I actually like having to make these interesting decisions now (well when it is done that is). I prefer to make them outside of a pure min/max approach too, but I sort of like to get a feel ahead of times in the event the way I want is a loss in the long haul.
So i checked that build announced prematurely by some people as ,,1-shot''.
So starting from begining:
3 feats in encounter power=6% dmg on encounter improved
3 feats in disciple of strenght
rest feats are not important in this test
7,5% more damage from profound set
So i chose full executor path with:
15% crit severity
additional damage following second column
Last moments
Shadowborn
25% armor resistance ignored while in stealth
Shadow of Demise
from saboteur path-shady preparations
Race halfling with 127% crit severity basic(p.vorpal), 19 strenght, 5500 power 500 combat advantage(all that interest us)
So i used:
Shadow strike
Impossible to catch
Lashing blade
Gloaming cut
Duelist flurry
First strike
Tenacious concealment
Bloodbath
Courage breaker
Ok so i used it first on enemy which i penetrated full armor(not hard with 49% damage resistance ignored). From stealth with first strike. It hit him for 33000 not deflected. He died instantly, but risen with soul. If he had more hp it would be followed by shadow of demise around 11000 dmg, so basically 44000. It is in the best case scenario. When enemy deflect it it's 16500 dmg and few more thousands with shadow of demise. Also hitting by lashing blade CW is problematic most of times he dodged it or absorbed half of this damage by shield, if it deflect dmg was very weak only few thousands. Then he goes to counter attack and it isn't pleasant. Then we have to wait again in stealth for lashing blade which is much weakier without first strike. One more thing is that duelist flurry with this setup is deadly but cw dodges it easly now that it's range is nerfed. As example i can say that same person who has around 30 k hp and i penetrated all his armor i used duelist flurry and i killed him by one serie from stealth but he didn't dodge so it is not good prognosis. I checked both p.bilethorn and p.vorpal and he died by one serie.
When it comes to real pvp domination i could only suspect because i would not find game on preview anyway. But looking at it i think that this build might work on middle when players are focused on someone else than you. To hit unexpecting with all bonuses with first strike. While it comes to 1v1 situations against pro players i don't see this working well. Survival of TR is just too weak. WE have to take to consideration few things-enemy can dodge it, enemy can deflect it, enemy can have immune and we won't have time to wait longer with it(we don't want to hit him without stealth right?), and one more important this is as @f2pma said enemy will most likely hear us coming so he will dodge desperately-you can count on it. Rest of fight is very problematic we go back to stealth and with low stealth and enemy on tail it will be hard to hold on rest time in stealth for time we need to recharge lashing blade. In theory there is possibility that we will do it with bait and lots of dodges but pro enemy won't let us wait 8 seconds to leave fight so we won't get another first strike bonus. Also as fight goes on enemy has more arguments than we have and it's more of trying to survive than hurt him since each other class has more hp and offensive encounters. So in 1v1 situations this build most likely will fail(even with offhand for 100% stealth reduction on dmg). While it comes to other classes than TR, CW and HR(wild medicine). DC will ahve lots of immune and armor upgrades which will help him a lot with blocking dmg not to mention fast healing from his feats bonuses. GF with shield will have one more way of blocking our lashing blade and GWF will be problematic with intimidation but also with super fast runing which will get TR frustrated. They can basically run and will run as far as u can reach by eyes when they sniff you are coming with first strike and lashing bladeso good luck using it on them on begun of fight. While it comes to following progress of fight they will harras you with aoe and deadly dmg.
Summing up in each class cases in 1v1 fight we are most likely in disadvantage. Experience players have their ways of dealing with first strike lashing as i already mentioned in this post. I hope players who were going to use this build will reconsider it. If the playstyle in which this build which i personally call ,,one-chance lashing'' fits them.
From my tests combo of lashing blade and shadow of demise is deadly against unexpected players and in this case i think it could be succesfull.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
So i checked that build announced prematurely by some people as ,,1-shot''.
So starting from begining:
3 feats in encounter power=6% dmg on encounter improved
3 feats in disciple of strenght
rest feats are not important in this test
7,5% more damage from profound set
So i chose full executor path with:
15% crit severity
additional damage following second column
Last moments
Shadowborn
25% armor resistance ignored while in stealth
Shadow of Demise
from saboteur path-shady preparations
Race halfling with 127% crit severity basic(p.vorpal), 19 strenght, 5500 power 500 combat advantage(all that interest us)
So i used:
Shadow strike
Impossible to catch
Lashing blade
Gloaming cut
Duelist flurry
First strike
Tenacious concealment
Bloodbath
Courage breaker
Ok so i used it first on enemy which i penetrated full armor(not hard with 49% damage resistance ignored). From stealth with first strike. It hit him for 33000 not deflected. He died instantly, but risen with soul. If he had more hp it would be followed by shadow of demise around 11000 dmg, so basically 44000. It is in the best case scenario. When enemy deflect it it's 16500 dmg and few more thousands with shadow of demise. Also hitting by lashing blade CW is problematic most of times he dodged it or absorbed half of this damage by shield, if it deflect dmg was very weak only few thousands. Then he goes to counter attack and it isn't pleasant. Then we have to wait again in stealth for lashing blade which is much weakier without first strike. One more thing is that duelist flurry with this setup is deadly but cw dodges it easly now that it's range is nerfed. As example i can say that same person who has around 30 k hp and i penetrated all his armor i used duelist flurry and i killed him by one serie from stealth but he didn't dodge so it is not good prognosis. I checked both p.bilethorn and p.vorpal and he died by one serie.
When it comes to real pvp domination i could only suspect because i would not find game on preview anyway. But looking at it i think that this build might work on middle when players are focused on someone else than you. To hit unexpecting with all bonuses with first strike. While it comes to 1v1 situations against pro players i don't see this working well. Survival of TR is just too weak. WE have to take to consideration few things-enemy can dodge it, enemy can deflect it, enemy can have immune and we won't have time to wait longer with it(we don't want to hit him without stealth right?), and one more important this is as @f2pma said enemy will most likely hear us coming so he will dodge desperately-you can count on it. Rest of fight is very problematic we go back to stealth and with low stealth and enemy on tail it will be hard to hold on rest time in stealth for time we need to recharge lashing blade. In theory there is possibility that we will do it with bait and lots of dodges but pro enemy won't let us wait 8 seconds to leave fight so we won't get another first strike bonus. Also as fight goes on enemy has more arguments than we have and it's more of trying to survive than hurt him since each other class has more hp and offensive encounters. So in 1v1 situations this build most likely will fail(even with offhand for 100% stealth reduction on dmg). While it comes to other classes than TR, CW and HR(wild medicine). DC will ahve lots of immune and armor upgrades which will help him a lot with blocking dmg not to mention fast healing from his feats bonuses. GF with shield will have one more way of blocking our lashing blade and GWF will be problematic with intimidation but also with super fast runing which will get TR frustrated. They can basically run and will run as far as u can reach by eyes when they sniff you are coming with first strike and lashing bladeso good luck using it on them on begun of fight. While it comes to following progress of fight they will harras you with aoe and deadly dmg.
Summing up in each class cases in 1v1 fight we are most likely in disadvantage. Experience players have their ways of dealing with first strike lashing as i already mentioned in this post. I hope players who were going to use this build will reconsider it. If the playstyle in which this build which i personally call ,,one-chance lashing'' fits them.
From my tests combo of lashing blade and shadow of demise is deadly against unexpected players and in this case i think it could be succesfull.
Congratulations to reaching a conclusion the rest of us have moved past and beyond two weeks ago. It's nice to see that you're finally in the mood for testing more stuff.
... but kidding aside, that's about the exact reason the current TR trend in the preview has basically simmered down to perma/Sab builds, rather than Executors.
Although the damage potential is much lower, Sab builds relying on GC as main component of attack has a nice balance of [strong hits + overall survivability + ease of combat management]. It's a nice hit-&-run build with enough survivability and safety to contest within a node directly.
I'd recommend either of two variations, the first being the "Brollax/Nanner" type, with standard ITC/Dazing/SS/GC/optional at-will, or "Vexation" type, ITC/ImpactShot/SS/GC/optional at-will. From what I've seen when those players use it, there are some subtle differences. Seems the former is a bit more high-risk-high-reward type, whereas the latter is the very careful, cautious, and "survivalist" type. If you bring your power up a little higher, I'd guess you'd probably be reaching the 'comfort zone'.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
So i checked that build announced prematurely by some people as ,,1-shot''.
So starting from begining:
3 feats in encounter power=6% dmg on encounter improved
3 feats in disciple of strenght
rest feats are not important in this test
7,5% more damage from profound set
So i chose full executor path with:
15% crit severity
additional damage following second column
Last moments
Shadowborn
25% armor resistance ignored while in stealth
Shadow of Demise
from saboteur path-shady preparations
Race halfling with 127% crit severity basic(p.vorpal), 19 strenght, 5500 power 500 combat advantage(all that interest us)
So i used:
Shadow strike
Impossible to catch
Lashing blade
Gloaming cut
Duelist flurry
First strike
Tenacious concealment
Bloodbath
Courage breaker
Ok so i used it first on enemy which i penetrated full armor(not hard with 49% damage resistance ignored). From stealth with first strike. It hit him for 33000 not deflected. He died instantly, but risen with soul. If he had more hp it would be followed by shadow of demise around 11000 dmg, so basically 44000. It is in the best case scenario. When enemy deflect it it's 16500 dmg and few more thousands with shadow of demise. Also hitting by lashing blade CW is problematic most of times he dodged it or absorbed half of this damage by shield, if it deflect dmg was very weak only few thousands. Then he goes to counter attack and it isn't pleasant. Then we have to wait again in stealth for lashing blade which is much weakier without first strike. One more thing is that duelist flurry with this setup is deadly but cw dodges it easly now that it's range is nerfed. As example i can say that same person who has around 30 k hp and i penetrated all his armor i used duelist flurry and i killed him by one serie from stealth but he didn't dodge so it is not good prognosis. I checked both p.bilethorn and p.vorpal and he died by one serie.
When it comes to real pvp domination i could only suspect because i would not find game on preview anyway. But looking at it i think that this build might work on middle when players are focused on someone else than you. To hit unexpecting with all bonuses with first strike. While it comes to 1v1 situations against pro players i don't see this working well. Survival of TR is just too weak. WE have to take to consideration few things-enemy can dodge it, enemy can deflect it, enemy can have immune and we won't have time to wait longer with it(we don't want to hit him without stealth right?), and one more important this is as @f2pma said enemy will most likely hear us coming so he will dodge desperately-you can count on it. Rest of fight is very problematic we go back to stealth and with low stealth and enemy on tail it will be hard to hold on rest time in stealth for time we need to recharge lashing blade. In theory there is possibility that we will do it with bait and lots of dodges but pro enemy won't let us wait 8 seconds to leave fight so we won't get another first strike bonus. Also as fight goes on enemy has more arguments than we have and it's more of trying to survive than hurt him since each other class has more hp and offensive encounters. So in 1v1 situations this build most likely will fail(even with offhand for 100% stealth reduction on dmg). While it comes to other classes than TR, CW and HR(wild medicine). DC will ahve lots of immune and armor upgrades which will help him a lot with blocking dmg not to mention fast healing from his feats bonuses. GF with shield will have one more way of blocking our lashing blade and GWF will be problematic with intimidation but also with super fast runing which will get TR frustrated. They can basically run and will run as far as u can reach by eyes when they sniff you are coming with first strike and lashing bladeso good luck using it on them on begun of fight. While it comes to following progress of fight they will harras you with aoe and deadly dmg.
Summing up in each class cases in 1v1 fight we are most likely in disadvantage. Experience players have their ways of dealing with first strike lashing as i already mentioned in this post. I hope players who were going to use this build will reconsider it. If the playstyle in which this build which i personally call ,,one-chance lashing'' fits them.
From my tests combo of lashing blade and shadow of demise is deadly against unexpected players and in this case i think it could be succesfull.
full dps TR will never be viable until they reduce lashing cooldown to 12 sec and make first strike resets every 8 sec regardless the combat status.
i would rather leave the game than play executioner as it's now.
exposed weaknes (-25% armor on target) apply while stealthed and using an encounter? i tested it several times with a trainimg puppet and ACT but couldn't see a difference.
Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
I was thinking I read somewhere that the training dummies had no armor and thus such things like this would never reveal their capabilities. I think damage bonus effects do but not resistance countering effects.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I was thinking I read somewhere that the training dummies had no armor and thus such things like this would never reveal their capabilities. I think damage bonus effects do but not resistance countering effects.
Yes. You can't use dummies for testing resistance because dummies have none.
Congratulations to reaching a conclusion the rest of us have moved past and beyond two weeks ago. It's nice to see that you're finally in the mood for testing more stuff.
... but kidding aside, that's about the exact reason the current TR trend in the preview has basically simmered down to perma/Sab builds, rather than Executors.
Although the damage potential is much lower, Sab builds relying on GC as main component of attack has a nice balance of [strong hits + overall survivability + ease of combat management]. It's a nice hit-&-run build with enough survivability and safety to contest within a node directly.
I'd recommend either of two variations, the first being the "Brollax/Nanner" type, with standard ITC/Dazing/SS/GC/optional at-will, or "Vexation" type, ITC/ImpactShot/SS/GC/optional at-will. From what I've seen when those players use it, there are some subtle differences. Seems the former is a bit more high-risk-high-reward type, whereas the latter is the very careful, cautious, and "survivalist" type. If you bring your power up a little higher, I'd guess you'd probably be reaching the 'comfort zone'.
he beat both brollax and nanners in 1v1 with sab
no need to teach him
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
*waits for patch notes*
While it was probably a good move to tease with upcoming changes early in the week to alleviate various concerns, it did kill a lot of motivation to go try things without those features implemented.
There was relatively little new feedback this week, so I don't think it was just me. Same went for the DC thread.
he beat both brollax and nanners in 1v1 with sab
no need to teach him
*shrugs* Then good for him! You notice the number of his whines have significantly subsided since after (I'm guessing) he actually TRIED the stuff a little bit more?
I'm also noticing the same with you, as well. *winks*
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I've been running around IWD for the better part of 2 days testing each feat tree and whats possible as well as a couple of CN runs. From a PvE standpoint, I'm not as optimistic as others are here as I haven't seen a whole lot that is going to help TR's be more of a "hot commodity" in dungeon runs. I am currently running a Master Infiltrator TR in Battlefield Skulkers setup. In a nutshell, here's what I've concluded:
1) Saboteur feat tree is grossly overpowered via stealth. It gives players the tools to solo HE's while eating a cheese sandwich and watching reruns of Family Guy. Utilizing the capstone will ensure that stealth is constant if shadow strike and gloaming cut are used. I never popped the DC artifact once in IWD (and my INT was a whopping 13). While in a group setting, gloaming cut proved to me incredibly clunky and slow and in most cases, it was impractical. DPS is not as high as others have stated it might be for several reasons in a dungeon setting due to constant red aoe that we can't stand in. This required a switch-out from gloaming cut to cloud of steel, thus negating a lot stealth damage. Another point to make here is that party members considered this feat tree, the least desirable in a party setting due to the constant stealth and more perceived threat focused on them. All in all I found this an incredible boring and almost exploitive way to play.
2) The scoundrel feat tree is more fun to play as it gave me more utility to a party. Soloing was a different experience, however this was also relatively negative as I felt without the stealth I had much less survivability in IWD and I had to rely more on ranged attacks as well and quick dazes to be effective. While in a party setting, I ran a couple of dungeons and really loved the skullcracker capstone. With that said, it didn't hold the utility I thought it would as the CW would already stun/freeze things, GF would prone things, etc... There was already lots of that happening and clearing the dungeon probably would have been much more effective with a more dps-focused route. i can see the utility of this capstone with certain party compositions though and I think it could be very effective on lots of mobs. On boss fights I found the dazes to be useless and something the party could live without.
3) The executioner feat tree was much more dps-oriented, however it was exceptionally difficult to stay alive without using healing potions. Running through IWD with these feats proved to be MUCH more difficult and challenging. Stealth seemed an afterthought and the TR's lack of tankiness readily shone through. Within a party atmosphere it dealt relatively strong dps, but again had very very poor survivability.
In order to assess party utility I needed to objectively cycle through my characters as well as talk to other party members I run with and see what it brought to the table. The truth wasn't too good even after preview tests. TR is better dps-wise yes, however, the ability of ranged classes to decimate mobs and even single targets quickly, really puts us TR's in an awkward position. Honestly, our dps isn't and will not be on par with control wizards, scourge warlocks or even good hunter rangers. This leaves us fighting for position with the great weapon fighter most of the time and probably the new version of the devoted cleric coming out (even in Mod 5).
With that said, the order in which I would have to chose the build would revolve around:
- Survivability (most important)
- DPS (this is all we bring to the table now)
- Utility (bonus perks such as dazes and slows)
With Master Infiltrator, this would leave me no choice, but to go with a Saboteur/Executioner or Saboteur/Scoundrel hybrid, therefore having to utilize gloaming cut for stealth replenishing and probably removing the much-improved and hard-hitting duelist flurry from my bar altogether.
I am going to now pursue the Whisperknife TR builds and see if there is anything decent to play.
MI Gloaming cut sabo is the only legit stealthspam build on mod 5 because it still rewarding people with stealth metter, not decreasing it. Other build already utilize the quick re-stealth mechanic just as dev intend too.
Also Cloud of Steel shine with sabo Whisperknife build (not dealing huge spike, but somehow manageable damage with piercing feat).
There is a LOT of changes, will TR get skills reset? I think we will need them. btw, I liked most of the changes, specially to the Feats. the old ones just seems too useless to me.
There is a LOT of changes, will TR get skills reset? I think we will need them. btw, I liked most of the changes, specially to the Feats. the old ones just seems too useless to me.
TRs are getting only the feats reset, I think. You'd probably have to buy a respec token for a full reset.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
TRs are getting only the feats reset, I think. You'd probably have to buy a respec token for a full reset.
And not all the feats reset I think just the feat trees of sabo/exe/scoundrel, and not feats that remain the same. I still have those 5 pts in shocking from exe on preview after the reset
*shrugs* Then good for him! You notice the number of his whines have significantly subsided since after (I'm guessing) he actually TRIED the stuff a little bit more?
I'm also noticing the same with you, as well. *winks*
i tried executioner its HAMSTER,scoundrell not so good
and last i tried sab and has potential but
i personaly dont like the changes because its 100% different then now
but its to soon to tell after 30min coz i never played with such setup
still i hate that gc im not sure i even want to play with that atwill
i tried executioner its HAMSTER,scoundrell not so good
and last i tried sab and has potential but
i personaly dont like the changes because its 100% different then now
but its to soon to tell after 30min coz i never played with such setup
still i hate that gc im not sure i even want to play with that atwill
I'm sure you'll do fine. You only need some more time to adapt.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And not all the feats reset I think just the feat trees of sabo/exe/scoundrel, and not feats that remain the same. I still have those 5 pts in shocking from exe on preview after the reset
Expect a full feat tree respec. I think that was fixed in the latest patch to preview, I know it was for me.
As a follow-up to my preview post I have gone ahead a play-tested a Whisperknife TR with a Scoundrel build on the preview and found it to be much more entertaining experience in some ways. The constant motion I needed to be kind of reminds me of my current TR build and I really like it. with one big negative; there is no damage compared to the other builds I have tested. In fact, soloing IWD was much more challenging especially since it was a constant Vengeance Pursuit, Dazing Strike, Shadow Strike rotation with ranged spam. So things took forever to die. Another MAJOR drawback was the length of time disheartening strike took as an at-will and the fact that it didn't replenish stealth making it a very singular at-will to use. Also duellist flurry is completely ineffective with this paragon path (so congratulations devs, you buffed an at-will no one is going to want to use now... :P)
Running this build in a CN party was not very effective at all I found. Damage was extremely low and I was regulated to using dazes and stuns like smoke to help the party rather than actual strong dps. This is not what I had expected as it is currently no different of a role than my current TR and to a man, the party preferred the master infiltrator style of TR due to the increase in dps as opposed to the whiskperknife build.
I had expected modifications to the TR to include:
1) Stronger DPS, offset by more robust defense outside of stealth to make us viable melee options in dungeons. We still can't stand in red, like other melee classes can and continue dpsing.
2) Feat trees to hold much more variety than just 2 ways of playing effectively in party and solo settings
Again, Whiskperknife plays extremely fun. You need to think quickly to be effective and be ready for a prolonged fight. Unfortunately in groups, this isn't that viable unless you aren't concerned in anyway with dps contribution (and this is what our class is supposed to primarily do apparently). If they buffed the damage output from this type of build, I could see a lot of players gravitating towards it though.
So far, I can't find a happy medium with any build and will unfortunately have to go with the one that will be of the most use to the party. If anyone has any build suggestions, that doesn't involve gloaming cut or complete ranged spam with intermittent dazes... please feel free to post ideas as I am open to anything at this point.
These are just my opinions for my play-style and what I've noticed in group settings and with talking to others. I hope that the developers read these posts and take these suggestions under advisement from a long-time TR player.
As a follow-up to my preview post I have gone ahead a play-tested a Whisperknife TR with a Scoundrel build on the preview and found it to be much more entertaining experience in some ways. The constant motion I needed to be kind of reminds me of my current TR build and I really like it. with one big negative; there is no damage compared to the other builds I have tested. In fact, soloing IWD was much more challenging especially since it was a constant Vengeance Pursuit, Dazing Strike, Shadow Strike rotation with ranged spam. So things took forever to die. Another MAJOR drawback was the length of time disheartening strike took as an at-will and the fact that it didn't replenish stealth making it a very singular at-will to use. Also duellist flurry is completely ineffective with this paragon path (so congratulations devs, you buffed an at-will no one is going to want to use now... :P)
Running this build in a CN party was not very effective at all I found. Damage was extremely low and I was regulated to using dazes and stuns like smoke to help the party rather than actual strong dps. This is not what I had expected as it is currently no different of a role than my current TR and to a man, the party preferred the master infiltrator style of TR due to the increase in dps as opposed to the whiskperknife build.
I had expected modifications to the TR to include:
1) Stronger DPS, offset by more robust defense outside of stealth to make us viable melee options in dungeons. We still can't stand in red, like other melee classes can and continue dpsing.
2) Feat trees to hold much more variety than just 2 ways of playing effectively in party and solo settings
Again, Whiskperknife plays extremely fun. You need to think quickly to be effective and be ready for a prolonged fight. Unfortunately in groups, this isn't that viable unless you aren't concerned in anyway with dps contribution (and this is what our class is supposed to primarily do apparently). If they buffed the damage output from this type of build, I could see a lot of players gravitating towards it though.
So far, I can't find a happy medium with any build and will unfortunately have to go with the one that will be of the most use to the party. If anyone has any build suggestions, that doesn't involve gloaming cut or complete ranged spam with intermittent dazes... please feel free to post ideas as I am open to anything at this point.
These are just my opinions for my play-style and what I've noticed in group settings and with talking to others. I hope that the developers read these posts and take these suggestions under advisement from a long-time TR player.
...the ranged VP/Dazing/SS + CoS/DHS WK build is for PvP, not for PvE. In PvE purposes even I use something else, the most promising I find being the AoE TR build.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
...the ranged VP/Dazing/SS + CoS/DHS WK build is for PvP, not for PvE. In PvE purposes even I use something else, the most promising I find being the AoE TR build.
Thats nice Kweassa... but I'm not following your build, although I see its pretty similar! I do my own stuff xD. Smoke/PotB (hate blitz) is good for aoe with this build as well... but still... doesn't solve the primary issue in pve which is primarily being dps in dungeons... not an ancillary controller. That's what my TR is now... I don't want that for it any longer.
As far as the rotations go... that rotation can absolutely be used in pve soloing effectively... and in lots of cases will have to be since we are so squishy. Its a fun rotation and deft strike can make it even more fun... AOE encounters such as smoke bomb (I run this a lot) and Path of the Blade (hate this) have their uses (I find blitz to be absolutely worthless with my playstyle), but I don't always want to run with them.
Even if I slot lashing blade (with dazing strike), my dps output is not what it will be with the other 2 feat trees. Basically the build is fun to play in pve, but has limited utility (constant dazes) as most dungeons are already easy-mode with the power creep in this game. People want to clear dungeons quickly and effectively and that usually means burning things quickly. All parties I've ever been in go something like this... CW/SW immediately clears 1/2 HP from elite mobs with dailies... CW controls... melee wipes up... and this usually involves a GF and GWF that can stand in red circles while we are regulated to darting in and out completely limiting our damage to single shots and nothing really sustained. Dazes aren't really needed in many situations, nor do they help with ranged melee being so powerful now. This is an unfortunate truth to pve now.
The WK scoundrel is more or less a pvp build (and probably very effective too), but I don't see much utility for it in pve. Just one man's opinion is all. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong in the upcoming module though. Again... would be nice to have an at-will with WK that does NOT deplete stealth... this would make this much much more attractive for pve and I may swing my favor in it's direction for my next Mod 5 build... but as of now, I'm still left with no satisfactory option with how I'd like to play. Right now I've
Kweassa, I tried your pvp build with a friend the other day in IWD and its was very impressive xD. He had a difficult time with the stuns and in some ways found it harder to play against this type of TR rather than a MI sabo/scoundrel TR. I'm pretty sure you are going to find quite a bit of success with this build in pvp especially with the changes to smoke bomb xD.
I wonder if they'll be able to release another update before Friday. I really want to see how Smoke Bomb fits into my WK Scoundrel's build... and I have all these different gear setups to try it with....
I'm going to have to figure out whether I want a Disheartening or a DF artifact weapon on him too. I've got 6 weapons to salvage into shards to buy one right away, but this might end up being a tough call. (And I do have a CoS one I've got a few levels on, but it's not a power I've tended to slot on this particular character, so I don't want to invest in it heavily.)
DF weapon is worthless now... Its either gloaming cut and cloud of steel, or disheartening strike and cloud of steel... I feel your pain.
Thats nice Kweassa... but I'm not following your build, although I see its pretty similar! I do my own stuff xD. Smoke/PotB (hate blitz) is good for aoe with this build as well... but still... doesn't solve the primary issue in pve which is primarily being dps in dungeons... not an ancillary controller. That's what my TR is now... I don't want that for it any longer.
Well, I have a different philosophy for the TR in terms of PvE. Designating a role as "DPS" IMO is severely misleading in that DPS is simply a byproduct of the certain amount of functions a class handles. People have been basing their assumptions and standards for way too long upon the greatly warped/distorted party formation comprised of solely GWF/CWs and the "steamroll" mentality they represent, that eventually everyone just blindly follows the its code.
However, I'd like to urge the players to try and remember where the real "standard" should be placed upon. Obviously when the game was first made, any developer would have found it ideal to have the classic "rainbow party" comprised of 5 different classes with each differing roles. It is that 'starting' point where we should look and find the role of the TR is.
In that apect, when a party is formed it has three key functions which it cannot do without; namely, "the Heals, the Deals, and the Meatshields". Otherwise also known as the "Holy Trinity" of tanks, healers, and damage dealers. The problem is, that makes up only 3 of the 5 party slots. What's the rest 2 slots do?
IMO, those 2 slots are the "Wildcards", or "Liberos", if you're familiar with football terms. These are the slots reserved for "support" classes which are considered to be versatile in the fact that they perform a wide range of fucntions according to the situation. When there is need for extra DPS, these guys come into action to add in more damage. When there is need for more control, then these guys come and assist in that role. One of the situations which you most often meet in tough PvE content is overwhelming number of mobs -- in which case usually the party's main tank grabs hold the aggro of the strongest one, while the other members are tasked with the job of "culling the weak" and making short work so the party can concentrate on the main threat. And in these situations, these guys serve the role as either secondary tanks or relief givers to the party's more vulnerable main DPS/heal roles.
And it is in this aspect, the problem with NW PvE lies in not with the classes, but the content of the game. It's so damned easy that there aren't any variety of threatening situations where support roles can prove their worth.
It is, IMO, precisely the reason why any class that feels neglected in PvE, absolutely MUST demand the developers a more difficult and challenging game content is given to them -- not the easy-peasy dungeon milk-runs we have where any PuG formation with any number of classes can easily take on. When the game's easy, you don't need support.
It is precisely in this aspect, IMO, where the role of the TR lies. The tougher breed of fighters have their own roles as main tanks. CWs usually take on the role of DPS, and healers are healers. These guys cannot forego their own duties to do something else, otherwise the efficiency of the party suffers. That's where classes like HRs or TRs should come in, where they are given freedom to do a wide range of actions according to the situation. The tragedy of NW PvE lies in that the game's so simple and easy that there aren't many situations to act accordingly in the first place -- and from that point begins the hardships of being a TR.
After mod5, I believe the next task for us TRs, is to start lobbying for "ultra-hard mode" dungeons with significantly higher loot, with much stronger mobs, more difficult layout, and content designed specifically to neuter the DPS-oriented milk-run parties, and makes it absolutely necessary to form a good, balanced party.
...
For starters, my next task will be probably focused on requesting for "damage-type resistant mobs" to be introduced into the game. Mobs that are more resistant to physical damage than to arcane/magic, and vice versa... as well as more lethal and cunning mob powers and spells, such as (for example) anti-magic shell, or mass-dispel effects that disrupt DC or CW self buffs and etc..
It is my belief, that the content we already have, starting from level 1 to lv60 Sharandar, Dreadring, IWD and ToD challenges... this is more than enough to cater for any newbies or casual players. Anything that comes AFTER Tiamat, IMO, I would urge the developers to change their way of thinking, and assume the players that engage in that content would already be veterans by then. And then, a dungeon/zone content with difficulty high enough to be fitting of those veteran players and higher GS scores (based on 18k~20k) is only fitting, where lv65 elite mobs are considered the standard, armed to the teeth with anti-magic type of resistances, dispel powers, CCs, etc etc..
...
I remember when I used to play City of Heroes. Players actually worked out a combat plan in those times, where the tanks would charge in and grab aggro, buff/debuffers would then start doing their work directly after, followed by the DPS. In this precision combat environment, a stupid gameplay, a loss of aggro, etc etc.. would mean party wipes... and that's what we need. Dungeons tough enough to cause party wipes even from the start.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And it is in this aspect, the problem with NW PvE lies in not with the classes, but the content of the game. It's so damned easy that there aren't any variety of threatening situations where support roles can prove their worth.
I couldn't agree with you more on the above statement.
Kweassa, those ideas you have for a party are great. They really are. Although I respect everyone's opinion, that's not the reality we are in and unless you have a designated party you run with all the time willing to role-play, then there is going to be disappointment. This game is about one thing and one thing only really in pve and that's damage. This can be proven further with respect to devoted clerics getting buffs in Mod 5 to improve.... their damage (and I'll bet you dollars to donuts, they will probably do comparable damage to rogues in dungeons).
The problem with pegging the trickster rogue in a utility role (I wouldn't even peg it as a support class) is that it does a lot of things pretty well, but does nothing really really well. Hence, we have a jack-of-all-trades scenario in a game that in no way, shape or form rewards that type of game play. So if you want to play a utility class in NW, you are often going to be left in the dark. I'm not happy with a utility role for that reason.
You also mentioned that higher GS players (i.e. 18k to 20k) would benefit from these types of dungeons and I disagree with bringing GS into ANY discussion regarding game play as one is not mutually exclusive to the other. Also GS is not indicative of a veteran player in any way. I'm a veteran player and have a 16k SW when I easily have the equipment to be much much higher. Why? Because it allocates stats better and hits my softcaps making me a stronger player than most 19k SW's. Now, GS may be very relevant in pvp, however not so much at all in pve.
I do fully agree with you that the developers need to look at ways to engage different aspects of parties, and punish parties who don't properly plan out methods of attack and strategies, but that's another discussion and one that should absolutely have its own constructive thread.
They've had 5 modules now to get it right and still the pve TR will be slotted into an afterthought role.
Comments
So starting from begining:
So i chose full executor path with:
Race halfling with 127% crit severity basic(p.vorpal), 19 strenght, 5500 power 500 combat advantage(all that interest us)
So i used:
Ok so i used it first on enemy which i penetrated full armor(not hard with 49% damage resistance ignored). From stealth with first strike. It hit him for 33000 not deflected. He died instantly, but risen with soul. If he had more hp it would be followed by shadow of demise around 11000 dmg, so basically 44000. It is in the best case scenario. When enemy deflect it it's 16500 dmg and few more thousands with shadow of demise. Also hitting by lashing blade CW is problematic most of times he dodged it or absorbed half of this damage by shield, if it deflect dmg was very weak only few thousands. Then he goes to counter attack and it isn't pleasant. Then we have to wait again in stealth for lashing blade which is much weakier without first strike. One more thing is that duelist flurry with this setup is deadly but cw dodges it easly now that it's range is nerfed. As example i can say that same person who has around 30 k hp and i penetrated all his armor i used duelist flurry and i killed him by one serie from stealth but he didn't dodge so it is not good prognosis. I checked both p.bilethorn and p.vorpal and he died by one serie.
When it comes to real pvp domination i could only suspect because i would not find game on preview anyway. But looking at it i think that this build might work on middle when players are focused on someone else than you. To hit unexpecting with all bonuses with first strike. While it comes to 1v1 situations against pro players i don't see this working well. Survival of TR is just too weak. WE have to take to consideration few things-enemy can dodge it, enemy can deflect it, enemy can have immune and we won't have time to wait longer with it(we don't want to hit him without stealth right?), and one more important this is as @f2pma said enemy will most likely hear us coming so he will dodge desperately-you can count on it. Rest of fight is very problematic we go back to stealth and with low stealth and enemy on tail it will be hard to hold on rest time in stealth for time we need to recharge lashing blade. In theory there is possibility that we will do it with bait and lots of dodges but pro enemy won't let us wait 8 seconds to leave fight so we won't get another first strike bonus. Also as fight goes on enemy has more arguments than we have and it's more of trying to survive than hurt him since each other class has more hp and offensive encounters. So in 1v1 situations this build most likely will fail(even with offhand for 100% stealth reduction on dmg). While it comes to other classes than TR, CW and HR(wild medicine). DC will ahve lots of immune and armor upgrades which will help him a lot with blocking dmg not to mention fast healing from his feats bonuses. GF with shield will have one more way of blocking our lashing blade and GWF will be problematic with intimidation but also with super fast runing which will get TR frustrated. They can basically run and will run as far as u can reach by eyes when they sniff you are coming with first strike and lashing bladeso good luck using it on them on begun of fight. While it comes to following progress of fight they will harras you with aoe and deadly dmg.
Summing up in each class cases in 1v1 fight we are most likely in disadvantage. Experience players have their ways of dealing with first strike lashing as i already mentioned in this post. I hope players who were going to use this build will reconsider it. If the playstyle in which this build which i personally call ,,one-chance lashing'' fits them.
From my tests combo of lashing blade and shadow of demise is deadly against unexpected players and in this case i think it could be succesfull.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Congratulations to reaching a conclusion the rest of us have moved past and beyond two weeks ago. It's nice to see that you're finally in the mood for testing more stuff.
... but kidding aside, that's about the exact reason the current TR trend in the preview has basically simmered down to perma/Sab builds, rather than Executors.
Although the damage potential is much lower, Sab builds relying on GC as main component of attack has a nice balance of [strong hits + overall survivability + ease of combat management]. It's a nice hit-&-run build with enough survivability and safety to contest within a node directly.
I'd recommend either of two variations, the first being the "Brollax/Nanner" type, with standard ITC/Dazing/SS/GC/optional at-will, or "Vexation" type, ITC/ImpactShot/SS/GC/optional at-will. From what I've seen when those players use it, there are some subtle differences. Seems the former is a bit more high-risk-high-reward type, whereas the latter is the very careful, cautious, and "survivalist" type. If you bring your power up a little higher, I'd guess you'd probably be reaching the 'comfort zone'.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
full dps TR will never be viable until they reduce lashing cooldown to 12 sec and make first strike resets every 8 sec regardless the combat status.
i would rather leave the game than play executioner as it's now.
Yes. You can't use dummies for testing resistance because dummies have none.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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he beat both brollax and nanners in 1v1 with sab
no need to teach him
While it was probably a good move to tease with upcoming changes early in the week to alleviate various concerns, it did kill a lot of motivation to go try things without those features implemented.
There was relatively little new feedback this week, so I don't think it was just me. Same went for the DC thread.
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*shrugs* Then good for him! You notice the number of his whines have significantly subsided since after (I'm guessing) he actually TRIED the stuff a little bit more?
I'm also noticing the same with you, as well. *winks*
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
1) Saboteur feat tree is grossly overpowered via stealth. It gives players the tools to solo HE's while eating a cheese sandwich and watching reruns of Family Guy. Utilizing the capstone will ensure that stealth is constant if shadow strike and gloaming cut are used. I never popped the DC artifact once in IWD (and my INT was a whopping 13). While in a group setting, gloaming cut proved to me incredibly clunky and slow and in most cases, it was impractical. DPS is not as high as others have stated it might be for several reasons in a dungeon setting due to constant red aoe that we can't stand in. This required a switch-out from gloaming cut to cloud of steel, thus negating a lot stealth damage. Another point to make here is that party members considered this feat tree, the least desirable in a party setting due to the constant stealth and more perceived threat focused on them. All in all I found this an incredible boring and almost exploitive way to play.
2) The scoundrel feat tree is more fun to play as it gave me more utility to a party. Soloing was a different experience, however this was also relatively negative as I felt without the stealth I had much less survivability in IWD and I had to rely more on ranged attacks as well and quick dazes to be effective. While in a party setting, I ran a couple of dungeons and really loved the skullcracker capstone. With that said, it didn't hold the utility I thought it would as the CW would already stun/freeze things, GF would prone things, etc... There was already lots of that happening and clearing the dungeon probably would have been much more effective with a more dps-focused route. i can see the utility of this capstone with certain party compositions though and I think it could be very effective on lots of mobs. On boss fights I found the dazes to be useless and something the party could live without.
3) The executioner feat tree was much more dps-oriented, however it was exceptionally difficult to stay alive without using healing potions. Running through IWD with these feats proved to be MUCH more difficult and challenging. Stealth seemed an afterthought and the TR's lack of tankiness readily shone through. Within a party atmosphere it dealt relatively strong dps, but again had very very poor survivability.
In order to assess party utility I needed to objectively cycle through my characters as well as talk to other party members I run with and see what it brought to the table. The truth wasn't too good even after preview tests. TR is better dps-wise yes, however, the ability of ranged classes to decimate mobs and even single targets quickly, really puts us TR's in an awkward position. Honestly, our dps isn't and will not be on par with control wizards, scourge warlocks or even good hunter rangers. This leaves us fighting for position with the great weapon fighter most of the time and probably the new version of the devoted cleric coming out (even in Mod 5).
With that said, the order in which I would have to chose the build would revolve around:
- Survivability (most important)
- DPS (this is all we bring to the table now)
- Utility (bonus perks such as dazes and slows)
With Master Infiltrator, this would leave me no choice, but to go with a Saboteur/Executioner or Saboteur/Scoundrel hybrid, therefore having to utilize gloaming cut for stealth replenishing and probably removing the much-improved and hard-hitting duelist flurry from my bar altogether.
I am going to now pursue the Whisperknife TR builds and see if there is anything decent to play.
Also Cloud of Steel shine with sabo Whisperknife build (not dealing huge spike, but somehow manageable damage with piercing feat).
TRs are getting only the feats reset, I think. You'd probably have to buy a respec token for a full reset.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
And not all the feats reset I think just the feat trees of sabo/exe/scoundrel, and not feats that remain the same. I still have those 5 pts in shocking from exe on preview after the reset
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
────────────────────────────
i tried executioner its HAMSTER,scoundrell not so good
and last i tried sab and has potential but
i personaly dont like the changes because its 100% different then now
but its to soon to tell after 30min coz i never played with such setup
still i hate that gc im not sure i even want to play with that atwill
I'm sure you'll do fine. You only need some more time to adapt.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Expect a full feat tree respec. I think that was fixed in the latest patch to preview, I know it was for me.
Running this build in a CN party was not very effective at all I found. Damage was extremely low and I was regulated to using dazes and stuns like smoke to help the party rather than actual strong dps. This is not what I had expected as it is currently no different of a role than my current TR and to a man, the party preferred the master infiltrator style of TR due to the increase in dps as opposed to the whiskperknife build.
I had expected modifications to the TR to include:
1) Stronger DPS, offset by more robust defense outside of stealth to make us viable melee options in dungeons. We still can't stand in red, like other melee classes can and continue dpsing.
2) Feat trees to hold much more variety than just 2 ways of playing effectively in party and solo settings
Again, Whiskperknife plays extremely fun. You need to think quickly to be effective and be ready for a prolonged fight. Unfortunately in groups, this isn't that viable unless you aren't concerned in anyway with dps contribution (and this is what our class is supposed to primarily do apparently). If they buffed the damage output from this type of build, I could see a lot of players gravitating towards it though.
So far, I can't find a happy medium with any build and will unfortunately have to go with the one that will be of the most use to the party. If anyone has any build suggestions, that doesn't involve gloaming cut or complete ranged spam with intermittent dazes... please feel free to post ideas as I am open to anything at this point.
These are just my opinions for my play-style and what I've noticed in group settings and with talking to others. I hope that the developers read these posts and take these suggestions under advisement from a long-time TR player.
...the ranged VP/Dazing/SS + CoS/DHS WK build is for PvP, not for PvE. In PvE purposes even I use something else, the most promising I find being the AoE TR build.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thats nice Kweassa... but I'm not following your build, although I see its pretty similar! I do my own stuff xD. Smoke/PotB (hate blitz) is good for aoe with this build as well... but still... doesn't solve the primary issue in pve which is primarily being dps in dungeons... not an ancillary controller. That's what my TR is now... I don't want that for it any longer.
As far as the rotations go... that rotation can absolutely be used in pve soloing effectively... and in lots of cases will have to be since we are so squishy. Its a fun rotation and deft strike can make it even more fun... AOE encounters such as smoke bomb (I run this a lot) and Path of the Blade (hate this) have their uses (I find blitz to be absolutely worthless with my playstyle), but I don't always want to run with them.
Even if I slot lashing blade (with dazing strike), my dps output is not what it will be with the other 2 feat trees. Basically the build is fun to play in pve, but has limited utility (constant dazes) as most dungeons are already easy-mode with the power creep in this game. People want to clear dungeons quickly and effectively and that usually means burning things quickly. All parties I've ever been in go something like this... CW/SW immediately clears 1/2 HP from elite mobs with dailies... CW controls... melee wipes up... and this usually involves a GF and GWF that can stand in red circles while we are regulated to darting in and out completely limiting our damage to single shots and nothing really sustained. Dazes aren't really needed in many situations, nor do they help with ranged melee being so powerful now. This is an unfortunate truth to pve now.
The WK scoundrel is more or less a pvp build (and probably very effective too), but I don't see much utility for it in pve. Just one man's opinion is all. I'm sure I'll be proven wrong in the upcoming module though. Again... would be nice to have an at-will with WK that does NOT deplete stealth... this would make this much much more attractive for pve and I may swing my favor in it's direction for my next Mod 5 build... but as of now, I'm still left with no satisfactory option with how I'd like to play. Right now I've
Kweassa, I tried your pvp build with a friend the other day in IWD and its was very impressive xD. He had a difficult time with the stuns and in some ways found it harder to play against this type of TR rather than a MI sabo/scoundrel TR. I'm pretty sure you are going to find quite a bit of success with this build in pvp especially with the changes to smoke bomb xD.
DF weapon is worthless now... Its either gloaming cut and cloud of steel, or disheartening strike and cloud of steel...
Well, I have a different philosophy for the TR in terms of PvE. Designating a role as "DPS" IMO is severely misleading in that DPS is simply a byproduct of the certain amount of functions a class handles. People have been basing their assumptions and standards for way too long upon the greatly warped/distorted party formation comprised of solely GWF/CWs and the "steamroll" mentality they represent, that eventually everyone just blindly follows the its code.
However, I'd like to urge the players to try and remember where the real "standard" should be placed upon. Obviously when the game was first made, any developer would have found it ideal to have the classic "rainbow party" comprised of 5 different classes with each differing roles. It is that 'starting' point where we should look and find the role of the TR is.
In that apect, when a party is formed it has three key functions which it cannot do without; namely, "the Heals, the Deals, and the Meatshields". Otherwise also known as the "Holy Trinity" of tanks, healers, and damage dealers. The problem is, that makes up only 3 of the 5 party slots. What's the rest 2 slots do?
IMO, those 2 slots are the "Wildcards", or "Liberos", if you're familiar with football terms. These are the slots reserved for "support" classes which are considered to be versatile in the fact that they perform a wide range of fucntions according to the situation. When there is need for extra DPS, these guys come into action to add in more damage. When there is need for more control, then these guys come and assist in that role. One of the situations which you most often meet in tough PvE content is overwhelming number of mobs -- in which case usually the party's main tank grabs hold the aggro of the strongest one, while the other members are tasked with the job of "culling the weak" and making short work so the party can concentrate on the main threat. And in these situations, these guys serve the role as either secondary tanks or relief givers to the party's more vulnerable main DPS/heal roles.
And it is in this aspect, the problem with NW PvE lies in not with the classes, but the content of the game. It's so damned easy that there aren't any variety of threatening situations where support roles can prove their worth.
It is, IMO, precisely the reason why any class that feels neglected in PvE, absolutely MUST demand the developers a more difficult and challenging game content is given to them -- not the easy-peasy dungeon milk-runs we have where any PuG formation with any number of classes can easily take on. When the game's easy, you don't need support.
It is precisely in this aspect, IMO, where the role of the TR lies. The tougher breed of fighters have their own roles as main tanks. CWs usually take on the role of DPS, and healers are healers. These guys cannot forego their own duties to do something else, otherwise the efficiency of the party suffers. That's where classes like HRs or TRs should come in, where they are given freedom to do a wide range of actions according to the situation. The tragedy of NW PvE lies in that the game's so simple and easy that there aren't many situations to act accordingly in the first place -- and from that point begins the hardships of being a TR.
After mod5, I believe the next task for us TRs, is to start lobbying for "ultra-hard mode" dungeons with significantly higher loot, with much stronger mobs, more difficult layout, and content designed specifically to neuter the DPS-oriented milk-run parties, and makes it absolutely necessary to form a good, balanced party.
...
For starters, my next task will be probably focused on requesting for "damage-type resistant mobs" to be introduced into the game. Mobs that are more resistant to physical damage than to arcane/magic, and vice versa... as well as more lethal and cunning mob powers and spells, such as (for example) anti-magic shell, or mass-dispel effects that disrupt DC or CW self buffs and etc..
It is my belief, that the content we already have, starting from level 1 to lv60 Sharandar, Dreadring, IWD and ToD challenges... this is more than enough to cater for any newbies or casual players. Anything that comes AFTER Tiamat, IMO, I would urge the developers to change their way of thinking, and assume the players that engage in that content would already be veterans by then. And then, a dungeon/zone content with difficulty high enough to be fitting of those veteran players and higher GS scores (based on 18k~20k) is only fitting, where lv65 elite mobs are considered the standard, armed to the teeth with anti-magic type of resistances, dispel powers, CCs, etc etc..
...
I remember when I used to play City of Heroes. Players actually worked out a combat plan in those times, where the tanks would charge in and grab aggro, buff/debuffers would then start doing their work directly after, followed by the DPS. In this precision combat environment, a stupid gameplay, a loss of aggro, etc etc.. would mean party wipes... and that's what we need. Dungeons tough enough to cause party wipes even from the start.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I couldn't agree with you more on the above statement.
Kweassa, those ideas you have for a party are great. They really are. Although I respect everyone's opinion, that's not the reality we are in and unless you have a designated party you run with all the time willing to role-play, then there is going to be disappointment. This game is about one thing and one thing only really in pve and that's damage. This can be proven further with respect to devoted clerics getting buffs in Mod 5 to improve.... their damage (and I'll bet you dollars to donuts, they will probably do comparable damage to rogues in dungeons).
The problem with pegging the trickster rogue in a utility role (I wouldn't even peg it as a support class) is that it does a lot of things pretty well, but does nothing really really well. Hence, we have a jack-of-all-trades scenario in a game that in no way, shape or form rewards that type of game play. So if you want to play a utility class in NW, you are often going to be left in the dark. I'm not happy with a utility role for that reason.
You also mentioned that higher GS players (i.e. 18k to 20k) would benefit from these types of dungeons and I disagree with bringing GS into ANY discussion regarding game play as one is not mutually exclusive to the other. Also GS is not indicative of a veteran player in any way. I'm a veteran player and have a 16k SW when I easily have the equipment to be much much higher. Why? Because it allocates stats better and hits my softcaps making me a stronger player than most 19k SW's. Now, GS may be very relevant in pvp, however not so much at all in pve.
I do fully agree with you that the developers need to look at ways to engage different aspects of parties, and punish parties who don't properly plan out methods of attack and strategies, but that's another discussion and one that should absolutely have its own constructive thread.
They've had 5 modules now to get it right and still the pve TR will be slotted into an afterthought role.