Wow, you really can't figure it out. Sicarius and other "Top TRs" (cracks me up every time) go right for the most OP build they can find. The fact that he only plays in pre-mades becomes irrelevant because his build is just as OP to other BiS/maxed characters as it is to people on page 50 or pg 100, etc.
It is the SABOTEUR build. It's broken. A few tweaks here or there and it will be fine. Any honest TR who cares about balance is more than happy to admit it. Just don't lump all TRs into this conversation. Ignorance about how class mechanics work and which tree/feat they are rooted in is what causes more problems than there was to begin with.
I can't say which build is cause i do not play TR but i already stated i am talking about one particular build, the current OP build and not the whole TR class. Just i can't every time say "these specific TRs". I say at the beginning of the discussion i'm referring to the OP build and then talk about TRs in PvP. Also, it does not really change much saying which build it is unless you are actually giving feedback. In general discussion you obviously talk about the peak a class can reach and then point the finger at specific powers and sinergies. For example, i play PvP Instigator, but i'm well aware that when a player talks about PvP GWF he's usually referring to intimidation sentinels, which is the META for GWF even after the nerf, or at least the build most players use cause it's low risk/ high reward, while instigator is high risk/ high reward.
So since 99% of PvP TRs use the OP build, it's pretty much implied that we're discussing that build. Then i say which sinergy seems the cause of current PvP TRs immortality.
i dont know what to say
trickster damage or CC is not really out of control, what people will always complain about is stealth (perma , semi-perma or just 2 seconds does not matter, people complain and always will ).
One thing is sure: people saying "you need to learn to survive out of stealth" dont have played TR a single day.
It's impossible, once out of stealth you are dead.
Stealth is wrongly implemented in the game? No-stealth gameplay is implemented even worse.
TR would needed a way greater rework, something we asked to but didnt received.
What i would really like is a more stealthy combat ranger with cc and gap closer and relatively low cooldows; an enhanced and maybe more strong combat HR without procs which lead to unfair healing capabilities.
too late
it's not like some tunes cannot solve the 2-3 cheese in the actual TR builds but it would not matter
PEOPLE COMPLAIN
You know, the "if we come out of stealth we're dead" argument is getting ridiculous now cause it's not like you need to stay out of range 99,999999% of the time or you are dead. What i said is that it's ******ed OP to be able to stay in stealth forever before attacking, hitting your enemy dealing lots of damage or dealing DoT during stealth (SoD) then make a couple of long rolls in immunity while going stealth again and then stay out of range forever due to the ******ed mobility TRs have these days thanks to overbuffed rolls+ high mobility during stealth+ perma or semi-perma stealth.
Cause you know, the enemy must have a window of opportunity to counter attack and, right now, there's not such opportunity with the META build or whatever it is causing this mess. As i said, in module 3-4 you could catch a TR in stealth cause the rolls were limited and you could out-run him if you could figure out his pattern while he was evading during stealth. Now, you can't cause of absurdly long dodge rolls which are close to being spammable and, along with high mobility, make TRs flawless kiting machines. Cause not even maxed out sprint on GWF can keep up with their movements.
It's quite simple: you can't go back to stealth right away after landing a huge DPS burst. You have the dodges, you use them to avoid CC and damage, like any other class. After a reasonable amount of time you can go back to stealth. You can also daze the enemy and the enemy can dodge the dazes. There are plenty of tools like the almost-rooting slow-down move i see sometimes and the dazes.
Something you actually need to land and a window where you actually need to dodge like any other class does.
Want more deflect? More HP? It's down to balance. Would still be better since ability to fully avoid damage 99,9% (100% with latency) of the time>>>than any kind of tankiness. In fact, BiS 80k HPs GFs (tanks) die more than a 40k HPs TR. Which is quite absurd if you ask me.
i dont know what to say
trickster damage or CC is not really out of control, what people will always complain about is stealth (perma , semi-perma or just 2 seconds does not matter, people complain and always will ).
One thing is sure: people saying "you need to learn to survive out of stealth" dont have played TR a single day.
It's impossible, once out of stealth you are dead.
Stealth is wrongly implemented in the game? No-stealth gameplay is implemented even worse.
TR would needed a way greater rework, something we asked to but didnt received.
What i would really like is a more stealthy combat ranger with cc and gap closer and relatively low cooldows; an enhanced and maybe more strong combat HR without procs which lead to unfair healing capabilities.
Your argument would have been right if.. TR really had the worst defense. Out of steath TR still have better defense than CW, Better defense than SW, and a different but nearly same defense lvl as HR all that with out stealth. TR actually the only class where you don't even need to up you HP before going in PVP. So yes out of stealth you are dead because unlike the 6 other class Tr doesn't require to get 40 k HP to not be one killed. All class (maybe except GF) have a 3-5 second life spaw in PVP if they do not up PV. Also the best avantage of stealth is the capacity that you canno't be locked, mean the opponent canno't even launch a random hit, the power simply not accessible. They made an error in v4 with CW and the too much froze control and piercing damage from assaillant. they came again with it on V5 with TR, but TR have also way better defense mechanism than CW for PVP so result is even worst since 1 you don,t even see the tr coming so you don't even have possibility to dodge control since you are not even aware he is here. The worst probably that unlike all the 6 other class TR actually do not require a specific build to be highly competitive.
Your argument would have been right if.. TR really had the worst defense. Out of steath TR still have better defense than CW, Better defense than SW, and a different but nearly same defense lvl as HR all that with out stealth. TR actually the only class where you don't even need to up you HP before going in PVP.
Before Mod 5 all a TR had out of stealth was modest levels of deflect and one of the worst dodges in the game. Apart from one extreme build reliant on BiS gear and enchants they were made of tissue paper. No self-heals. No CC. Low DR. Low mobility.
It's different now in Mod 5 and that would be perfectly OK if permastalth had been made more difficult.
So, rayrdan, do you say that TR is fine how he is right now?
Because if cc and dmg of TRs is fine right now, and stealth is it also, yeah… maybe other classes have just learn to play, right?
Why are you fooling yourself?
And to the people saying that it is just the "current" OP build, get real. Ofc players will spec to the full potential of their class. At this very peak of class potential the balance must happen. I have never seen wk TRs, instigator gwfs, archer HRs etc. in serious premades before mod5.
Just because some feat trees arent used and some specific is uber OP means that the class is balanced.
I dont care for the "self nerfing player" who just pick a sub optimal spec. The current top op build has to be considered the place where balance has to happen.
This exactly. I do not expect people to self-restrain, I will always use the optimal build for the class I enjoy. So there is no blame in that. The class/build needs fixed.
Ya the "out of stealth and we are dead" argument only applies because players get used to going into stealth as a crutch. Forget defensive moves or tactics, just go back into stealth. When I stopped playing TR, I found myself freaking out a little and wanting to hit that tab button. Then just learning how to play defense like any other class.
43k hp, 2300 defense, 1800 deflect 35% deflect
i can stand 1 rotation if i m lucky
i dont know what you are playing but i feel way more confortable with my HR
But what's the point in suggesting a ridiculous fix to a ridiculous problem? Permastealth needs to be addressed but this is not the way to do it. It cripples non-perma builds as well as perma.
Rayrdan has some good suggestions. Changing Gloaming Cut to deplete stealth or as least not refill it would go a long way to fixing permastealth; a longer CD on either Concussive Strikes or Dazing Strike would address perma-daze (or even reduced daze duration in PvP only); Bloodbath needs to stop multi-proccing Shadowy Opportunity. As OP as TR seems it should be relatively easy to fix without wholesale nerfs.
You are probably right, but what I suggested is simple and doesn't change pve TR, pve being one reason why pvp balance is so tricky (no pun intended :P ) No stealth on node is extreme but simple. I really think nerfs for pvp reasons, should be node-based so they really only affect domination play.
The whole thing is about removing something that makes pvp less fun. Even when gwf unstoppable was godmode, you could still kite a gwf way off node, simply by trolling the HAMSTER out of the gwf player who would get frustrated that he couldn't kill you despite you bringing his health down to 25% twice in a minute or so. The player would get mad and chase you. Being dazed by an invisible opponent and then killed while you are helpless...nothing that can be done about that. Can only try to be difficult to target by constantly jumping and moving around especially when you hear that "stealth swish" sound effect.
43k hp, 2300 defense, 1800 deflect 35% deflect
i can stand 1 rotation if i m lucky
i dont know what you are playing but i feel way more confortable with my HR
gwf, cw, gf, tr, sw (lower level sw) and hr. I respeced my hr to the "optimal build" but am soo tempted to spec it again back to the hybrid archer/combat build that I actually enjoyed playing.
43k hp, 2300 defense, 1800 deflect 35% deflect
i can stand 1 rotation if i m lucky
i dont know what you are playing but i feel way more confortable with my HR
that mainly the case for 4 class, HR, TR ,CW SW. Among those 4 CW is worst, TR only get 25% damage when deflect, HR can eventualy get self healing and SW have run. I, m pretty sure that even if tomorrow TR don't have stealth they will be still able to play and on the top of that you play HR and TR, look like you only goes on overpowered class exclusivly. (ho mostly forgot, 35 % deflect for a class at 1800 point mainly a big defense event if it not work all the time. 1800 point on CW more or less 12% deflect. And Tr still have dodge.
43k hp, 2300 defense, 1800 deflect 35% deflect
i can stand 1 rotation if i m lucky
i dont know what you are playing but i feel way more confortable with my HR
Raydan i got it that at least with the build you use and most likely against 20k premades you can stand 1 rotation at best. But then, let's see:
- now you have the DPS potential to take down any class fast with high burst
- the chance an enemy can catch you are so slim they are close to 0 taking latency into account
- even if by chance the enemy catches you and you die, you have soulforged. This enchant on many classes usually means you just die later. On a TR it means you can roll away into stealth and pretty much go recover out of healing depression or go back to your almost invulnerable rotation, since a lucky strike will hardly happen twice.
As i said, being virtually squishy but in practice out of range/ sight 99,9% of the time, 100% thanks to latency (aka immortal unless the enemy is lucky or you make a mistake) is way better than being "tanky" (die slowly, and the enemy can deal damage and still kill you, even if slowly).
You might have high dodging abilities but something the enemy can counter if skilled. Right now you have tools over tools piled up in a way that as i said above and others said before me, the only ways to die are:
- group gangbang and even so, TRs can usually kite quite a bit
- your mistake
- lucky hit from the enemy
and that is exactly what you see in the kill/ death ratios in leaderboard. TRs are virtually squishy, in reality the most survivable class of the whole game by far. While being also a strong burst DPS class (again, cause you're supposed to be squishy).
Your survivability also comes at pretty much no risk or low risk (stealth). It's not even like you need to try hard to time your dodges or anything.
In past modules and in particular module 3-4 i stated multiple times how stealth was not an issue cause the damage was a slow DoT and you could counter it with skills and experience. It's not like that anymore cause damage now is high and the unneeded defensive buffs made every counter useless. At least talking from a fighter point of view. On my HR can still land a thorn ward on the node and my DC now can tank with empowered astral shield if i don't get killed in between and manage to dodge the attacks (else would be dead meat fast, at least at my GS).
No, damage is pretty much fine if perma stealth or semiperma stealth goes away as devs promised.
Before module 5 you could pressure a TR. You could follow him when he would roll away from ITC into stealth, and if you got experience and skill, you could catch him usually. Even so, BiS TRs could pretty much tank a rotation and disappear again even when in trouble
it was already easy to combine ITC, dodge rolls and movement speed to almost never die, but it was possible to face TRs cause the damage was very slow over time and you could pressure.
Now, TRs got:
- even easier stealth with right build, so they still are invisible most of the time.
- more damage
- longer rolls and 1 more roll with right build
Point 2 and 3 are what shifted the class from being a powerful node-holder into being an unkillable killing machine. TR can still stay in stealth as much as before, but this powerful tool now has also added DPS so the enemy has very little time to look for the stealthed TR. Finally, the longer rolls and increased rolls make it impossible to pressure the TR cause even with all boons and stuff for sprint, and 1k movement stat, it's still not enough to keep up with a TR basically rolling for crazy distances every 3 seconds and moving faster than any other class (base movement speed) the rest of the time.
TRs must stay in stealth, attack from stealth with their new buffed burst DPS, and then be vulnerable like any other class to a comeback. Which means, for example, not being able to return in stealth right away or chain immunities, dazes and stealth erasing any window of opportunity for the enemy to attack. Which is what happens now.
After his burst, the TR must rely on skills and dodges but being visible, not going back to stealth right away while spamming insanely long rolls and then bunnyhop at 2x your basic movement speed, mixing rolls here and there whenever someone get close to him.
If stealth has to stay as it is now, then go back to 3 short rolls and slower movement speed during stealth (faster movement is stealth is nonsense).
If stealth goes and the TR is visible for a while after he attacks, then dodge rolls and movement speed can stay the same.
But you can't have both or you get unkillable, and in fact TRs right now have absurd kill/ death ratios in leaderboard (like 1000 kills/ 30 deaths and so on) and in domination games (now you often see 20-0/ 20-1/ 15-0 scores from TRs. Even if they are undergeared and weak but know how to play the right build, they never die).
You know what is the problem? people like you blaming the class instead of gear score most of the elite TR now has 22k to 25k gs and they are not many but they do have 10k to 12k power and those elite TR you will never win if you have low gear score same goes to all class with above 20k gs the only difference now is TR can fight back although we still cant win 1v1 with an HR most of the time. Before a 20k TR can easily be killed by a 12k HR, CW, GF, and GWF but let us not forget the majority of the TR is between 12k to 17k I for my self has 17k GS but my damage to gwf, GF, and HR is just 100 to 300 damage (atwill) and (encounter 2k to 4k damage how you gonna kill an HR with high regen and a GWF and GF who has 60k HP with regen as well. Just think when a TR hit you above 19k damage that means that TR has a high gear score or you have low gear score simple as that.
Absolutely not true. My toons are 19k and 17k and I'm always getting two-shotted by 11k-13k TRs. Can't stun them or disrupt them, and can rarely find them. Half the time, hit for hit they'll crush me.
20k TRs 1 shot me and I never see them coming, so...there's not even a fight.
With the extra run speed, there is not chance for escape, stealthed I can run faster then a plus 3 mount.
Hey, hope you're still around: one of the reasons that I love playing my new TR is that she's just so fast! But I'm not that fast. What build are you using? The fastest that I can think of is using the +40% and +15% Passives, along with the +25% default which only gets me to 80% run speed while stealthed (and it doesn't have Tencaious Concealment, so I actually can't use that, but still ^.^). Where are you getting the rest of the run speed? Not trolling, really serious here; gotta go fast!
On topic:
This does sound like an argument against the Sab path, and I'm pretty darn sure that Rayrdan uses Sab. I'm unsure why he's complaining about being squishy, honestly, since Sab is really ridiculous right now, but whatever.
Instead of making TR stealth not work on node (which is an interest idea, but I think that it's overboard and would feel really bad for TRs), what if TRs just appeared for like .25 seconds when they attacked from stealth? That would be a pretty Sab-specific nerf and would solve a lot of the "I'm getting killed by invisible things and my teammates can't help me" thing that I understand feels really bad.
I just stopped playing my HR and the game period, and came back to see if there was more parity between the classes. That HR was my pride and joy up to that point. The game play and challenge of the class was gone and so was I.
I feel for you. MOD4 and 5 have driven me further and further away. After dallies I press K, stare at the Queue for PVP button, then decide to go rake leaves or wash dishes.
I disagree...the situation with TR is beyond anything else. What I am asking for is not a class to be nerfed but rather the domination game to be very slightly altered to not allow for sch an extreme advantage by a single class.
LOL! The same sentiments ("beyond anything else") have been communicated about other classes during other module releases. I remember CWs being discussed as being able to take out entire teams in PvP, also the HR, GWF, and GF. They all had their day.
Again, it is the same story, different class. This has been going on for over a year.
Just learn to adjust - the problem is that it takes time (study) and patience, which many gamers don't seem to have.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
My 14k TR did just fine in PVP in MODs 2-4. I averaged a 10-1 kill/death ratio, usually with 20+ kills. I didn't have anything remotely like perma stealth. I used Dazing Strike, Lashing Blade and Deft Strike, with Shock Ex and Whirlwind slotted. I Dazed them from behind, Lashed them and landed a few Sly. They'd try to get some distance so I'd Deft, land a few more Sly. They'd create distance again and I could usually finish them off with Cloud (which used to have a stacking buff).
Fighting groups I'd try to land Dazing on two or three ppl, find out immediately who was squishier and take them out, dodge, Deft, dodge, Cloud, and on and on. Usually did pretty well. ...of course w/ groups I'd drop from above if I could to keep my Stealth on hand for evasion.
All that to say, I was on the receiving end of heinous trash talk for being OP and having 'pera-stunn' (Dazing Strike - lol). This mostly during MOD3 when I played TR the most. If I still played my TR...OMG--I can't imagine.
LOL! The same sentiments ("beyond anything else") have been communicated about other classes during other module releases. I remember CWs being discussed as being able to take out entire teams in PvP, also the HR, GWF, and GF. They all had their day.
Again, it is the same story, different class. This has been going on for over a year.
Just learn to adjust - the problem is that it takes time (study) and patience, which many gamers don't seem to have.
at least from the past there was possibility for team to counter. CW beginning V4 was doing high damage but was still weak and was able to be killed in team and also was still weak again control. V3 GWF even as tanky as they were, some other class were able to handle it in team. same for V3-V4 HR. SO from past once you were going on higher lvl, some team still were able to handle the op part. actual TR here on opposite, doesn't involve any thing and even a correct geared TR can make a party team practicaly alone if there is no TR on the opposite side. Honestly the best ratio of kill/ killed before actual TR was on V3 HR (only one player with something like 25-30 kill /1 killed) and rest was at beast 10 for 1. (if i remember correctly i saw something like a neraly 100 for 1 ratio and lot are 20-30 ratio with actual TR )
It is a bit late since the point was raised a couple pages back, but the idea of brining up KDRs like Sic as proof of BiS TR being OP is not a good example. The guy had a 100-2 win/loss ratio last I checked. It isn't because he is OP, it is because he only runs with the best of the best, and isn't going to be running into many if any other teams that could ever compete. I solo queued into a full premade against him and Absolute not too long ago, and I don't know if my team was a partial premade or what, but they couldn't do anything. Regardless, I would still run out and try to mess with them or get a kill, which resulted in some more deaths, but ultimately I couldn't do anything since they were all scrambling to try to get the kill for themselves and their healer was so close. I'm sure, especially based on the win/loss ratio, that this type of thing happens a lot where there isn't really any competition to be concerned of and they can just farm wins/kills from people who can't compete. Also, being fully potted/buffed with a team that also does the same makes a big difference as well, rather than simply BiS gear, which is something that not everyone does. Lastly, when looking at anyone's stats aside from these considerations, there are still methods which allow for kicking of other players in PvP which is abused to make some individuals appear to have better stats than they should.
It is a bit late since the point was raised a couple pages back, but the idea of brining up KDRs like Sic as proof of BiS TR being OP is not a good example. The guy had a 100-2 win/loss ratio last I checked. It isn't because he is OP, it is because he only runs with the best of the best, and isn't going to be running into many if any other teams that could ever compete. I solo queued into a full premade against him and Absolute not too long ago, and I don't know if my team was a partial premade or what, but they couldn't do anything. Regardless, I would still run out and try to mess with them or get a kill, which resulted in some more deaths, but ultimately I couldn't do anything since they were all scrambling to try to get the kill for themselves and their healer was so close. I'm sure, especially based on the win/loss ratio, that this type of thing happens a lot where there isn't really any competition to be concerned of and they can just farm wins/kills from people who can't compete. Also, being fully potted/buffed with a team that also does the same makes a big difference as well, rather than simply BiS gear, which is something that not everyone does. Lastly, when looking at anyone's stats aside from these considerations, there are still methods which allow for kicking of other players in PvP which is abused to make some individuals appear to have better stats than they should.
the stats also involve as far as i remember result in IWD PVP and PVP gauntlym. So even if you goes with teamate, you can't expressly always goes on a side which allow you to never be killed. the point your saying is ok for a good ratio not for this kind of ratio (or you will also find his teammate on same ratio if it was only team involve)
Ya the "out of stealth and we are dead" argument only applies because players get used to going into stealth as a crutch. Forget defensive moves or tactics, just go back into stealth. When I stopped playing TR, I found myself freaking out a little and wanting to hit that tab button. Then just learning how to play defense like any other class.
I never played perma. It bored me. I tried every conceivable method to stay alive as a 'combat TR'. Ultimately they all failed. And as you can see from my sig I play several classes and did not suffer from not being used to having to work for my survival.
TR now has the tools to survive outside of stealth IMO, which is why I'm playing Scoundrel. I don't even slot SS so I rarely have stealth available as a defence since I burn it for an alpha strike. But this was not the case before and no amount of revisionism will change that.
You are probably right, but what I suggested is simple and doesn't change pve TR, pve being one reason why pvp balance is so tricky (no pun intended :P ) No stealth on node is extreme but simple. I really think nerfs for pvp reasons, should be node-based so they really only affect domination play.
The whole thing is about removing something that makes pvp less fun. Even when gwf unstoppable was godmode, you could still kite a gwf way off node, simply by trolling the HAMSTER out of the gwf player who would get frustrated that he couldn't kill you despite you bringing his health down to 25% twice in a minute or so. The player would get mad and chase you. Being dazed by an invisible opponent and then killed while you are helpless...nothing that can be done about that. Can only try to be difficult to target by constantly jumping and moving around especially when you hear that "stealth swish" sound effect.
I understand the motivation, but banishing an entire class from stepping on the node is a little extreme. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.
If you want a node-based solution something along the lines of giving the node beacon some of the properties of the Lantern artifact might work. An aura that makes stealthed characters easier to detect while they're on the node. That way stealth could still be used for the feats that depend on it but it would be much easier to detect and counter TRs.
No, damage is pretty much fine if perma stealth or semiperma stealth goes away as devs promised.
Before module 5 you could pressure a TR. You could follow him when he would roll away from ITC into stealth, and if you got experience and skill, you could catch him usually. Even so, BiS TRs could pretty much tank a rotation and disappear again even when in trouble
it was already easy to combine ITC, dodge rolls and movement speed to almost never die, but it was possible to face TRs cause the damage was very slow over time and you could pressure.
Now, TRs got:
- even easier stealth with right build, so they still are invisible most of the time.
- more damage
- longer rolls and 1 more roll with right build
Point 2 and 3 are what shifted the class from being a powerful node-holder into being an unkillable killing machine. TR can still stay in stealth as much as before, but this powerful tool now has also added DPS so the enemy has very little time to look for the stealthed TR. Finally, the longer rolls and increased rolls make it impossible to pressure the TR cause even with all boons and stuff for sprint, and 1k movement stat, it's still not enough to keep up with a TR basically rolling for crazy distances every 3 seconds and moving faster than any other class (base movement speed) the rest of the time.
TRs must stay in stealth, attack from stealth with their new buffed burst DPS, and then be vulnerable like any other class to a comeback. Which means, for example, not being able to return in stealth right away or chain immunities, dazes and stealth erasing any window of opportunity for the enemy to attack. Which is what happens now.
After his burst, the TR must rely on skills and dodges but being visible, not going back to stealth right away while spamming insanely long rolls and then bunnyhop at 2x your basic movement speed, mixing rolls here and there whenever someone get close to him.
If stealth has to stay as it is now, then go back to 3 short rolls and slower movement speed during stealth (faster movement is stealth is nonsense).
If stealth goes and the TR is visible for a while after he attacks, then dodge rolls and movement speed can stay the same.
But you can't have both or you get unkillable, and in fact TRs right now have absurd kill/ death ratios in leaderboard (like 1000 kills/ 30 deaths and so on) and in domination games (now you often see 20-0/ 20-1/ 15-0 scores from TRs. Even if they are undergeared and weak but know how to play the right build, they never die).
I'm a 23k gear score PVP build CW with 42k HP, I just been easily kill 3 times (in around 5 to 6 sec) by two 8K stealth TR (in pair) and I couldn’t move (daze) all of the fights.
The fight before, an 8K stealth TR took me 36K before I was finally able to kill him (23K CW nearly survive an 8K Stealth TR hello!!!!). Several 11 to 12k stealth Tr hit me with Dazing Strike follow 4 to 5 second later by Smoke bomb and disappeared for around 5 second and come back with Dazing Strike and Smoke Bomb again and while I was daze all the fight, from the beginning, took all my 42K HP and killed me.
10K to 16K TR are doing around 39K DPS with Lashing Blade (an encounter!!!!!) that DPS has to be nerf 70% down.
Smoke Bomb daze you for 5 second and even if you go out still poisoning you for around 29K HP (an encounter!!!!!) it dazing time should be nerf 50% (Dazing Strike also) on players and DPS buy 60%.
All CW control spells time are much shorter when use on other players so how come TR daze are lasting so loooooooong????
I could continue like that for all the GOD MODE 5 TR received thanks for destroying our game.
I have 3 rank 9's for utility and one 8, sash of charisma, 2k deflect and the scoundrel path gave me some extra deflect, in steal I'm at 54% deflect. I use both class features, sneak attack and skillfull inflitrator, and the feats movement feats, I was fast before mod 5, not sure what changed but now it's crazy, I was tempted to take the sab tree just for the extra run buffs to see how fast I could top, without being in stealth I am only slightly slower then a plus 3, but even if they are a little head, if I want to get someone in a hurry I hit, DC artifact, Lurkers assault and I can out run anything really, I haven't used a mount since MOD 5, 2k defense, I have the boons to that grant extra defense in pvp 33% DR.
LOL! The same sentiments ("beyond anything else") have been communicated about other classes during other module releases. I remember CWs being discussed as being able to take out entire teams in PvP, also the HR, GWF, and GF. They all had their day.
Again, it is the same story, different class. This has been going on for over a year.
Just learn to adjust - the problem is that it takes time (study) and patience, which many gamers don't seem to have.
Is it a joke man, I played at least over 500 1x 1 TR encounters since module 5 and the conclusion is that there is absolutly nothing to do againt stelth TR GOD MOD
that mainly the case for 4 class, HR, TR ,CW SW. Among those 4 CW is worst, TR only get 25% damage when deflect, HR can eventualy get self healing and SW have run. I, m pretty sure that even if tomorrow TR don't have stealth they will be still able to play and on the top of that you play HR and TR, look like you only goes on overpowered class exclusivly. (ho mostly forgot, 35 % deflect for a class at 1800 point mainly a big defense event if it not work all the time. 1800 point on CW more or less 12% deflect. And Tr still have dodge.
Dexterity ( same for CWs) and Charisma give Deflection, for a TR.
Wisdom give Recharge Speed and Action Points gain, for a CW.
Is it a joke man, I played at least over 500 1x 1 TR encounters since module 5 and the conclusion is that there is absolutly nothing to do againt stelth TR GOD MOD
There are a lot of unskilled TRs running at the moment just because this is the overpowered flavor of the module class.
However, I have seen good TRs who just killed a GWF and a CW from Chocolate Shoppe 2v1.
You guys still think its fair how a TR just killed one of the best PVP GWF and the best PVP CW 2v1?
There are a lot of unskilled TRs running at the moment just because this is the overpowered flavor of the module class.
However, I have seen good TRs who just killed a GWF and a CW from Chocolate Shoppe 2v1.
You guys still think its fair how a TR just killed one of the best PVP GWF and the best PVP CW 2v1?
Being in CS does not mean you are good. It means that you enjoy FotM builds and have a lot of money/knows how to exploit.
Actually not many at all in these elitist PvP guilds have any skill at all. They just go for the build they can abuse the most, stacks it x5 and pots up running around in their exploited ad gear and voila, they think they are good ^^
Being in CS does not mean you are good. It means that you enjoy FotM builds and have a lot of money/knows how to exploit.
Actually not many at all in these elitist PvP guilds have any skill at all. They just go for the build they can abuse the most, stacks it x5 and pots up running around in their exploited ad gear and voila, they think they are good ^^
*flame shield on*
and even all of that is not enough
you need a bit of push on leaderbord if u know what i mean
I PVP a lot and as a CW, who is reasonably geared, I have noticed that Trickster rogues have become much much more deadly than in the previous module. It's really not fun being killed by a one shot. This is with wearing full purified gear with a damage resistance of 34%, especially given the rogue that did it had a miserably low arp. They are dominating in PVP now and frankly it is becoming boring.
For example, if one is not killed by a lashing blade then smoke bomb reduces HP down to half and then they go into stealth. I'm not even talking about high geared TRs either.
When they go out of stealth, it becomes more even, but when they one shot or two shot you then you know something is not quite right.
Whilst I do not advocate taking away their stealth, I really think the damage or the feats need to be looked out because they are OP right now.
Actually not many at all in these elitist PvP guilds have any skill at all. They just go for the build they can abuse the most, stacks it x5 and pots up running around in their exploited ad gear and voila, they think they are good ^^
*flame shield on*
Don't say that! Now you hurt their feelings Now they have to convince themselves again that they actually have a bit of skills
Comments
I can't say which build is cause i do not play TR but i already stated i am talking about one particular build, the current OP build and not the whole TR class. Just i can't every time say "these specific TRs". I say at the beginning of the discussion i'm referring to the OP build and then talk about TRs in PvP. Also, it does not really change much saying which build it is unless you are actually giving feedback. In general discussion you obviously talk about the peak a class can reach and then point the finger at specific powers and sinergies. For example, i play PvP Instigator, but i'm well aware that when a player talks about PvP GWF he's usually referring to intimidation sentinels, which is the META for GWF even after the nerf, or at least the build most players use cause it's low risk/ high reward, while instigator is high risk/ high reward.
So since 99% of PvP TRs use the OP build, it's pretty much implied that we're discussing that build. Then i say which sinergy seems the cause of current PvP TRs immortality.
You know, the "if we come out of stealth we're dead" argument is getting ridiculous now cause it's not like you need to stay out of range 99,999999% of the time or you are dead. What i said is that it's ******ed OP to be able to stay in stealth forever before attacking, hitting your enemy dealing lots of damage or dealing DoT during stealth (SoD) then make a couple of long rolls in immunity while going stealth again and then stay out of range forever due to the ******ed mobility TRs have these days thanks to overbuffed rolls+ high mobility during stealth+ perma or semi-perma stealth.
Cause you know, the enemy must have a window of opportunity to counter attack and, right now, there's not such opportunity with the META build or whatever it is causing this mess. As i said, in module 3-4 you could catch a TR in stealth cause the rolls were limited and you could out-run him if you could figure out his pattern while he was evading during stealth. Now, you can't cause of absurdly long dodge rolls which are close to being spammable and, along with high mobility, make TRs flawless kiting machines. Cause not even maxed out sprint on GWF can keep up with their movements.
It's quite simple: you can't go back to stealth right away after landing a huge DPS burst. You have the dodges, you use them to avoid CC and damage, like any other class. After a reasonable amount of time you can go back to stealth. You can also daze the enemy and the enemy can dodge the dazes. There are plenty of tools like the almost-rooting slow-down move i see sometimes and the dazes.
Something you actually need to land and a window where you actually need to dodge like any other class does.
Want more deflect? More HP? It's down to balance. Would still be better since ability to fully avoid damage 99,9% (100% with latency) of the time>>>than any kind of tankiness. In fact, BiS 80k HPs GFs (tanks) die more than a 40k HPs TR. Which is quite absurd if you ask me.
Your argument would have been right if.. TR really had the worst defense. Out of steath TR still have better defense than CW, Better defense than SW, and a different but nearly same defense lvl as HR all that with out stealth. TR actually the only class where you don't even need to up you HP before going in PVP. So yes out of stealth you are dead because unlike the 6 other class Tr doesn't require to get 40 k HP to not be one killed. All class (maybe except GF) have a 3-5 second life spaw in PVP if they do not up PV. Also the best avantage of stealth is the capacity that you canno't be locked, mean the opponent canno't even launch a random hit, the power simply not accessible. They made an error in v4 with CW and the too much froze control and piercing damage from assaillant. they came again with it on V5 with TR, but TR have also way better defense mechanism than CW for PVP so result is even worst since 1 you don,t even see the tr coming so you don't even have possibility to dodge control since you are not even aware he is here. The worst probably that unlike all the 6 other class TR actually do not require a specific build to be highly competitive.
It's different now in Mod 5 and that would be perfectly OK if permastalth had been made more difficult.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
This exactly. I do not expect people to self-restrain, I will always use the optimal build for the class I enjoy. So there is no blame in that. The class/build needs fixed.
i can stand 1 rotation if i m lucky
i dont know what you are playing but i feel way more confortable with my HR
You are probably right, but what I suggested is simple and doesn't change pve TR, pve being one reason why pvp balance is so tricky (no pun intended :P ) No stealth on node is extreme but simple. I really think nerfs for pvp reasons, should be node-based so they really only affect domination play.
The whole thing is about removing something that makes pvp less fun. Even when gwf unstoppable was godmode, you could still kite a gwf way off node, simply by trolling the HAMSTER out of the gwf player who would get frustrated that he couldn't kill you despite you bringing his health down to 25% twice in a minute or so. The player would get mad and chase you. Being dazed by an invisible opponent and then killed while you are helpless...nothing that can be done about that. Can only try to be difficult to target by constantly jumping and moving around especially when you hear that "stealth swish" sound effect.
gwf, cw, gf, tr, sw (lower level sw) and hr. I respeced my hr to the "optimal build" but am soo tempted to spec it again back to the hybrid archer/combat build that I actually enjoyed playing.
that mainly the case for 4 class, HR, TR ,CW SW. Among those 4 CW is worst, TR only get 25% damage when deflect, HR can eventualy get self healing and SW have run. I, m pretty sure that even if tomorrow TR don't have stealth they will be still able to play and on the top of that you play HR and TR, look like you only goes on overpowered class exclusivly. (ho mostly forgot, 35 % deflect for a class at 1800 point mainly a big defense event if it not work all the time. 1800 point on CW more or less 12% deflect. And Tr still have dodge.
Raydan i got it that at least with the build you use and most likely against 20k premades you can stand 1 rotation at best. But then, let's see:
- now you have the DPS potential to take down any class fast with high burst
- the chance an enemy can catch you are so slim they are close to 0 taking latency into account
- even if by chance the enemy catches you and you die, you have soulforged. This enchant on many classes usually means you just die later. On a TR it means you can roll away into stealth and pretty much go recover out of healing depression or go back to your almost invulnerable rotation, since a lucky strike will hardly happen twice.
As i said, being virtually squishy but in practice out of range/ sight 99,9% of the time, 100% thanks to latency (aka immortal unless the enemy is lucky or you make a mistake) is way better than being "tanky" (die slowly, and the enemy can deal damage and still kill you, even if slowly).
You might have high dodging abilities but something the enemy can counter if skilled. Right now you have tools over tools piled up in a way that as i said above and others said before me, the only ways to die are:
- group gangbang and even so, TRs can usually kite quite a bit
- your mistake
- lucky hit from the enemy
and that is exactly what you see in the kill/ death ratios in leaderboard. TRs are virtually squishy, in reality the most survivable class of the whole game by far. While being also a strong burst DPS class (again, cause you're supposed to be squishy).
Your survivability also comes at pretty much no risk or low risk (stealth). It's not even like you need to try hard to time your dodges or anything.
In past modules and in particular module 3-4 i stated multiple times how stealth was not an issue cause the damage was a slow DoT and you could counter it with skills and experience. It's not like that anymore cause damage now is high and the unneeded defensive buffs made every counter useless. At least talking from a fighter point of view. On my HR can still land a thorn ward on the node and my DC now can tank with empowered astral shield if i don't get killed in between and manage to dodge the attacks (else would be dead meat fast, at least at my GS).
Agree. Agree.
Absolutely not true. My toons are 19k and 17k and I'm always getting two-shotted by 11k-13k TRs. Can't stun them or disrupt them, and can rarely find them. Half the time, hit for hit they'll crush me.
20k TRs 1 shot me and I never see them coming, so...there's not even a fight.
Hey, hope you're still around: one of the reasons that I love playing my new TR is that she's just so fast! But I'm not that fast. What build are you using? The fastest that I can think of is using the +40% and +15% Passives, along with the +25% default which only gets me to 80% run speed while stealthed (and it doesn't have Tencaious Concealment, so I actually can't use that, but still ^.^). Where are you getting the rest of the run speed? Not trolling, really serious here; gotta go fast!
On topic:
This does sound like an argument against the Sab path, and I'm pretty darn sure that Rayrdan uses Sab. I'm unsure why he's complaining about being squishy, honestly, since Sab is really ridiculous right now, but whatever.
Instead of making TR stealth not work on node (which is an interest idea, but I think that it's overboard and would feel really bad for TRs), what if TRs just appeared for like .25 seconds when they attacked from stealth? That would be a pretty Sab-specific nerf and would solve a lot of the "I'm getting killed by invisible things and my teammates can't help me" thing that I understand feels really bad.
I feel for you. MOD4 and 5 have driven me further and further away. After dallies I press K, stare at the Queue for PVP button, then decide to go rake leaves or wash dishes.
LOL! The same sentiments ("beyond anything else") have been communicated about other classes during other module releases. I remember CWs being discussed as being able to take out entire teams in PvP, also the HR, GWF, and GF. They all had their day.
Again, it is the same story, different class. This has been going on for over a year.
Just learn to adjust - the problem is that it takes time (study) and patience, which many gamers don't seem to have.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Fighting groups I'd try to land Dazing on two or three ppl, find out immediately who was squishier and take them out, dodge, Deft, dodge, Cloud, and on and on. Usually did pretty well. ...of course w/ groups I'd drop from above if I could to keep my Stealth on hand for evasion.
All that to say, I was on the receiving end of heinous trash talk for being OP and having 'pera-stunn' (Dazing Strike - lol). This mostly during MOD3 when I played TR the most. If I still played my TR...OMG--I can't imagine.
at least from the past there was possibility for team to counter. CW beginning V4 was doing high damage but was still weak and was able to be killed in team and also was still weak again control. V3 GWF even as tanky as they were, some other class were able to handle it in team. same for V3-V4 HR. SO from past once you were going on higher lvl, some team still were able to handle the op part. actual TR here on opposite, doesn't involve any thing and even a correct geared TR can make a party team practicaly alone if there is no TR on the opposite side. Honestly the best ratio of kill/ killed before actual TR was on V3 HR (only one player with something like 25-30 kill /1 killed) and rest was at beast 10 for 1. (if i remember correctly i saw something like a neraly 100 for 1 ratio and lot are 20-30 ratio with actual TR )
the stats also involve as far as i remember result in IWD PVP and PVP gauntlym. So even if you goes with teamate, you can't expressly always goes on a side which allow you to never be killed. the point your saying is ok for a good ratio not for this kind of ratio (or you will also find his teammate on same ratio if it was only team involve)
TR now has the tools to survive outside of stealth IMO, which is why I'm playing Scoundrel. I don't even slot SS so I rarely have stealth available as a defence since I burn it for an alpha strike. But this was not the case before and no amount of revisionism will change that.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
If you want a node-based solution something along the lines of giving the node beacon some of the properties of the Lantern artifact might work. An aura that makes stealthed characters easier to detect while they're on the node. That way stealth could still be used for the feats that depend on it but it would be much easier to detect and counter TRs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I'm a 23k gear score PVP build CW with 42k HP, I just been easily kill 3 times (in around 5 to 6 sec) by two 8K stealth TR (in pair) and I couldn’t move (daze) all of the fights.
The fight before, an 8K stealth TR took me 36K before I was finally able to kill him (23K CW nearly survive an 8K Stealth TR hello!!!!). Several 11 to 12k stealth Tr hit me with Dazing Strike follow 4 to 5 second later by Smoke bomb and disappeared for around 5 second and come back with Dazing Strike and Smoke Bomb again and while I was daze all the fight, from the beginning, took all my 42K HP and killed me.
10K to 16K TR are doing around 39K DPS with Lashing Blade (an encounter!!!!!) that DPS has to be nerf 70% down.
Smoke Bomb daze you for 5 second and even if you go out still poisoning you for around 29K HP (an encounter!!!!!) it dazing time should be nerf 50% (Dazing Strike also) on players and DPS buy 60%.
All CW control spells time are much shorter when use on other players so how come TR daze are lasting so loooooooong????
I could continue like that for all the GOD MODE 5 TR received thanks for destroying our game.
20Int, 16Str,21 Dex, 21 Cha
Is it a joke man, I played at least over 500 1x 1 TR encounters since module 5 and the conclusion is that there is absolutly nothing to do againt stelth TR GOD MOD
Dexterity ( same for CWs) and Charisma give Deflection, for a TR.
Wisdom give Recharge Speed and Action Points gain, for a CW.
Different class = different advantage.
There are a lot of unskilled TRs running at the moment just because this is the overpowered flavor of the module class.
However, I have seen good TRs who just killed a GWF and a CW from Chocolate Shoppe 2v1.
You guys still think its fair how a TR just killed one of the best PVP GWF and the best PVP CW 2v1?
Being in CS does not mean you are good. It means that you enjoy FotM builds and have a lot of money/knows how to exploit.
Actually not many at all in these elitist PvP guilds have any skill at all.
*flame shield on*
and even all of that is not enough
you need a bit of push on leaderbord if u know what i mean
For example, if one is not killed by a lashing blade then smoke bomb reduces HP down to half and then they go into stealth. I'm not even talking about high geared TRs either.
When they go out of stealth, it becomes more even, but when they one shot or two shot you then you know something is not quite right.
Whilst I do not advocate taking away their stealth, I really think the damage or the feats need to be looked out because they are OP right now.
Don't say that! Now you hurt their feelings