I think a lot of TRs need to get a grip. As I have said before, my educated guess on release for Mod 5 is 1st or 2nd week of December. Probably early first week, that Monday or Tuesday and continue with scheduled maintenance that Thursday to iron out and issues with the large update.
We will experience more changes, especially over the next three weeks.
I have a hard time believing the Saboteurs ability to perma will be allowed to go live. That and I believe there is a strong possibility that the piercing damage and 100% crit will be reduced. Kind of cheap they can perma and totally ditch crit.
I inspect some of the top-end players who I know go right for the most exploitable builds and what am I seeing?
Maxed CON (HPS/regen of course)
Low STR (some take it some dont)
Low Dex (totally useless in Sab tree)
Higher CHA (deflection and CA)
There are variations but most obvious is Low Dex Max CON.
DEX simply is not needed for a perma running the Sab tree. Is that how Devs see a TR being played? I doubt it. So I can see changes coming there.
It's really hard to imagine what the devs were going for. It seems they were focused on PVP changes and only started working on PVE after massive amounts of feedback. It kinda seems tho that the goal was to make perma more accessible and effective for low GS and new players while destroying the current high skill perma builds. That's basically what the changes to Gloaming cut and stealth equate to. Also, when the first changes hit preview, Path of the blade would have been insanity for PVP, and was a very passive, low-skill means of inflicting damage via stealth, Gloaming cut was triple boosted and the addition of a 3rd stealth refill feat on par with shadow strike is now in place, you don't need high int and recovery to perma anymore. ITC, COS, and flurry were nerfed in their usability in PVP. The change to first strike also seemed very PVP oriented.
It was extremely nice to see feedback leading to some positive changes for rogues in PVE, including the boosts to whisperknife, scoundrel CC, dazing strike, and the latest at-will changes. I'm also glad some of the OP things were dialed back in PVP, such as first strike, path of the blade, and the latest- gloaming cut.
I don't really like auto-crit, on CW either, but I think the die is cast on that. It was an extremely easy way to boost all of a rogue's encounters and dailies without actually reworking every one.
I'm crossing my fingers that feed back will lead to the rework of shadowy opportunity, to me, unmitigated damage proccing from a feat doesn't belong in pvp.
One of the consideration of the rogue class in PVP is the sheer difference between a skilled, geared player, and a player new to the class. How do you make the class fun and viable for new players in a PVP experience without putting the salty dogs way over the top. The rogue class is one which skill rewards, IMO it is the class where skill as a factor is more important than any other class and one of the reasons I love the class so much. The best way to deal with that is COMPLETELY reworking stealth, encounters, and dailies, and addressing the hit detection range and activation times of melee abilities. I really don't think we are going to get that, though we have gotten changes that scratch the surface in that regard.
Howdy there, kweassa. I'm a GF main: my only level 60 characters are a GF and a SW (who's still in greens), so don't read this as coming from someone who has some vested interest in getting TRs buffed insanely.
You seem to suffer from some very serious delusions and logical fallacies. Allow me to attempt to dispel these; I would not normally butt into a conversation like this, but it's so glaring that I simply can't bear to see you go on without making comment.
You deny everyone else's subjective evidence because it's subjective. You say that you can't accept people's evidence because of their "Feelings" that things are easier on something that isn't TR.
Fine. But then you also deny objective evidence based on Paingiver and attacking dummies and number crunching etc. The reason you do this? Because you feel that dungeon design is to blame and should be what changes instead of TR.
Do note that this is a thread about commenting upon the balance of TRs as they exist at this moment, in this Beta build. This is not asking you to comment on dungeon design, or upon how TRs would work if they were in some other game. Neither of those have anything to do with the question at hand.
Also note that you deny all possible evidence counter to your argument, regardless of significance or corroboration. You suffer from a delusion that your evidence (whatever that may be, since you have presented none except for your subjective opinion that dungeons are lame) trumps everyone else's evidence regardless. If that's so, go make your own thread where people can ignore you for being a pompous stupid face. Don't write it somewhere where the decidedly stupid devs will search for the phrase "TRs are fine" and find that someone actually said that and therefore conclude that that is the state of things.
Secondly, I wish to address a specific point you argued about the DPS of ranged versus melee classes.
There's a theory in game design called Risk versus Reward. You've probably heard of it; it defines a non-inverse relationship between how hard and risky something is to do and how much payoff it does.
In this instance, the risk is How much Damage One Might Take and the reward is How much Damage One Might Deal. For two classes which are in the same class (striker) with the same DPS focus, it makes sense to compare their risk versus reward.
You claim that if melee characters deal more damage than ranged characters, then something in the game is broken. This, my friend, is completely counter to Risk versus Reward.
Let's look at this closer. The TR is in melee range. He can be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is likely to draw aggro due to his close proximity to his enemies. This is a High Risk situation; the TR is likely to take damage and possibly die while trying to deal his damage.
The HR/SW/CW is ranged. He can't be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is unlikely to draw aggro due to his distance from his enemies. Playing a HR/SW/CW is Low Risk.
Which class, then, should have higher reward? Should the TR, who must play very actively, dashing in and out of red zones, going in and out of stealth to avoid aggro, carefully conserving his few dashes to escape dire situations, deal less damage than the HR who has camped in the corner and taped down his left mouse button? You say that he SHOULD. The theory of Risk versus Reward says that he SHOULD NOT.
Personally, I (and almost every single other person in game design) ascribe to the theory of Risk versus Reward, not to whatever method you use to arrive at your decision. Players should be rewarded for playing skillfully and taking risks, and there's a lot more skill involved in a TR's playstyle than an HR's playstyle. Therefore, since they're both strikers, the TR should outdamage the HR.
I think a lot of TRs need to get a grip. As I have said before, my educated guess on release for Mod 5 is 1st or 2nd week of December. Probably early first week, that Monday or Tuesday and continue with scheduled maintenance that Thursday to iron out and issues with the large update.
We will experience more changes, especially over the next three weeks.
They announced yesterday mod 5 is going live November 18th.
The HR/SW/CW is ranged. He can't be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is unlikely to draw aggro due to his distance from his enemies. Playing a HR/SW/CW is Low Risk.
Aggro in Neverwinter is not greatly affected by distance. HR/CW/SW draw aggro all the time. For HR and SW, who have no control abilities to speak of, this can be quite risky.
Which class, then, should have higher reward? Should the TR, who must play very actively, dashing in and out of red zones, going in and out of stealth to avoid aggro, carefully conserving his few dashes to escape dire situations, deal less damage than the HR who has camped in the corner and taped down his left mouse button? You say that he SHOULD. The theory of Risk versus Reward says that he SHOULD NOT.
Personally, I (and almost every single other person in game design) ascribe to the theory of Risk versus Reward, not to whatever method you use to arrive at your decision. Players should be rewarded for playing skillfully and taking risks, and there's a lot more skill involved in a TR's playstyle than an HR's playstyle. Therefore, since they're both strikers, the TR should outdamage the HR.
You should probably roll an HR. You seem to have a rather odd idea of how ranged strikers play in NW.
I remember quite a few patches back where they either removed or reduced the distance aggro reduction.
There is still an advantage to distance in that you can see and react to an approaching enemy and are not subject to the 270 (seems more like 360) degree melee attacks. Many times on my TR I will be behind an enemy and get hit by a wide arc melee attack that is executed in the other direction and there is no time at all to react and stealth offers no advantage in such a situation. Also with the tendency for many players to move unnecessarily (some GF will even do this but GWF always seem to do this) and you will be unable to maintain the back of the mob and will be subject to wide arc attacks and often even have the mobs turned around onto you.
There is still an advantage to distance in that you can see and react to an approaching enemy and are not subject to the 270 (seems more like 360) degree melee attacks.
This was certainly true of content up to IWD. Since then the mobs now include a whole range with instant or near-instant gap closing ability, powerful ranged attacks, and ranged CC. The advantage of ranged classes has been significantly reduced or even neutralised in certain fights.
You seem to suffer from some very serious delusions and logical fallacies.
+1 on the risk v reward, why do ranged classes do more dps than melee?. This game currently rewards you for playing the easiest classes in which all you need to do is stand there and use your 3 encounters then daily then at will then repeat.
Ranged classes are boring and easy, its why i never play mages. But every game has an easymode class that is usually the mage or archer.
Howdy there, kweassa. I'm a GF main: my only level 60 characters are a GF and a SW (who's still in greens), so don't read this as coming from someone who has some vested interest in getting TRs buffed insanely.
You seem to suffer from some very serious delusions and logical fallacies. Allow me to attempt to dispel these; I would not normally butt into a conversation like this, but it's so glaring that I simply can't bear to see you go on without making comment.
You deny everyone else's subjective evidence because it's subjective. You say that you can't accept people's evidence because of their "Feelings" that things are easier on something that isn't TR.
Fine. But then you also deny objective evidence based on Paingiver and attacking dummies and number crunching etc. The reason you do this? Because you feel that dungeon design is to blame and should be what changes instead of TR.
Do note that this is a thread about commenting upon the balance of TRs as they exist at this moment, in this Beta build. This is not asking you to comment on dungeon design, or upon how TRs would work if they were in some other game. Neither of those have anything to do with the question at hand.
Also note that you deny all possible evidence counter to your argument, regardless of significance or corroboration. You suffer from a delusion that your evidence (whatever that may be, since you have presented none except for your subjective opinion that dungeons are lame) trumps everyone else's evidence regardless. If that's so, go make your own thread where people can ignore you for being a pompous stupid face. Don't write it somewhere where the decidedly stupid devs will search for the phrase "TRs are fine" and find that someone actually said that and therefore conclude that that is the state of things.
Secondly, I wish to address a specific point you argued about the DPS of ranged versus melee classes.
There's a theory in game design called Risk versus Reward. You've probably heard of it; it defines a non-inverse relationship between how hard and risky something is to do and how much payoff it does.
In this instance, the risk is How much Damage One Might Take and the reward is How much Damage One Might Deal. For two classes which are in the same class (striker) with the same DPS focus, it makes sense to compare their risk versus reward.
You claim that if melee characters deal more damage than ranged characters, then something in the game is broken. This, my friend, is completely counter to Risk versus Reward.
Let's look at this closer. The TR is in melee range. He can be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is likely to draw aggro due to his close proximity to his enemies. This is a High Risk situation; the TR is likely to take damage and possibly die while trying to deal his damage.
The HR/SW/CW is ranged. He can't be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is unlikely to draw aggro due to his distance from his enemies. Playing a HR/SW/CW is Low Risk.
Which class, then, should have higher reward? Should the TR, who must play very actively, dashing in and out of red zones, going in and out of stealth to avoid aggro, carefully conserving his few dashes to escape dire situations, deal less damage than the HR who has camped in the corner and taped down his left mouse button? You say that he SHOULD. The theory of Risk versus Reward says that he SHOULD NOT.
Personally, I (and almost every single other person in game design) ascribe to the theory of Risk versus Reward, not to whatever method you use to arrive at your decision. Players should be rewarded for playing skillfully and taking risks, and there's a lot more skill involved in a TR's playstyle than an HR's playstyle. Therefore, since they're both strikers, the TR should outdamage the HR.
You won't treat this person that u answered to. It's not treated he went into madness and delusions too much.
Tairev-TR(All kind of killing tools) Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion) Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
As for the notion of HRs vs TRs in dungeons, HRs probably run the larger risks; bad HRs can be far more disruptive to a dungeon run than a bad TR generally is.
Agreed, particularly a bad trapper or archer. Bloody fool ends up pulling aggro and dying 20 times before the 2nd boss.
And in regards to TRs, they have a mixture of both melee and ranged attacks to interchange as appropriate to the situation, besides having some of the best mechanics to escape from damage in general. TRs are by no means "high risk" once you consider those things; TRs have never been the class that topped the death charts for appropriately geared dungeons.
It's also no coincidence that TRs were the first ones able to solo a lot of dungeons, because by your terminology, TRs have been the class that's generally enjoyed the lowest risk of all classes. Remain stealthy, and most mobs will never hit you. There's no lower risk than that. But then, with the new additional dodge, greater dodge range, and unlimited ranged attacks, that certainly mitigates that increased risk too.
I'm not sure which ranged abilities you are refering to. COS? Impact shot?. Blitz and DIS are about the only ranged abilities a rogue has that are worth a ****, and they are not even on the map compared to what a HR or SW or CW can do. Also "unlimited range attacks" It remains to be seen how the new COS is going to pan out, Plus an unlimited single target ranged at-will is something that other classes have always had, I sincerely doubt that a TR is going to be able to deal as much damage from range as a DC is with their at-wills, much less an HR or SW or CW. "Mixture of melee and ranged attacks" describes the HR class, not the TR class, at least not in PVE.
Also, stealth is an entirely different animal in a group than it is soloing, anyone who has ever played the class for any length of time knows this. Just by having someone within 50ft of me while stealthed increases my chances of dying by at least 50%. Mobs react differently, aggro differently, and attack differently. They attack the TR differently even if they are aggroed on him and ignoring other players, just by having someone within a certain proximity. Also, the ITC nerf, combined with the dodge change is at best a net 0 effect in terms of rogue survivability, and I think they've nixed the greater dodge range, there was no mention of it in the latest patch notes.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Also, stealth is an entirely different animal in a group than it is soloing, anyone who has ever played the class for any length of time knows this. Just by having someone within 50ft of me while stealthed increases my chances of dying by at least 50%. Mobs react differently, aggro differently, and attack differently. They attack the TR differently even if they are aggroed on him and ignoring other players, just by having someone within a certain proximity.
Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating to engage a medium IWD heroic encounter and solo it for a while, and be in total control of the situation, and have it all go to pot once more players arrive on the scene. And it's not that I begrudge their presence because I can't finish the encounters alone with the time limits, but there's chaotic red-everywhere once attacks are going off every which way and people are running everywhere and dragging mobs towards me and away from me all willy-willy. Alone, I can use my out-of-stealth windows to position mobs where I want them for optimal attacks. With other people around, I have to hope that mobs get positioned where I'm still capable of doing some good.
Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating to engage a medium IWD heroic encounter and solo it for a while, and be in total control of the situation, and have it all go to pot once more players arrive on the scene. And it's not that I begrudge their presence because I can't finish the encounters alone with the time limits, but there's chaotic red-everywhere once attacks are going off every which way and people are running everywhere and dragging mobs towards me and away from me all willy-willy. Alone, I can use my out-of-stealth windows to position mobs where I want them for optimal attacks. With other people around, I have to hope that mobs get positioned where I'm still capable of doing some good.
Which qualifies as a stealth issue in what way...? The only thing I see is a classic undisciplined chaos coming from a group of people who never fought as a team before... since.. well.. they aren't a team anyway. Just a group of different people following their own agenda, mode of fighting. Chaos is to be expected.
Sure, things get messed up all the time. But it ain't no stealth issues. It's people issues.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I actually proposed this as a solution long ago in how to deal with stealth and perma stealth as I found it a bit silly that I could stand there and attack an enemy and have it do nothing.
I would consider it a stealth issue based on what happens when you are in stealth and fighting some enemy. Along comes an HR or SW and they attack from distance. The enemy you were attacking that had been ignoring you suddenly start attacking you, and unless you noticed the ranged attacker arrive you will be hit by these enemy and will be caught off guard. Personally I wish the enemy would attack randomly (or in the direction of the perceived attack) when attacked from stealth, but I don't like how it is one way when solo and another way when others join in. It is similar to what happens when two permas engage the same target, but in the case above they seem to ignore the ranged attacker and focus on the stealthed TR.
God forbid the striker class with no debuffs, buffs, low HP, low defense, no healing, very limited target caps, and sub-par CC only if specced for it, actually deals damage. That's the only thing I'm getting from you. You totally took my comments out of context. I said 3-4 times SINGLE target damage. Other classes did better AOE, and still do. Actual performance was - TRs were valued in dungeons, but not stacked. Damage dealt and kills were roughly equal between TR and other classes. TR players had fun and performed well in dungeons, and not just bis-specced players with perfect rotations.
I think EVERYONE would like to see more creative and challenging content. But that is not a appropriate argument for class balance under EXISTING conditions.
It's like saying rogues get 100% deflection when flurrying. Ya, that would be sweet, if it were true, but it's not. Get your head out of the clouds man.
This.
All classes have a role to fill, ours is dps and nothing else atm. (mod4 and most likely mod5 from the current state).
- CW's cc is a part of their dps, which they're great at. Great at both aoe and single target.
- SW's can spec for pretty good dps and solid group heals, or pure dps which is great.
- GWF's can tank somewhat, and/or have good dps.
- HR's have solid dps, good survivability and can dish out dps from range.
- DC's have even in mod4 a role to fill, debuffs, buffs and heals are always welcome. They're better in mod5.
- GF's are in a good spot, kv + itf + ef makes them a great contribution in groups, not to mention the mark itself, albeit it's a bit passive, but useful.
Where do we fit in all this? As shadow said we have no debuffs, no buffs and our dps is lower than cw's, sw's and hr's.
In any case, i guess we hoped for something more. Something that would make us wanted in PvE primarily, as we've no niche to fill. All we bring to the table is dps, and we're not that good at it even.
In addition to that, as all melee classes in mmo's since EQ, we lose precious dps time due to our range limitations, this is usually compensated in some other matter (risk vs reward), but currently im not feeling any advantages of breathing down a mobs neck and having to dodge away from large pob-aoes, losing dps, and re-engaging, while a ranged class can plonk on the mob from afar, also while moving.
Why can't we have an inherent mechanic, something similar to the gf mark, call it exploit weakness, that applies on hit, and can stack on mobs, make it pve only for all i care. Or some debuffs implemented in some of our skills (we've only 3 encounter slots, making a debuff encounter would limit us too much imo, and would make the playstyle more passive, like gf's).
Personally, im more or less ok with the survivability in pve now, it's not great, but as long as im moving and positioning correctly, i'm fine. I just wish it was more rewarding.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I would consider it a stealth issue based on what happens when you are in stealth and fighting some enemy. Along comes an HR or SW and they attack from distance. The enemy you were attacking that had been ignoring you suddenly start attacking you, and unless you noticed the ranged attacker arrive you will be hit by these enemy and will be caught off guard.
Not my experience at all. In the scenario you describe, what I'd expect is the mob would immediately scoot over to the ranged attacker, leaving me flailing at the air (if playing a more standard melee build).
@kweassa
I wasn't really describing it as a stealth issue, but more in general about how actions taken in stealth can be very different when one is alone as opposed to when one is, not even partied, but around other players, because the AI is reacting to a ton of different things.
But stealth is... shall we say, less reliable... when other people get involved in PvE. It's not even the occasional lack of a safety net, but the fact that other people can also cause our attack windows to get blown, through no fault of ours, and that recovering from that gets more difficult the crazier the situation gets. And when your contribution is measured by how much damage you can dish out, not being able to position, not being able to get your attacks in during the crucial moments, or having the big ones miss and go into a long cooldown... it's pretty frustrating.
I do have some levels of concern about how the alterations will play out in chaotic group content, because everything should be tickety-boo when everyone is playing their roles well. The problem is, unless you're exclusively playing with people you know and trust (not even possible in open world heroics), you're likely to end up involved in this kind of chaos on a nigh-daily basis.
I like a lot of the changes. I think I can work well with a lot of the changes. I'm observing that some of it is likely to make situations that were already pretty bad even worse.
@kweassa
I wasn't really describing it as a stealth issue, but more in general about how actions taken in stealth can be very different when one is alone as opposed to when one is, not even partied, but around other players, because the AI is reacting to a ton of different things.
But stealth is... shall we say, less reliable... when other people get involved in PvE. It's not even the occasional lack of a safety net, but the fact that other people can also cause our attack windows to get blown, through no fault of ours, and that recovering from that gets more difficult the crazier the situation gets.
I know. But considering just how powerful the stealth is as a defense tool, I consider it an acceptable trade off.
Which other classes can "pause" the fight for 10 seconds and wait for recharge or heal up?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not my experience at all. In the scenario you describe, what I'd expect is the mob would immediately scoot over to the ranged attacker, leaving me flailing at the air (if playing a more standard melee build).
The first time I noticed it was in IWD after the patch that removed the distance aggro reduction, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. I am actually thinking it could be the bleed from my lightfoot thief as I have two TR (one with and one without but also different in other areas) and it only happens on the one with (but I do play them differently and they are specced different so not 100% sure). Even places like SP on the final boss many of the adds will ignore others and steadily pursue me in stealth. I can even do what I call a "TR Mez" where I can sometimes get a mob to follow me around and it will ignore everyone else regardless of the damage they do to it. It is only when I become visible that it will leave me and go to them. Basically half the time my stealth seems to work in reverse. I did a few bug reports on this as well as a few posts but it has been around since whenever that patch was.
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
That is really weird. When stealthed, my only problem tends to be getting targets to not move away from me faster than I can hit them while using melee attacks, if there is anything else around for them to aggro onto.
You could test if it happens to the TR using that companion if they take the companion off.
That is really weird. When stealthed, my only problem tends to be getting targets to not move away from me faster than I can hit them while using melee attacks, if there is anything else around for them to aggro onto.
You could test if it happens to the TR using that companion if they take the companion off.
Aye I really have been meaning to do this but I haven't taken the time to get around to it -- well actually I think I did test it one time and that was what led me to suspect it was it in the first place.
■ we've got a nice set of defense debuffs that equate to 5~9% damage increase Not sure what your talking about here, but I was talking about PARTY buffs and debuffs. Which, in the past rogues had wicked reminder, catspaw style, and critical teamwork. Wicked reminder was changed to self only in M4 and catspaw and critical teamwork never made it to M5
■ we've got the game's highest damage buff not sure what your talking about, but if it's first strike........ you've failed to make your point, especially since it's self only
■ HP is totally dependant on how you build it And much higher on a GF or GWF if built the same way, you know, the other two melee classes
■ you want to count how many other classes have healing outside of LS and regen HR, DC, and SW, that's three out of seven
■ every AoE in game is target-capped except for a very few If your really trying to say that Classes like GWF, CW, and SW and HR have the same target limitations that TR does...... just stop there.
■ "sub-par CC"... I can only laughI play an oppressor CW, if I spec full CC, I can pretty much perma lock 20 mobs without breaking a sweat. Compare scoundrel to that and I'm the one laughing at you.
The TR may be weaker OR stronger than other classes in certain given roles, but never in extremes. I'd say the PVE situation of the TR class in dungeons has been pretty freaking extreme since M2
Just where dafuq is the point you would be satisfied?
When TRs are wanted in dungeons again, but not stacked, in other words, balance.
Oh, that's right. You consider the massive shi*-HAMSTER damage the "ancient" TRs used to do as being optimal for PvE. *snicker* I forgot that part. I thought you were actually interested in balance. Ya, the ancient TR, the only time TR's were ever wanted in dungeons, which is the only reason I brought it up
It is no wonder your types want that "DF from stealth" so badly. Now I understand why. Clearly you don't, since you obviously haven't used it enough to know that flurry doesn't give you deflection, and likely know far too little about the playstyle to understand where we are coming from.
Your definition of PvE is someone in front of that punching bag in the local arcade. You give a strong punch, the numbers come up, and you define who is strong and who is weak by who has the highest numbers, and that is the pitiful definition of "PvE" for you. And your definition would be watching players of other classes with half your gear score and skill level make you look like a companion. Ok, so maybe that's an exaggeration. But when you can clearly see and feel the lack of contribution the TR class brings to a dungeon, and how much easier and rewarding it is to do so playing another class there are clear balance issues there besides numbers.
You don't want any real fighting experience, you don't want to enjoy the combat, or have a fun session with your friends, feel what it is like to fight together as a team, or enjoy the story, or want a challenge. You don't want anything that makes PvE a PvE.
Actually I want the numbers to change, because the numbers ARE what's changing so that I can participate the above and have fun without feeling like the gimp being dragged around out of pity invites rather than a solid member of the team.
Comments in RED.
What the hell is wrong with you Kweassa? I can't decide if your intentionally trying to sabotage the preview changes with disguised motives, or just so out of touch with the class that you actually think your right. Seriously dude, do you EVEN run dungeons?
0
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
I wonder if they'll be able to release another update before Friday. I really want to see how Smoke Bomb fits into my WK Scoundrel's build... and I have all these different gear setups to try it with....
I'm going to have to figure out whether I want a Disheartening or a DF artifact weapon on him too. I've got 6 weapons to salvage into shards to buy one right away, but this might end up being a tough call. (And I do have a CoS one I've got a few levels on, but it's not a power I've tended to slot on this particular character, so I don't want to invest in it heavily.)
Comments
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It's really hard to imagine what the devs were going for. It seems they were focused on PVP changes and only started working on PVE after massive amounts of feedback. It kinda seems tho that the goal was to make perma more accessible and effective for low GS and new players while destroying the current high skill perma builds. That's basically what the changes to Gloaming cut and stealth equate to. Also, when the first changes hit preview, Path of the blade would have been insanity for PVP, and was a very passive, low-skill means of inflicting damage via stealth, Gloaming cut was triple boosted and the addition of a 3rd stealth refill feat on par with shadow strike is now in place, you don't need high int and recovery to perma anymore. ITC, COS, and flurry were nerfed in their usability in PVP. The change to first strike also seemed very PVP oriented.
It was extremely nice to see feedback leading to some positive changes for rogues in PVE, including the boosts to whisperknife, scoundrel CC, dazing strike, and the latest at-will changes. I'm also glad some of the OP things were dialed back in PVP, such as first strike, path of the blade, and the latest- gloaming cut.
I don't really like auto-crit, on CW either, but I think the die is cast on that. It was an extremely easy way to boost all of a rogue's encounters and dailies without actually reworking every one.
I'm crossing my fingers that feed back will lead to the rework of shadowy opportunity, to me, unmitigated damage proccing from a feat doesn't belong in pvp.
One of the consideration of the rogue class in PVP is the sheer difference between a skilled, geared player, and a player new to the class. How do you make the class fun and viable for new players in a PVP experience without putting the salty dogs way over the top. The rogue class is one which skill rewards, IMO it is the class where skill as a factor is more important than any other class and one of the reasons I love the class so much. The best way to deal with that is COMPLETELY reworking stealth, encounters, and dailies, and addressing the hit detection range and activation times of melee abilities. I really don't think we are going to get that, though we have gotten changes that scratch the surface in that regard.
Howdy there, kweassa. I'm a GF main: my only level 60 characters are a GF and a SW (who's still in greens), so don't read this as coming from someone who has some vested interest in getting TRs buffed insanely.
You seem to suffer from some very serious delusions and logical fallacies. Allow me to attempt to dispel these; I would not normally butt into a conversation like this, but it's so glaring that I simply can't bear to see you go on without making comment.
You deny everyone else's subjective evidence because it's subjective. You say that you can't accept people's evidence because of their "Feelings" that things are easier on something that isn't TR.
Fine. But then you also deny objective evidence based on Paingiver and attacking dummies and number crunching etc. The reason you do this? Because you feel that dungeon design is to blame and should be what changes instead of TR.
Do note that this is a thread about commenting upon the balance of TRs as they exist at this moment, in this Beta build. This is not asking you to comment on dungeon design, or upon how TRs would work if they were in some other game. Neither of those have anything to do with the question at hand.
Also note that you deny all possible evidence counter to your argument, regardless of significance or corroboration. You suffer from a delusion that your evidence (whatever that may be, since you have presented none except for your subjective opinion that dungeons are lame) trumps everyone else's evidence regardless. If that's so, go make your own thread where people can ignore you for being a pompous stupid face. Don't write it somewhere where the decidedly stupid devs will search for the phrase "TRs are fine" and find that someone actually said that and therefore conclude that that is the state of things.
Secondly, I wish to address a specific point you argued about the DPS of ranged versus melee classes.
There's a theory in game design called Risk versus Reward. You've probably heard of it; it defines a non-inverse relationship between how hard and risky something is to do and how much payoff it does.
In this instance, the risk is How much Damage One Might Take and the reward is How much Damage One Might Deal. For two classes which are in the same class (striker) with the same DPS focus, it makes sense to compare their risk versus reward.
You claim that if melee characters deal more damage than ranged characters, then something in the game is broken. This, my friend, is completely counter to Risk versus Reward.
Let's look at this closer. The TR is in melee range. He can be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is likely to draw aggro due to his close proximity to his enemies. This is a High Risk situation; the TR is likely to take damage and possibly die while trying to deal his damage.
The HR/SW/CW is ranged. He can't be hit by AoE powers that are centered around the enemies. He is unlikely to draw aggro due to his distance from his enemies. Playing a HR/SW/CW is Low Risk.
Which class, then, should have higher reward? Should the TR, who must play very actively, dashing in and out of red zones, going in and out of stealth to avoid aggro, carefully conserving his few dashes to escape dire situations, deal less damage than the HR who has camped in the corner and taped down his left mouse button? You say that he SHOULD. The theory of Risk versus Reward says that he SHOULD NOT.
Personally, I (and almost every single other person in game design) ascribe to the theory of Risk versus Reward, not to whatever method you use to arrive at your decision. Players should be rewarded for playing skillfully and taking risks, and there's a lot more skill involved in a TR's playstyle than an HR's playstyle. Therefore, since they're both strikers, the TR should outdamage the HR.
There it is:
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
http://www.arcgames.com/en/games/neverwinter/news/detail/9002383-rise-of-tiamat%3A-coming-november-18th!
I'm also a bit surprised there hasn't been a forum thread about the release date. Maybe Akro takes time off for Halloween.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
You should probably roll an HR. You seem to have a rather odd idea of how ranged strikers play in NW.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
There is still an advantage to distance in that you can see and react to an approaching enemy and are not subject to the 270 (seems more like 360) degree melee attacks. Many times on my TR I will be behind an enemy and get hit by a wide arc melee attack that is executed in the other direction and there is no time at all to react and stealth offers no advantage in such a situation. Also with the tendency for many players to move unnecessarily (some GF will even do this but GWF always seem to do this) and you will be unable to maintain the back of the mob and will be subject to wide arc attacks and often even have the mobs turned around onto you.
very well put
you have proven these facts completely
This was certainly true of content up to IWD. Since then the mobs now include a whole range with instant or near-instant gap closing ability, powerful ranged attacks, and ranged CC. The advantage of ranged classes has been significantly reduced or even neutralised in certain fights.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
+1 on the risk v reward, why do ranged classes do more dps than melee?. This game currently rewards you for playing the easiest classes in which all you need to do is stand there and use your 3 encounters then daily then at will then repeat.
Ranged classes are boring and easy, its why i never play mages. But every game has an easymode class that is usually the mage or archer.
You won't treat this person that u answered to. It's not treated he went into madness and delusions too much.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Agreed, particularly a bad trapper or archer. Bloody fool ends up pulling aggro and dying 20 times before the 2nd boss.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
I'm not sure which ranged abilities you are refering to. COS? Impact shot?. Blitz and DIS are about the only ranged abilities a rogue has that are worth a ****, and they are not even on the map compared to what a HR or SW or CW can do. Also "unlimited range attacks" It remains to be seen how the new COS is going to pan out, Plus an unlimited single target ranged at-will is something that other classes have always had, I sincerely doubt that a TR is going to be able to deal as much damage from range as a DC is with their at-wills, much less an HR or SW or CW. "Mixture of melee and ranged attacks" describes the HR class, not the TR class, at least not in PVE.
Also, stealth is an entirely different animal in a group than it is soloing, anyone who has ever played the class for any length of time knows this. Just by having someone within 50ft of me while stealthed increases my chances of dying by at least 50%. Mobs react differently, aggro differently, and attack differently. They attack the TR differently even if they are aggroed on him and ignoring other players, just by having someone within a certain proximity. Also, the ITC nerf, combined with the dodge change is at best a net 0 effect in terms of rogue survivability, and I think they've nixed the greater dodge range, there was no mention of it in the latest patch notes.
Yeah, it's absolutely fascinating to engage a medium IWD heroic encounter and solo it for a while, and be in total control of the situation, and have it all go to pot once more players arrive on the scene. And it's not that I begrudge their presence because I can't finish the encounters alone with the time limits, but there's chaotic red-everywhere once attacks are going off every which way and people are running everywhere and dragging mobs towards me and away from me all willy-willy. Alone, I can use my out-of-stealth windows to position mobs where I want them for optimal attacks. With other people around, I have to hope that mobs get positioned where I'm still capable of doing some good.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Which qualifies as a stealth issue in what way...? The only thing I see is a classic undisciplined chaos coming from a group of people who never fought as a team before... since.. well.. they aren't a team anyway. Just a group of different people following their own agenda, mode of fighting. Chaos is to be expected.
Sure, things get messed up all the time. But it ain't no stealth issues. It's people issues.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would consider it a stealth issue based on what happens when you are in stealth and fighting some enemy. Along comes an HR or SW and they attack from distance. The enemy you were attacking that had been ignoring you suddenly start attacking you, and unless you noticed the ranged attacker arrive you will be hit by these enemy and will be caught off guard. Personally I wish the enemy would attack randomly (or in the direction of the perceived attack) when attacked from stealth, but I don't like how it is one way when solo and another way when others join in. It is similar to what happens when two permas engage the same target, but in the case above they seem to ignore the ranged attacker and focus on the stealthed TR.
This.
All classes have a role to fill, ours is dps and nothing else atm. (mod4 and most likely mod5 from the current state).
- CW's cc is a part of their dps, which they're great at. Great at both aoe and single target.
- SW's can spec for pretty good dps and solid group heals, or pure dps which is great.
- GWF's can tank somewhat, and/or have good dps.
- HR's have solid dps, good survivability and can dish out dps from range.
- DC's have even in mod4 a role to fill, debuffs, buffs and heals are always welcome. They're better in mod5.
- GF's are in a good spot, kv + itf + ef makes them a great contribution in groups, not to mention the mark itself, albeit it's a bit passive, but useful.
Where do we fit in all this? As shadow said we have no debuffs, no buffs and our dps is lower than cw's, sw's and hr's.
In any case, i guess we hoped for something more. Something that would make us wanted in PvE primarily, as we've no niche to fill. All we bring to the table is dps, and we're not that good at it even.
In addition to that, as all melee classes in mmo's since EQ, we lose precious dps time due to our range limitations, this is usually compensated in some other matter (risk vs reward), but currently im not feeling any advantages of breathing down a mobs neck and having to dodge away from large pob-aoes, losing dps, and re-engaging, while a ranged class can plonk on the mob from afar, also while moving.
Why can't we have an inherent mechanic, something similar to the gf mark, call it exploit weakness, that applies on hit, and can stack on mobs, make it pve only for all i care. Or some debuffs implemented in some of our skills (we've only 3 encounter slots, making a debuff encounter would limit us too much imo, and would make the playstyle more passive, like gf's).
Personally, im more or less ok with the survivability in pve now, it's not great, but as long as im moving and positioning correctly, i'm fine. I just wish it was more rewarding.
Not my experience at all. In the scenario you describe, what I'd expect is the mob would immediately scoot over to the ranged attacker, leaving me flailing at the air (if playing a more standard melee build).
@kweassa
I wasn't really describing it as a stealth issue, but more in general about how actions taken in stealth can be very different when one is alone as opposed to when one is, not even partied, but around other players, because the AI is reacting to a ton of different things.
But stealth is... shall we say, less reliable... when other people get involved in PvE. It's not even the occasional lack of a safety net, but the fact that other people can also cause our attack windows to get blown, through no fault of ours, and that recovering from that gets more difficult the crazier the situation gets. And when your contribution is measured by how much damage you can dish out, not being able to position, not being able to get your attacks in during the crucial moments, or having the big ones miss and go into a long cooldown... it's pretty frustrating.
I do have some levels of concern about how the alterations will play out in chaotic group content, because everything should be tickety-boo when everyone is playing their roles well. The problem is, unless you're exclusively playing with people you know and trust (not even possible in open world heroics), you're likely to end up involved in this kind of chaos on a nigh-daily basis.
I like a lot of the changes. I think I can work well with a lot of the changes. I'm observing that some of it is likely to make situations that were already pretty bad even worse.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I know. But considering just how powerful the stealth is as a defense tool, I consider it an acceptable trade off.
Which other classes can "pause" the fight for 10 seconds and wait for recharge or heal up?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The first time I noticed it was in IWD after the patch that removed the distance aggro reduction, but I don't think that has anything to do with it. I am actually thinking it could be the bleed from my lightfoot thief as I have two TR (one with and one without but also different in other areas) and it only happens on the one with (but I do play them differently and they are specced different so not 100% sure). Even places like SP on the final boss many of the adds will ignore others and steadily pursue me in stealth. I can even do what I call a "TR Mez" where I can sometimes get a mob to follow me around and it will ignore everyone else regardless of the damage they do to it. It is only when I become visible that it will leave me and go to them. Basically half the time my stealth seems to work in reverse. I did a few bug reports on this as well as a few posts but it has been around since whenever that patch was.
You could test if it happens to the TR using that companion if they take the companion off.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
It was more an advice to stop crushing other people's arguments with namecalling and childish behaviour. It's making you look bad.
Aye I really have been meaning to do this but I haven't taken the time to get around to it -- well actually I think I did test it one time and that was what led me to suspect it was it in the first place.
Comments in RED.
What the hell is wrong with you Kweassa? I can't decide if your intentionally trying to sabotage the preview changes with disguised motives, or just so out of touch with the class that you actually think your right. Seriously dude, do you EVEN run dungeons?
I'm going to have to figure out whether I want a Disheartening or a DF artifact weapon on him too. I've got 6 weapons to salvage into shards to buy one right away, but this might end up being a tough call. (And I do have a CoS one I've got a few levels on, but it's not a power I've tended to slot on this particular character, so I don't want to invest in it heavily.)
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia