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Trickster Rogue (PvP)
overdriver13
Member Posts: 1,521 Arc User
Sorry, it just isn't fun playing a game where a class can stunlock you from absolute invisibility and then two shot you while your character is helpless. It is that simple.
The game being domination/node control I really think stealth should not work while a tr is on a node. Let it work everywhere else, and yes TR's should be able to pick you off while your running between nodes, it is "rogue like" to hide and quietly kill the unsuspecting as they travel. But I am not sure how "rogue like" it is to have a magical, absolute, and permanent invisibility while contesting a single point out in the open.
Remove stealth from nodes and TR's keep what makes them special and it affects pve not at all.
TRs are not otherwise OP, or godmode or anything like that. On-node they simply have an extreme advantage that is unequaled by any other class.
The game being domination/node control I really think stealth should not work while a tr is on a node. Let it work everywhere else, and yes TR's should be able to pick you off while your running between nodes, it is "rogue like" to hide and quietly kill the unsuspecting as they travel. But I am not sure how "rogue like" it is to have a magical, absolute, and permanent invisibility while contesting a single point out in the open.
Remove stealth from nodes and TR's keep what makes them special and it affects pve not at all.
TRs are not otherwise OP, or godmode or anything like that. On-node they simply have an extreme advantage that is unequaled by any other class.
Post edited by overdriver13 on
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They just need to find a way to make stealthed targets more vulnerable somehow, whether it is with less movement speed, some kind of light haze around them that allows enemies to see them, but still requires them to get close to attack, making them temporarily visible/targetable to whom they hit from stealth, ect.
Disabling stealth while on a node though? Foolish.
And rogues are visible within a certain range. It's short mind you (about 1 or 2 in game meters), but it's there. Really your issue sounds like it has more to do with the scoundrel tree than stealth on nodes, as regular rogues have to sacrifice their harder hitting encounters to have as much stun as you describe.
And I don't agree with losing stealth on nodes. Now, if this was a capture the flag format, I think the flag bearer losing their tab ability would sound quite challenging (although mounts would probably need to be forbidden).
Nah he is talking about them dropping smoke bomb or w/e from stealth and then DF for all your health while you cant move.
It is instant death and is the cheesiest thing i've ever seen.
Even if you see em you can't move or dodge after you get stunned so you are a sitting duck.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
If these two powers weren't giving you trouble before then they shouldn't be now, so the issue has to be elsewhere.
Or people are just complaining because TRs can actually do some damage now.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Before module 5 you could pressure a TR. You could follow him when he would roll away from ITC into stealth, and if you got experience and skill, you could catch him usually. Even so, BiS TRs could pretty much tank a rotation and disappear again even when in trouble
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sLcbLeVGYI
it was already easy to combine ITC, dodge rolls and movement speed to almost never die, but it was possible to face TRs cause the damage was very slow over time and you could pressure.
Now, TRs got:
- even easier stealth with right build, so they still are invisible most of the time.
- more damage
- longer rolls and 1 more roll with right build
Point 2 and 3 are what shifted the class from being a powerful node-holder into being an unkillable killing machine. TR can still stay in stealth as much as before, but this powerful tool now has also added DPS so the enemy has very little time to look for the stealthed TR. Finally, the longer rolls and increased rolls make it impossible to pressure the TR cause even with all boons and stuff for sprint, and 1k movement stat, it's still not enough to keep up with a TR basically rolling for crazy distances every 3 seconds and moving faster than any other class (base movement speed) the rest of the time.
TRs must stay in stealth, attack from stealth with their new buffed burst DPS, and then be vulnerable like any other class to a comeback. Which means, for example, not being able to return in stealth right away or chain immunities, dazes and stealth erasing any window of opportunity for the enemy to attack. Which is what happens now.
After his burst, the TR must rely on skills and dodges but being visible, not going back to stealth right away while spamming insanely long rolls and then bunnyhop at 2x your basic movement speed, mixing rolls here and there whenever someone get close to him.
If stealth has to stay as it is now, then go back to 3 short rolls and slower movement speed during stealth (faster movement is stealth is nonsense).
If stealth goes and the TR is visible for a while after he attacks, then dodge rolls and movement speed can stay the same.
But you can't have both or you get unkillable, and in fact TRs right now have absurd kill/ death ratios in leaderboard (like 1000 kills/ 30 deaths and so on) and in domination games (now you often see 20-0/ 20-1/ 15-0 scores from TRs. Even if they are undergeared and weak but know how to play the right build, they never die).
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You know what is the problem? people like you blaming the class instead of gear score most of the elite TR now has 22k to 25k gs and they are not many but they do have 10k to 12k power and those elite TR you will never win if you have low gear score same goes to all class with above 20k gs the only difference now is TR can fight back although we still cant win 1v1 with an HR most of the time. Before a 20k TR can easily be killed by a 12k HR, CW, GF, and GWF but let us not forget the majority of the TR is between 12k to 17k I for my self has 17k GS but my damage to gwf, GF, and HR is just 100 to 300 damage (atwill) and (encounter 2k to 4k damage how you gonna kill an HR with high regen and a GWF and GF who has 60k HP with regen as well. Just think when a TR hit you above 19k damage that means that TR has a high gear score or you have low gear score simple as that.
Stealth rules all of those other powers. Takes zero skill to get behind someone while totally invisible, and stun/kill them in one encounter rotation. No other power of any other class comes even close to that. If zero on-node stealth is unfair, maybe make it so TR's cannot attack from stealth.
What I have seen from the better PvPers here is that there are ways to beat dominant classes. You just have to study/learn.
What should NOT happen is more overall nerfing! If anything is nerfed, it should apply ONLY to PvP setting!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Well even a few seconds of stealth on a node is wayyy too much when you can be stunned/killed in one rotation.
Stun and kill from invisibility in one rotation, on node, is the issue. My idea would balance things out a lot more, keep TRs what they currently are, and actually force ranged classes to play on node, which they should be doing generally anyways.
I just stopped playing my HR and the game period, and came back to see if there was more parity between the classes. That HR was my pride and joy up to that point. The game play and challenge of the class was gone and so was I.
Dragon will get there. More so than gwf sents in their day or hr's in theirs. There is not and has never been in this game anything like killing in a single rotation from complete and utter invisibility with no chance of counter attack.
Ya it is my fault that in a game of node domination one class alone can stun/kill another class of equal gs from complete and absolute invisibility.
I disagree...the situation with TR is beyond anything else. What I am asking for is not a class to be nerfed but rather the domination game to be very slightly altered to not allow for sch an extreme advantage by a single class.
I am a 22k gs full pvp specced player, I have seen dozens of others with BiS gear and highly expirienced in pvp: there is NO CHANCE to beat a correctly build and skilled TR these days.
Guys, get real... and if u now say "l2p", no problem, lets met ingame facing such a BiS TR, u roll whatever class u want except TR and DC, and lets see how it plays out... oh wait... I am sure this wont happen...
Zero on-node stealth basically stops any TR from ever contesting a node. It disables the vast majority of their feats. If you'd every played a TR you'd realise what a ridiculous suggestion this is.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
May be that's why in leaderboard Top TRs like sicarius who usually play premade only or mostly premade, have absurd Kill/Death ratios of 100/1 or so.
Cause top players figured out a way to counter them.
If you guys think TR is fine and balanced in its current "BiS" build, you're fooling yourselves or you can't play your class at its full potential. TRs have the lowest deaths in the whole leaderboard, if you think that's fine then you need a reality check.
I face in PvP 18-20k players with legendaries often. No build comes close to a BiS TR. Fought 23k GWF from page 2 of leaderboard with my 16k Instigator and could still bring him down to half health or so, and he was a "BiS" intimidation sentinel. Can fight and kill CWs, depends how good i am at sprinting through their CC and glyphs and then catching them. Still, can fight back. Same with warlocks. Same with GFs. Can fight back to some degree with Red Glyphed HRs and DPS DCs even though they are monsters (red glyphed combat HR takes you down quite fast). And i fought permas and semi-perma TRs for over 1 year in PvP and always found my way to face them through skill and predicting their movements.
Current BiS TR have strong DPS (not the best but still strong) but more of all the devs buffed defensive abilities and that was totally un-needed and overpowered their survivability to a level no other class ever reached.
Semi-permanent stealth is stronger than ever and the longer rolls+ additional roll+ dazes+ movement speed allows the TR to create rotations that leave no room for counterattack.
And again, the proof is there on the leaderboard numbers: 100/1 kill/death ratio is INSANE.
If you say it's "doable", then as someone said, please let us witness how you take a GWF or GF or other classes and face a TR who actually knows how to use his class. At any GS level.
I am quite sure 99% of the TRs claiming their class is fine, playing another class would not even land a scratch on a good TR in PvP.
My suggestions are the same: TRs must either learn to survive out of stealth through dodges, tankier build and dazes after the initial attack, or keep their semi-perma stealth but with a huge tone down of dodge rolls and mobility during stealth.
Too easy to play invisible 99% of the time, with enough dodges and mobility to evade any class forever, plus immunities, plus dazes, and then say to players to "learn how to fight you".
Why don't you learn how to play "normally" like any other class and actually survive through timed dodges and timed dazes and good build.
BTW, if you can also post a video of a BiS *any class* facing a current BiS TR and winning, please do. Expecially GWF and GF facing a module 5 TR and winning.
I'm also totally in for keeping TR as it is and buffing the other classes. For example 12 seconds cooldown on frontline, old determination gain, 200% stamina and faster base movement speed for Instigator GWF. That would bring the path close to current TR and make it able to hunt TRs down more effectively (and would still require skills to track the TR during stealth).
Not all TRs are perma or anywhere near it and the extra defensive features were intended to help them. My Scoundrel, for instance, relies entirely on dodges, deflect, and dazes. Unfortunately the devs dropped the ball on easy permastealth. That's pretty much all that needs fixing - well, and a tweak to DHS.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Like I said, I stopped playing HR and never came back despite countless hours and a decent chunk of change spent on the class.
Zero on node stealth might sound ridiculous but it is no more ridiculous than what we have now. By definition, it is a broken class.
trickster damage or CC is not really out of control, what people will always complain about is stealth (perma , semi-perma or just 2 seconds does not matter, people complain and always will ).
One thing is sure: people saying "you need to learn to survive out of stealth" dont have played TR a single day.
It's impossible, once out of stealth you are dead.
Stealth is wrongly implemented in the game? No-stealth gameplay is implemented even worse.
TR would needed a way greater rework, something we asked to but didnt received.
What i would really like is a more stealthy combat ranger with cc and gap closer and relatively low cooldows; an enhanced and maybe more strong combat HR without procs which lead to unfair healing capabilities.
too late
it's not like some tunes cannot solve the 2-3 cheese in the actual TR builds but it would not matter
PEOPLE COMPLAIN
Because if cc and dmg of TRs is fine right now, and stealth is it also, yeah… maybe other classes have just learn to play, right?
Why are you fooling yourself?
And to the people saying that it is just the "current" OP build, get real. Ofc players will spec to the full potential of their class. At this very peak of class potential the balance must happen. I have never seen wk TRs, instigator gwfs, archer HRs etc. in serious premades before mod5.
Just because some feat trees arent used and some specific is uber OP means that the class is balanced.
I dont care for the "self nerfing player" who just pick a sub optimal spec. The current top op build has to be considered the place where balance has to happen.
I used to tell people how HAMSTER it was to play a tr before because your only option was stealth. But the tr is OP, since Mod 5, 1 v 1 against any other class I will win, except for the immortal DC's, which I just ignore these day's. My gs is 17k and I wear profound armor, dread legion weapon set and p. lighting. Shadow Strike, ITC and Dazing strike leaves all other classes pretty much useless. If you learn to use the feat that dazes people when you when you attack from behind or crit, then extend it using at wills, followed by dazing strike, they out of comission for around 8 seconds, more then enough time to land 2 DF's, if they are not dead, hit with shadow strike, go stealth, hit itc, let them attack, DF until Crits and dazes then repeat.
Although I would say Scoundrel takes the most skill, the dazing is ridiculous, the cooldown should be more then 5 seconds. You can essentially perma daze other players, with the extra run speed, there is not chance for escape, stealthed I can run faster then a plus 3 mount.
The Sab tr is kinda ridiculous, I mentioned my defenses but at the moment I only have 26k HP, a sab tr can take half of that with glooming cut while maintaining stealth forever. Why you would pick a tree that essentially turns you into mobile scissor I don't know. Thats all I hear when sab tr's around, the sound of glooming cut over and over and over. Obviously the Devs picked this to be the I can't play tree. Obviously the devs did not think this through, I'm sure there thoughts were that the increases stealth you get from glooming cut would not be used as it is now, they probably "Well, no one will just sit around spamming one at will for eternity", which is why I would never spec sab.
The magical stealth TR is an abomination of D&D and all games really. There has never been a class in any game that can attack from stealth and remain hidden. In the D&D world TR's are not magical, you can't even go stealth if someone has direct line of sight and you need some kinda of concealment even if you took the feat Hide in Plain Sight.
TR's are definitely OP if you know how to play them. A skilled tr in pretty much any tree will destroy other classes except for DC's. As a TR, the perma stealth is definitely the most skilless build, having to have played that way for almost 2 years, it's amazing people even spec to that tree. You gain no skill playing perma, there is no need to dodge, maneuver, outwit your opponent, before this is was bait and switch and shadows strike and itc, now it's even less, all you need is a at will and your OP, no skill required: Hit tab, then spam glooming cut, that's sab.
And to the developers, can you please mute the glooming cut sound effect, sometimes that's all you hear a pvp match, as another TR the sabs don't bother me, but that sounds, it's all I hear these days.
i say it has cheese. d. strike is cheese, gloaming cut refilling stealth is cheese, 3 seconds daze every 5 sec is cheese, bloodbath multiproccing shadowy opportunity is cheese.
stop
let all at will reduce stealth, halves the ticks of d.strike, increase the cooldown to proc daze with crits to 8 seconds, remove the interaction of bloodbath with shadowy opportunity and fix shadow of demise to proc only with encounters and every 15 seconds.
and people would still complain tho
Rayrdan has some good suggestions. Changing Gloaming Cut to deplete stealth or as least not refill it would go a long way to fixing permastealth; a longer CD on either Concussive Strikes or Dazing Strike would address perma-daze (or even reduced daze duration in PvP only); Bloodbath needs to stop multi-proccing Shadowy Opportunity. As OP as TR seems it should be relatively easy to fix without wholesale nerfs.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder