The cap doesn't bother me so much. The amount we can earn due to loot being more and more predominately bop does. Hence why I've had to resort to an extreme way to earn just so I don't fall behind.
You may have already read this but statements like this really appear to paint you in a super-elitist category. You're claiming you've "had to resort to an extreme way to earn" just so you don't fall behind. Fall behind who? The people who spend money? The other extreme players with 28 leadership characters? Please do not take this personally, but I suspect most players are going to have a hard time understanding how someone who apparently regularly makes 25 million AD "investments" and has a 28-man army of leadership farmers could ever fall behind on anything. I totally get the argument that you can't make the same amount via loot drops, I do not suggest at all that this practice be curbed by any changes to the game itself but it's a matter of perspective. What exactly are you competing for? With that much AD, it's beyond question that you can buy just about anything you could ever want in this game. I'm just curious what you're trying to accomplish with your massive AD farm that would even compare to the goals of any normal player and how that should affect any discussion about what should be done with the refining cap or the AD economy.
You may have already read this but statements like this really appear to paint you in a super-elitist category. You're claiming you've "had to resort to an extreme way to earn" just so you don't fall behind. Fall behind who? The people who spend money?
Pretty much that set of people. Also I didn't regularly make 25m investments, it was the one time where I could quickly and easily make double of what I held. 20m made 25m or something like that. All of that is locked up and unusable atm though since I wanted to reinvest it. I lucked out making that much because the exchange was wrongfully backlogged, so if cryptic ran the game better, I wouldn't have been able to make that much if anything. Honestly, It's taken me over a year and a double rp weekend to get a set of rank 9s, legendary artifacts and next weekend legendary artifact gear. It won't be enough to max out all of my characters though. Without those toons, I just wouldn't be making much progress at all. Though I have stunted progress from slowly building the army up and invest in expensive tools.
I'm not elitist, I used to be cheap and do CN in rank 4s for a while. Though it was easier and a little less gear dependant. All I want is a way to keep earning and leadership was the only way since the CN farming days too satisfy that earning, but it doesn't help to satisfy that the game itself before this module at least (don't want to judge this so early on) feels unrewarding. I am approaching the point where AD will be practically no concern. I did have to buy a wisdom belt last module due to int belts being too much though.
Anyway the point was the game was more enjoyable when there was content that could wipe teams and rewards you could sell at an unlimited rate. You don't need to stop just because you reached your refining limit and you could make a whole lot more than the measly rAD. You could constantly make meaningful progress as long as you worked for it. Content from mod 1-4 meant that the only progress you made was in the form of boons. You could optionally earn gear from those dungeons, but it wasn't a necessity, a lot of it was inferior and once you got it, there's no really reason to rerun it. That is the biggest issue I have and it changed something that felt fun into something that felt like doing almost unpaid work.
If it wasn't for leadership, I probably would of had to give up at mod 2 at the latest. Though I should've probably focused on other things anyway. To keep me interesting, I need to make progress. Increase the cap, keep the cap, it doesn't matter to me. The content needs to be rewarding like it once was.
Thanks for the explanation, frishter. I don't want to give the impression that top-end players shouldn't have a positive experience. I don't know how hard it is to design a good dungeon with compelling challenging content but gear progression seems to simply be a part of the game. Once you've outgeared a dungeon, I wouldn't expect there would be a reason to go back, especially as other players catch up and outgear the dungeon as well. The prices will naturally fall as there will be less demand when better gear is obtainable. That's normal. I agree the content needs to be more than dailies, rinse, repeat. The belts seem to be holding up well in price though, as it appears they are difficult to get. It would be nice if there were rewards that depended on something other than low drop rates, but I figure there will always be top-end players who can conquer that content pretty easily and they will take their reward, then continue running that content so they can sell those items and the prices will fall. It must be hard to design content that provides a rewarding experience and preserves the economy through proper design, which may be why the development team resorts to dailies to hold people back artificially. I guess...
Thanks for the explanation, frishter. I don't want to give the impression that top-end players shouldn't have a positive experience. I don't know how hard it is to design a good dungeon with compelling challenging content but gear progression seems to simply be a part of the game. Once you've outgeared a dungeon, I wouldn't expect there would be a reason to go back, especially as other players catch up and outgear the dungeon as well. The prices will naturally fall as there will be less demand when better gear is obtainable. That's normal. I agree the content needs to be more than dailies, rinse, repeat. The belts seem to be holding up well in price though, as it appears they are difficult to get. It would be nice if there were rewards that depended on something other than low drop rates, but I figure there will always be top-end players who can conquer that content pretty easily and they will take their reward, then continue running that content so they can sell those items and the prices will fall. It must be hard to design content that provides a rewarding experience and preserves the economy through proper design, which may be why the development team resorts to dailies to hold people back artificially. I guess...
No problem. I get that things get devalued, but in the CN farming days (which is how I managed to fuel myself to grow) I did hundreds of runs because it was always worth doing. However now it's old and we've outgeared it. since mod 1, I've not really wanted to do the new dungeons more than a handful of times and that's disappointing to me. I am looking forward to tiamat though, providing they fix the lag issues. It took a long time for CN prices to be less worth it, so as long as the content is well designed, they've already shown that you can make repeatable content you actually want to do *cough* not dailies.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
OK guys... lots of good arguments here:
Leadership is been there and has been there. People have been leadership/atl farming since BETA. I have a few leadership alts, which i do once a day, because i like playing the game (some days twice).
We USED to be able to make a lot of income in game, we can't do this anymore. I think this is about a) financial pressure; b) reducing income inequality c) making you "earn" your gear (by doing dailies). A lot of us miss this a lot - I sure do! But you can understand why they did it. At least I think mod 5 is fun.
We actually want DEFLATION so people can gear up easier, but there are people who are sitting on many millions of AD. They do the AH flipping and profit, so the AD is more and more concentrated near the top. I think all the artifact gear is so that those players have something to burn their AD on. If there are no more bots, maybe very rich players will have to buy blood rubies? who knows.
Anyway, I have been over the RAD cap well over a year, i wish it was higher, but i understand the arguments not to.
My favorite idea is small AD sinks that are useful and reasonably priced, especially for newer players. These high cost AD sinks run the risk of being so daunting new players give up and we lose too many people to make the game viable.
Now because this thread is a little too serious, everyone please read the following:
We USED to be able to make a lot of income in game, we can't do this anymore. I think this is about a) financial pressure; b) reducing income inequality c) making you "earn" your gear (by doing dailies). A lot of us miss this a lot - I sure do! But you can understand why they did it. At least I think mod 5 is fun.
It's like Blizzard and Diablo 3 gold and RL money AH. Since Blizzard got a cut from the RL money AH they slowly nerfed every single gold making activity to stop players from using the gold AH. It worked. After a while only the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items showed up for small upgrades requiring luck and grind to have the gold to purchase them.
The only real difference is that Diablo 3, at that time, had a wall which was Hell difficulty. Even white mobs would one shot players. Bad design (mini bosses who left lava trails and ran away from players forcing them to walk over the lava/mini bosses who created walls which could not be crossed or destroyed + laser beams) would annihilate only the best geared, so people who wanted to progress had to farm the lower levels and hope for better drops (even if the better drops lay in the land of one-shots).
Neverwinter? Not so much. Other than PvP who needs legendary gear? Is there *anything* in this game that can't be done at the minimum recommended GS? Is there *anything* that even offers a modicum of challenge?
Of course that this matches the rewards. If there is no hellacious CN (as I read from the forums posts, I'm just a two month or so baby) of course there are no big rewards either. This, at least, is better than Wildstar who offer the hellacious content and then throws some subpar RNG drenched loot at the players.
PvP is another beast altogether. After GW2 I just giggle at games from WoW to Wildstar to NW who expect players to go in and get crushed to paste for a couple of weeks (if not a month) in order to collect gear and start surviving a bit better, but always knowing they will never catch up to the older players.
Someone new to PvP should lose against someone experienced in PvP. The experienced player has all the timings, the game quirks, the knowledge of when to duck. Most often they have heir own tailored build to their own needs instead of a cookie cutter build the new player picked up from a forum.
This should be the edge of an older player versus a new one. Like GW2 did. And a new player would need to get better and progress (with an elo system and not NW's giggleworthy way of pitting 12k GS VS 18-20k GS) as they understand the game. Not simply know they are always going to be useless against the older players with the gear they are months from obtaining, if they even feel like playing for that long because being crushed during all that does not smell like fun.
Problem is, you're mixing up games with different business models. Which is not good. NW is a F2P game, eg. you download the game for free and play. And you start really low. It's an absolutely very humble beginning. Harshly humiliating poorly. The difference between an old player and a new free player is stellar. They are basically not playing the same game, it's that kind of a big difference.
OTOH a game where you need to buy a box or god forbid pay a sub too, you just need to stand there and the loot showers on you. (I have seen this.)
Same with PVP, in NW you need to start with PVE. Get a few boons, a little gear from here and there (campaigns and dungeons) so old players won't kill you in 1-shot. Yes they will literally 1-shot you if you go in with quest green gear, you won't be even a bleep on their radar.
Also if you're just starting NW you'd better be buying Dragonborn pack, it boosts you tremendously, the gameplay experience is totally different. Also if you buy an epic mount at lvl20, the leveling experience will be close to a box/sub game.
I was not railing against NW's PvE. In fact I pretty much said the game does not require legendaries because it is so easy that all dungeons at their recommended GS are easily doable. I mentioned PvP glancingly because it is the one place where legendaries are a must thanks to how the game is put together.
Gear more important than 'skill' is not PvP.
Of course that I am preaching to the wrong crowd. People who PvP in NW/WoW/WS/etc *are* those who enjoy the design of gear being more important than 'skill'.
Comments
24k is plenty enough for me.
You may have already read this but statements like this really appear to paint you in a super-elitist category. You're claiming you've "had to resort to an extreme way to earn" just so you don't fall behind. Fall behind who? The people who spend money? The other extreme players with 28 leadership characters? Please do not take this personally, but I suspect most players are going to have a hard time understanding how someone who apparently regularly makes 25 million AD "investments" and has a 28-man army of leadership farmers could ever fall behind on anything. I totally get the argument that you can't make the same amount via loot drops, I do not suggest at all that this practice be curbed by any changes to the game itself but it's a matter of perspective. What exactly are you competing for? With that much AD, it's beyond question that you can buy just about anything you could ever want in this game. I'm just curious what you're trying to accomplish with your massive AD farm that would even compare to the goals of any normal player and how that should affect any discussion about what should be done with the refining cap or the AD economy.
Pretty much that set of people. Also I didn't regularly make 25m investments, it was the one time where I could quickly and easily make double of what I held. 20m made 25m or something like that. All of that is locked up and unusable atm though since I wanted to reinvest it. I lucked out making that much because the exchange was wrongfully backlogged, so if cryptic ran the game better, I wouldn't have been able to make that much if anything. Honestly, It's taken me over a year and a double rp weekend to get a set of rank 9s, legendary artifacts and next weekend legendary artifact gear. It won't be enough to max out all of my characters though. Without those toons, I just wouldn't be making much progress at all. Though I have stunted progress from slowly building the army up and invest in expensive tools.
I'm not elitist, I used to be cheap and do CN in rank 4s for a while. Though it was easier and a little less gear dependant. All I want is a way to keep earning and leadership was the only way since the CN farming days too satisfy that earning, but it doesn't help to satisfy that the game itself before this module at least (don't want to judge this so early on) feels unrewarding. I am approaching the point where AD will be practically no concern. I did have to buy a wisdom belt last module due to int belts being too much though.
Anyway the point was the game was more enjoyable when there was content that could wipe teams and rewards you could sell at an unlimited rate. You don't need to stop just because you reached your refining limit and you could make a whole lot more than the measly rAD. You could constantly make meaningful progress as long as you worked for it. Content from mod 1-4 meant that the only progress you made was in the form of boons. You could optionally earn gear from those dungeons, but it wasn't a necessity, a lot of it was inferior and once you got it, there's no really reason to rerun it. That is the biggest issue I have and it changed something that felt fun into something that felt like doing almost unpaid work.
If it wasn't for leadership, I probably would of had to give up at mod 2 at the latest. Though I should've probably focused on other things anyway. To keep me interesting, I need to make progress. Increase the cap, keep the cap, it doesn't matter to me. The content needs to be rewarding like it once was.
No problem. I get that things get devalued, but in the CN farming days (which is how I managed to fuel myself to grow) I did hundreds of runs because it was always worth doing. However now it's old and we've outgeared it. since mod 1, I've not really wanted to do the new dungeons more than a handful of times and that's disappointing to me. I am looking forward to tiamat though, providing they fix the lag issues. It took a long time for CN prices to be less worth it, so as long as the content is well designed, they've already shown that you can make repeatable content you actually want to do *cough* not dailies.
Leadership is been there and has been there. People have been leadership/atl farming since BETA. I have a few leadership alts, which i do once a day, because i like playing the game (some days twice).
We USED to be able to make a lot of income in game, we can't do this anymore. I think this is about a) financial pressure; b) reducing income inequality c) making you "earn" your gear (by doing dailies). A lot of us miss this a lot - I sure do! But you can understand why they did it. At least I think mod 5 is fun.
We actually want DEFLATION so people can gear up easier, but there are people who are sitting on many millions of AD. They do the AH flipping and profit, so the AD is more and more concentrated near the top. I think all the artifact gear is so that those players have something to burn their AD on. If there are no more bots, maybe very rich players will have to buy blood rubies? who knows.
Anyway, I have been over the RAD cap well over a year, i wish it was higher, but i understand the arguments not to.
My favorite idea is small AD sinks that are useful and reasonably priced, especially for newer players. These high cost AD sinks run the risk of being so daunting new players give up and we lose too many people to make the game viable.
Now because this thread is a little too serious, everyone please read the following:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?791401-Chem-how-did-you-get-so-much-RAD
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
It's like Blizzard and Diablo 3 gold and RL money AH. Since Blizzard got a cut from the RL money AH they slowly nerfed every single gold making activity to stop players from using the gold AH. It worked. After a while only the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> items showed up for small upgrades requiring luck and grind to have the gold to purchase them.
The only real difference is that Diablo 3, at that time, had a wall which was Hell difficulty. Even white mobs would one shot players. Bad design (mini bosses who left lava trails and ran away from players forcing them to walk over the lava/mini bosses who created walls which could not be crossed or destroyed + laser beams) would annihilate only the best geared, so people who wanted to progress had to farm the lower levels and hope for better drops (even if the better drops lay in the land of one-shots).
Neverwinter? Not so much. Other than PvP who needs legendary gear? Is there *anything* in this game that can't be done at the minimum recommended GS? Is there *anything* that even offers a modicum of challenge?
Of course that this matches the rewards. If there is no hellacious CN (as I read from the forums posts, I'm just a two month or so baby) of course there are no big rewards either. This, at least, is better than Wildstar who offer the hellacious content and then throws some subpar RNG drenched loot at the players.
PvP is another beast altogether. After GW2 I just giggle at games from WoW to Wildstar to NW who expect players to go in and get crushed to paste for a couple of weeks (if not a month) in order to collect gear and start surviving a bit better, but always knowing they will never catch up to the older players.
Someone new to PvP should lose against someone experienced in PvP. The experienced player has all the timings, the game quirks, the knowledge of when to duck. Most often they have heir own tailored build to their own needs instead of a cookie cutter build the new player picked up from a forum.
This should be the edge of an older player versus a new one. Like GW2 did. And a new player would need to get better and progress (with an elo system and not NW's giggleworthy way of pitting 12k GS VS 18-20k GS) as they understand the game. Not simply know they are always going to be useless against the older players with the gear they are months from obtaining, if they even feel like playing for that long because being crushed during all that does not smell like fun.
OTOH a game where you need to buy a box or god forbid pay a sub too, you just need to stand there and the loot showers on you. (I have seen this.)
Same with PVP, in NW you need to start with PVE. Get a few boons, a little gear from here and there (campaigns and dungeons) so old players won't kill you in 1-shot. Yes they will literally 1-shot you if you go in with quest green gear, you won't be even a bleep on their radar.
Also if you're just starting NW you'd better be buying Dragonborn pack, it boosts you tremendously, the gameplay experience is totally different. Also if you buy an epic mount at lvl20, the leveling experience will be close to a box/sub game.
Gear more important than 'skill' is not PvP.
Of course that I am preaching to the wrong crowd. People who PvP in NW/WoW/WS/etc *are* those who enjoy the design of gear being more important than 'skill'.