You want to give Legendary items a meaning? You want for them to represent something?
FINE.
Put them as rare drops on a raid that 1% of the people in the game can complete.
Reward SKILL and DEDICATION alone, not wallet size.
As long as legendaries will be obtained in green state and need RP that every other average joe can farm in a foundry with 0 challenge, they should remain cheap, as they represent NOTHING.
Nothing at all.
I wouldn't have said it with such strong words, but I agree with you in principal. I think the best items should no come through money, AD, campaign, dailies, etc... They should come from doing difficult things and being sucessful. If there is stuff BoE, then those people who can farm should make ad. I would fully support such content.
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Hey, I really appreciate people voting and posting.
This distribution is pretty reasonable, for the most part.
I would like to hear someone who voted for the most expensive option to make some sort of reasonable argument for it. I personally don't understand, but maybe i would with an explanation.
I wouldn't have said it with such strong words, but I agree with you in principal. I think the best items should no come through money, AD, campaign, dailies, etc... They should come from doing difficult things and being sucessful. If there is stuff BoE, then those people who can farm should make ad. I would fully support such content.
If you are a new player that didn't farm CN when this game launched, how many years would it take for you to get BIS items in module 5 before module 6 is introduces even more powercreep?
That question alone emphasizes player's disappointment in the balance between rewarding skilled gameplay and rewarding extra curricular activities.
It would be helpful to keep poll choices objective and free of bias, in a negative OR positive direction. Putting in phrases like "botter prices" has negative connotations and can bias the results of your poll.
Also, keep your feedback constructive. Let's suggest ways of improvement instead of constantly ranting and complaining. Also, let's not make derisive or insulting commentary towards other posters or their opinions.
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Hey, I really appreciate people voting and posting.
This distribution is pretty reasonable, for the most part.
I would like to hear someone who voted for the most expensive option to make some sort of reasonable argument for it. I personally don't understand, but maybe i would with an explanation.
Which part of the word "Legendary" is so hard to understand? It should take months to get something legendary, not minutes.
Which part of the word "Legendary" is so hard to understand? It should take months to get something legendary, not minutes.
What about years? Should it take years to get an item to legendary? Because with the suggested changes it might take some people over a year to get one to legendary.
I sympathize with your desire to keep "Legendary" items actually "Legendary", but to do so now would only punish the players that do not currently have them and inadvertently reward the players which took advantage of the previously lower prices. i do not think that is entirely fair.
That is why I support a reduction in the cost/RP required to get an item to Legendary, not to make them "Low hanging fruit" but to allow the acquisition of a Legendary item to be an achievable goal for the majority of players in a reasonable time span. Call it 1 month of play averaging 20 hours per week, or 80 hours of lvl 60 play time which could be shortened by the expenditure of real funds. (I would also like to see a cap to the RP that could be bought with real money, but I can not figure out a way to implement that)
Meh, people can just farm enchantments in foundries. The majority of people wants everyting served immediatly on a silver plate. On 2x enchantment events a good 15 minute grind foundry can get you 50+++ rank 4's, feyblessing not even counted in. People are just lazy, in my opinion. Add the dh drops and you can get massive amounts of rp, if you're willing to dedicate some time.
Meh, people can just farm enchantments in foundries. The majority of people wants everyting served immediatly on a silver plate. On 2x enchantment events a good 15 minute grind foundry can get you 50+++ rank 4's, feyblessing not even counted in. People are just lazy, in my opinion. Add the dh drops and you can get massive amounts of rp, if you're willing to dedicate some time.
We don't want to farm like robots the lamest repetitive content for "legendary" items.
We want to run HARD content such as RAIDS to get them, that only skilled players are able to complete.
Actually I want it as hard as it can be, so the rewards will match the difficulty.
Meh, people can just farm enchantments in foundries. The majority of people wants everyting served immediatly on a silver plate. On 2x enchantment events a good 15 minute grind foundry can get you 50+++ rank 4's, feyblessing not even counted in. People are just lazy, in my opinion. Add the dh drops and you can get massive amounts of rp, if you're willing to dedicate some time.
People want something to work for. Getting enough rp is no achievement and if you farm your artifact legit to legendary, you've just wasted your resources on something that will likely be outclassed by the time you actually get it to that rank. It still takes a lot of work to earn the rp for legendaries if it cost 2.5-5m per artifact. If we are to take months or years to get them to legendary (the game won't last years if it does last months) then using a tonne of rp is not the way to do it and you have no decent goals left to head towards. You complete the campaign doing boring dailies, complete the dungeon/raid or whatever then you've done everything apart from that very long term goal. It's so far out of reach that there's nothing to entice us to continue playing apart from current investments.
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2014
I voted for #1 but honestly, in my opinion all artifacts in game should drop from respective loot tables and not be monetized by the company. Then let them be sold (ones that haven't been bound to a character of course) on the AH so that their worth can be dictated by the player-base. Regardless, the most I'd pay for an artifact is 1 mil worth of AD. Anything more, to me in an MMO, feels like a rip-off. I loathe "big money" cash cow items in MMOs - which defeats the meaning of micro transactions.
Try first person shooters, then. One can get the best weapons by simply stepping onto them. Mmorpgs take time.
The question is how much time is reasonable. I am NOT in favor of making the "grind" too short. Nor am I looking to prolong the grind unnecessarily. I figure 1 month at 20 hours per week(80 hours play time) would be a reasonable benchmark of time to get 1 item to Legendary.
I remember playing DDO and working on getting the Epic Sword of Shadows. Took me almost 9 months of constant play to get that item. Some people got lucky and made it in a shorter amount of time, others took longer. I NEVER want to work that long for 1 item ever again.
To make an Item epic in that game you had to have the non-epic version, the seal of the item, the shard of the item and the scroll of the item. In the case of the Sword of Shadows you had to get the seal from an epic mission that you could only run once a day and it had a low chance of appearing in the chest. Which was then rolled on by multiple people in the group. i saw it drop a handful of times but never won the roll. The scroll could drop from any mob in the epic content tied to the module that the sword came from and the Shard came from the Dragon Raid on epic difficulty. I had no real issue with the mechanics of getting that item, but the length of time required was simply horrible.
The question is how much time is reasonable. I am NOT in favor of making the "grind" too short. Nor am I looking to prolong the grind unnecessarily. I figure 1 month at 20 hours per week(80 hours play time) would be a reasonable benchmark of time to get 1 item to Legendary.
Agree. The question is not how much it costs, but how long it takes. In Neverwinter's model about 3 months (at 20 hours per week) to fully gear a character in BiS items sounds reasonable. But that time should be spend playing the game. So running dungeons, skirmishes, PvP and a reasonable amount of dailies (1 hr/day max). But not grinding specially designed foundries, not playing the AH, not having an army of leadership alts.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
I voted for #1 but honestly, in my opinion all artifacts in game should drop from respective loot tables and not be monetized by the company. Then let them be sold (ones that haven't been bound to a character of course) on the AH so that their worth can be dictated by the player-base. Regardless, the most I'd pay for an artifact is 1 mil worth of AD. Anything more, to me in an MMO, feels like a rip-off. I loathe "big money" cash cow items in MMOs - which defeats the meaning of micro transactions.
From zebular nonetheless. Good point, thanks for reading and posting.
Try first person shooters, then. One can get the best weapons by simply stepping onto them. Mmorpgs take time.
I said RAIDING. As in uberhard content that you wipe 1 month trying to clear with 10-25 people in BiS gear and requires everyone on voicechat performing an elaborate choreography.
Then when the boss dies, it drops the sweet gear.
Give me HARD&REWARDING content, instead of derpAFKing in foundries.
PS: I dislike shooters.
PPS: MMOs also make gear periodically obsolete by introducing new one. If you spend all time farming foundry, where do you enjoy the game lol.
Farming and enjoyment should go hand in hand.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Other than the massive lag encountered with HEs, i think that makes sense. Give us content where teams of people, who are skilled and geared, actually struggle. Then the drop should be awesome and sellable. Agreed agreed agreed.
Other than the massive lag encountered with HEs, i think that makes sense. Give us content where teams of people, who are skilled and geared, actually struggle. Then the drop should be awesome and sellable. Agreed agreed agreed.
Yup. Provides variety in the game. Provides a carrot on the stick to entice players to invest in this game (time, skill, effort, money).
If the only way to get legendary was the long arduous skill-less RNG-full heroic encounters (Tiamat), that would not sit well with a lot of people.
Let players progress through normal gameplay such as hard dungeons and raiding. Players getting better loot from harder dungeons and being able to use their shiny new gear to go after even more difficult dungeons with better rewards. Welcome to MMO 101. This is what makes gear progression in MMOs addicting. This is one of the big reasons why MMORPGs are popular (aside from the big social aspect).
Agree. The question is not how much it costs, but how long it takes. In Neverwinter's model about 3 months (at 20 hours per week) to fully gear a character in BiS items sounds reasonable. But that time should be spend playing the game. So running dungeons, skirmishes, PvP and a reasonable amount of dailies (1 hr/day max). But not grinding specially designed foundries, not playing the AH, not having an army of leadership alts.
I agree, playing the game should be rewarded as much as playing the AH. It takes way too long to get BiS any other way though, or is too expensive. I'm no stranger to spending cash on games. I spent a couple grand on World of Tanks over 3 years or so. But that was because when I spent money there I felt like I was progressing or got something like a new tank that got extra exp. and gold. I ended up with 14 tier ten tanks, or basically the equivalent of 14 BiS characters.
Here I have spent 6 months across 3 toons and am nowhere near having BiS enchantments, or arty gear.
Once I realized that paying cash to help me progress would cost upward of $1000 per guy I stopped spending too.
So what do you do when grinding something takes way too long or costs way more than you can afford to spend?...
i voted for 2.5M. 1 is too low.as many said before 5 is kind of fine as well.
suggestion:as many said add RP gain upon dungeon completion.Why not go further and give an rp reward along with other rewards in the dailies?
top one should be the foundries.it's a nice incentive for people to start trying out foundries and give a nice turn in the game.You can even go as far as to award rp in some individual approved non-exploitable foundries.
imagine how much more meanigfull it would be to run parties in foundries in order to gain rp.Yeah kind of 200+ new dungeon-ish content to play with
content problem:solved.dead foundry problem:solved.rp gain problem :solved
Other than the massive lag encountered with HEs, i think that makes sense. Give us content where teams of people, who are skilled and geared, actually struggle. Then the drop should be awesome and sellable. Agreed agreed agreed.
I agree with chem here, I find it absurd to GRIND for gears even though the dungeons are easy but its been ruled by RNG,
Why not a very hard content that can only be finished by a good coordinated team stead of MOB FEST!
StrawberryCheesecake TR BlackberryCheesecake CW
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Simply because, it's not too much, yet not too little. At least, that's what I think lol.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited November 2014
Current distribution is about what i expected, but glad to see this is backed up by data.
Yes, I suspect the people who voted the most expensive option are trolling too - probably think this whole debate is silly - have their gear and invested in RP - etc...
but I think what we _should_ do is consider everyone's perspectives and not just our own. Remember, if the game loses too many people there will be no one to play with and no income to support it, and the game will die.
Current distribution is about what i expected, but glad to see this is backed up by data.
Yes, I suspect the people who voted the most expensive option are trolling too - probably think this whole debate is silly - have their gear and invested in RP - etc...
but I think what we _should_ do is consider everyone's perspectives and not just our own. Remember, if the game loses too many people there will be no one to play with and no income to support it, and the game will die.
I'd like to hear out their rationale for why they think that each artifact should cost $620. At the very least, it will be an interesting read.
I was going to vote zero, but the option was not there.
In a Free-to-Play game, the cost of upgrading an Artifact (or Artifact Gear) should never be expressed in terms of cash, or even the "Cash-to-Zen-to-AD-to-Refining-Stones-from-the-AH" cycle. Too many in-game economic factors are tied in to it, such as the ZAX rate, how many Zen you buy (as the more you spend in one go, the less it costs per Zen) and the availability of refining stones and the drop rate in-game.
No one should be able to short-circuit the process by spending real world cash, at any vendor. That is sort of a form of cheating, or Pay-to-"the other thing".
A better poll would be how many refining points should it take, what the drop rate of stones and gear that can be used for RP should be and how much time should it take, on average, if you play the game for 2 hours a day, like a "normal" person.
Six months?
Twelve months?
So Obsessive Grinders would do it much more quickly.
I fully admit, I am not "normal" in that sense. I have often played 8-12 hours a day, sometimes more than 20 hours. And, on some occasions, like Module 2 events where it was worthwhile, I played for 24 hours or more, having a break only to eat and perform other needed functions. It really was just that much FUN! At first...
I do take frequent breaks most of the time, and these days I play for more like 4-8 hours. But I have never lost any Celestial Coins by not playing for more than 24 hours.
Current distribution is about what i expected, but glad to see this is backed up by data.
Yes, I suspect the people who voted the most expensive option are trolling too - probably think this whole debate is silly - have their gear and invested in RP - etc...
but I think what we _should_ do is consider everyone's perspectives and not just our own. Remember, if the game loses too many people there will be no one to play with and no income to support it, and the game will die.
Imo if we want a better gaming experience we need to learn from our mistakes. This game continues to bind stuff, have incredibly rare drops, and with arguments of quests being ninja-able they're making ninja-able quests next mod. It'd be in the best interests of gaming if they did burn so that others can learn from cryptics and pwe's mistakes because clearly they're not being learnt here. It sucks for those of us putting so much effort and money into the game, but otherwise it sets a message that you can be profitable when ignoring the playerbase on most of the important issues while having bad design. I want a game to be designed for an enjoyable experience first and foremost, not money.
Comments
I wouldn't have said it with such strong words, but I agree with you in principal. I think the best items should no come through money, AD, campaign, dailies, etc... They should come from doing difficult things and being sucessful. If there is stuff BoE, then those people who can farm should make ad. I would fully support such content.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
This distribution is pretty reasonable, for the most part.
I would like to hear someone who voted for the most expensive option to make some sort of reasonable argument for it. I personally don't understand, but maybe i would with an explanation.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
If you are a new player that didn't farm CN when this game launched, how many years would it take for you to get BIS items in module 5 before module 6 is introduces even more powercreep?
That question alone emphasizes player's disappointment in the balance between rewarding skilled gameplay and rewarding extra curricular activities.
Also, keep your feedback constructive. Let's suggest ways of improvement instead of constantly ranting and complaining. Also, let's not make derisive or insulting commentary towards other posters or their opinions.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Which part of the word "Legendary" is so hard to understand? It should take months to get something legendary, not minutes.
What about years? Should it take years to get an item to legendary? Because with the suggested changes it might take some people over a year to get one to legendary.
I sympathize with your desire to keep "Legendary" items actually "Legendary", but to do so now would only punish the players that do not currently have them and inadvertently reward the players which took advantage of the previously lower prices. i do not think that is entirely fair.
That is why I support a reduction in the cost/RP required to get an item to Legendary, not to make them "Low hanging fruit" but to allow the acquisition of a Legendary item to be an achievable goal for the majority of players in a reasonable time span. Call it 1 month of play averaging 20 hours per week, or 80 hours of lvl 60 play time which could be shortened by the expenditure of real funds. (I would also like to see a cap to the RP that could be bought with real money, but I can not figure out a way to implement that)
We don't want to farm like robots the lamest repetitive content for "legendary" items.
We want to run HARD content such as RAIDS to get them, that only skilled players are able to complete.
Actually I want it as hard as it can be, so the rewards will match the difficulty.
People want something to work for. Getting enough rp is no achievement and if you farm your artifact legit to legendary, you've just wasted your resources on something that will likely be outclassed by the time you actually get it to that rank. It still takes a lot of work to earn the rp for legendaries if it cost 2.5-5m per artifact. If we are to take months or years to get them to legendary (the game won't last years if it does last months) then using a tonne of rp is not the way to do it and you have no decent goals left to head towards. You complete the campaign doing boring dailies, complete the dungeon/raid or whatever then you've done everything apart from that very long term goal. It's so far out of reach that there's nothing to entice us to continue playing apart from current investments.
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The question is how much time is reasonable. I am NOT in favor of making the "grind" too short. Nor am I looking to prolong the grind unnecessarily. I figure 1 month at 20 hours per week(80 hours play time) would be a reasonable benchmark of time to get 1 item to Legendary.
I remember playing DDO and working on getting the Epic Sword of Shadows. Took me almost 9 months of constant play to get that item. Some people got lucky and made it in a shorter amount of time, others took longer. I NEVER want to work that long for 1 item ever again.
To make an Item epic in that game you had to have the non-epic version, the seal of the item, the shard of the item and the scroll of the item. In the case of the Sword of Shadows you had to get the seal from an epic mission that you could only run once a day and it had a low chance of appearing in the chest. Which was then rolled on by multiple people in the group. i saw it drop a handful of times but never won the roll. The scroll could drop from any mob in the epic content tied to the module that the sword came from and the Shard came from the Dragon Raid on epic difficulty. I had no real issue with the mechanics of getting that item, but the length of time required was simply horrible.
Usually, people do difficult raids and dungeons to get the BIS gear and not make macros to endlessly farm foundries....
Agree. The question is not how much it costs, but how long it takes. In Neverwinter's model about 3 months (at 20 hours per week) to fully gear a character in BiS items sounds reasonable. But that time should be spend playing the game. So running dungeons, skirmishes, PvP and a reasonable amount of dailies (1 hr/day max). But not grinding specially designed foundries, not playing the AH, not having an army of leadership alts.
From zebular nonetheless. Good point, thanks for reading and posting.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
no one is saying "minutes" here. And yes, BIS items should be difficult to get.
I think what i would like to see (and other like to see) them as rewards from difficult content.
Posting something at a very expensive price (say the 30M option), would make it not only inacceable for most, which isn't necessarily a bad thing),
Unreasonable meaning several hundred hours in foundries.
Now if it was 300+ hours of actual content, say running dungeons and fighting bosses, I might honestly feel differently. But it's not.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Same here. Which is why I finally got off my lazy bottom and fleshed out my experience idea more here:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?787761-Suggestion-for-a-new-quot-experience-quot-system-for-Artifacts-and-Equipment
I said RAIDING. As in uberhard content that you wipe 1 month trying to clear with 10-25 people in BiS gear and requires everyone on voicechat performing an elaborate choreography.
Then when the boss dies, it drops the sweet gear.
Give me HARD&REWARDING content, instead of derpAFKing in foundries.
PS: I dislike shooters.
PPS: MMOs also make gear periodically obsolete by introducing new one. If you spend all time farming foundry, where do you enjoy the game lol.
Farming and enjoyment should go hand in hand.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yup. Provides variety in the game. Provides a carrot on the stick to entice players to invest in this game (time, skill, effort, money).
If the only way to get legendary was the long arduous skill-less RNG-full heroic encounters (Tiamat), that would not sit well with a lot of people.
Let players progress through normal gameplay such as hard dungeons and raiding. Players getting better loot from harder dungeons and being able to use their shiny new gear to go after even more difficult dungeons with better rewards. Welcome to MMO 101. This is what makes gear progression in MMOs addicting. This is one of the big reasons why MMORPGs are popular (aside from the big social aspect).
I agree, playing the game should be rewarded as much as playing the AH. It takes way too long to get BiS any other way though, or is too expensive. I'm no stranger to spending cash on games. I spent a couple grand on World of Tanks over 3 years or so. But that was because when I spent money there I felt like I was progressing or got something like a new tank that got extra exp. and gold. I ended up with 14 tier ten tanks, or basically the equivalent of 14 BiS characters.
Here I have spent 6 months across 3 toons and am nowhere near having BiS enchantments, or arty gear.
Once I realized that paying cash to help me progress would cost upward of $1000 per guy I stopped spending too.
So what do you do when grinding something takes way too long or costs way more than you can afford to spend?...
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suggestion:as many said add RP gain upon dungeon completion.Why not go further and give an rp reward along with other rewards in the dailies?
top one should be the foundries.it's a nice incentive for people to start trying out foundries and give a nice turn in the game.You can even go as far as to award rp in some individual approved non-exploitable foundries.
imagine how much more meanigfull it would be to run parties in foundries in order to gain rp.Yeah kind of 200+ new dungeon-ish content to play with
content problem:solved.dead foundry problem:solved.rp gain problem :solved
Why not a very hard content that can only be finished by a good coordinated team stead of MOB FEST!
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
Simply because, it's not too much, yet not too little. At least, that's what I think lol.
Yes, I suspect the people who voted the most expensive option are trolling too - probably think this whole debate is silly - have their gear and invested in RP - etc...
but I think what we _should_ do is consider everyone's perspectives and not just our own. Remember, if the game loses too many people there will be no one to play with and no income to support it, and the game will die.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I'd like to hear out their rationale for why they think that each artifact should cost $620. At the very least, it will be an interesting read.
In a Free-to-Play game, the cost of upgrading an Artifact (or Artifact Gear) should never be expressed in terms of cash, or even the "Cash-to-Zen-to-AD-to-Refining-Stones-from-the-AH" cycle. Too many in-game economic factors are tied in to it, such as the ZAX rate, how many Zen you buy (as the more you spend in one go, the less it costs per Zen) and the availability of refining stones and the drop rate in-game.
No one should be able to short-circuit the process by spending real world cash, at any vendor. That is sort of a form of cheating, or Pay-to-"the other thing".
A better poll would be how many refining points should it take, what the drop rate of stones and gear that can be used for RP should be and how much time should it take, on average, if you play the game for 2 hours a day, like a "normal" person.
Six months?
Twelve months?
So Obsessive Grinders would do it much more quickly.
I fully admit, I am not "normal" in that sense. I have often played 8-12 hours a day, sometimes more than 20 hours. And, on some occasions, like Module 2 events where it was worthwhile, I played for 24 hours or more, having a break only to eat and perform other needed functions. It really was just that much FUN! At first...
I do take frequent breaks most of the time, and these days I play for more like 4-8 hours. But I have never lost any Celestial Coins by not playing for more than 24 hours.
And I do not even HAVE any Artifact Gear yet.
Imo if we want a better gaming experience we need to learn from our mistakes. This game continues to bind stuff, have incredibly rare drops, and with arguments of quests being ninja-able they're making ninja-able quests next mod. It'd be in the best interests of gaming if they did burn so that others can learn from cryptics and pwe's mistakes because clearly they're not being learnt here. It sucks for those of us putting so much effort and money into the game, but otherwise it sets a message that you can be profitable when ignoring the playerbase on most of the important issues while having bad design. I want a game to be designed for an enjoyable experience first and foremost, not money.