", cause good TRs pretty much never get caught. It's a slim chance of a 0,1% someone can actually catch you taking latency into account, when they can practically target you for 0.2s if they are lucky.
You should have freedom to move in stealth and pick up your target. Not freedom to double roll immunity into stealth and then be safe till your CDs are over. Which is what happens now, and is shown in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrmke1LDTGE
As i said, if Nanners fought as 99% of PvP TRs, he would not even be seen and Jeb would have no real weapons to find him. That's just absurd.
You can have ITC activated for 8 seconds after you lose half your HPs, so you feel how it is to have "Unstoppable".
It's quite different to "have stealth" and to chain stealth with long rolls or immunities to leave no openings in your defense.
It's in that video above. If you can explain or show a video of you playing a GWF and countering that kind of stuff, we're all hear.
In that video you see the TR freely DPSing and freely moving in stealth and being able to be out of reach 99% of the time.
Nanners can be seen for a millisecond during that fight and only cause he decided on purpose to stay on node all the time except when Jeb used avalanche.
You can't be that much into stealth along with other tools to survive, as much as a GWF is not all the time in unstoppable with a 0.2s pause between on Unstoppable and the other. Or a GF with a 360° shield block that drops only for 0.2s and then is up again.
You can come up with other suggestions to counter this. But you can't say you "NEED" to be either in stealth or immune all the time like in that video, to be able to fight, cause it's pretty much like saying "i must be able to be out of reach all the time to fight".
Panodo83 - there are lots of ways you can eliminate perma if that is what the Devs want in PVP without ruining PVE for all TR's - for example just have stealth last less time in PVP. It is already quite hard to perma in PVP, you have to be very carful using at wills and encounters.
But if this goes live in PVE what will happen to Sab's is this - use at will, at will target immediately jumps upon and attacks TR. This attack is pretty much immediate by most mobs now (fraction of a second upon my pc at least), you know things like drakes. TR's stealth now does not generate for 3 seconds, TR loses percentage of stealth equal to the percentage of hit points damage taken, which pretty much knocks them out of stealth - result TR now finds it impossible to regain stealth without using SS, which due to the longest cooldowns of any toons has its limits. Result TR's dead in PVE due to no defence. And no damage - because all of Sabs damage really relies upon - you guessed it stealth!
Play a TR and find out for yourself - the trouble is finding a balance between PVP and PVE - at the moment the TR's are doing ok in PVE. They are not OP in this respect and are normally outshone by roughly same geared scored CW, SW, GWF in terms of damage - perhaps rightly so.
In PVP I can see that TR's are too hard to fight for a lot of people, but leaving them open to attack from actions made by another team member is imo plain silly, and a death sentence in PVE. So whatever happens make it PVP only please.
I know this idea is rough (but then broken rough stuff just goes live, like SOD) - but if this effects PVE then TR options are limited to one Tree / play style which is just unfair to people who have already invested in a toon.
At the end of the day it will probably happen because there are enough people moaning about TR's doing all sorts of rubbish - example my 50K HP whatever killed by 10GS TR with LB - I have a 16K GS TR it is incapable of killing anything with one shot. I have upon the other hand been one shot killed by a TR once. He was 21K GS - I have been 1 shot killed by CW, SW, GWF lots of time and they have all been around my GS. That's balance for you. In fact the only thing that has not killed me in a single blow is a DC - so buff the DC's!!!
At the end of the day I suspect its the game mechanics that mean to show a TR to his/her target also has to show all TR's - perhaps I am wrong. But the end result is the same - An average CW will one hit 75% of most TR hit points, knock them out of stealth, stop them regenerating stealth for another 3 seconds, so that 2 seconds now becomes five, and that's just to start regen, lets says 10 seconds to regen stealth and that's assuming no more damage is incoming - fat chance of that then. Lets have for example CW's cooldown's freeze while taking damage and let us listen to the outcries - fair's, fair and balance is balance after all.
As TR's are already pointing out if this happens in the PVP environment other stuff also needs to be changed, like stealth depletion, damage stopping stealth regen, the 3 seconds delay upon regen - otherwise a TR's tab just becomes a useless item and the sad fact is that at least two of three trees are built completely around that mechanic
Not easy is it - but it is easy to stop perma, but that's not what the DEVs say they want
Nice talking to you
Matthew
Been there done that, they destroyed Unstoppable, what makes you think Stealth is special and can somehow avoid such treatment.
Also you " cant rely " on long CD abilities ? Sure you can, just ask the Sentinels. Or perhaps this is just the start of some TR tears ?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
the gwf's i fought are almost perma-immune and after i daze them with a 5k or so dazing strike, they jump immediately back into unstoppable. the downtime on some gwf's unstoppable is so small that losing a quarter hp just to enter is a small price to have an hp bar that just won't budge no matter how much i hit (i was winning against 1 until he hit half, then it just stayed there while my hp dropped to 0 no matter what i did and yes, i used my encounters once his unstoppable ended just to see it pop up again). my best bet of beating gwf's like that is within the 10 seconds of courage breaker......
then again, i lack offensive stats and don't have procs that bypass mitigation like stormspell or bursty procs like fire of the gods and intimidation. shocking execution nuke is executioner + 1st strike so that option is gone and i likely don't have my stealth bar once a gwf is on me so no guaranteed criticals.
some gwf's die easily, but some just won't die without something that bypasses mitigation in a 1 vs 1.
Well, right now Unstoppable means death too on my instigator. And i'm supposed to be a half tank/DPS hybrid. Yet my survivability is way lower than a TR's.
About sentinels, t's on video. That's a BiS sentinel vs a BiS TR. You see how it works. I don't see problems for Nanners in taking down Jeb HPs. While Jeb should've hit daily in that fraction of second when Nanners is so kind to jump next to him (he could've easily kited Jeb staying in&out of node. It shows how confident he was about taking Jeb down).
You need burst to take down a BiS sentinel but it can be done if you have enough DPS. With a TR it's quite different cause mitigation<<<immunity. So being squishy but out of reach 99% of the time, close to 100% taking latency into account, is way better than being a huge tank everyone can hit freely when you are out of unstoppable. I see even BiS sentinels die way more often than 14k TRs these days (if the TRs are good).
However, looking at the full potential rather than personal experience, it's on video: TRs have DPS to take down the tankiest sentinel and enough tools to avoid getting hit at all, pretty much.
What is needed is a true opening the enemy can use to catch you.
What is not needed is the enemy being able to see others TRs as well. As others said above, it's not fair for you to die cause of other players mistakes/ actions.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
When crying for nerfs it would be nice if people could at least cry about specific builds/trees.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
With all respect to you - the TR's that are continually dazing you are not in stealth for long periods of time at all, so if they are the sort of TR that you want corrected, adjusting stealth and the way it works will have zero effect. Complete opposite in fact if they get the stealth thing wrong, since more and more TR's will go to the deflect/daze route like they were forced into the perma route in previous mods.
So there's something you can look forward too - perma dazes all round, but you will be able to see them - so be careful what you wish for
Just so you know - the daze TR's spend at least 2/3rd's of their time out of stealth, but they can get a 50% deflect and one on one are real killing machines imo
All the best
Matthew
thing is, a scoundrel is pretty much a deflect tank that can be hit freely unless a person is dazed. we get 25% damage on controlled targets and 25% for up to 6 seconds on someone dazed by skullcapper. neither applies to a gwf and our deflect feats are not really significant as well as fey thistle being absorbed completely by some proc or a feat that a gwf has.
sabs have procs that bypass mitigation on top of having the highest survivability like you said and the damage buffs that go with stealth (auto critical, combat advantage, and 25% damage from a tier 4 sab feat i think)
executioners can ignore around 45-50% resist, have the highest synergy with 1st strike for 60% damage on the 1st hit, and all damage done from stealth will be followed up with half that amount within 6 seconds.
the rogue in that video seems like a sab but not sure since it's not in english. we all agree that sabs are overpowered and needs to be toned down. just don't lump every last one of us with it.
This is a proposed change for PvP-only, so please stop bringing PvE survivability into the conversation. It's not relevant.
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Why did it say that the changes were PVP only?
I must have missed that bit - most changes seem to effect both
Thanks in advance
Matthew
"Experimenting with some changes to Stealth in PVP to provide counters to Permastealth. Nothing final yet, but we are looking."
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