Actually it's a great idea, for PVE. I posted in the very beginning of the feedback thread that auto-crit would be a great dividing factor for PVP/PVE. Or a global 15-30% damage debuff for the TR class in PVP. Either of these and stealth drain in pvp, but not PVE would balance rogue in those two areas. Which would allow some considerable improvement to the rogue class, which it still needs.
As much as some people would argue otherwise, perma-stealth isn't an issue in PVE, and it's not dead in preview anyway. So at-will stealth drain doesn't need to be there, it just cramps a lot of people's play-styles and makes a lot of at-wills much weaker or stronger depending on their stealth drain factor.
With stealth drain in pvp and gloaming included in this, and auto-crit removed, then the rogue class can get all those juicy stat buffs, deflection bonuses, encounter and daily improvements, move speed increases....... without being a complete monster in pvp. Right now we have the TR class still unforgivably weak in PVE, and verging on the edge of OP in PVP. Something has to give, something HAS to be different for the rogue class in PVP and PVE. They did it for GWF prones, why can't they do it for the TR class, it would make balancing the class so much easier.
I keep hearing a lot of people chanting that as if it's a verse from a religious text or something..."TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... "...
Out of curiosity, just what basis, or evidence, do you have when you say "TR PvE weak and needs more improvements... "?
At least for PvP, multiple combat testings between cross-class combat can be filmed to see how it generally fares to give some idea of how it performs in what kind of conditions... but PvE-wise, what did the "TR PvE is weak... stealth-depletion must go" people come up with as actual, tangible evidence that what they are saying is true? What do the "TR PvE weak, stealth-depletion must go" crowd have to prove that it's the TR that's weak, and not themselves (through factors like lack of skill, lack of understanding, etc etc..)?
Hitting stationary dummies and parsing logs of damage? So, theorized DPS numbers under non-realistic combat conditions, having nothing to do with actual combat flow, is the only defining measure of performance? If that is so, just what numbers are considered "weak", "acceptable", and "strong"?
Seriously, people who keep wanting to get rid of stealth-depletion keep basing their arguments off "PvE TRs are weak", except I've never seen anything tangible provided -- just a lot of "general feel", or "preference" in the, "I don't like it -- ergo -- weak" sort of attitude.
I've already provided the fact that it's plenty easy and possible to do well even in the harder 3~5 man Heroic Encounters as a TR alone, but since every "PvE TRs are weak" folk seem to be ignoring it, I'm assuming you are using a different base-line/standard in measuring how a TR performs in PvE. I'd like to know what it is.
I'm sincerely interested -- what proof is there, that "TR PvE is weak"?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
kweassa, I've been playing a TR since I started playing 1 year ago, and I have now a HR and a GWF, even though they are much less equipped than my TR I have a MUCH easier time fighting with them than with my TR. So it IS weaker in PVE. I'm sure I know how to play with my TR better than the other 2 classes I've played much less with.
On live it is quite evident from the fact that nobody is ever looking for a TR for PvE and often people will gripe/kick/leave a group if there is a TR in it during your typical PuG. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the TR is weak but it certainly means that there are many other classes superior to anything that the TR could provide. One might assume a lack of skill for the TR who is dead last in damage, but the one who is half the CW/SW/GWF/HR is likely as skilled or more skilled than those above them. Dungeon design, class design, whatever it is what it is.
my oppressor fire wizard nukes everything despite being at 10k gs (and this pales in comparison to geared wizards). my cleric just gives me the feeling of smoother/quicker runs by spamming hallowed ground and high prophet. my templock doesn't care about party composition since nobody is dying until i die (unless they are being silly).
compared to that, rogues r just.....there. we can help but we don't really stand out in pve. we r more suited for pvp.
I'm sincerely interested -- what proof is there, that "TR PvE is weak"?
To which i would reply, what proof do you have that TR is not weak in PVE? IWD encounters?
So what, I'm not worried about completing ANY content soloing. I can complete any of the small or medium HE's, and many of the larger ones as well, live or on preview.
PVE in NW is extremely easy, it's a very simple matter of cycling pulls with damage, control, and survivability boosts-such as stealth, unstoppable, HR dmg immunity frames, GF block.
When you talk about appropriate performance it needs to be measured against other classes. Where am I getting TR is weak? When I compare the performance of my TR to the other classes I play in the same situations, my vastly better geared TR most definitely under-performs.
In any case soloing content does not equate to performance in a group, and thus a dungeon. Buffs, debuffs, the ability to hold aggro and tank in place, the ability to heal others, ect...... These things all come into focus in group play, and TR has NONE of these utility functions.
Right now TR has small scale aoe burst...... and that's it, and that's weak.
kweassa, I've been playing a TR since I started playing 1 year ago, and I have now a HR and a GWF, even though they are much less equipped than my TR I have a MUCH easier time fighting with them than with my TR. So it IS weaker in PVE. I'm sure I know how to play with my TR better than the other 2 classes I've played much less with.
Ease of use? IMO that doesn't really establish a "base-line" we can use to determine whether it is performing well or not. Especially when both are the game's most controversial classes. One's basically a tank with some amount of DPS, the other's armed to the teeth with all sorts of protective features and an easy-peasy DoT mechanics.
If you think about it, you can fix whatever you want to fix with the TRs and ultimately, in relative terms it's still going to be easier to clear solo PvE content with a GWF or a HR, wouldn't you agree?
On live it is quite evident from the fact that nobody is ever looking for a TR for PvE and often people will gripe/kick/leave a group if there is a TR in it during your typical PuG. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the TR is weak but it certainly means that there are many other classes superior to anything that the TR could provide.
Superior to anything that the TR could provide UNDER CURRENT DUNGEON/CONTENT DESIGN.
Take any other MMOG in the market, dumb down the dungeon content so its a steamroll like in NW, and I guarantee you every class that resmebles a single-target DPS or support role, is going to be neglected exactly as much as TR in NW. Conversely, I can also guarantee you the moment the dungeon/content in NW starts raising the level of difficulty, balanced parties will become a neccessity.
One might assume a lack of skill for the TR who is dead last in damage, but the one who is half the CW/SW/GWF/HR is likely as skilled or more skilled than those above them. Dungeon design, class design, whatever it is what it is.
Right. Precisely the reason I am asking for an objective base line, a tangible proof in how you guys measure why, or how the TR is weak.
So far I've only got rei's "relative feel of difficulty than playing other classes", which I'm not sure can qualify as tangible evidence in the first place.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Right. Precisely the reason I am asking for an objective base line, a tangible proof in how you guys measure why, or how the TR is weak.
So far I've only got rei's "relative feel of difficulty than playing other classes", which I'm not sure can qualify as tangible evidence in the first place.
It depends on the dungeon. In eLoL it's not rare for me to out dps everyone including CWs and GWFs, I think people know TRs do good in this dungeon too because sometimes I get invited right away after dropping my class and gs in LFG which never has happened before. Bottom of paingiver every time though in things like multi PK runs. I'm not sure how the PVE TR will be in mod 5
I would say eLoL is certainly the most favorable dungeon for a TR. They have a good chance there and they actually can effectively contribute to the group, but their advantage isn't much and even when all things fall perfectly an SW or CW can still best them in total damage as well as contribute more in other ways too. The SW/CW can also best the TR in single target damage too but I have never found consistent enough data to point to any single reason why that is (it seems one time its creeping death, one time its TT, one time its assailant, etc) and so I attribute it to the random and thus the only slightly potential advantage a TR might have for single target damage.
I mentioned solo PVE because we all already know that TR usually doesn't do too well in group PVE on live. That's largely because of dungeon design, so I took that part out.
Sadly it's all I have as evidence, my own experience. It should count for something though. When playing my HR or GWF I finish IWD encounters in less time than I do with my TR and usually with more health (although I just now switched to draconic armor and I think I end up with more HP than before.)
Superior to anything that the TR could provide UNDER CURRENT DUNGEON/CONTENT DESIGN.
While this seems the problem is mainly in the design, and not the class, when you factor in there is really only one dungeon that fits more with a TR design and all of the rest of the game doesn't it points more to a class design problem in that the class is designed to do something that doesn't exist in the game. Since it is inconceivable they would update the entire rest of the game the solution has to lie within the redesign of the TR.
Also consider content that fits towards the TR, such as HE dragon fights and eLoL. In these the TR does well but has no guarantee to place top and it is not unusual to fall behind an SW/CW/HR and sometimes even a GWF at the only game the TR plays -- single target damage.
When it comes down to it the TR is obviously weak (compared to other classes) in the PvE that this game presents and that type of PvE dominates 99% of the game.
While this seems the problem is mainly in the design, and not the class, when you factor in there is really only one dungeon that fits more with a TR design and all of the rest of the game doesn't it points more to a class design problem in that the class is designed to do something that doesn't exist in the game. Since it is inconceivable they would update the entire rest of the game the solution has to lie within the redesign of the TR.
Strange way to think, IMO. If there's a design flaw in the dungeon/PvE content that fails to give certain classes distinct roles, then it's only a matter of adding in more dungeons from the current existing set of content to be enjoyed. I've mentioned it in other posts, but it is simply a matter of adding in certain mob-types or AI algorythms.
Remember - it was once inconceivable that the TR would totally change. I've always mentioned the TR would need a total redesigining, but never expected it to happen so soon when mod5 was announced. Compared to how the different feat paths only provided certain limited amount of difference, currently all three feat paths are totally different in how they are played out. They can effectively be considered 3 different sub-classes of the TR, sharing only the basic class format.
Also consider content that fits towards the TR, such as HE dragon fights and eLoL. In these the TR does well but has no guarantee to place top and it is not unusual to fall behind an SW/CW/HR and sometimes even a GWF at the only game the TR plays -- single target damage.
Is that it? The only reason you want the TRs to be stronger, the only standard of whether a character is "weak" in PvE or not... it's the flimsy, stupid Paingiver or Executioner standings? That's like saying the Leaderboards is an accurate representation of PvP skill -- which every real PvP player knows it is not.
The numbers in the end-game standings shows only a tiny little piece of how some class performed, and even that in an abstract form. It doesn't tell you anything about how your TR really did. It doesn't show you the times you've saved someone from a tough spot, or the moments you've adequately reacted to avert disaster. How many targets you've held down for how long, or how many fallen comrades you were able to revive by using your stealthy trait.
When it comes down to it the TR is obviously weak (compared to other classes) in the PvE that this game presents and that type of PvE dominates 99% of the game.
The only thing obvious to me is a flawed dungeon/content design.
I've also mentioned this in other posts, but as a rule of thumb certain class/types always push ahead over others. In any functioning game it is always normal for the stationary, ranged DPS to have generally much higher DPS numbers than melees.
This is completely normal, because any MMOG with a reasonable level of difficulty has the melees working as meat shields, dividing their time and focus so some amount of time is spent attacking, and while the rest of the time is spent in self-defense. Compared to that, as long as the tank-role is grabbing aggro properly, ranged classes are placed at a relatively safe distance, and are free to divert all attention to cycling powers (this state, is often called "free-dealing").
If a melee is doing around the same, or even more damage than the ranged classes despite moving, chasing, defending, etc.. then there's something wrong with that picture. If the TRs, despite all their movement and repositioning, some times supporting others, other times staying paird with the tank, etc etc.. still do more damage than CW/SWs, then that's actually broken -- not the other way around.
If this kind of PvE dominates 99% of the game, then its pretty clear what our next action should be, is it not?
We ask for a differently designed PvE.
I mean, as I've proven time again, any solo-content or 3~5 man field PvE content (Heroic Encounters), currently the TR has no problems with. The cases which people perceive the TR to be weak, is usually instanced content -- dungeons, skirmishes, etc.. Since the content usually lacks diversity, and much too easy overall, you don't need any complex or clever functions the TR might be able to provide.
The easier the content, the easier to steamroll stuff. And the most efficient steamroll is always the AoE steamroll. Hence, TRs, and just as much, GFs and HRs, are ALL neglected. All of these three neglected classes have quite capable support roles. TR for a wide variety of actions, HRs with area-suppression, GF with team protection... but the game's damned too easy, and nobody needs support. Hence, TRs, HRs, GFs, all perceived as 'useless'.
Why try to turn back time and go back to the retro days, when there's a better possible future to come?
(ps) Ok. So far, the 'evidence' I get is:
(1) 'more difficult to play as TR than HR/GWF'
(2) 'end-game stat screen and low standings'
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think that gloaming cut should drain stealth, it's broken in it's current state. Overall I like new TR, but perma stealth must be removed.
I do agree a lot. Permastealth is just cheap, and in my honest opinion should be removed along with all the rest of cheap stuff.
TRs being able to engage/ disengage at will, get out of combat for free and stay in stealth forever. No thanks.
Need more survivability? Fine, give more deflection, more dodges. But once a TR enters combat, his stealth time must be limited. There must be at least a 10 seconds window during which the TR must survive through dodge and timing, out of stealth or ITC, surviving through skill and their own defensive stats like HP, deflection and defense, and "tricks". Raise these stats and give them 4 dodges if needed.
But permastealth should be replaced by something that actually requires more skill. Like dodging, placing decoys, dazes and also defensive stats like deflect and mitigation. Then give them the high burst damage they deserve.
Also, when a TR is in combat, they should not be able to freely roll away into stealth and go hide off-point just to get back whenever they want. There must be a time window during which TRs can't just re-enter permastealth and engage-disengage forever.
You start from stealth, you strike hard, then you must survive through the above stuff (dodges, deflect, defense, decoys, dazes and tricks), then you can re-enter stealth. You should be forced to balance DPS encounters and "defensive" encounters like dazes, stuns, slows and decoys. If you go full DPS, you're more "open" to damage after your first attack.
I was very disappointed when i saw that the "rework" which was supposed to give proper DPS and get rid of permastealth, actually made permastealth even easier to achieve. Fighting TRs on preview feels pretty much the same except for the fact that instead of hitting from stealth with low damage they now rush in-DPS-roll out into permastealth and repeat.
Which is still, pretty much: i can do whatever i want, but you must be quick and hope lag does'nt mess up your timing, cause you'll have 1 tiny millisecond to see me and catch me.
On live it's already like this: you manage to "find" the TR, you hit him/ rotate him, he rolls away into stealth off-node and hides, recover, then come back. If you leave the node cause he does not show up, he gets back harrassing it. You get back on node. The TR gets off-node and hides. And repeat.
On preview would be the same but with more burst damage from TRs.
Permastealth should go, stealth must be 1 tool among the others, not making the TR a invisible ghost who can engage-disengage at will with no consequences. TRs must learn to also play "actively" and avoid damage with timing, instead of relying on immunity ITC and "i go stealth and just try not to be found" (which is not that hard when you have high movement speed and you get freely in and out of nodes).
Also, another solution: out of combat, it's permastealth. When TR enters combat, the detection range is doubled making it harder to just slip away and hide.
"Also, another solution: out of combat, it's permastealth. When TR enters combat, the detection range is doubled making it harder to just slip away and hide."
out of combat your unstoppable gives you 50% DR. In combat 10% DR. I like this solution.
And about cheap stuffs....intimidation is still hitting for 35k
perma it will always be possible. if not as a MI, it will be as Wk.
they are not giving tools to survive outside of it? i m not even trying to change playstyle.
Strange way to think, IMO. If there's a design flaw in the dungeon/PvE content that fails to give certain classes distinct roles, then it's only a matter of adding in more dungeons from the current existing set of content to be enjoyed. I've mentioned it in other posts, but it is simply a matter of adding in certain mob-types or AI algorythms.
Not at all, one must stay open to the obvious and not close minded. In fact it is the more logical way to think if you look at the game and not the class. If 99% of the game is designed in a particular way and the class is designed so that it meshes only with 1% of the game it seems strange to me for someone to focus in on that 99% and think the solution involves altering it instead of the class. Now a different game design would of course make this situation different, but that could be said of anything and they could make a class that stood around and emoted dance moves and make it perform well with a different game design.
Is that it? The only reason you want the TRs to be stronger, the only standard of whether a character is "weak" in PvE or not... it's the flimsy, stupid Paingiver or Executioner standings? That's like saying the Leaderboards is an accurate representation of PvP skill -- which every real PvP player knows it is not.
The numbers in the end-game standings shows only a tiny little piece of how some class performed, and even that in an abstract form. It doesn't tell you anything about how your TR really did. It doesn't show you the times you've saved someone from a tough spot, or the moments you've adequately reacted to avert disaster. How many targets you've held down for how long, or how many fallen comrades you were able to revive by using your stealthy trait.
Please don't be so simple. You already indicated you had difficulty understanding me with your "seems strange to me" comment and thus you must be aware that there will be other things you will not comprehend as well. I suggest that when such difficulties arise that you ask for clarification instead of jumping to a conclusion.
It should be quite obvious that I was highlighting what is often said, that the TR is single target damage. It is generally emphasized in a way that suggest the TR is far superior to other classes in single target damage and that is the niche of the TR. My claims propose that this niche is nowhere near as strong as is assumed and could well be that the TR is only on par with the other classes in single target damage. If the TR only does as well as other classes in single target damage and with all the frailties and shortcomings of the class then it would certainly be presenting itself in just the cases as I claim above and it should raise concerns for any seeking balance.
If a melee is doing around the same, or even more damage than the ranged classes despite moving, chasing, defending, etc.. then there's something wrong with that picture. If the TRs, despite all their movement and repositioning, some times supporting others, other times staying paird with the tank, etc etc.. still do more damage than CW/SWs, then that's actually broken -- not the other way around.
Now this seems strange to me. In my opinion, damage is damage regardless of the method of delivery. If one class has to be more active, more reactive, more cautious and more precise but yet their sole purpose is to deliver damage then I would expect them to deliver just as much as a class that can stand safely at a stationary position a good distance away and press a few buttons ever so often and if that other class can do more than simply deliver damage then I would expect the pure(ish) striker to even be superior in these numbers. If the easier to play class is actually superior at what it does and what the more difficult to play class does then that is what is broken and it is impossible to think it the other way around unless you are conditioned to think that way and thus close minded and biased in your overall approach.
If this kind of PvE dominates 99% of the game, then its pretty clear what our next action should be, is it not?
We ask for a differently designed PvE.
I mean, as I've proven time again, any solo-content or 3~5 man field PvE content (Heroic Encounters), currently the TR has no problems with. The cases which people perceive the TR to be weak, is usually instanced content -- dungeons, skirmishes, etc.. Since the content usually lacks diversity, and much too easy overall, you don't need any complex or clever functions the TR might be able to provide.
The easier the content, the easier to steamroll stuff. And the most efficient steamroll is always the AoE steamroll. Hence, TRs, and just as much, GFs and HRs, are ALL neglected. All of these three neglected classes have quite capable support roles. TR for a wide variety of actions, HRs with area-suppression, GF with team protection... but the game's damned too easy, and nobody needs support. Hence, TRs, HRs, GFs, all perceived as 'useless'.
Why try to turn back time and go back to the retro days, when there's a better possible future to come?
(ps) Ok. So far, the 'evidence' I get is:
(1) 'more difficult to play as TR than HR/GWF'
(2) 'end-game stat screen and low standings'
Actually the evidence exists entirely in how the class is perceived by the players and a simple scan of how often a class is requested in LFG will quickly reveal this. When a group is looking for multiple strikers and they list all strikers except a TR it is very revealing in that there is something wrong with the TR class. You can hold to your prejudice that all TR players are poor or to your conditioned notion that the other strikers should be better than a TR at dealing damage or whatever you wish to. You can cling to some dream that things will be different if we keep pushing ahead with the current design approach. You can do whatever you wish, honestly, but you cannot honestly and sanely hold to a position that "all is well" when the single best method of showing the state of a class (LFG) is in direct conflict with this.
"Also, another solution: out of combat, it's permastealth. When TR enters combat, the detection range is doubled making it harder to just slip away and hide."
out of combat your unstoppable gives you 50% DR. In combat 10% DR. I like this solution.
And about cheap stuffs....intimidation is still hitting for 35k
perma it will always be possible. if not as a MI, it will be as Wk.
they are not giving tools to survive outside of it? i m not even trying to change playstyle.
First of all: intimidation uberdamage is something i'm against too. It got nerfed to 35%. If there are still issues, then you're free to report them. I don't play intimidation sentinel BTW. I'm destroyer on live and testing instigator on preview, far from being OP and both builds i use require skills to play effectively.
Second: there's a basic difference, between permastealth and unstoppable. GWF goes unstoppable taking damage. And a lot. 40-50% HP for a full bar of 8 seconds of 50% DR. Permastealth allows TRs to avoid being hit unless they decide to, in open ground. Also, a GWF going into combat and losing, unless specced perma runner can't get away and dies. Often even if perma runner, against CWs/ SWs if you go cap enemy node and lose, you die. TR can enter combat, get down to 10% HP, roll away into stealth and puff, disappear, go recover and come back on node. And repeat.
Wanna trade with current unstoppable? I'm all for it please. Take our 50% DR and CC resist for 8 seconds after losing 40-50% HP, and give us permastealth.
As i said, you can have more defelct and more dodges if you want, no problem. Dodging takes skill, hiding in permastealth requires very little skill. You can have infinite dodges for all i care in place of permstealth. At least dodges can be anticipated with experience and skill and it's a fair fight. Me taking a TR down to 10% HP to then have him roll out of node roll again and hide in a corner or somewhere safe to come back later, is not. Considering on the other hand, if i get down to 10% HP i'll most likely die few seconds after.
Permastealth was ok when TRs were dealing cheap damage and you got more time to chase them and play mouse and cat. Made up for long fights, requiring timing from both parts and skills. If TRs will be back to being a high burst class, then there's no need for permastealth anymore. There must be limitations, a cost, when you enter combat and no cheap way to escape death for free.
A TR should move in stealth out of combat, then choose a target, rush to it, burst DPS, then evade and trick the enemy to survive but taking risks. And if back into stealth, it should not be a free disengage ticket.
If what it takes are more tools more deflect more dodges, something proactive, it's fine. I prefer a skill fight of dodges than the usual "i'm hiding somewhere, can you find me guessing where i am, before i attack you again?" and "hoops, you got me. Ok i'll go for a while to not get killed. Just wait for me to recover then i'll come back to retry".
First of all: intimidation uberdamage is something i'm against too. It got nerfed to 35%. If there are still issues, then you're free to report them. I don't play intimidation sentinel BTW. I'm destroyer on live and testing instigator on preview, far from being OP and both builds i use require skills to play effectively.
Second: there's a basic difference, between permastealth and unstoppable. GWF goes unstoppable taking damage. And a lot. 40-50% HP for a full bar of 8 seconds of 50% DR. Permastealth allows TRs to avoid being hit unless they decide to, in open ground. Also, a GWF going into combat and losing, unless specced perma runner can't get away and dies. Often even if perma runner, against CWs/ SWs if you go cap enemy node and lose, you die. TR can enter combat, get down to 10% HP, roll away into stealth and puff, disappear, go recover and come back on node. And repeat.
Wanna trade with current unstoppable? I'm all for it please. Take our 50% DR and CC resist for 8 seconds after losing 40-50% HP, and give us permastealth.
As i said, you can have more defelct and more dodges if you want, no problem. Dodging takes skill, hiding in permastealth requires very little skill. You can have infinite dodges for all i care in place of permstealth. At least dodges can be anticipated with experience and skill and it's a fair fight. Me taking a TR down to 10% HP to then have him roll out of node roll again and hide in a corner or somewhere safe to come back later, is not. Considering on the other hand, if i get down to 10% HP i'll most likely die few seconds after.
Permastealth was ok when TRs were dealing cheap damage and you got more time to chase them and play mouse and cat. Made up for long fights, requiring timing from both parts and skills. If TRs will be back to being a high burst class, then there's no need for permastealth anymore. There must be limitations, a cost, when you enter combat and no cheap way to escape death for free.
A TR should move in stealth out of combat, then choose a target, rush to it, burst DPS, then evade and trick the enemy to survive but taking risks. And if back into stealth, it should not be a free disengage ticket.
If what it takes are more tools more deflect more dodges, something proactive, it's fine. I prefer a skill fight of dodges than the usual "i'm hiding somewhere, can you find me guessing where i am, before i attack you again?" and "hoops, you got me. Ok i'll go for a while to not get killed. Just wait for me to recover then i'll come back to retry".
First of all: intimidation uberdamage is something i'm against too. It got nerfed to 35%. If there are still issues, then you're free to report them. I don't play intimidation sentinel BTW. I'm destroyer on live and testing instigator on preview, far from being OP and both builds i use require skills to play effectively.
Second: there's a basic difference, between permastealth and unstoppable. GWF goes unstoppable taking damage. And a lot. 40-50% HP for a full bar of 8 seconds of 50% DR. Permastealth allows TRs to avoid being hit unless they decide to, in open ground. Also, a GWF going into combat and losing, unless specced perma runner can't get away and dies. Often even if perma runner, against CWs/ SWs if you go cap enemy node and lose, you die. TR can enter combat, get down to 10% HP, roll away into stealth and puff, disappear, go recover and come back on node. And repeat.
Wanna trade with current unstoppable? I'm all for it please. Take our 50% DR and CC resist for 8 seconds after losing 40-50% HP, and give us permastealth.
As i said, you can have more defelct and more dodges if you want, no problem. Dodging takes skill, hiding in permastealth requires very little skill. You can have infinite dodges for all i care in place of permstealth. At least dodges can be anticipated with experience and skill and it's a fair fight. Me taking a TR down to 10% HP to then have him roll out of node roll again and hide in a corner or somewhere safe to come back later, is not. Considering on the other hand, if i get down to 10% HP i'll most likely die few seconds after.
Permastealth was ok when TRs were dealing cheap damage and you got more time to chase them and play mouse and cat. Made up for long fights, requiring timing from both parts and skills. If TRs will be back to being a high burst class, then there's no need for permastealth anymore. There must be limitations, a cost, when you enter combat and no cheap way to escape death for free.
A TR should move in stealth out of combat, then choose a target, rush to it, burst DPS, then evade and trick the enemy to survive but taking risks. And if back into stealth, it should not be a free disengage ticket.
If what it takes are more tools more deflect more dodges, something proactive, it's fine. I prefer a skill fight of dodges than the usual "i'm hiding somewhere, can you find me guessing where i am, before i attack you again?" and "hoops, you got me. Ok i'll go for a while to not get killed. Just wait for me to recover then i'll come back to retry".
The only things this video shows is that a tr need to use 80 duelist flurry and 12 dailies to kill a gwf. While skip at 1.00 and 5.50 you dont.
The day they will give us your damages, 50 per cent deflect 4000 defense and 60k hp and allow to refill stealth while dealing and rdceiving damage i will agree with you. How would have won without the tr (skilled its not easy dude) being cheap?
Another thing i would like to add: just because some people very few one dont use intimidation does not make any difference. Is there! Is a thing. Is like saying hr are pvp underpowered cuz archery...no does not work like that
I've also mentioned this in other posts, but as a rule of thumb certain class/types always push ahead over others. In any functioning game it is always normal for the stationary, ranged DPS to have generally much higher DPS numbers than melees.
Nope. It's normal for them to deliver more actual damage over the course of an encounter or dungeon, but not necessarily more DPS per ability use. Melee DPS classes in other games typically have higher DPS abilities to compensate for the fact that they spend less time actually DPSing since they have to gap-close, defend, dodge, etc.
If a melee is doing around the same, or even more damage than the ranged classes despite moving, chasing, defending, etc.. then there's something wrong with that picture. If the TRs, despite all their movement and repositioning, some times supporting others, other times staying paird with the tank, etc etc.. still do more damage than CW/SWs, then that's actually broken -- not the other way around.
See above. Although here you may be referring to total damage on Paingiver, in which case you might have a point if NWO wasn't completely focussed on being a DPS race. As it is, a DPS class that can't consistently achieve a high placing on Paingiver simply will not get dungeon invites. That worngheaded and shortsighted, but unfortunately just the way it is.
The only things this video shows is that a tr need to use 80 duelist flurry and 12 dailies to kill a gwf. While skip at 1.00 and 5.50 you dont.
The day they will give us your damages, 50 per cent deflect 4000 defense and 60k hp and allow to refill stealth while dealing and rdceiving damage i will agree with you. How would have won without the tr (skilled its not easy dude) being cheap?
Another thing i would like to add: just because some people very few one dont use intimidation does not make any difference. Is there! Is a thing. Is like saying hr are pvp underpowered cuz archery...no does not work like that
It also shows that the TR is 90% of the time not taking damage, pretty much, thanks to ITC and permastealth. 50% deflect is not even in that GWF build. With PBI and halfling+ high dex can go up to 35%, max 40%. 4000 defense is way above hard cap.
60k HP< 40-45k if the 60k HP-4000def guy is taking damage 100% of the time, while you're not taking damage 90% of the time and, even when spotted, you can just slip away for free and recover.
What you see in the video is that if a TR just build to not die in 1 rotation, he can pretty much go on forever.
And that is a video with old TR.
New TR has higher damage on preview and still permastealth.
We're talking about TR here. I already posted against unresistable damage, intimidation and whatever cheap mechanic the devs introduced in this game. And permastealth is just one of these mechanics.
When they talked about "rework" it was supposed to be more DPS and proactive survivability, and no more permastealth.
From what i could test so far, what changed is instead that DPS got a boost and TR now needs to burst-retreat into stealth instead of just spamming at-wills from stealth.
While it's more risky on one side, it still allows for a endless node harrassing where a TR can stealth-roll-roll-go hide, recover and come back as soon as the enemy leaves the node.
So far, it's the only class i've seen, able to pretty much engage-disengage with close to no risks when specced/ used well.
TRs must have same DPS than GWF or more, it's a melee DPS class. But once they engage and attack, then they must survive through dodges, dazes, deflect and balance of HP/ survivability and DPS.
I'd say increase deflect and give more dodges or a mechanic that allows TRs to regenerate stamina faster much like CWs/ SWs.
Basic gameplay of a TR should be a mix of let's say ITC, decoys and dazes/ slows, stealth for defense, and high burst DPS.
Not permastealth.
This is my opinion. And it's not like i can't fight permas. But i can do that only cause i PvPed a lot and can usually guess their movements, anticipate and corner them by pure skill, out-thinking them and outplaying them, and pray that latency does not mess up my timing too much.
While a perma pretty much does his rotation and must only try not to be predictable like a nab while evading in stealth.
I obviously do not play a TR, my alts are a HR and a DC. But i think TRs rely too much on permastealth. May be they were forced into it, but now it seems they are quite attached at permastealth as the one and only defensive mechanic.
Nope. It's normal for them to deliver more actual damage over the course of an encounter or dungeon, but not necessarily more DPS per ability use. Melee DPS classes in other games typically have higher DPS abilities to compensate for the fact that they spend less time actually DPSing since they have to gap-close, defend, dodge, etc.
I know. But that's not what some players are angry about. They're angry about the fact that they are 3rd, 4th, or 5th place when the game finishes... hence, based on that fact alone the TR is too weak, they conclude.
But turn what you say the other way around, then it also means that whatever dafuq the end-game stat board says, it may very well be possible the TR might actually be doing damage on par, or even higher, than others upon given moments... but due to circumstances they fall behind in the long run.
If anything, there is much too little data to support anything, IMO.
See above. Although here you may be referring to total damage on Paingiver, in which case you might have a point if NWO wasn't completely focussed on being a DPS race. As it is, a DPS class that can't consistently achieve a high placing on Paingiver simply will not get dungeon invites. That worngheaded and shortsighted, but unfortunately just the way it is.
Exactly.
Hence, my conclusions that we should be asking to change the fact that NW dungeons are of simple design -- a "DPS race". Not artifically/forcibly compensate certain classes so they can achieve a certain level of bunch of numbers when the game ends. ESPECIALLY, when those numbers don't have anything to do with skill at all, nor having high numbers will ever get some classes (GF/DC/TR) a place in the PvE game.
...
If I'm a party leader, and fully understanding NW dungeons are easy steamroller stuff, I am given a choice as to who to choose.
One's the game's best TR with best rotations with huge DPS potential -- against a single target, the other's a pretty normal CW guy, not the best player, but maybe average~decent. Who am I going to choose, if I want to finish things quickly and get more loot to farm? CW. Everytime. It's not about the DPS numbers alone. It's about who can deal out those DPS more efficiently and to finish the game faster. In that aspect the current GWF-CW regime in party formation beats everything else. Whether a TR has superior damage or not, isn't even relevant. What's relevant is bringing in a CW makes the game flow easier.
So obviously, in order for classes like the TR (...or HR, or GF) to be considered "efficient", there are two options:
(1) Risk a massive spike/imbalance in relative performance,by giving those classes unnatural amounts of damage so they help in clearing out mobs even faster than when a GWF/CW is in a team.
(2) Change this Carebear policy for dungeon content, and start putting in difficulty elements that can give the neglected classes a place in dungeoneering parties.
Most people ask for (1). I say that's a wrong approach.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The problem is that existing PVE dungeons will probably never be changed, the problem with them has been reported a long time ago, and it hasn't been changed.
With new dungeons things are different, but sadly, many people still find the regular T2 sets to be more useful, so the best equipment is found in those old dungeons.
But turn what you say the other way around, then it also means that whatever dafuq the end-game stat board says, it may very well be possible the TR might actually be doing damage on par, or even higher, than others upon given moments... but due to circumstances they fall behind in the long run.
Hence, my conclusions that we should be asking to change the fact that NW dungeons are of simple design -- a "DPS race". Not artifically/forcibly compensate certain classes so they can achieve a certain level of bunch of numbers when the game ends. ESPECIALLY, when those numbers don't have anything to do with skill at all, nor having high numbers will ever get some classes (GF/DC/TR) a place in the PvE game.
So obviously, in order for classes like the TR (...or HR, or GF) to be considered "efficient", there are two options:
(1) Risk a massive spike/imbalance in relative performance,by giving those classes unnatural amounts of damage so they help in clearing out mobs even faster than when a GWF/CW is in a team.
(2) Change this Carebear policy for dungeon content, and start putting in difficulty elements that can give the neglected classes a place in dungeoneering parties.
Most people ask for (1). I say that's a wrong approach.
Sigh, your argument is that it's poor dungeon design, which is missing the point because of the following. The TR class is a "anything I can do, someone else can do better" class. Dungeon design does not help with this unless it is specifically designed around things that ONLY a rogue can do. Like stealthing through 1000 elite mobs to unlock a door so that his party can proceed. Or deadly traps.
While that would be nice, I don't see why the TR class should be weak in combat, which it is. When you talk about sustained single target damage, other classes can do it as good or better. When you talk about sustained AOE, other classes can do it better. You say to look beyond the paingiver stat. But the TR class is a melee striker with absolutely NO utility functions besides pain. Scoundrel may have gotten some CC boosts, but they sacrifice DPS for it, and you would be playing second fiddle to CW in basically everything. The only area I see TR as potentially having the edge on other classes is AOE burst on 5 mobs or less in a five second window. In any other metric for performance TR falls flat. Other classes can do the same or better damage with utility functions to boot.
If you look at Open beta TR the class was pretty balanced performance wise in PVE. It wasn't common to double stack TRs and triple stack never happened, but a TR in a dungeon run was welcomed. The class had a role and a niche that it excelled in, and that was single target dps. TRs did around 3-4 times MORE damage that any other class single target. At the cost of all the weaknesses it still has. This was not by the way tied to stealth, the OB TR was much more useable out of stealth than the preview rogue in PVE group content. I don't remember anyone saying the class was OP in PVE, until people started soloing dungeons. The beauty of the OB TR was that the extremely high single target DPS, couldn't really be used in PVP. People were not complaining about 80k+ shocking executions, and 60k+ lashing blades with no debuffs. They were complaining about being one shotted by pvorp lashings and unresistable SE that did around 20k. Which I remember hitting those 50k+ figures in PVE with my 10k GS TR with no wep enchant. Then the class got gutted, not only the powers that were issues in PVP, but the ones that were mainly PVE and had not yet become issues in PVP.
Say what you will about "steamroll dungeon designs" and theorize if you want to on if the open beta TR would perform beside other classes the same way today. In OB, if you were a TR or a CW or a GF, the one who came out on top of the paingiver chart was determined by your gear and skill as a player, rather than your class, and that to me seemed pretty balanced.
Now in Preview we still have no role and excel in nothing over other classes, while still having many weakness and disadvantages. I don't see how dungeon design helps us.
in a game were it takes few months to fix even the simplest bug u say whole dungeon design needs to change just coz off one class.
dungeons needs to be remaked from scratch just to be tr friendly
and this has to be done with each and every dungeon, skirmish in the game coz trs are not viable in a single one according to lfg channel.
everything else just wont do it lol.
fo sho
While that would be nice, I don't see why the TR class should be weak in combat, which it is.
According to what? To your 'feel'?
If you look at Open beta TR the class was pretty balanced performance wise in PVE...TRs did around 3-4 times MORE damage that any other class single target
LoL. NvM. You're saying the massive OP damage HAMSTER in beta.. was "balanced".
Now I see where you and the rest of the complainers are coming from.
Now in Preview we still have no role and excel in nothing over other classes, while still having many weakness and disadvantages. I don't see how dungeon design helps us.
I'd actually not have thought PvErs can be this twisted, selfish, absurd levels of blindness where ONLY the TR is the 'striker', where ONLY the TR boasts 3~4 times more damage than others, where ONLY the TRs would have to be top contendors... etc etc..
I don't blame you for not 'seeing' how dungeon design can help you. The only aspect of PvE your types -- all the whiners and complainers -- seem to be able to compute, is by understanding it as an abstract numbers contest. Basically the same nub mindset as those who think leaderboard rankings are measure of skill.
You simply fail to understand other classes doing higher damage is simply a result of the environment. If you can't see how a different dungeon design might help you, go read my Beholder write-up.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
LoL. NvM. You're saying the massive OP damage HAMSTER in beta.. was "balanced".
I'd actually not have thought PvErs can be this twisted, selfish, absurd levels of blindness where ONLY the TR is the 'striker', where ONLY the TR boasts 3~4 times more damage than others, where ONLY the TRs would have to be top contendors... etc etc..
You simply fail to understand other classes doing higher damage is simply a result of the environment. If you can't see how a different dungeon design might help you, go read my Beholder write-up.
God forbid the striker class with no debuffs, buffs, low HP, low defense, no healing, very limited target caps, and sub-par CC only if specced for it, actually deals damage. That's the only thing I'm getting from you. You totally took my comments out of context. I said 3-4 times SINGLE target damage. Other classes did better AOE, and still do. Actual performance was - TRs were valued in dungeons, but not stacked. Damage dealt and kills were roughly equal between TR and other classes. TR players had fun and performed well in dungeons, and not just bis-specced players with perfect rotations.
I think EVERYONE would like to see more creative and challenging content. But that is not a appropriate argument for class balance under EXISTING conditions.
It's like saying rogues get 100% deflection when flurrying. Ya, that would be sweet, if it were true, but it's not. Get your head out of the clouds man.
New mod5, the off-hand artifact weapon and its tenacious concealment related power, is going to give most TRs what they want -- IF they slot tencon.
No stealth depletion upon attack received. You can't force out a TR with damage any more. Also, stealth refills without depleting. It just stops momentarily when damage received.
So in a strange way, we sort of got what we wished for with stealth changes.
Comments
I keep hearing a lot of people chanting that as if it's a verse from a religious text or something..."TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... TR PvE weak... "...
Out of curiosity, just what basis, or evidence, do you have when you say "TR PvE weak and needs more improvements... "?
At least for PvP, multiple combat testings between cross-class combat can be filmed to see how it generally fares to give some idea of how it performs in what kind of conditions... but PvE-wise, what did the "TR PvE is weak... stealth-depletion must go" people come up with as actual, tangible evidence that what they are saying is true? What do the "TR PvE weak, stealth-depletion must go" crowd have to prove that it's the TR that's weak, and not themselves (through factors like lack of skill, lack of understanding, etc etc..)?
Hitting stationary dummies and parsing logs of damage? So, theorized DPS numbers under non-realistic combat conditions, having nothing to do with actual combat flow, is the only defining measure of performance? If that is so, just what numbers are considered "weak", "acceptable", and "strong"?
Seriously, people who keep wanting to get rid of stealth-depletion keep basing their arguments off "PvE TRs are weak", except I've never seen anything tangible provided -- just a lot of "general feel", or "preference" in the, "I don't like it -- ergo -- weak" sort of attitude.
I've already provided the fact that it's plenty easy and possible to do well even in the harder 3~5 man Heroic Encounters as a TR alone, but since every "PvE TRs are weak" folk seem to be ignoring it, I'm assuming you are using a different base-line/standard in measuring how a TR performs in PvE. I'd like to know what it is.
I'm sincerely interested -- what proof is there, that "TR PvE is weak"?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
On live it is quite evident from the fact that nobody is ever looking for a TR for PvE and often people will gripe/kick/leave a group if there is a TR in it during your typical PuG. Now that doesn't necessarily mean the TR is weak but it certainly means that there are many other classes superior to anything that the TR could provide. One might assume a lack of skill for the TR who is dead last in damage, but the one who is half the CW/SW/GWF/HR is likely as skilled or more skilled than those above them. Dungeon design, class design, whatever it is what it is.
my oppressor fire wizard nukes everything despite being at 10k gs (and this pales in comparison to geared wizards). my cleric just gives me the feeling of smoother/quicker runs by spamming hallowed ground and high prophet. my templock doesn't care about party composition since nobody is dying until i die (unless they are being silly).
compared to that, rogues r just.....there. we can help but we don't really stand out in pve. we r more suited for pvp.
To which i would reply, what proof do you have that TR is not weak in PVE? IWD encounters?
So what, I'm not worried about completing ANY content soloing. I can complete any of the small or medium HE's, and many of the larger ones as well, live or on preview.
PVE in NW is extremely easy, it's a very simple matter of cycling pulls with damage, control, and survivability boosts-such as stealth, unstoppable, HR dmg immunity frames, GF block.
When you talk about appropriate performance it needs to be measured against other classes. Where am I getting TR is weak? When I compare the performance of my TR to the other classes I play in the same situations, my vastly better geared TR most definitely under-performs.
In any case soloing content does not equate to performance in a group, and thus a dungeon. Buffs, debuffs, the ability to hold aggro and tank in place, the ability to heal others, ect...... These things all come into focus in group play, and TR has NONE of these utility functions.
Right now TR has small scale aoe burst...... and that's it, and that's weak.
Ease of use? IMO that doesn't really establish a "base-line" we can use to determine whether it is performing well or not. Especially when both are the game's most controversial classes. One's basically a tank with some amount of DPS, the other's armed to the teeth with all sorts of protective features and an easy-peasy DoT mechanics.
If you think about it, you can fix whatever you want to fix with the TRs and ultimately, in relative terms it's still going to be easier to clear solo PvE content with a GWF or a HR, wouldn't you agree?
Superior to anything that the TR could provide UNDER CURRENT DUNGEON/CONTENT DESIGN.
Take any other MMOG in the market, dumb down the dungeon content so its a steamroll like in NW, and I guarantee you every class that resmebles a single-target DPS or support role, is going to be neglected exactly as much as TR in NW. Conversely, I can also guarantee you the moment the dungeon/content in NW starts raising the level of difficulty, balanced parties will become a neccessity.
Right. Precisely the reason I am asking for an objective base line, a tangible proof in how you guys measure why, or how the TR is weak.
So far I've only got rei's "relative feel of difficulty than playing other classes", which I'm not sure can qualify as tangible evidence in the first place.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
It depends on the dungeon. In eLoL it's not rare for me to out dps everyone including CWs and GWFs, I think people know TRs do good in this dungeon too because sometimes I get invited right away after dropping my class and gs in LFG which never has happened before. Bottom of paingiver every time though in things like multi PK runs. I'm not sure how the PVE TR will be in mod 5
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
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Here are some interesting videos that I made for you guys, Master Infiltrator Scoundrel VS WhisperKnife Scoundrel 1v1.
We were both at the same GS
MI (My foe) -> 16.5K, Perfect Vorpal, Perfect Soulforged, Legendary Waters
WK (myself) -> 16.5K, Normal Vorpal, Lesser Soulforged, Epic Blood Crystal.
It was very interesting and fun, enjoy !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ60dZPT-ww
Vengeace's Pursuit VS Impossible to Catch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k3ORJIgM1I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3r-bA9RA2I&feature=youtu.be
Sadly it's all I have as evidence, my own experience. It should count for something though. When playing my HR or GWF I finish IWD encounters in less time than I do with my TR and usually with more health (although I just now switched to draconic armor and I think I end up with more HP than before.)
While this seems the problem is mainly in the design, and not the class, when you factor in there is really only one dungeon that fits more with a TR design and all of the rest of the game doesn't it points more to a class design problem in that the class is designed to do something that doesn't exist in the game. Since it is inconceivable they would update the entire rest of the game the solution has to lie within the redesign of the TR.
Also consider content that fits towards the TR, such as HE dragon fights and eLoL. In these the TR does well but has no guarantee to place top and it is not unusual to fall behind an SW/CW/HR and sometimes even a GWF at the only game the TR plays -- single target damage.
When it comes down to it the TR is obviously weak (compared to other classes) in the PvE that this game presents and that type of PvE dominates 99% of the game.
Strange way to think, IMO. If there's a design flaw in the dungeon/PvE content that fails to give certain classes distinct roles, then it's only a matter of adding in more dungeons from the current existing set of content to be enjoyed. I've mentioned it in other posts, but it is simply a matter of adding in certain mob-types or AI algorythms.
Remember - it was once inconceivable that the TR would totally change. I've always mentioned the TR would need a total redesigining, but never expected it to happen so soon when mod5 was announced. Compared to how the different feat paths only provided certain limited amount of difference, currently all three feat paths are totally different in how they are played out. They can effectively be considered 3 different sub-classes of the TR, sharing only the basic class format.
Is that it? The only reason you want the TRs to be stronger, the only standard of whether a character is "weak" in PvE or not... it's the flimsy, stupid Paingiver or Executioner standings? That's like saying the Leaderboards is an accurate representation of PvP skill -- which every real PvP player knows it is not.
The numbers in the end-game standings shows only a tiny little piece of how some class performed, and even that in an abstract form. It doesn't tell you anything about how your TR really did. It doesn't show you the times you've saved someone from a tough spot, or the moments you've adequately reacted to avert disaster. How many targets you've held down for how long, or how many fallen comrades you were able to revive by using your stealthy trait.
The only thing obvious to me is a flawed dungeon/content design.
I've also mentioned this in other posts, but as a rule of thumb certain class/types always push ahead over others. In any functioning game it is always normal for the stationary, ranged DPS to have generally much higher DPS numbers than melees.
This is completely normal, because any MMOG with a reasonable level of difficulty has the melees working as meat shields, dividing their time and focus so some amount of time is spent attacking, and while the rest of the time is spent in self-defense. Compared to that, as long as the tank-role is grabbing aggro properly, ranged classes are placed at a relatively safe distance, and are free to divert all attention to cycling powers (this state, is often called "free-dealing").
If a melee is doing around the same, or even more damage than the ranged classes despite moving, chasing, defending, etc.. then there's something wrong with that picture. If the TRs, despite all their movement and repositioning, some times supporting others, other times staying paird with the tank, etc etc.. still do more damage than CW/SWs, then that's actually broken -- not the other way around.
If this kind of PvE dominates 99% of the game, then its pretty clear what our next action should be, is it not?
We ask for a differently designed PvE.
I mean, as I've proven time again, any solo-content or 3~5 man field PvE content (Heroic Encounters), currently the TR has no problems with. The cases which people perceive the TR to be weak, is usually instanced content -- dungeons, skirmishes, etc.. Since the content usually lacks diversity, and much too easy overall, you don't need any complex or clever functions the TR might be able to provide.
The easier the content, the easier to steamroll stuff. And the most efficient steamroll is always the AoE steamroll. Hence, TRs, and just as much, GFs and HRs, are ALL neglected. All of these three neglected classes have quite capable support roles. TR for a wide variety of actions, HRs with area-suppression, GF with team protection... but the game's damned too easy, and nobody needs support. Hence, TRs, HRs, GFs, all perceived as 'useless'.
Why try to turn back time and go back to the retro days, when there's a better possible future to come?
(ps) Ok. So far, the 'evidence' I get is:
(1) 'more difficult to play as TR than HR/GWF'
(2) 'end-game stat screen and low standings'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I do agree a lot. Permastealth is just cheap, and in my honest opinion should be removed along with all the rest of cheap stuff.
TRs being able to engage/ disengage at will, get out of combat for free and stay in stealth forever. No thanks.
Need more survivability? Fine, give more deflection, more dodges. But once a TR enters combat, his stealth time must be limited. There must be at least a 10 seconds window during which the TR must survive through dodge and timing, out of stealth or ITC, surviving through skill and their own defensive stats like HP, deflection and defense, and "tricks". Raise these stats and give them 4 dodges if needed.
But permastealth should be replaced by something that actually requires more skill. Like dodging, placing decoys, dazes and also defensive stats like deflect and mitigation. Then give them the high burst damage they deserve.
Also, when a TR is in combat, they should not be able to freely roll away into stealth and go hide off-point just to get back whenever they want. There must be a time window during which TRs can't just re-enter permastealth and engage-disengage forever.
You start from stealth, you strike hard, then you must survive through the above stuff (dodges, deflect, defense, decoys, dazes and tricks), then you can re-enter stealth. You should be forced to balance DPS encounters and "defensive" encounters like dazes, stuns, slows and decoys. If you go full DPS, you're more "open" to damage after your first attack.
I was very disappointed when i saw that the "rework" which was supposed to give proper DPS and get rid of permastealth, actually made permastealth even easier to achieve. Fighting TRs on preview feels pretty much the same except for the fact that instead of hitting from stealth with low damage they now rush in-DPS-roll out into permastealth and repeat.
Which is still, pretty much: i can do whatever i want, but you must be quick and hope lag does'nt mess up your timing, cause you'll have 1 tiny millisecond to see me and catch me.
On live it's already like this: you manage to "find" the TR, you hit him/ rotate him, he rolls away into stealth off-node and hides, recover, then come back. If you leave the node cause he does not show up, he gets back harrassing it. You get back on node. The TR gets off-node and hides. And repeat.
On preview would be the same but with more burst damage from TRs.
Permastealth should go, stealth must be 1 tool among the others, not making the TR a invisible ghost who can engage-disengage at will with no consequences. TRs must learn to also play "actively" and avoid damage with timing, instead of relying on immunity ITC and "i go stealth and just try not to be found" (which is not that hard when you have high movement speed and you get freely in and out of nodes).
Also, another solution: out of combat, it's permastealth. When TR enters combat, the detection range is doubled making it harder to just slip away and hide.
out of combat your unstoppable gives you 50% DR. In combat 10% DR. I like this solution.
And about cheap stuffs....intimidation is still hitting for 35k
perma it will always be possible. if not as a MI, it will be as Wk.
they are not giving tools to survive outside of it? i m not even trying to change playstyle.
Not at all, one must stay open to the obvious and not close minded. In fact it is the more logical way to think if you look at the game and not the class. If 99% of the game is designed in a particular way and the class is designed so that it meshes only with 1% of the game it seems strange to me for someone to focus in on that 99% and think the solution involves altering it instead of the class. Now a different game design would of course make this situation different, but that could be said of anything and they could make a class that stood around and emoted dance moves and make it perform well with a different game design.
Please don't be so simple. You already indicated you had difficulty understanding me with your "seems strange to me" comment and thus you must be aware that there will be other things you will not comprehend as well. I suggest that when such difficulties arise that you ask for clarification instead of jumping to a conclusion.
It should be quite obvious that I was highlighting what is often said, that the TR is single target damage. It is generally emphasized in a way that suggest the TR is far superior to other classes in single target damage and that is the niche of the TR. My claims propose that this niche is nowhere near as strong as is assumed and could well be that the TR is only on par with the other classes in single target damage. If the TR only does as well as other classes in single target damage and with all the frailties and shortcomings of the class then it would certainly be presenting itself in just the cases as I claim above and it should raise concerns for any seeking balance.
Now this seems strange to me. In my opinion, damage is damage regardless of the method of delivery. If one class has to be more active, more reactive, more cautious and more precise but yet their sole purpose is to deliver damage then I would expect them to deliver just as much as a class that can stand safely at a stationary position a good distance away and press a few buttons ever so often and if that other class can do more than simply deliver damage then I would expect the pure(ish) striker to even be superior in these numbers. If the easier to play class is actually superior at what it does and what the more difficult to play class does then that is what is broken and it is impossible to think it the other way around unless you are conditioned to think that way and thus close minded and biased in your overall approach.
Actually the evidence exists entirely in how the class is perceived by the players and a simple scan of how often a class is requested in LFG will quickly reveal this. When a group is looking for multiple strikers and they list all strikers except a TR it is very revealing in that there is something wrong with the TR class. You can hold to your prejudice that all TR players are poor or to your conditioned notion that the other strikers should be better than a TR at dealing damage or whatever you wish to. You can cling to some dream that things will be different if we keep pushing ahead with the current design approach. You can do whatever you wish, honestly, but you cannot honestly and sanely hold to a position that "all is well" when the single best method of showing the state of a class (LFG) is in direct conflict with this.
First of all: intimidation uberdamage is something i'm against too. It got nerfed to 35%. If there are still issues, then you're free to report them. I don't play intimidation sentinel BTW. I'm destroyer on live and testing instigator on preview, far from being OP and both builds i use require skills to play effectively.
Second: there's a basic difference, between permastealth and unstoppable. GWF goes unstoppable taking damage. And a lot. 40-50% HP for a full bar of 8 seconds of 50% DR. Permastealth allows TRs to avoid being hit unless they decide to, in open ground. Also, a GWF going into combat and losing, unless specced perma runner can't get away and dies. Often even if perma runner, against CWs/ SWs if you go cap enemy node and lose, you die. TR can enter combat, get down to 10% HP, roll away into stealth and puff, disappear, go recover and come back on node. And repeat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sLcbLeVGYI
Wanna trade with current unstoppable? I'm all for it please. Take our 50% DR and CC resist for 8 seconds after losing 40-50% HP, and give us permastealth.
As i said, you can have more defelct and more dodges if you want, no problem. Dodging takes skill, hiding in permastealth requires very little skill. You can have infinite dodges for all i care in place of permstealth. At least dodges can be anticipated with experience and skill and it's a fair fight. Me taking a TR down to 10% HP to then have him roll out of node roll again and hide in a corner or somewhere safe to come back later, is not. Considering on the other hand, if i get down to 10% HP i'll most likely die few seconds after.
Permastealth was ok when TRs were dealing cheap damage and you got more time to chase them and play mouse and cat. Made up for long fights, requiring timing from both parts and skills. If TRs will be back to being a high burst class, then there's no need for permastealth anymore. There must be limitations, a cost, when you enter combat and no cheap way to escape death for free.
A TR should move in stealth out of combat, then choose a target, rush to it, burst DPS, then evade and trick the enemy to survive but taking risks. And if back into stealth, it should not be a free disengage ticket.
If what it takes are more tools more deflect more dodges, something proactive, it's fine. I prefer a skill fight of dodges than the usual "i'm hiding somewhere, can you find me guessing where i am, before i attack you again?" and "hoops, you got me. Ok i'll go for a while to not get killed. Just wait for me to recover then i'll come back to retry".
would love to see permastealth GWF tbh.
The day they will give us your damages, 50 per cent deflect 4000 defense and 60k hp and allow to refill stealth while dealing and rdceiving damage i will agree with you. How would have won without the tr (skilled its not easy dude) being cheap?
Another thing i would like to add: just because some people very few one dont use intimidation does not make any difference. Is there! Is a thing. Is like saying hr are pvp underpowered cuz archery...no does not work like that
See above. Although here you may be referring to total damage on Paingiver, in which case you might have a point if NWO wasn't completely focussed on being a DPS race. As it is, a DPS class that can't consistently achieve a high placing on Paingiver simply will not get dungeon invites. That worngheaded and shortsighted, but unfortunately just the way it is.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It also shows that the TR is 90% of the time not taking damage, pretty much, thanks to ITC and permastealth. 50% deflect is not even in that GWF build. With PBI and halfling+ high dex can go up to 35%, max 40%. 4000 defense is way above hard cap.
60k HP< 40-45k if the 60k HP-4000def guy is taking damage 100% of the time, while you're not taking damage 90% of the time and, even when spotted, you can just slip away for free and recover.
What you see in the video is that if a TR just build to not die in 1 rotation, he can pretty much go on forever.
And that is a video with old TR.
New TR has higher damage on preview and still permastealth.
We're talking about TR here. I already posted against unresistable damage, intimidation and whatever cheap mechanic the devs introduced in this game. And permastealth is just one of these mechanics.
When they talked about "rework" it was supposed to be more DPS and proactive survivability, and no more permastealth.
From what i could test so far, what changed is instead that DPS got a boost and TR now needs to burst-retreat into stealth instead of just spamming at-wills from stealth.
While it's more risky on one side, it still allows for a endless node harrassing where a TR can stealth-roll-roll-go hide, recover and come back as soon as the enemy leaves the node.
So far, it's the only class i've seen, able to pretty much engage-disengage with close to no risks when specced/ used well.
TRs must have same DPS than GWF or more, it's a melee DPS class. But once they engage and attack, then they must survive through dodges, dazes, deflect and balance of HP/ survivability and DPS.
I'd say increase deflect and give more dodges or a mechanic that allows TRs to regenerate stamina faster much like CWs/ SWs.
Basic gameplay of a TR should be a mix of let's say ITC, decoys and dazes/ slows, stealth for defense, and high burst DPS.
Not permastealth.
This is my opinion. And it's not like i can't fight permas. But i can do that only cause i PvPed a lot and can usually guess their movements, anticipate and corner them by pure skill, out-thinking them and outplaying them, and pray that latency does not mess up my timing too much.
While a perma pretty much does his rotation and must only try not to be predictable like a nab while evading in stealth.
I obviously do not play a TR, my alts are a HR and a DC. But i think TRs rely too much on permastealth. May be they were forced into it, but now it seems they are quite attached at permastealth as the one and only defensive mechanic.
I know. But that's not what some players are angry about. They're angry about the fact that they are 3rd, 4th, or 5th place when the game finishes... hence, based on that fact alone the TR is too weak, they conclude.
But turn what you say the other way around, then it also means that whatever dafuq the end-game stat board says, it may very well be possible the TR might actually be doing damage on par, or even higher, than others upon given moments... but due to circumstances they fall behind in the long run.
If anything, there is much too little data to support anything, IMO.
Exactly.
Hence, my conclusions that we should be asking to change the fact that NW dungeons are of simple design -- a "DPS race". Not artifically/forcibly compensate certain classes so they can achieve a certain level of bunch of numbers when the game ends. ESPECIALLY, when those numbers don't have anything to do with skill at all, nor having high numbers will ever get some classes (GF/DC/TR) a place in the PvE game.
...
If I'm a party leader, and fully understanding NW dungeons are easy steamroller stuff, I am given a choice as to who to choose.
One's the game's best TR with best rotations with huge DPS potential -- against a single target, the other's a pretty normal CW guy, not the best player, but maybe average~decent. Who am I going to choose, if I want to finish things quickly and get more loot to farm? CW. Everytime. It's not about the DPS numbers alone. It's about who can deal out those DPS more efficiently and to finish the game faster. In that aspect the current GWF-CW regime in party formation beats everything else. Whether a TR has superior damage or not, isn't even relevant. What's relevant is bringing in a CW makes the game flow easier.
So obviously, in order for classes like the TR (...or HR, or GF) to be considered "efficient", there are two options:
(1) Risk a massive spike/imbalance in relative performance,by giving those classes unnatural amounts of damage so they help in clearing out mobs even faster than when a GWF/CW is in a team.
(2) Change this Carebear policy for dungeon content, and start putting in difficulty elements that can give the neglected classes a place in dungeoneering parties.
Most people ask for (1). I say that's a wrong approach.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
With new dungeons things are different, but sadly, many people still find the regular T2 sets to be more useful, so the best equipment is found in those old dungeons.
Sigh, your argument is that it's poor dungeon design, which is missing the point because of the following. The TR class is a "anything I can do, someone else can do better" class. Dungeon design does not help with this unless it is specifically designed around things that ONLY a rogue can do. Like stealthing through 1000 elite mobs to unlock a door so that his party can proceed. Or deadly traps.
While that would be nice, I don't see why the TR class should be weak in combat, which it is. When you talk about sustained single target damage, other classes can do it as good or better. When you talk about sustained AOE, other classes can do it better. You say to look beyond the paingiver stat. But the TR class is a melee striker with absolutely NO utility functions besides pain. Scoundrel may have gotten some CC boosts, but they sacrifice DPS for it, and you would be playing second fiddle to CW in basically everything. The only area I see TR as potentially having the edge on other classes is AOE burst on 5 mobs or less in a five second window. In any other metric for performance TR falls flat. Other classes can do the same or better damage with utility functions to boot.
If you look at Open beta TR the class was pretty balanced performance wise in PVE. It wasn't common to double stack TRs and triple stack never happened, but a TR in a dungeon run was welcomed. The class had a role and a niche that it excelled in, and that was single target dps. TRs did around 3-4 times MORE damage that any other class single target. At the cost of all the weaknesses it still has. This was not by the way tied to stealth, the OB TR was much more useable out of stealth than the preview rogue in PVE group content. I don't remember anyone saying the class was OP in PVE, until people started soloing dungeons. The beauty of the OB TR was that the extremely high single target DPS, couldn't really be used in PVP. People were not complaining about 80k+ shocking executions, and 60k+ lashing blades with no debuffs. They were complaining about being one shotted by pvorp lashings and unresistable SE that did around 20k. Which I remember hitting those 50k+ figures in PVE with my 10k GS TR with no wep enchant. Then the class got gutted, not only the powers that were issues in PVP, but the ones that were mainly PVE and had not yet become issues in PVP.
Say what you will about "steamroll dungeon designs" and theorize if you want to on if the open beta TR would perform beside other classes the same way today. In OB, if you were a TR or a CW or a GF, the one who came out on top of the paingiver chart was determined by your gear and skill as a player, rather than your class, and that to me seemed pretty balanced.
Now in Preview we still have no role and excel in nothing over other classes, while still having many weakness and disadvantages. I don't see how dungeon design helps us.
in a game were it takes few months to fix even the simplest bug u say whole dungeon design needs to change just coz off one class.
dungeons needs to be remaked from scratch just to be tr friendly
and this has to be done with each and every dungeon, skirmish in the game coz trs are not viable in a single one according to lfg channel.
everything else just wont do it lol.
fo sho
According to what? To your 'feel'?
LoL. NvM. You're saying the massive OP damage HAMSTER in beta.. was "balanced".
Now I see where you and the rest of the complainers are coming from.
I'd actually not have thought PvErs can be this twisted, selfish, absurd levels of blindness where ONLY the TR is the 'striker', where ONLY the TR boasts 3~4 times more damage than others, where ONLY the TRs would have to be top contendors... etc etc..
I don't blame you for not 'seeing' how dungeon design can help you. The only aspect of PvE your types -- all the whiners and complainers -- seem to be able to compute, is by understanding it as an abstract numbers contest. Basically the same nub mindset as those who think leaderboard rankings are measure of skill.
You simply fail to understand other classes doing higher damage is simply a result of the environment. If you can't see how a different dungeon design might help you, go read my Beholder write-up.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
sure we could solo dungeons
but that was fixed with kicking people .
only true solo dungeon class now is cw and no one is complaining
yeah selfish pve trs
cant get a group in more then a year and they a selfish looool i will die
God forbid the striker class with no debuffs, buffs, low HP, low defense, no healing, very limited target caps, and sub-par CC only if specced for it, actually deals damage. That's the only thing I'm getting from you. You totally took my comments out of context. I said 3-4 times SINGLE target damage. Other classes did better AOE, and still do. Actual performance was - TRs were valued in dungeons, but not stacked. Damage dealt and kills were roughly equal between TR and other classes. TR players had fun and performed well in dungeons, and not just bis-specced players with perfect rotations.
I think EVERYONE would like to see more creative and challenging content. But that is not a appropriate argument for class balance under EXISTING conditions.
It's like saying rogues get 100% deflection when flurrying. Ya, that would be sweet, if it were true, but it's not. Get your head out of the clouds man.
Really? hmm...
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF