Well, right now Unstoppable means death too on my instigator. And i'm supposed to be a half tank/DPS hybrid. Yet my survivability is way lower than a TR's.
About sentinels, t's on video. That's a BiS sentinel vs a BiS TR. You see how it works. I don't see problems for Nanners in taking down Jeb HPs. While Jeb should've hit daily in that fraction of second when Nanners is so kind to jump next to him (he could've easily kited Jeb staying in&out of node. It shows how confident he was about taking Jeb down).
You need burst to take down a BiS sentinel but it can be done if you have enough DPS. With a TR it's quite different cause mitigation<<<immunity. So being squishy but out of reach 99% of the time, close to 100% taking latency into account, is way better than being a huge tank everyone can hit freely when you are out of unstoppable. I see even BiS sentinels die way more often than 14k TRs these days (if the TRs are good).
However, looking at the full potential rather than personal experience, it's on video: TRs have DPS to take down the tankiest sentinel and enough tools to avoid getting hit at all, pretty much.
What is needed is a true opening the enemy can use to catch you.
What is not needed is the enemy being able to see others TRs as well. As others said above, it's not fair for you to die cause of other players mistakes/ actions.
we (me and you) are talking about pvp and still you continue to bring to the table pve builds (instigator).
you want to pvp you should be sentinel, like the trickster you are complaining are "permastealther" .
as sentinel your examples makes no sense.
or should we open thread about archery HR needing strong BUFFs?
just think to how much stupid the proposed changes are:
1) a trickster with limitated (because is its playstyle or because devs want it to be like it) stealth use, get it's tab entirely destroyed.
2) a trickster who decided to use shadow strike is then visible for 2 seconds ?? what? a joke?
they are not countering permastealth, they are killing stealth.
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched. Because let's be real shadow strike is a wasted slot we are forced to have to use our tab. Forced, yes it's the right term.
If that is not right for you or for devs, ok. Let's start a WHOLE rework. WHOLE.
they are not even been 2 weeks we already are to the point to destroy 2 of the 3 trees. Is that a success for devs?
For me it's the last proof of an approximate work.
And when you say: " you have dodges for those two seconds" is false. Because we are talking about wasting 4 dodges because i decided to throw a knife. So yes i have dodges.. if i throw a knife every stamina full refill.
the whole point is wrong:
what about unstoppable interrupts if you start attacking?
or CW mastery slot stops its cooldown while you are fighting?
i know there is the need to stop this but
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched
the above would be a fair solution. The proposed no.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
So, this is what the devs are trying to do to solve the stealth issue.
From my point of view, the change looks good. I'll explain why:
Current TR has strong DPS. We know it. Damage is there. Be it burst damage or DoT damage, TRs now are more than capable to take down opponents fast as they are supposed to do as a DPS class. Here, one example:
Tank Sentinel taken down, quite fast i'd say.
Here we also see how the TR is pretty much out of reach 99% of the time the fight lasts. Could've been easily 100% if the TR decided to kite going off node.
Now to the changes. From my point of view, and from what we see in that video, here's what happens now: TR decides when to attack, when to disengage, when to be seen and when to come back to attack. So you have either DPS from stealth (SoD) which is not a burst but still consistent and delivered from stealth, or burst-->roll back to stealth-->roll "spam"+ high mobility to be out of reach in an instant. If the TR plays it right, you've no room to fight back in a 1v1 scenario. Mobility to kite even GWF sprint and stealth pretty much all the time.
With changes: the TR hits from stealth and engage as they please like now. But they can't then just spam rolls and get back to stealth right away, getting out of reach in a fraction of a second and then using superior mobility and remaining rolls to pretty much never get caught. Must time his burst and then he is visible for 2 seconds. 2 seconds is ok for me for a simple reason: TRs have rolls, long rolls, and plenty of them.
But now, the enemy can see them (they don't rush in stealth right away) and can time his attacks. The TR can dodge, the enemy can target them and try to catch them.
TR rolls can pretty much cover the whole 2 seconds if you just spam them. But if you do that, then you must kite from stealth without rolls. Much more fair than a super-fast TR who can also spam rolls from stealth whenever the enemy gets close.
In those 2 seconds, i can hit you, you can dodge. If you dodge all the time, then when you get back to stealth i know you can't dodge roll miles away and it's easier to try and follow your movements. If i can catch you in these 2 seconds, i deal damage. If i can't, you get back to stealth and safe.
Also, no more damage from stealth. Which is good. So now TRs have to actually use a bit of brain and learn to actively dodge the enemy attacks, where till now they only executed their rotation and, if they did it well, there was pretty much no room for counterattack. Now it's 2 seconds of counterattack where they must dodge actively.
So you know you can deal monster damage with burst or apply DoTs, but attacking also has a risk.
Here is introduced the risk that TRs didn't have before.
There will be drama and panic cause TRs got used for over 1 year to be pretty much all the time stealthed. From my point of view, it's just that now they will not be special anymore but will have, like other classes, that window of vulnerability during which they are targeted and must dodge/ defend. Which was missed due to excess of stealth.
Dodge rolls and other tools such as ITC, dazes exc... all combined are plenty enough from my point of view to defend yourself during these 2 seconds. Difference is, now the enemy actually has a chance to target you and it's not a 1-sided fight anymore.
What do you think? Is it good or bad, balanced or not? And why? How would you solve the issue?
Unacceptable.
Just create a potion of shadow sight and put it sell it in the PVP vender potions section.
Potion of shadow sight: Detect enemies around you within 20m
Duration: 15 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Cost: 2 silver
While you are at it why don't you create a potion that lets people become resistant to freeze skills to counter CW?
Oh yea and also why not create a potion to be immune to daze skills to?
Ah, and a potion to me immune to prones.
Give us a potion that prevents DC from healing.
Give us a potion that prevents GWF from sprinting away.
Give us a potion that prevents warlock from floating away.
Give us a potion that reduces range of hunters to 10 meters instead of 100 meters.
See where this is heading?
In the end all that you are doing is making it so the person with the most power wins, regardless of tactics and skill.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
What is there to be said... They made class same dependent on stealth, changed nothing that much, except for that now from stealth you can use only one at will. But it would be bearable. But now out of nowhere they are going to rework stealth? Now in the middle of module? After they worked whole this time in rework time just to make it dependent from stealth as usual? Is this some kind of experiment of patience? How players will react on this upside down logic? This whole ,,stealth change on the horizon'' is a big mistake because it is not time for it.
What, on the other hand, is now time for is to fix bugs:
shocking execution not ignoring all defence, i saw it few times and it was reported on preview
itc broken many times when you need it to break control it wastes? So you can use it only when you don't need it, it is really illogical
itc from stealth does not give any damage resistance, simply not working
bloodbath wastes very often if someone immediately change position or disappear from view. This daily should require target and appropriate distance.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
0
jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
With all respect to you - the TR's that are continually dazing you are not in stealth for long periods of time at all, so if they are the sort of TR that you want corrected, adjusting stealth and the way it works will have zero effect. Complete opposite in fact if they get the stealth thing wrong, since more and more TR's will go to the deflect/daze route like they were forced into the perma route in previous mods.
So there's something you can look forward too - perma dazes all round, but you will be able to see them - so be careful what you wish for
Just so you know - the daze TR's spend at least 2/3rd's of their time out of stealth, but they can get a 50% deflect and one on one are real killing machines imo
All the best
Matthew
This argument has been made over and over by rogues, but it is not entirely true. Shadow strike, dazing strike, and smoke bomb are not unique to scoundrel. With the damage output rogues have now, every path has more than enough control of their target.
I play all classes, as you can see in my signature. My rogue is in full profound with corrupt black ice daggers. Not the most geared, but I definitely understand the class and how it balances with the other classes I play.
Yes, this stealth change will force rogues to go with a perma-daze build. I do not want rogues, or any class forced down one path to be viable in PvP. I would like to see balance.
What we have now with rogues is not balance. They do not deserve to be overpowered because other classes were in the past.
This argument has been made over and over by rogues, but it is not entirely true. Shadow strike, dazing strike, and smoke bomb are not unique to scoundrel. With the damage output rogues have now, every path has more than enough control of their target.
I play all classes, as you can see in my signature. My rogue is in full profound with corrupt black ice daggers. Not the most geared, but I definitely understand the class and how it balances with the other classes I play.
Yes, this stealth change will force rogues to go with a perma-daze build. I do not want rogues, or any class forced down one path to be viable in PvP. I would like to see balance.
What we have now with rogues is not balance. They do not deserve to be overpowered because other classes were in the past.
The irony here is, playing it and being good at it aren't the same thing.
People in this thread are whining about something that was revealed in mod 2 - permastealth.
Back in the day, you actually had to gear and build for permastealth. You couldn't take a half-orc with 2 Int and 300 Recovery and make it a permastealth beast. You actually needed the race, stat rolls, and stats to pull it off.
Now, the requirements are a lot more relaxed but everyone's suddenly finding a massive problem with a 3 mod old build.
Stop playing grab-*** with the problem, it's the damage, not the stealth.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively low damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be nothing more than an annoyance? No "OMG PLS NERF STEALTH ALTOGETHER" threads.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively high damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be ridiculously overpowered? Tons of "OMG PLS NERF ALL TR MECHANICS" threads.
You're pissed about the damage.
Not a build that existed before you started playing.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Now, the requirements are a lot more relaxed but everyone's suddenly finding a massive problem with a 3 mod old build.
I don't know where you're getting that people are only now starting to complain about TRs in stealth. The latest volley of complaints is "Mod 5 was supposed to make permastealth die but zomg it's worse than ever". Every other thread in the PvP discussion forum for months on end either started out as "nerf perma", or somebody would very quickly make sure that was brought up. And yes, this was the case when TRs were basically relegated to contesting nodes. People who could still get killed by a relatively low-DPS build would complain about that, and people who weren't particularly threatened would still complain about not being able to flush out TRs in stealth.
Whining about stealth has been around ever since the original one-shot builds got nerfed into not being a thing anymore. (Not to say everyone here is whining, only that a lot of people do whine about stealth and have been doing so for a very long time.)
I don't know where you're getting that people are only now starting to complain about TRs in stealth. The latest volley of complaints is "Mod 5 was supposed to make permastealth die but zomg it's worse than ever". Every other thread in the PvP discussion forum for months on end either started out as "nerf perma", or somebody would very quickly make sure that was brought up. And yes, this was the case when TRs were basically relegated to contesting nodes. People who could still get killed by a relatively low-DPS build would complain about that, and people who weren't particularly threatened would still complain about not being able to flush out TRs in stealth.
Whining about stealth has been around ever since the original one-shot builds got nerfed into not being a thing anymore. (Not to say everyone here is whining, only that a lot of people do whine about stealth and have been doing so for a very long time.)
yeah, people complained about perma in mod 2, but they complained more about everything else a rogue had instead. you can take a good look at many complaints about rogues in mod 5 and see huge lists of things people want nerfed on a rogue (perma with 70% run speed which is scoundrel only, 1-shots, perma-daze, itc, 75% deflect severity, permas that somehow stacked above 35% deflect and achieved 50%, a perma capable of perma-daze + 1-shots, etc). noticed the distinct lack of perma-stealth by itself?
and people misunderstood the devs intention. they never said they were going to kill perma-stealth, but to make it harder and instead it got easier.
I don't know where you're getting that people are only now starting to complain about TRs in stealth. The latest volley of complaints is "Mod 5 was supposed to make permastealth die but zomg it's worse than ever". Every other thread in the PvP discussion forum for months on end either started out as "nerf perma", or somebody would very quickly make sure that was brought up. And yes, this was the case when TRs were basically relegated to contesting nodes. People who could still get killed by a relatively low-DPS build would complain about that, and people who weren't particularly threatened would still complain about not being able to flush out TRs in stealth.
Whining about stealth has been around ever since the original one-shot builds got nerfed into not being a thing anymore. (Not to say everyone here is whining, only that a lot of people do whine about stealth and have been doing so for a very long time.)
Probably because... I play the game and not Neverforum Online.
Forum complaining and in-game complaining are nowhere near the same thing. Can't remember the last time I played a domination match and someone complained about a permastealth WK camping their home point for 10 minutes.
Probably because the smart ones camped my home point and forced me to move. Knowing how relatively bad WK was in team fights.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
0
jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
The irony here is, playing it and being good at it aren't the same thing.
People in this thread are whining about something that was revealed in mod 2 - permastealth.
Back in the day, you actually had to gear and build for permastealth. You couldn't take a half-orc with 2 Int and 300 Recovery and make it a permastealth beast. You actually needed the race, stat rolls, and stats to pull it off.
Now, the requirements are a lot more relaxed but everyone's suddenly finding a massive problem with a 3 mod old build.
Stop playing grab-*** with the problem, it's the damage, not the stealth.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively low damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be nothing more than an annoyance? No "OMG PLS NERF STEALTH ALTOGETHER" threads.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively high damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be ridiculously overpowered? Tons of "OMG PLS NERF ALL TR MECHANICS" threads.
You're pissed about the damage.
Not a build that existed before you started playing.
Are you assuming I am a new player? I have played since the game existed.
I did a couple matches on my rogue today just to see if what rogues are saying is true. I specced executioner, ran with 13k gear score and no enchantments, no armor or weapon enhancements.
I was able to stay in stealth or ITC easier than ever. I dealt more damage than ever before. The only thing that could kill me was, you guessed it, another rogue...
The game is not fun for anybody when 1 type of character is notably stronger than others. I understand rogues do not want to be nerfed, but let's be realistic here.
Are you assuming I am a new player? I have played since the game existed.
I did a couple matches on my rogue today just to see if what rogues are saying is true. I specced executioner, ran with 13k gear score and no enchantments, no armor or weapon enhancements.
I was able to stay in stealth or ITC easier than ever. I dealt more damage than ever before. The only thing that could kill me was, you guessed it, another rogue...
The game is not fun for anybody when 1 type of character is notably stronger than others. I understand rogues do not want to be nerfed, but let's be realistic here.
If that's the case, this game was never fun.
We had obviously overpowered classes since mod 1.
Am I assuming you're new? With a statement like that, assumptions are no longer needed.
It would be nice if the devs didn't force meta shifts by throwing out nerfs like candy and actually took a logical approach to balancing classes. Tone down TR's damage and you're fine. It's not like permastealth is anything new. It's really only the PvE and casuals who are complaining about this.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
all these comparison's to other class classes mechanic is a joke, gf shield got nerf mod4, and also introduced a huge array of bugs to it. We can take fool dmg from a lot of attacks. GWF tab ability got nerfed also. TR's are way toooo strong, way to ****ing strong. They need a nerf. They have tooo much **** going for them, to much.
0
jeffro9000Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 121Bounty Hunter
If that's the case, this game was never fun.
We had obviously overpowered classes since mod 1.
Am I assuming you're new? With a statement like that, assumptions are no longer needed.
It would be nice if the devs didn't force meta shifts by throwing out nerfs like candy and actually took a logical approach to balancing classes. Tone down TR's damage and you're fine. It's not like permastealth is anything new. It's really only the PvE and casuals who are complaining about this.
1) just because things were not balanced before does not mean they should be unbalanced now
2) personal attacks are not appreciated and the OP asked for a civil discussion in the title of the thread
3) you agree rogues do too much damage
4) the devs have stated that they do not want rogues to be able to "permastealth"
5) changes to the rogue will happen
I'd like to clarify, i'm not talking about all builds. Pretty much i pointed my sticky finger to a specific build but not being a TR can't name it.
I find 'normal' TRs balanced like i find my instigator balanced. But these are exceptions. Rule in pvp are builds like insti sentinel for gwf or if a get it well, saboteur for TR.
The topic is specifically aimed at reading explanations from TR players and understand how to balance this thing if the devs attempt is not good.
I'd like to clarify, i'm not talking about all builds. Pretty much i pointed my sticky finger to a specific build but not being a TR can't name it.
I find 'normal' TRs balanced like i find my instigator balanced. But these are exceptions. Rule in pvp are builds like insti sentinel for gwf or if a get it well, saboteur for TR.
The topic is specifically aimed at reading explanations from TR players and understand how to balance this thing if the devs attempt is not good.
the kind you describe sounds like a sab but that video makes it hard to tell since it isn't in english. problem is the current stealth rework might kill stealth completely except for the exe/scoundrel builds.
hard to tell gwf's apart except by how quick they die which unfortunately says nothing about their feat/paragon
all these comparison's to other class classes mechanic is a joke, gf shield got nerf mod4, and also introduced a huge array of bugs to it. We can take fool dmg from a lot of attacks. GWF tab ability got nerfed also. TR's are way toooo strong, way to ****ing strong. They need a nerf. They have tooo much **** going for them, to much.
i consider gf's block to be stronger since it doesn't break within 5 seconds and actually blocks all controls.
we (me and you) are talking about pvp and still you continue to bring to the table pve builds (instigator).
you want to pvp you should be sentinel, like the trickster you are complaining are "permastealther" .
as sentinel your examples makes no sense.
or should we open thread about archery HR needing strong BUFFs?
just think to how much stupid the proposed changes are:
1) a trickster with limitated (because is its playstyle or because devs want it to be like it) stealth use, get it's tab entirely destroyed.
2) a trickster who decided to use shadow strike is then visible for 2 seconds ?? what? a joke?
they are not countering permastealth, they are killing stealth.
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched. Because let's be real shadow strike is a wasted slot we are forced to have to use our tab. Forced, yes it's the right term.
If that is not right for you or for devs, ok. Let's start a WHOLE rework. WHOLE.
they are not even been 2 weeks we already are to the point to destroy 2 of the 3 trees. Is that a success for devs?
For me it's the last proof of an approximate work.
And when you say: " you have dodges for those two seconds" is false. Because we are talking about wasting 4 dodges because i decided to throw a knife. So yes i have dodges.. if i throw a knife every stamina full refill.
the whole point is wrong:
what about unstoppable interrupts if you start attacking?
or CW mastery slot stops its cooldown while you are fighting?
i know there is the need to stop this but
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched
the above would be a fair solution. The proposed no.
I understand. Just a note: instigator is pvp DPS hybrid. Capstone is based on hits taken. Works best in pvp for a gwf. In pve destro is way better as a capstone and pretty much both are squishy the same way.
Insti capstone is perfect for pvp but worst than destro purpose for pve.
This is fact. Bring me any vetran gwf we can discuss mechanics in depth. It,s simple:
Destro: gain stacks during unstoppable (hard against dodging players, easy against mons), stacks last a long time. Easy to keep it up in pve. Hard in pvp, you need gpf and no vorpal and good luck against TRs and HRs catching them enough in 4-8 seconds.
Insti: gain stacks taking hits (players hit fast. In pvp gwfs are under attack all the time. Mobs it quite slow and stacks last for a short time. Easy to have it up in pvp. Hard in pve)
Insti just lacks the half tank part. But hits hard. With some buffs would be viable. Sentinel intimidators are boooooooooring
btw: i see your point. Tbh i'm fine with everything if it solves the issue. Don't want TRs to get overnerfed. As a main.gwf i know the feeling of your class mechanic being destroyed.
The point is, this is a direct nerf against the stealth mechanic.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against GF block.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against DC heal.
The equivalent of a direct nerf against CW cc.
These things make the class. Nearly every class is a DPS, the thing that sets them apart is their unique mechanic. Nerfing a unique mechanic isn't balance, it defeats the point of the class itself. Having sight against an invisible target isn't balance, it's just the shadow of balance in front of a direct nerf. Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth in the first place?
It would be more like changing guardian mark, DC divine power and that 4th spell thing for cw.
Yea, it does work like a cooldown.
You press the button, use the effect, and when the effect ends, you can't use the skill until the meter is full again. It's literally a cooldown. The only difference is there are certain mechanics to refill this stealth meter.
no it's not you can use the stealth duration in and out stealth as you need.. the true stealth mekanic with cooldown is just like HR have.. don't claim TR stealth mekanic as cooldown mekanic thing
i was saying that the other class tab mekanic is counterable, not like TR current condition that only have 0.2s change to counter attack
I can compare it.
Why do you think TR gravitated towards permastealth builds before now?
That question was rhetorical. Here's the answer: survivability.
Granted, DC survivability was also a problem, even with heals. However, DC served a vital team role, even with a tanky build. TR is the staple assassin class - kill it quick and dip. TR has naturally low survivability. It's possible to make a TR that's pretty tanky but that's done at the expense of killing power. TR moved towards permastealth builds because we're naturally squishy and stealth was the perfect mechanic to increase survivability. High int and recovery stats didn't compromise our damage but also added to our survivability. It was the obvious choice.
with TR current condition don't you talk about TR have low suvivability stealth, 75% deflc sev, 4 long roll imune,ITC
That's ITC, hun. Not deflect. You should have a word with Combat HRs if you're getting those two confused.
you mistaken me.. i am not talking about ITC, i am talking about with 20% tenacity = 20% control resist and 75% deflec sev give 75% control resist, gues what?? when deflec 20%+75%=95% control resist TR are almost imune when deflec
And this just goes to reinforce my point: Your problem is the damage, not stealth.
People were countering stealth mechanics since..what, mod 2?
well this change was pop up from dev not me..
in mod 5 Dev change you dagger with katana.. and with that chesse mekanic.. then Dev realise that TR become OP, dev give solution with instead taking back TR katana they nerf stealth mekanic.. if you cut me deep then you need to show me your face.. fair enough for me
I agree. Give us ITC as our tab ability, rename it Improved Evasion, and I'd be happy.
yes i think this is one of the solution too from TR user, give them ITC that work like unstopable.. let see how hard they gonna cry
look how many TR user join hand now to defend their class
because deep down you know that TR is OP in this mod 5, well i don't expect TR user to make thread discussion about how their class become OP. every TR just don't care about defending their class because they think this nerf will come but in the next mod.
now Dev wanna balance thing faster and they just panicking LOL
So, does the 2 seconds visibility (if it's confirmed to be) stack every time the rogue attacks other players now? For example if [Cloud of Steel] was activated twice would that mean a total of 4 seconds visibility for the enemy player?
If that's the case, then why even have Stealth feature in the first place since every rogue attack will now essentially break it anyway....?
Oh yeah... this reminds me -- how will Stealth increasing attacks like [Shadow Strike] work now when its main purpose before was not to break stealth and increase it's duration?
I guess they could always make the Daze/Stun duration from it at least 2 seconds longer too otherwise the attack will be pointless now.
So, does the 2 seconds visibility (if it's confirmed to be) stack every time the rogue attacks other players now? For example if [Cloud of Steel] was activated twice would that mean a total of 4 seconds visibility for the enemy player?
If that's the case, then why even have Stealth feature in the first place since every rogue attack will now essentially break it anyway....?
No i think it's 2s effect after hit land
if you deal damage again before 2s end then yes you will visible for next 2s
but it's not stacking duration and not apply in DOT
you only visible the one you attack, to be clear this is not kill stealth mekanic but give other change to counter attack
Oh yeah... this reminds me -- how will Stealth increasing attacks like [Shadow Strike] work now when its main purpose before was not to break stealth and increase it's duration?
I guess they could always make the Daze/Stun duration from it at least 2 seconds longer too otherwise the attack will be pointless now.
Easy you get that bonus attack in your 1st hit
1st hit you can't see is called ambush but 2nd strike coming and you can't see there something wrong there
no it's not you can use the stealth duration in and out stealth as you need.. the true stealth mekanic with cooldown is just like HR have.. don't claim TR stealth mekanic as cooldown mekanic thing
The amount of stupid biases in your HAMSTER of an argument is just mind boggling. In terms of mechanics your precious HRs shouldn't even HAVE stealth in the first place, as well as their version of stealth receiving:
■ free speed buff
■ unaffected by attacks in their duration
■ procs auto attack
Two of the above features require two different feats for the TR, the third is an option that doesn't exist with TRs. The only reason this kind of freebie is accepted is that it works as a Daily power with a cooldown (as if gaining AP is a hard thing for HRs). Of course, it's limited to a Daily power with a cooldown in the first place because its simply a utility power for you HRs. It's not a utility power for TRs -- it's an essential power that comprises much of both its survival and attack capability.
The very fact you're comparing the TR stealth to the HR stealth and coming up with ridiculous comments as if TR stealth should be in the same way as HR stealth is preposterous.
If you want the TR stealth to work in the same way, then the TRs need the very same survival mechanics which many people still complain as being broken OP -- namely, the deflect-wilds medicine + easymode DoT-lifesteal mechanics. We might as well also add in some of the TR powers granting free self heals as well. How does that sound?
i was saying that the other class tab mekanic is counterable, not like TR current condition that only have 0.2s change to counter attack
Every class tab mechanic is counterable. For 2 out of 3 PvP build paths stealth isn't even an issue as it is sorely limited to repositioning and self-defense, as the very creator of this thread admitted. The only TR build path that allows continuous attacks despite being in stealth is the Saboteuer.
I, as well as many TRs have already warned you against your biased slander by just jumbling up all the strengths of all TR paths in one, imaginary "super TR" and then using that as a scarecrow to incessant criticism which isn't deserving for the TRs at all.
with TR current condition don't you talk about TR have low suvivability stealth, 75% deflc sev, 4 long roll imune,ITC
75% deflection is based on chance mechanics which do not have any supplementary mechanics as to increase survivability. In terms of deflection mechanics your oh-so-precious HRs are many times more straight-up OP in that your frickin' blessed stat distribution don't require any major sacrifices of major PvP stats at all. Same with GWFs. Even GFs.
The fighter classes easily achieve more than 40% straight-up damage resistance, and then have the luxury of easily achieving 30~40% deflection as a secondary, ADDITIONAL mode of defense. You HRs simply make use of ONE class feature that allows a woppin' 15% increased defelction chance albeit conditional, and then on top of that every defelction adds self heals.
You wanna see just how well the TR survives with deflection alone? Get someone you know and have him walk around in ITC as often as he can without entering stealth while 3~4 people focus fire on him. You think a 75% deflection severity means jack-shi* with the amount of damage people can put up with concentraterd fire nowadays? To bring down a competent TR with maybe 40k 75% deflection severity you simply need put up 160k damage with 3~4 people. The only reason TRs don't die so easily is because the added factor of stealth helps them limit the amount of focus fire on them.
Deflection alone don't mean jackshi*. I dare you to spec out of Combat HR so you don't use any Wilds Medicine, and spec out of Pathfinder so you don't have any crazy amounts of DoT-Lifesteal. And then see how much your deflection helps you even if its higher than some 50, 60% chance. Defelction is only a secondary means.
you mistaken me.. i am not talking about ITC, i am talking about with 20% tenacity = 20% control resist and 75% deflec sev give 75% control resist, gues what?? when deflec 20%+75%=95% control resist TR are almost imune when deflec
And any other classes are exactly the same in that with 50% base def. severity and 20% tenacity, they have 70%. You HRs usually tote around extra WIS as well which adds another 5~10% control resist. You know how long a 2.5 second Concussive Strike daze lasts on a HR with 80% control resist? It lasts 0.5 seconds. They don't even see it as a daze. They think a brief net-lag happened.
It's kinda comical since every time you mention problems with deflection, the exact same -- no, even worse -- applies to your HR as well. Is this some kind of self-criticism?
well this change was pop up from dev not me..
in mod 5 Dev change you dagger with katana.. and with that chesse mekanic.. then Dev realise that TR become OP, dev give solution with instead taking back TR katana they nerf stealth mekanic.. if you cut me deep then you need to show me your face.. fair enough for me
And yet you don't talk about the amount of shi*load of cheese your kind has been doing between the entirety of mod3~mod4.
The HR says: "Hit me all you want, I lifesteal/deflect-heal everything. Get me down to 20% HP I don't care. Enter stealth, gobble one potion, and then with the regen, lifesteal, deflect-heal I'm back to full health within 10 seconds. You're not"
A bloody biased double standard If I've seen any.
yes i think this is one of the solution too from TR user, give them ITC that work like unstopable.. let see how hard they gonna cry
And give HRs wilds medicine that work like unstoppable. They'll throw a riot.
look how many TR user join hand now to defend their class
because deep down you know that TR is OP in this mod 5, well i don't expect TR user to make thread discussion about how their class become OP. every TR just don't care about defending their class because they think this nerf will come but in the next mod.
now Dev wanna balance thing faster and they just panicking LOL
Who's panicking? Like said most every TR even in this thread are actually intrigued, if not supportive, of what the devs have mentioned. You got some serious issues of dyslexia.
The only thing the TRs are "joining hands" in this thread is against your types, biased TR-haters with serious L2P issues slandering every TR player with something that is either a blatant lie, or a figment of your own imagination.
Honestly, I don't blame you. With the HR players having been in the easy-mode environment so long, I'll bet it is terrifying to find that the TRs which your types could so easily step on on the prior mods, are now actually wuppin' your HAMSTER.
The irony being that the real HR players still present a significant challeneg to any TR. But of course, you don't. Even after the changes as the devs have set forth, you still won't.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So what changes could be made in place of this one, to allow counterattack against the Saboteur build (or whatever is the META you see in PvP everywhere now).
@the guy who said stealth is not the issue since players countered it in Mod3-4:
i was one of these guys. In module 4 you could fight a TR with a GWF even if it was tricky. Won't talk about module 3 cause well, Roar spamming builds got less problems. But there's an important difference.
In module 4 the rolls were 3 and of a regular lenght. The damage was a steady mediocre damage. These differences are quite important. The low damage gave you time to track the TR down if you got skills/ experience. The shorter rolls/ less rolls (3 rolls vs 4 rolls) allowed the GWF to effectively sprint to anticipate the enemy and, again, if you were good, catch the TR. In module 4, regular GWF (not intimidation monsters) vs TR was actually balanced and i stated it many times.
In module 5 a TR with Saboteur (?) build or whatever the META is, can take you down as fast as a HR (very short time to find him)
AND
thanks to longer rolls and the 1 more roll can nullify the chance you got in module 4 to reach them.
You see the whole picture? Devs gave the potential to not just deal way more damage (needed) but evade even more while even in module 4 TRs already got the ability to engage multiple enemies (strongest node holders along with combat HRs), while the direction should've been the huge buff in DPS and the limitations to stealth they initially announced.
So i'ts not like people who trained, like me, to fight permas in the last year, suddenly need to L2P.
It's simply that the Devs buffed mobility while keeping stealth the same, nullifying (at least for GWFs) the chances to catch a TR.
Add the fact that prones were removed and TRs can often nullify stuns with deflect+tenacity, and i'd love to see you fight with a GWF a current META PvP TR.
So what changes could be made in place of this one, to allow counterattack against the Saboteur build (or whatever is the META you see in PvP everywhere now).
i think 2-4x damage against stealthed targets or double the radius to see a stealthed player would be interesting
OK - I have two TR's one being a WK SAB, and although no WK SAB's do not have great deflect, and pretty low control resist if you are talking plainly about perma then I do get it. And ideally would like to get to a stage that I think the Devs intended originally, that being the SAB's being able to go in and out of stealth upon a regular basis.
My own personal preference would be along the lines of having any encounter power refill the stealth bar, but this only works when visible. Hence the TR now has two options, use encounter from stealth for maximum effect (damage), or use as normal effect and regain stealth. Hence going the SAB route would be an in and out of stealth play style, not a perma one. Making this viable you would probably need to get rid of at least one stealth filling encounter, either BNS or SS - or both, but that would effect the other two trees to a degree.
I would recommend fragment between 11 and 17 minute
I dont know what else evidence do you need. TR is most unbalanced class since mod 2 immortal GWF. And when somebody will notice that the TR can shoot his most ever broken daily every 30 second?
PS. 10k from at-wil in GWF and GF. This is all sick.
4) the devs have stated that they do not want rogues to be able to "permastealth"
Nope. What they've always said is that they wanted to increase the number of counterplay options against permastealth and make permastealth more difficult to achieve. At no point has any dev said they want to remove it.
while you are at it rework the bonus pvp set. These are the ways we should follow to counter permastealth not randomly destroy the whole mechanic.
Dont let me lose hopes
The amount of stupid biases in your HAMSTER of an argument is just mind boggling. In terms of mechanics your precious HRs shouldn't even HAVE stealth in the first place, as well as their version of stealth receiving:
■ free speed buff
■ unaffected by attacks in their duration
■ procs auto attack
Two of the above features require two different feats for the TR, the third is an option that doesn't exist with TRs. The only reason this kind of freebie is accepted is that it works as a Daily power with a cooldown (as if gaining AP is a hard thing for HRs). Of course, it's limited to a Daily power with a cooldown in the first place because its simply a utility power for you HRs. It's not a utility power for TRs -- it's an essential power that comprises much of both its survival and attack capability.
The very fact you're comparing the TR stealth to the HR stealth and coming up with ridiculous comments as if TR stealth should be in the same way as HR stealth is preposterous.
If you want the TR stealth to work in the same way, then the TRs need the very same survival mechanics which many people still complain as being broken OP -- namely, the deflect-wilds medicine + easymode DoT-lifesteal mechanics. We might as well also add in some of the TR powers granting free self heals as well. How does that sound?
i think you don't get my point.. i just saying that you can't claim that TR have cooldown stealth mekanic, it's how TR mekanic work in this game and i think Dev want it like how it's works now and i am cool with it, my point is in this mod 5 with add more dodge, DPS, deflec sev TR become OP along with stealth mekanic is uncounterable in 0.2s change to even touch TR. even you already saying it too that TR power is OP in you prev post
+25% deflec sev is more cheese than wild med, i already explain it before and i will explain it again bellow
4 long roll wanna compare it with dazed dodge HR have?
HR have stealth well HR is scout too you know..?
HR don't have ITC you know..?
if you wanna talk about what other class have and don't have this discussion will not met it's end
Every class tab mechanic is counterable. For 2 out of 3 PvP build paths stealth isn't even an issue as it is sorely limited to repositioning and self-defense, as the very creator of this thread admitted. The only TR build path that allows continuous attacks despite being in stealth is the Saboteuer.
I, as well as many TRs have already warned you against your biased slander by just jumbling up all the strengths of all TR paths in one, imaginary "super TR" and then using that as a scarecrow to incessant criticism which isn't deserving for the TRs at all.
every TR just saying that this stealth mekanic is counterable and other class just need to figure out, i was waiting here all the time want to know how you counter something you can't see then strike with full rotation of crit after that they roll and roll then in stealth mode again and have only 0.2s change to counter attack even when you catch them if your CC being deflec it's gonna be useless, i mean good TR that know their rotation and don't mess up. i am all ears here
until now the tips i got is about TR vs TR that is useless to the discussion
what i was point out is 100% crit change, 75% deflc sev but dev wanna nerf the mekanic of stealth.. so place you rage somewhere else
75% deflection is based on chance mechanics which do not have any supplementary mechanics as to increase survivability. In terms of deflection mechanics your oh-so-precious HRs are many times more straight-up OP in that your frickin' blessed stat distribution don't require any major sacrifices of major PvP stats at all. Same with GWFs. Even GFs.
The fighter classes easily achieve more than 40% straight-up damage resistance, and then have the luxury of easily achieving 30~40% deflection as a secondary, ADDITIONAL mode of defense. You HRs simply make use of ONE class feature that allows a woppin' 15% increased defelction chance albeit conditional, and then on top of that every defelction adds self heals.
You wanna see just how well the TR survives with deflection alone? Get someone you know and have him walk around in ITC as often as he can without entering stealth while 3~4 people focus fire on him. You think a 75% deflection severity means jack-shi* with the amount of damage people can put up with concentraterd fire nowadays? To bring down a competent TR with maybe 40k 75% deflection severity you simply need put up 160k damage with 3~4 people. The only reason TRs don't die so easily is because the added factor of stealth helps them limit the amount of focus fire on them.
Deflection alone don't mean jackshi*. I dare you to spec out of Combat HR so you don't use any Wilds Medicine, and spec out of Pathfinder so you don't have any crazy amounts of DoT-Lifesteal. And then see how much your deflection helps you even if its higher than some 50, 60% chance. Defelction is only a secondary means.
you wanna know how HR got high deflc? lone wolf buff it's depend on how many enemy around you.. read my prev post before i don't wanna make TR 75% deflc sev to be deleted.. what i want is change it to +5% deflc sev each enemy around max 25%. it's work just like lone wolf HR. HR got deflc change TR got deflc sev in the same way it's fair enough or maybe change it to 25% DR when deflec so no +25% control resist
you blabering about other cheese.. like TR don't have high crit change and recovery easly
here i gonna explain it again why +25% deflv sev is more cheese than wild med
let's say HR take 10k damage with 4k HP when deflec 50% then HR will just drop dead without even able to self heal
let's say TR take 10k damage with 4k HP when deflec 75% then TR will still kicking with 1.5k HP and will be a lot of maybe roll steatlh, use pot,artifact, running take pot, got heal by DC, even can kill the opponent
let's say HR take 5k damage with max hp 30k when deflec HR got regen 2.5% * 30k HP = 750 HP, to get this 750 HP HR need to wait 15s and max being stack to 10, and don't forget we only can stack it 1 per sec
let's say TR take 5k damage when deflec then TR got 1250 reduce damage instant, no need to wait 15s, no boundary how many this can be stack, no need to make 30k max hp, no boundry can happen more than once per sec
and don't forget about 25% control resist TR got when deflc
And any other classes are exactly the same in that with 50% base def. severity and 20% tenacity, they have 70%. You HRs usually tote around extra WIS as well which adds another 5~10% control resist. You know how long a 2.5 second Concussive Strike daze lasts on a HR with 80% control resist? It lasts 0.5 seconds. They don't even see it as a daze. They think a brief net-lag happened.
It's kinda comical since every time you mention problems with deflection, the exact same -- no, even worse -- applies to your HR as well. Is this some kind of self-criticism?
yes every class can stack tenacity and deflc stat and have 50% deflc sev, the only problem here TR got that +25% deflc sev instant
And yet you don't talk about the amount of shi*load of cheese your kind has been doing between the entirety of mod3~mod4.
The HR says: "Hit me all you want, I lifesteal/deflect-heal everything. Get me down to 20% HP I don't care. Enter stealth, gobble one potion, and then with the regen, lifesteal, deflect-heal I'm back to full health within 10 seconds. You're not"
A bloody biased double standard If I've seen any.
seriusly i think you need to move on about prev mod, it's good that Dev wanna change faster and not gonna wait until next mod to make PVP balance.. think about when mod 6 coming and TR got nerf badly then there is new rework class that become OP..
what is the glory there to dominated PVP with your class if your class got title of become OP? unless you are wicked player that don't wanna equal fair PVP
Who's panicking? Like said most every TR even in this thread are actually intrigued, if not supportive, of what the devs have mentioned. You got some serious issues of dyslexia.
The only thing the TRs are "joining hands" in this thread is against your types, biased TR-haters with serious L2P issues slandering every TR player with something that is either a blatant lie, or a figment of your own imagination.
Honestly, I don't blame you. With the HR players having been in the easy-mode environment so long, I'll bet it is terrifying to find that the TRs which your types could so easily step on on the prior mods, are now actually wuppin' your HAMSTER.
The irony being that the real HR players still present a significant challeneg to any TR. But of course, you don't. Even after the changes as the devs have set forth, you still won't.
"I'll bet it is terrifying to find that the TRs which your types could so easily step on on the prior mods, are now actually wuppin' your HAMSTER." and thank again to mention again that TR is OP in this mod
L2P issues? then please tell me how the tactic..? pick the best class you think more efficient to counter TR in this current condition? not TR vs TR or TR vs DC issues.. i talking about equal GS and experince.. give me something make sense
if you wanna discusion give something like math calculation, vid, screen shot don't just blabering nonsense again and again with rage because your class will getting nerf, i think you need to check up you blood presurre this is game you know and health is priority LOL
1) just because things were not balanced before does not mean they should be unbalanced now
2) personal attacks are not appreciated and the OP asked for a civil discussion in the title of the thread
3) you agree rogues do too much damage
4) the devs have stated that they do not want rogues to be able to "permastealth"
5) changes to the rogue will happen
If they didn't want rogues to permastealth, they're almost a handful of mods late.
Why do you think they're getting too much attention? Damage.
If TR's are doing too much damage, what's the logical solution? Easy, nerf stealth.
Now tell me the devs know what they're doing.
Tell me you know what you're doing.
no it's not you can use the stealth duration in and out stealth as you need.. the true stealth mekanic with cooldown is just like HR have.. don't claim TR stealth mekanic as cooldown mekanic thing
What's the difference between:
A) Not being able to use an ability because time is ticking until you're able to activate it again and Not being able to use an ability until its gauge is full
with TR current condition don't you talk about TR have low suvivability stealth, 75% deflc sev, 4 long roll imune,ITC
I must've missed the memo where timing attacks was hard. Spamming dodge doesn't make you immortal.
Also, only one paragon has ITC.
Also, historically, TR always had low survivability. Why do you think WK was so rare before this mod? No ITC.
Then why aren't you complaining about the relevant issues?
Remember permastealth in mod 4? Remember when we did lower damage?
Remember permastealth in mod 5? Remember when we did higher damage?
Jeez, I wonder what changed.
Obviously we need to nerf stealth because lol that'll fix everything.
you mistaken me.. i am not talking about ITC, i am talking about with 20% tenacity = 20% control resist and 75% deflec sev give 75% control resist, gues what?? when deflec 20%+75%=95% control resist TR are almost imune when deflec
Know what's better than that?
Not getting hit.
There, I've solved all of your survivability problems.
I'll send you a bill.
well this change was pop up from dev not me..
in mod 5 Dev change you dagger with katana.. and with that chesse mekanic.. then Dev realise that TR become OP, dev give solution with instead taking back TR katana they nerf stealth mekanic.. if you cut me deep then you need to show me your face.. fair enough for me
TRs are using builds and tactics that are several mods old but now they do more damage and people are complaining.
Obvious solution: Nerf stealth.
I hope to God you're never in any managerial position. With logic like this, you'd be driving an aircraft on the highway.
thanks for admiting that TR class is OP in this current condition..
now we step ahead from is TR are fine or not? to what need to be nerf from TR?
The fact that you've written a small novel complaining about damage and somehow justified nerfing the stealth mechanic is baffling enough.
Now you ask what would need to be changed?
because deep down you know that TR is OP in this mod 5, well i don't expect TR user to make thread discussion about how their class become OP. every TR just don't care about defending their class because they think this nerf will come but in the next mod.
now Dev wanna balance thing faster and they just panicking LOL
You obviously don't understand balance. Here's your logic:
TRs are doing a lot of damage, nerf stealth!
CWs are doing a lot of damage, nerf movement speed!
DCs heal for too much, nerf armorpen!
You lost your rights to post. Uninstall.
Broken mechanics, broken class designs, lack of actual content, and over zealous, bronze-age moderation?
Comments
we (me and you) are talking about pvp and still you continue to bring to the table pve builds (instigator).
you want to pvp you should be sentinel, like the trickster you are complaining are "permastealther" .
as sentinel your examples makes no sense.
or should we open thread about archery HR needing strong BUFFs?
just think to how much stupid the proposed changes are:
1) a trickster with limitated (because is its playstyle or because devs want it to be like it) stealth use, get it's tab entirely destroyed.
2) a trickster who decided to use shadow strike is then visible for 2 seconds ?? what? a joke?
they are not countering permastealth, they are killing stealth.
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched. Because let's be real shadow strike is a wasted slot we are forced to have to use our tab. Forced, yes it's the right term.
If that is not right for you or for devs, ok. Let's start a WHOLE rework. WHOLE.
they are not even been 2 weeks we already are to the point to destroy 2 of the 3 trees. Is that a success for devs?
For me it's the last proof of an approximate work.
And when you say: " you have dodges for those two seconds" is false. Because we are talking about wasting 4 dodges because i decided to throw a knife. So yes i have dodges.. if i throw a knife every stamina full refill.
the whole point is wrong:
what about unstoppable interrupts if you start attacking?
or CW mastery slot stops its cooldown while you are fighting?
i know there is the need to stop this but
a counter to permastealth would be applying their new changes after you are in stealth for 10 seconds or more and leave shadow strike utility untouched
the above would be a fair solution. The proposed no.
Unacceptable.
Just create a potion of shadow sight and put it sell it in the PVP vender potions section.
Potion of shadow sight: Detect enemies around you within 20m
Duration: 15 seconds
Cooldown: 60 seconds
Cost: 2 silver
While you are at it why don't you create a potion that lets people become resistant to freeze skills to counter CW?
Oh yea and also why not create a potion to be immune to daze skills to?
Ah, and a potion to me immune to prones.
Give us a potion that prevents DC from healing.
Give us a potion that prevents GWF from sprinting away.
Give us a potion that prevents warlock from floating away.
Give us a potion that reduces range of hunters to 10 meters instead of 100 meters.
See where this is heading?
In the end all that you are doing is making it so the person with the most power wins, regardless of tactics and skill.
What, on the other hand, is now time for is to fix bugs:
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
This argument has been made over and over by rogues, but it is not entirely true. Shadow strike, dazing strike, and smoke bomb are not unique to scoundrel. With the damage output rogues have now, every path has more than enough control of their target.
I play all classes, as you can see in my signature. My rogue is in full profound with corrupt black ice daggers. Not the most geared, but I definitely understand the class and how it balances with the other classes I play.
Yes, this stealth change will force rogues to go with a perma-daze build. I do not want rogues, or any class forced down one path to be viable in PvP. I would like to see balance.
What we have now with rogues is not balance. They do not deserve to be overpowered because other classes were in the past.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
The irony here is, playing it and being good at it aren't the same thing.
People in this thread are whining about something that was revealed in mod 2 - permastealth.
Back in the day, you actually had to gear and build for permastealth. You couldn't take a half-orc with 2 Int and 300 Recovery and make it a permastealth beast. You actually needed the race, stat rolls, and stats to pull it off.
Now, the requirements are a lot more relaxed but everyone's suddenly finding a massive problem with a 3 mod old build.
Stop playing grab-*** with the problem, it's the damage, not the stealth.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively low damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be nothing more than an annoyance? No "OMG PLS NERF STEALTH ALTOGETHER" threads.
Remember when TR was doing comparatively high damage in PvP compared to the other classes while he was permastealthed and people found it to be ridiculously overpowered? Tons of "OMG PLS NERF ALL TR MECHANICS" threads.
You're pissed about the damage.
Not a build that existed before you started playing.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
I don't know where you're getting that people are only now starting to complain about TRs in stealth. The latest volley of complaints is "Mod 5 was supposed to make permastealth die but zomg it's worse than ever". Every other thread in the PvP discussion forum for months on end either started out as "nerf perma", or somebody would very quickly make sure that was brought up. And yes, this was the case when TRs were basically relegated to contesting nodes. People who could still get killed by a relatively low-DPS build would complain about that, and people who weren't particularly threatened would still complain about not being able to flush out TRs in stealth.
Whining about stealth has been around ever since the original one-shot builds got nerfed into not being a thing anymore. (Not to say everyone here is whining, only that a lot of people do whine about stealth and have been doing so for a very long time.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
yeah, people complained about perma in mod 2, but they complained more about everything else a rogue had instead. you can take a good look at many complaints about rogues in mod 5 and see huge lists of things people want nerfed on a rogue (perma with 70% run speed which is scoundrel only, 1-shots, perma-daze, itc, 75% deflect severity, permas that somehow stacked above 35% deflect and achieved 50%, a perma capable of perma-daze + 1-shots, etc). noticed the distinct lack of perma-stealth by itself?
and people misunderstood the devs intention. they never said they were going to kill perma-stealth, but to make it harder and instead it got easier.
Probably because... I play the game and not Neverforum Online.
Forum complaining and in-game complaining are nowhere near the same thing. Can't remember the last time I played a domination match and someone complained about a permastealth WK camping their home point for 10 minutes.
Probably because the smart ones camped my home point and forced me to move. Knowing how relatively bad WK was in team fights.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
Are you assuming I am a new player? I have played since the game existed.
I did a couple matches on my rogue today just to see if what rogues are saying is true. I specced executioner, ran with 13k gear score and no enchantments, no armor or weapon enhancements.
I was able to stay in stealth or ITC easier than ever. I dealt more damage than ever before. The only thing that could kill me was, you guessed it, another rogue...
The game is not fun for anybody when 1 type of character is notably stronger than others. I understand rogues do not want to be nerfed, but let's be realistic here.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
If that's the case, this game was never fun.
We had obviously overpowered classes since mod 1.
Am I assuming you're new? With a statement like that, assumptions are no longer needed.
It would be nice if the devs didn't force meta shifts by throwing out nerfs like candy and actually took a logical approach to balancing classes. Tone down TR's damage and you're fine. It's not like permastealth is anything new. It's really only the PvE and casuals who are complaining about this.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.
1) just because things were not balanced before does not mean they should be unbalanced now
2) personal attacks are not appreciated and the OP asked for a civil discussion in the title of the thread
3) you agree rogues do too much damage
4) the devs have stated that they do not want rogues to be able to "permastealth"
5) changes to the rogue will happen
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
I find 'normal' TRs balanced like i find my instigator balanced. But these are exceptions. Rule in pvp are builds like insti sentinel for gwf or if a get it well, saboteur for TR.
The topic is specifically aimed at reading explanations from TR players and understand how to balance this thing if the devs attempt is not good.
the kind you describe sounds like a sab but that video makes it hard to tell since it isn't in english. problem is the current stealth rework might kill stealth completely except for the exe/scoundrel builds.
hard to tell gwf's apart except by how quick they die which unfortunately says nothing about their feat/paragon
i consider gf's block to be stronger since it doesn't break within 5 seconds and actually blocks all controls.
I understand. Just a note: instigator is pvp DPS hybrid. Capstone is based on hits taken. Works best in pvp for a gwf. In pve destro is way better as a capstone and pretty much both are squishy the same way.
Insti capstone is perfect for pvp but worst than destro purpose for pve.
This is fact. Bring me any vetran gwf we can discuss mechanics in depth. It,s simple:
Destro: gain stacks during unstoppable (hard against dodging players, easy against mons), stacks last a long time. Easy to keep it up in pve. Hard in pvp, you need gpf and no vorpal and good luck against TRs and HRs catching them enough in 4-8 seconds.
Insti: gain stacks taking hits (players hit fast. In pvp gwfs are under attack all the time. Mobs it quite slow and stacks last for a short time. Easy to have it up in pvp. Hard in pve)
Insti just lacks the half tank part. But hits hard. With some buffs would be viable. Sentinel intimidators are boooooooooring
btw: i see your point. Tbh i'm fine with everything if it solves the issue. Don't want TRs to get overnerfed. As a main.gwf i know the feeling of your class mechanic being destroyed.
It would be more like changing guardian mark, DC divine power and that 4th spell thing for cw.
no it's not you can use the stealth duration in and out stealth as you need.. the true stealth mekanic with cooldown is just like HR have.. don't claim TR stealth mekanic as cooldown mekanic thing
i was saying that the other class tab mekanic is counterable, not like TR current condition that only have 0.2s change to counter attack
with TR current condition don't you talk about TR have low suvivability stealth, 75% deflc sev, 4 long roll imune,ITC
yes TR is not OP in mod 4 but they are now
you mistaken me.. i am not talking about ITC, i am talking about with 20% tenacity = 20% control resist and 75% deflec sev give 75% control resist, gues what?? when deflec 20%+75%=95% control resist TR are almost imune when deflec
well this change was pop up from dev not me..
in mod 5 Dev change you dagger with katana.. and with that chesse mekanic.. then Dev realise that TR become OP, dev give solution with instead taking back TR katana they nerf stealth mekanic.. if you cut me deep then you need to show me your face.. fair enough for me
thanks for admiting that TR class is OP in this current condition..
now we step ahead from is TR are fine or not? to what need to be nerf from TR?
yes i think this is one of the solution too from TR user, give them ITC that work like unstopable.. let see how hard they gonna cry
look how many TR user join hand now to defend their class
because deep down you know that TR is OP in this mod 5, well i don't expect TR user to make thread discussion about how their class become OP. every TR just don't care about defending their class because they think this nerf will come but in the next mod.
now Dev wanna balance thing faster and they just panicking LOL
If that's the case, then why even have Stealth feature in the first place since every rogue attack will now essentially break it anyway....?
I guess they could always make the Daze/Stun duration from it at least 2 seconds longer too otherwise the attack will be pointless now.
No i think it's 2s effect after hit land
if you deal damage again before 2s end then yes you will visible for next 2s
but it's not stacking duration and not apply in DOT
you only visible the one you attack, to be clear this is not kill stealth mekanic but give other change to counter attack
Easy you get that bonus attack in your 1st hit
1st hit you can't see is called ambush but 2nd strike coming and you can't see there something wrong there
The amount of stupid biases in your HAMSTER of an argument is just mind boggling. In terms of mechanics your precious HRs shouldn't even HAVE stealth in the first place, as well as their version of stealth receiving:
■ free speed buff
■ unaffected by attacks in their duration
■ procs auto attack
Two of the above features require two different feats for the TR, the third is an option that doesn't exist with TRs. The only reason this kind of freebie is accepted is that it works as a Daily power with a cooldown (as if gaining AP is a hard thing for HRs). Of course, it's limited to a Daily power with a cooldown in the first place because its simply a utility power for you HRs. It's not a utility power for TRs -- it's an essential power that comprises much of both its survival and attack capability.
The very fact you're comparing the TR stealth to the HR stealth and coming up with ridiculous comments as if TR stealth should be in the same way as HR stealth is preposterous.
If you want the TR stealth to work in the same way, then the TRs need the very same survival mechanics which many people still complain as being broken OP -- namely, the deflect-wilds medicine + easymode DoT-lifesteal mechanics. We might as well also add in some of the TR powers granting free self heals as well. How does that sound?
Every class tab mechanic is counterable. For 2 out of 3 PvP build paths stealth isn't even an issue as it is sorely limited to repositioning and self-defense, as the very creator of this thread admitted. The only TR build path that allows continuous attacks despite being in stealth is the Saboteuer.
I, as well as many TRs have already warned you against your biased slander by just jumbling up all the strengths of all TR paths in one, imaginary "super TR" and then using that as a scarecrow to incessant criticism which isn't deserving for the TRs at all.
75% deflection is based on chance mechanics which do not have any supplementary mechanics as to increase survivability. In terms of deflection mechanics your oh-so-precious HRs are many times more straight-up OP in that your frickin' blessed stat distribution don't require any major sacrifices of major PvP stats at all. Same with GWFs. Even GFs.
The fighter classes easily achieve more than 40% straight-up damage resistance, and then have the luxury of easily achieving 30~40% deflection as a secondary, ADDITIONAL mode of defense. You HRs simply make use of ONE class feature that allows a woppin' 15% increased defelction chance albeit conditional, and then on top of that every defelction adds self heals.
You wanna see just how well the TR survives with deflection alone? Get someone you know and have him walk around in ITC as often as he can without entering stealth while 3~4 people focus fire on him. You think a 75% deflection severity means jack-shi* with the amount of damage people can put up with concentraterd fire nowadays? To bring down a competent TR with maybe 40k 75% deflection severity you simply need put up 160k damage with 3~4 people. The only reason TRs don't die so easily is because the added factor of stealth helps them limit the amount of focus fire on them.
Deflection alone don't mean jackshi*. I dare you to spec out of Combat HR so you don't use any Wilds Medicine, and spec out of Pathfinder so you don't have any crazy amounts of DoT-Lifesteal. And then see how much your deflection helps you even if its higher than some 50, 60% chance. Defelction is only a secondary means.
And any other classes are exactly the same in that with 50% base def. severity and 20% tenacity, they have 70%. You HRs usually tote around extra WIS as well which adds another 5~10% control resist. You know how long a 2.5 second Concussive Strike daze lasts on a HR with 80% control resist? It lasts 0.5 seconds. They don't even see it as a daze. They think a brief net-lag happened.
It's kinda comical since every time you mention problems with deflection, the exact same -- no, even worse -- applies to your HR as well. Is this some kind of self-criticism?
And yet you don't talk about the amount of shi*load of cheese your kind has been doing between the entirety of mod3~mod4.
The HR says: "Hit me all you want, I lifesteal/deflect-heal everything. Get me down to 20% HP I don't care. Enter stealth, gobble one potion, and then with the regen, lifesteal, deflect-heal I'm back to full health within 10 seconds. You're not"
A bloody biased double standard If I've seen any.
And give HRs wilds medicine that work like unstoppable. They'll throw a riot.
Who's panicking? Like said most every TR even in this thread are actually intrigued, if not supportive, of what the devs have mentioned. You got some serious issues of dyslexia.
The only thing the TRs are "joining hands" in this thread is against your types, biased TR-haters with serious L2P issues slandering every TR player with something that is either a blatant lie, or a figment of your own imagination.
Honestly, I don't blame you. With the HR players having been in the easy-mode environment so long, I'll bet it is terrifying to find that the TRs which your types could so easily step on on the prior mods, are now actually wuppin' your HAMSTER.
The irony being that the real HR players still present a significant challeneg to any TR. But of course, you don't. Even after the changes as the devs have set forth, you still won't.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So what changes could be made in place of this one, to allow counterattack against the Saboteur build (or whatever is the META you see in PvP everywhere now).
@the guy who said stealth is not the issue since players countered it in Mod3-4:
i was one of these guys. In module 4 you could fight a TR with a GWF even if it was tricky. Won't talk about module 3 cause well, Roar spamming builds got less problems. But there's an important difference.
In module 4 the rolls were 3 and of a regular lenght. The damage was a steady mediocre damage. These differences are quite important. The low damage gave you time to track the TR down if you got skills/ experience. The shorter rolls/ less rolls (3 rolls vs 4 rolls) allowed the GWF to effectively sprint to anticipate the enemy and, again, if you were good, catch the TR. In module 4, regular GWF (not intimidation monsters) vs TR was actually balanced and i stated it many times.
In module 5 a TR with Saboteur (?) build or whatever the META is, can take you down as fast as a HR (very short time to find him)
AND
thanks to longer rolls and the 1 more roll can nullify the chance you got in module 4 to reach them.
You see the whole picture? Devs gave the potential to not just deal way more damage (needed) but evade even more while even in module 4 TRs already got the ability to engage multiple enemies (strongest node holders along with combat HRs), while the direction should've been the huge buff in DPS and the limitations to stealth they initially announced.
So i'ts not like people who trained, like me, to fight permas in the last year, suddenly need to L2P.
It's simply that the Devs buffed mobility while keeping stealth the same, nullifying (at least for GWFs) the chances to catch a TR.
Add the fact that prones were removed and TRs can often nullify stuns with deflect+tenacity, and i'd love to see you fight with a GWF a current META PvP TR.
i think 2-4x damage against stealthed targets or double the radius to see a stealthed player would be interesting
^both for pvp only
OK - I have two TR's one being a WK SAB, and although no WK SAB's do not have great deflect, and pretty low control resist if you are talking plainly about perma then I do get it. And ideally would like to get to a stage that I think the Devs intended originally, that being the SAB's being able to go in and out of stealth upon a regular basis.
My own personal preference would be along the lines of having any encounter power refill the stealth bar, but this only works when visible. Hence the TR now has two options, use encounter from stealth for maximum effect (damage), or use as normal effect and regain stealth. Hence going the SAB route would be an in and out of stealth play style, not a perma one. Making this viable you would probably need to get rid of at least one stealth filling encounter, either BNS or SS - or both, but that would effect the other two trees to a degree.
But that would be my idea to counter perma's
All the best
I would recommend fragment between 11 and 17 minute
I dont know what else evidence do you need. TR is most unbalanced class since mod 2 immortal GWF. And when somebody will notice that the TR can shoot his most ever broken daily every 30 second?
PS. 10k from at-wil in GWF and GF. This is all sick.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Dont let me lose hopes
i think you don't get my point.. i just saying that you can't claim that TR have cooldown stealth mekanic, it's how TR mekanic work in this game and i think Dev want it like how it's works now and i am cool with it, my point is in this mod 5 with add more dodge, DPS, deflec sev TR become OP along with stealth mekanic is uncounterable in 0.2s change to even touch TR. even you already saying it too that TR power is OP in you prev post
+25% deflec sev is more cheese than wild med, i already explain it before and i will explain it again bellow
4 long roll wanna compare it with dazed dodge HR have?
HR have stealth well HR is scout too you know..?
HR don't have ITC you know..?
if you wanna talk about what other class have and don't have this discussion will not met it's end
every TR just saying that this stealth mekanic is counterable and other class just need to figure out, i was waiting here all the time want to know how you counter something you can't see then strike with full rotation of crit after that they roll and roll then in stealth mode again and have only 0.2s change to counter attack even when you catch them if your CC being deflec it's gonna be useless, i mean good TR that know their rotation and don't mess up. i am all ears here
until now the tips i got is about TR vs TR that is useless to the discussion
what i was point out is 100% crit change, 75% deflc sev but dev wanna nerf the mekanic of stealth.. so place you rage somewhere else
you wanna know how HR got high deflc? lone wolf buff it's depend on how many enemy around you.. read my prev post before i don't wanna make TR 75% deflc sev to be deleted.. what i want is change it to +5% deflc sev each enemy around max 25%. it's work just like lone wolf HR. HR got deflc change TR got deflc sev in the same way it's fair enough or maybe change it to 25% DR when deflec so no +25% control resist
you blabering about other cheese.. like TR don't have high crit change and recovery easly
here i gonna explain it again why +25% deflv sev is more cheese than wild med
let's say HR take 10k damage with 4k HP when deflec 50% then HR will just drop dead without even able to self heal
let's say TR take 10k damage with 4k HP when deflec 75% then TR will still kicking with 1.5k HP and will be a lot of maybe roll steatlh, use pot,artifact, running take pot, got heal by DC, even can kill the opponent
let's say HR take 5k damage with max hp 30k when deflec HR got regen 2.5% * 30k HP = 750 HP, to get this 750 HP HR need to wait 15s and max being stack to 10, and don't forget we only can stack it 1 per sec
let's say TR take 5k damage when deflec then TR got 1250 reduce damage instant, no need to wait 15s, no boundary how many this can be stack, no need to make 30k max hp, no boundry can happen more than once per sec
and don't forget about 25% control resist TR got when deflc
yes every class can stack tenacity and deflc stat and have 50% deflc sev, the only problem here TR got that +25% deflc sev instant
seriusly i think you need to move on about prev mod, it's good that Dev wanna change faster and not gonna wait until next mod to make PVP balance.. think about when mod 6 coming and TR got nerf badly then there is new rework class that become OP..
what is the glory there to dominated PVP with your class if your class got title of become OP? unless you are wicked player that don't wanna equal fair PVP
"I'll bet it is terrifying to find that the TRs which your types could so easily step on on the prior mods, are now actually wuppin' your HAMSTER." and thank again to mention again that TR is OP in this mod
L2P issues? then please tell me how the tactic..? pick the best class you think more efficient to counter TR in this current condition? not TR vs TR or TR vs DC issues.. i talking about equal GS and experince.. give me something make sense
if you wanna discusion give something like math calculation, vid, screen shot don't just blabering nonsense again and again with rage because your class will getting nerf, i think you need to check up you blood presurre this is game you know and health is priority LOL
If they didn't want rogues to permastealth, they're almost a handful of mods late.
Why do you think they're getting too much attention? Damage.
If TR's are doing too much damage, what's the logical solution? Easy, nerf stealth.
Now tell me the devs know what they're doing.
Tell me you know what you're doing.
What's the difference between:
A) Not being able to use an ability because time is ticking until you're able to activate it again and
Answer: Nothing.
Shut up.
So is TR.
Have you tried... not playing grab-*** 1v1 with a TR camping your home point?
I must've missed the memo where timing attacks was hard. Spamming dodge doesn't make you immortal.
Also, only one paragon has ITC.
Also, historically, TR always had low survivability. Why do you think WK was so rare before this mod? No ITC.
Then why aren't you complaining about the relevant issues?
Remember permastealth in mod 4? Remember when we did lower damage?
Remember permastealth in mod 5? Remember when we did higher damage?
Jeez, I wonder what changed.
Obviously we need to nerf stealth because lol that'll fix everything.
Know what's better than that?
Not getting hit.
There, I've solved all of your survivability problems.
I'll send you a bill.
TRs are using builds and tactics that are several mods old but now they do more damage and people are complaining.
Obvious solution: Nerf stealth.
I hope to God you're never in any managerial position. With logic like this, you'd be driving an aircraft on the highway.
The fact that you've written a small novel complaining about damage and somehow justified nerfing the stealth mechanic is baffling enough.
Now you ask what would need to be changed?
Obviously we need to nerf movement speed.
Considering I've played without ITC for over a year with moderate success, go ahead.
Look how many TRs asked for buffs and fixes for years.
You obviously don't understand balance. Here's your logic:
TRs are doing a lot of damage, nerf stealth!
CWs are doing a lot of damage, nerf movement speed!
DCs heal for too much, nerf armorpen!
You lost your rights to post. Uninstall.
Go Cryptic!
PS - I quit.