Something else i really dont understand is the bonus for putting points into shadow strike:
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
May I respectfully share my thoughts and ideas to the upcoming changes for the TR class. This are some of the things I noticed based on my experience for a year playing a TR in NW. *slow for a leather user
*lacks tools to survive (compared to HR with 6 encounters, choice of self buff, self healing with high deflect without sacrificing offense for defense. other class is self explanatory)
*some feats are inferior to other class (other class's feats affects 2-3 encounters with big %)
Feedback: Bait and Switch I feel this encounter needs some attention. I would like to suggest Bait and Switch: Breaks cc and provides 3 seconds stealth (does not deplete stealth meter)
Feedback: Smoke Bomb With the current changes in Dazing Strike this high level encounter is out tiered. I would like to suggest Smoke Bomb: increases deflection chance by 15% while inside the smoke with a persisting effect of 4 secs after leaving the aoe. Smoke Bomb: applies a 5% slow and 5% of current hp as piercing damage.
Feedback: Duelist Flurry The current changes in stealth and the inability to stun or prone makes this At-will hard to use in pvp. I would like to suggest Duelist Flurry: 3rd strike to be usable after the 2nd strike for 4 seconds. Provides 100% deflect chance during the 3rd strike.
Feedback: Impact Shot I do not understand why a three charge encounter with low damage will have a diminishing damage per charge. May I respectfully suggest that all three charges will have the same damage and have a 20% chance to stun for 2 seconds or a 4 secs root because TR is the only class that does not have a stun or prone.
thing i hate about DF is that dodges cancel the wind up
Something else i really dont understand is the bonus for putting points into shadow strike:
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
I agree mate we have this encounter in our bar just to get one stealth bar and a daze instead of a stun for a slow encounter, compared to other class a nuke with a cc in one encounter or HR got 1 buff and 1 cc in one encounter, same goes with smoke bomb we get a aoe daze with no damage and slow/stun so we can connect DF/SF after the encounter we should get at least a self buff for smoke bomb so we can use it to engage or disengage
Yeah, I'm running as MI now, so there's no real DoT to keep going while I'm dodging and smokebomb is currently broken... I'm considering playtesting WK now.
Last night I swapped out Blitz for Shadow Strike and that made a big change for the better. It can be used both defensively and offensively and as it procs Skull Cracker you have a window to unload a follow up attack before stealthing if necessary.
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
make cw use encounter on tab once during combat
make gf use shield once during combat
make gwf use unstopable once during combat
make hr not be able to change stance during combat
make dc be able to switch to divinity once during combat
OR force them to slot 1or in some cases 2 encounters just to be able to reuse their 'TAB'
and then it might.... It just might be a more balanced game
PS: I was never a supporter of the idea that a DnD game should be balanced between classes, that is why i kept playing my TR after 4 nerfs . But since you actually want to balance the classes I want any player of any class of any tree of any path , to be able to kill as fast as he is killed AND DEFEND with any player of any class of any tree of any path... in the same GS.
Or that "Balancing classes" that you so vigorously advertise.... is an epic fail. I wish that you can come up with something and hope that you will, cause you have a game with great potential , and I hate to see that potential fade away
From my testing so far, for best results I find MI Sabateur or WK Scoundrel. For pure fun I find either Scoundrel. I see little justification for Executioner at all (really it feels like it should be feated so that all of its bonuses work whether stealthed or not (since 98% or more it will not be in stealth) and with stealth being relegated to simply buying time or the bonuses to powers used from stealth). Now everyone's style varies so I am just sharing my experience.
While I am pleased that the TR is finally be addressed it seems that MI is being forced to go to the (even easier) new perma -- which confuses me as much of these changes were to do away with that I thought and not make it easier.
OK, in lieu of having the time when there are actually people on to get a group together for dungeons, I went and attempted to solo some IWD HEs before bed. I don't have the capabilities to make video so you don't get any, and I forgot to switch ACT over to the preview log because I am tired and tired makes me dumb. I'll see what I can figure out this weekend. It's my birthday today, I reserve the right to be lazy.
So, it might be doable if I got there at the very beginning as it started, but coming into Rescue Prospectors at 14 minutes, Bear Clan Invasion at 13 and Yeti Rampage at 11 I unsurprisingly wasn't able to clear before time ran out. Prospectors I was clearing the last group of cage guardians, BCI I was about halfway through the reinforcements, YR I was halfway through the last three yeti of the reinforcements for that. Problem is, what lets you actually survive isn't all that fast, as opposed to my CW who just shows up with her 4 encounter powers that all do good AoE damage and her quickly-filling no-target-limit daily of doom, pulls 2 groups at a time and wrecks face.
My build is MI Saboteur with 5 points in Exe. I'm 16.1k GS with 6.8k Power. 27 Dex/20 STR/16 CHA. Since I'm hunting HEs I kept the First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault loadout. Couple general thoughts:
- BCI was hardest. Lots of quick mobs. Wolves are bloody annoying. As I expected. Yeti Rampage was easiest by far, but also the most tedious and slow. Also expected; running an AoE setup with no DoT. Rescue the Prospectors was the least tedious. The spawns consisting of four Shamans were the most difficult part by far. Not having room for ItC hurts, but SS is needed. See next item. Overall, the performance now on packs of mobs is greatly improved and TR will actually have some use in dungeon clearing outside the bosses. This is a very positive change.
I'm still not sold on TR's single-target sustained damage, however, and will need to do some more testing when I can get some dungeon runs in to see how it stacks up. Trying to organize running the same dungeon with the same group on both live and preview to see exactly what the difference is, also still working on a boss rotation I'm fully happy with.
- Even as a Sab it can take a while to recover stealth, even running around. Faster mobs that can pounce you mean you're entirely relying on Shadow Strike and One With The Shadows to re-enter stealth since it will never regenerate on its own, and when they can see you you're dead. (Being caught out of stealth was the cause of all three times I died between the HEs. Two of them were in BCI, which has faster pouncing mobs in larger numbers.)
At-wills drain stealth except GC(Which I still vehemently disagree with); we're the only class whose tab mechanic is rendered useless by taking damage. Perma is still possible if you really want to anyway: Please for the love of the gods of Toril get rid of damage draining stealth, at least while it's refilling. I'm OK with it draining while active from damage, that's one of the ways to deal with a perma in PvP, drop AoEs to drain their stealth and break their rotation, but while it's refilling needs to go. If we're supposed to be weaving in and out of stealth, I'd like to be able to do that without having to permanently give up 1/3 of my encounter slots to an encounter that does basically nothing but allow me to use my tab feature. It's less of an annoyance on Saboteur because at least you have One With The Shadows, but Scoundrel and especially the very stealth reliant Executioner don't have that 15s cooldown guaranteed stealth feature.
- Everyone else has complained about it, and so will I. Speaking of OWTS, Shadow Strike really needs to not proc it. ;P
- Swashbucking Captain's set bonus is difficult to get up and maintain without DF to get enough hits quick enough to keep the stacks up. This isn't a relevation or anything, but it is annoying.
- OK, anything that requires you to be behind an enemy might as well not exist in solo play. Or if you manage to get aggro in a dungeon/skirmish. Or if your 'tank'/aggro holder spins the boss. Etc. A couple of the Sab feats are like this and it's worthless lol. You lose too much stealth time solo running behind something. I think I saw Return to Shadows proc maybe twice the whole time I was HEing, mostly on the Yeti since those charge past you and you can hit them in the back while they do it. Derp.
- Cloud of Steel. It's a fantastic 'must pull back and disengage' when you're fighting stuff that works on. Great for throwing into areas full of AoE where entering will make you die. Long ago it was nerfed because of Perma TRs throwing it from stealth in PvP. This is no longer an issue at all. Please restore it to its original 12 charges. Or at least make the cooldown per dagger shorter. WK is partly ranged anyway so that's good for them, and MI is severely lacking in 'Oh HAMSTER must get out the floor is lava from so many AoE splats' options. A lot of PvE TRs I know second Sly Flourish for those 'can't use DF because it's moving too much' moments; I've always preferred to second CoS for those 'lavaaaa' moments. With 8 charges you're standing there looking stupid quickly. 12 or a faster recharge would alleviate this problem.
- Been mentioned a million times and I will mention it again, dodges are currently bugged in two ways: The stamina reduction that was supposed to go up is not working properly, and you have infinite dodges in stealth. I'm totally OK with the latter and you can forget to fix it ever if you like, but the first needs a fix. Especially since it partially works - The first two take 50%, but after that you can dodge at 1/3 stamina. Derp.
- Permastealth is not now and never has been an issue in PvE. Yeah you can permastealth your way to soloclearing T2 dungeons. It takes forever even for the people who can do it. Big deal, CW does that just running through nuking everything. GWF just smacks it all and pounds tab. The stealth at-will reduction needs to be reduced or eliminated in PvE. Leave it in PvP. Perma annoys me too, even if I view it as mostly just a very good application of tools. This is one of those instances where a separation of PvE and PvP mechanics needs to occur. Hells, the patch notes from last year don't say the reduction amount, but I'm 90% certain that this current nonsense is MORE than the reduction per hit from the first time you guys tried this(And undid it three days later because about two people liked it who were actually TRs.)
- On that note, Lurker's has basically lost half its point. :P
- At the very least, at least let DF's flurry only count as one hit in PvE for the purposes of stealth drain. Everything that synergized with it is gone, but it's still MI's only real DoT, and incredibly important at bosses where we're frequently dodging and unable to attack reliably as it keeps the damage going.
- I know the balance people aren't the ones who fix animations, but maybe beat them upside the head with this: The TR walk animation is STILL missing and STILL replaced with a ridiculous slowed down version of the combat run. It looks awful, affects when we stop running, when we land from jumping, etc, everything out of combat. I've been reporting this since July when it was first messed up on the preview server before Mod 4 went live. I have a fantastic screenshot of my TR walking in IWD before the issue went live. I won an instagram contest with it. It looked awesome. I want it back. Shake who you need to. Forward it to them. Please.
- I wish to whine about GC being slow. Please ignore this as it is simply whining, the power is fine, I just don't like slow things on a class that should feel fast. Whine whine whine. OK, got that out of my system. :P
That's it for now. Super tired and I have to get up in an hour to drive three hours to San Francisco, and I hate the 580. :P
Last night I swapped out Blitz for Shadow Strike and that made a big change for the better. It can be used both defensively and offensively and as it procs Skull Cracker you have a window to unload a follow up attack before stealthing if necessary.
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
Again, for the sake of the community, another "secret" to Scoundrel I am disclosing.
twilight, I hope these videos help.
Showcase: Well of Dragons, WK/ranged Scoundrel - "The ULTIMATE AoE TR for PvP"
What point 1 implies = the number of simultaneous targets hit by Blitz, PotB, and constand DHS ticks
At the beginning I dump WoB on purpose at 00:04
From the start of the fight with empty AP,
it took exactly a total of 26 seconds to full AP
13 seconds from beginning of the fight to phase1 mobs all gone = 50% AP
Another 13 seconds from phase2 mobs = 50% AP for a total of 100% within 26 seconds
Another point to look at.
PotB provides small but endless stream of incoming HP
WoB and buffed-up Blitz provides big chunks of life. Watch closely 02:07 --
3,937 HP returned by hitting only three mobs with a non-WoB buffed Blitz dealing around 12k damage. That is around 1.2life returned (around 10% with my stats). Were it 7 targets it would be 8,400 HP. If it were WoB buffed Blitz, dealing around 18k damage with my stats, 7 targets would have given me back 12.6k HP
i can build action points faster than you now in live without slotting TACTICS, quite sure.
i find the endless need of shadow strike DEPRESSING.
i find the use of at will out of stealth DEPRESSING, it s like "oh no im screwed let me land 2-3 at will while thinking what i m going to do"
i find this new "encounter to do damage" things DEPRESSING: Cooldowns are LOOOONG even with 20 INT and 2600 recovery! 10 seconds blitz! 16 seconds lashing blade! WITH 20 INT AND 2600 RECOVERY !!!!!!!!!
And on top of that -1 encounter slot for shadow strike, -1 encounter slot for ITC, 1 slot left.
i find the executioner path a JOKE: "While in stealth you are going to do incredible things" path. Well 1 seconds stealth every 30 seconds is like playing without feats.
What's the use of piercing damage too? "while doing damage in stealth you are going to hit for xxxx piercing".....yai 3 at wills. Now i can give this feats a sense being perma like never in my life but you know what??? ACT states that doing like that my DPS increase of 5%.....5%.........seriously?????
i find some of our class feature depressing....sneak attack! this joke of class feature...what s his use? to run faster in protector enclave??? i have a mount thanks. It was depressing before too but at least i could use at wills.
just where is the sustained dps????
duelist flurry no use,
sly flourish no use,
cloud of steal no use.
and again for the love of god, why do i need always shadow strike??? why?
We are the class that reading feats do damages only if in stealth but everythings we do from stealth causes it to drop. Funny so sense much?
I really really think that the stealth meter should gradually replenish ALL THE TIME while outside of stealth, damage shouldn't decrease it or stop it from replenishing, I have no trouble with damage emptying the meter while in stealth but outside of it damage should not do that.
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I really really think that the stealth meter should gradually replenish ALL THE TIME while outside of stealth, damage shouldn't decrease it or stop it from replenishing, I have no trouble with damage emptying the meter while in stealth but outside of it damage should not do that.
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
(ps) Stealth makes plenty of sense to me since I view it as a repositioning, opportunitistic tool, not a constant variable that allows you to enjoy maximum benefits of offense and defense at the same time, and I don't really think the [other classes' tab compare blablabla] argument has any logic, since the only thing matters if the function is doing the job for the class that owns it.
And from my viewpoint, it does. If it effect combat any more than this, then us TRs are inexcusably OP, no doubt about it whatsover.
Different school of thought, I guess.
To me it seem that the other classes are more functional without their tab (except maybe the GF but they are different now and I haven't played one since the changes to them). It is like they were designed well and their tab is an added functionality. The TR on the other hand seems to designed around the tab (and even held back by it as we all know) and without the tab is hardly a class at all (one reason I enjoy the new Scoundrel so much is that it can actually do something with the tab). I think the devs should really work out the class first and then do the tab and additional tab functionality to powers (it still seems like every choice they made for the TR was based on the tab).
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
IMO bad dungeon design, not class design.
As a general rule of thumb in ANY MMOG;
(1) Ranged classes naturally, always have a DPS advantage over melees. This is simply a given fact in any well-established MMOG. The whole point of melee/ranged distinction is melees are meatshields to hold mobs at bay, while the real damage is done by 2nd or 3rd line nukers. Not to mention as long as the melees hold the aggro, melees have to divide their action between defense and attack. To expect a melee to exceed a ranged class in pure DPS is simply wrong, unless one builds a melee as simply a glass cannon with zero tangible survivability of its own.
What's the point of playing a ranged class when melees not only charge in the first line, defends itself, and still does more damage than the rear-line, free-dealing ranged? Comic relief?
(2) In that sense, all content in NW is very casual. It's designed so that even the lowest level of players can reasonably enjoy any dungeon. Compare it to WoW, which requires clockwork mechanics and exact timing, that a 3rd-party add-on is often warranted to add addtional functions to your HUD so you do not miss it -- lest the entire raiding party might get wiped, again and again and again.
In other words, the game's mostly super easy. When the game is easy, the potential difference in DPS capabilities usually manifest with extreme exaggeration. Even a slight difference in DPS potential will be very noticeably expressed in game.
I've said this before, but imagine mobs with faster and more variety of attacks that really hurts even classes like GWFs. Do you think the GWF can so much outshine the TR when it also has to sprint around and take defensive action every time? How about if more intelligent mob spawns target the CWs or DCs more often? What if these mobs are fast and deadly, has some amount of CC resistance and has high resistance to magic based attacks, while more weaker against direct physical? Would the CW still be able to pull so far ahead in damage when its busy running around, need to rely on the team's tank, or support/secondary DPS TRs come to rescue him?
If you think about it, when you're low in level and undergeared, surely you've realized the difference in damage isn't all that big. But once we near end-game in NW, then suddenly the GWFs or SWs or CWs just pull ahead.
This is a problem with shabby dungeon design, to cater for lower level players. You don't solve this problem by simply magnifying the power of one, supposedly "weak class". This problem needs a seperate attention from the developers, and a different policy concerning dungeon design.
Let's see how the CWs fare against a Beholder when its magic reflection/suppression is accurately portrayed in game, and when the aggro is shaky and it constantly switches targets to attack. Would the CW be able to deal so much damage when his magic goes poof, and every time he has to maneuver to get to the back side?
You get the idea. Lack of stronger, more intelligent mobs, better dungeon design. These are the reasons behind the problems we're seeing -- not the class itself.
That is my strong opinion, sud.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
I agree. This is the reason why we should ask for more, it is true that we are receiving improvements but the question is will this suffice? Are we not left far behind? I do not understand why they are giving us improvements accompanied by nerfs, if you will look at other class if you know your stuff and their stuff at the same time you will surely get jealous because what we are receiving are scraps for example a HR with 6 encounters, cheap dailies, deflect that heals, self buff of their choice, prone,stun, root haha! boom! and many more if you know them! other class is self explanatory. And what we have is a TAB that deplete when hit and hitting pathetic is it not? plus one minus encounter bar for SS because if we do not use it then less chance to survive because STEALTH IS ALL WE HAVE.
All I want for Christmas are my first 2 swings (removed from duelist flurry)
without joking 1 swing less and the ability for "at will only" to crit if in combat advantage would do a lot of work!
NB: you are not going to have combat advantage in pvp on node holding out of stealth so it's kind of balanced.
that plus the ability for stealth to refill even in combat and even taking damage ( will fix the shadow strike need ) and we are on the right way.
anyways more feats should work in combat advantage and not only in stealth.
NOW stealth is not an offensive mechanic,
so for exclusion it may be defensive?
so why all the damaging feats have to work just in stealth?
IT'S not clear to me WHAT STEALTH IS.
it's an offensive mechanic : why i cant use at will?
it's a defensive mechanic: why all the feats require me to be stealthed?
I also attribute it to mainly dungeon design, but class design to a degree as well. I think there are better ways balancing could be accomplished in a simplistic game such as this that could exploit class differences better. I spent considerable time at one point in my life studying game design and the problems many games encounter. I even ran the physics of weapons and armor and such things as the angular momentum and human muscle efficiency in certain tasks and things such as that to try and bring simplification and realism to the more abstract and seemingly complex topics (that was before there were easily accessible examples of real data on the subject). I like the realism of enemies that don't just bunch up on one target and the lieutenants or commanders that can direct their minions to better formations and strategies and targets (thus more action for GWF's to pursue and lock down certain targets, and controllers to focus on those that refuse to follow predictable patterns, etc). I like the idea of warriors (gf/gwf) trained to hold bottlenecks or to block enemy from simply passing by (less the enemy exposes themselves to great risk). I never even saw the 'rogue' model as a heavy damager, but more of a harasser and opportunist and distractor. In a game like this, though, I feel all strikers should deal relatively the same total damage (in general) with the distinction and variation in how they do it and what else they do.
IT'S not clear to me WHAT STEALTH IS.
it's an offensive mechanic : why i cant use at will?
it's a defensive mechanic: why all the feats require me to be stealthed?
This is just my opinion, but it is an offensive mechanic that is meant to be used for the special "while stealthed" effect of encounter powers.
All the changes u made abt tr for module 5 u kept nerfing them every time, u reduced the base damage ....
from what i see all what u did is just an illusion to cover the nerf of perma stealth but u didn't give anything good in return now i must change to another class or another game with a good rogue assasin or something like that
PS : i'm not a perma rogue great job dev team u make me hate this class
It would be nice to get some sort of feedback on what other fixes changes you guys are up to for the TR. There are a lot that play the TR as main, and being stuck in 'limbo' with these changes leaves little motivation to play. Feedback, good or bad, gives us motivation.
Honestly, rayrdan, at this point you are just asking for everything.
You want maximal damage. You want more defense. You want maximal survivability. You want faster activating powers. You want to swing at-wills at stealth. You want the quick stealth refills. You want the old "I attack from stealth, you just get hit and die". You want the old dailies damage back
Some people say they hate the changes because the TRs are too weak. I've shown everyone they're not weak at all. Then they say it's hard to do certain stuff. I show them there's a way. Then now it's about "I don't like it doing your way". Jesus Christ... :rolleyes:
Now, the TRs have become generally stronger in PvP. They're everybit as much competent as they were in PvE. I've shown you sustainable damage. I've shown you TRs still survive under hectic conditions. The only differences is you don't like the new methods, but should that, by itself be a reason?
Ultimately, what you guys want is the old TR. And then, give it Executioner level damage. That's all that comes to my head at this point. But it's not gonna happen. Ever.
I don't know what more I can do to convince people who hate something just because they hate it. Obviously all other 'reasons' or 'excuses' I've refuted properly, with evidence that these 'reasons' they've come up with, how the TRs are so weaker and impossible to survive, blablabla.. are simply a farce. A made-up excuse at best.
It now basically boils down to "I want to do it the old way, my way, just as before". The moment the discussion hits that path, it loses all basis or objectivity and becomes a 'preference thing' now.
In that case, I'm really sorry you feel that way. You'd best not be playing the TR anymore then, because I don't see these changes going anywhere. The people standing on the other side of the thought spectrum, like me, love it.
People will adapt and move on. I suggest you do so, as well.
Cheers.
Otherwise, it's just going to be endless frustration for you guys, and that's a sad thought.
[EDIT: I'll delete the last part of my video post since you seem to think its judgemental or something.]
We really should just rename this thread "Kweassa's feedback and glorification of the scoundrel path, and his sage advice for the rest of us nooblets"
I'm glad your happy with the changes, as it turns out, I'm not adverse to them either, however..... You've been talking down to people, passing yourself off as an expert, and "speaking for the devs". All of this I could overlook since you do have good things to say every now and again, except I'm getting a text-wall every other page, or every page, or twice in the same page. Sometimes less is more, shut your pie-hole already.
Many people dislike these changes because the preview rogue doesn't play like the live rogue, or the M3 rogue, or the M2 rogue, or in general like the class they have played and built SINCE THE GAME'S INCEPTION. That anger is justified. What most people wanted were improvements to the Existing rogue, not for them to go reinventing the wheel. For PVE there was absolutely no reason they couldn't have done exactly that. Improve the existing rogue play-style and perhaps open up other play-styles via paths that were not commonly used. Moreover, there is absolutely no excuse that can be given for how many nerfs hit the rogue class and how long it was left in such a terrible state for so long. If at the end of this the rogue class is STILL weak in PVE, it will simply be unforgivable. Now if people want to say that rogues were unbalanced in PVP, that's fine, but then, as now those balancing changes should only affect PVP. Frankly, if they had just left the rogue class alone since open beta, the class would be in a fairly good position now as far as PVE goes.
Now, back on the topic of this thread.
One with the shadows seems to be extremely inconsistent in it's stealth refill proc. On some encounter powers, such as dazing strike, the power breaks the rogue out of stealth while refilling it. In other cases, such as blitz, stealth is refilled but never broken. On other encounters, sometimes stealth is broken and refilled, other times it is not broken but refilled. In some extreme cases I have actually had two back to back encounters refill stealth from a one with the shadows proc.
Along with one with the shadows, the stealth drain coming from flurry is very unpredictable. This makes it extremely hard to maintain a rotation. It is bad enough that at-wills drain so much stealth to begin with. When you can't even take into account how much drain is going to come from an at-will, it just makes things harder. Please, either make bleed stacks accrue from flurry in a predictable rate, or remove bleed stacks as a source of stealth drain.
Along with one with the shadows, the stealth drain coming from flurry is very unpredictable. This makes it extremely hard to maintain a rotation. It is bad enough that at-wills drain so much stealth to begin with. When you can't even take into account how much drain is going to come from an at-will, it just makes things harder. Please, either make bleed stacks accrue from flurry in a predictable rate, or remove bleed stacks as a source of stealth drain.
unless you are saboteur spec and using GC, you shouldn't be using at-wills while stealthed.
We really should just rename this thread "Kweassa's feedback and glorification of the scoundrel path, and his sage advice for the rest of us nooblets"
I'm glad your happy with the changes, as it turns out, I'm not adverse to them either, however..... You've been talking down to people, passing yourself off as an expert, and "speaking for the devs". All of this I could overlook since you do have good things to say every now and again, except I'm getting a text-wall every other page, or every page, or twice in the same page. Sometimes less is more, shut your pie-hole already.
Many people dislike these changes because the preview rogue doesn't play like the live rogue, or the M3 rogue, or the M2 rogue, or in general like the class they have played and built SINCE THE GAME'S INCEPTION. That anger is justified. What most people wanted were improvements to the Existing rogue, not for them to go reinventing the wheel. For PVE there was absolutely no reason they couldn't have done exactly that. Improve the existing rogue play-style and perhaps open up other play-styles via paths that were not commonly used. Moreover, there is absolutely no excuse that can be given for how many nerfs hit the rogue class and how long it was left in such a terrible state for so long. If at the end of this the rogue class is STILL weak in PVE, it will simply be unforgivable. Now if people want to say that rogues were unbalanced in PVP, that's fine, but then, as now those balancing changes should only affect PVP. Frankly, if they had just left the rogue class alone since open beta, the class would be in a fairly good position now as far as PVE goes.
Since I swore I won't engage in a direct debate any longer, so I will just address this once.
Like many others, you also fail to acknowledge that ultimately, how stealth worked out in the past is what led us to this point, both for PvP and PvE. The series of nerfs the TRs had received is due to the failure in balancing stealth as a maximal offense+defense tool.
The very fact the players could leisurely put up a one-sided attack with maximal/sustained damage buffs coming from stealth, while at the same time the victims of that stealth -- be they mobs or players -- having no way to fight back against a presence they cannot see, therefore cannot retaliate against, hence being applied the game's most powerful defense tool at the same time, is what caused the nerfs in the first place.
Bluntly put, the improvements to the existing rogue you speak of is simply a sham. A farce. A facade.
What those words really mean is;
(for PvP) "I want to be able to perma and semiperma, but still be able to kill off people hilariously easily by spamming at-wills endlessly from stealth. So the changes I want is to revert to mod2 days where the developers just return to us all the damage they have taken, but don't touch anything about our stealth mechanics, so we can once again kill anyone and anything fast enough in a one-sided fight"
(for PvE) "I don't want any fancy moves or core mechanics or combos or tactics. To me, only DPS matters, and that's achieved when you don't move, you don't do anything, and simply park my TR right next to the mob and just slash him around endlessly while he has that big blue question mark above his head. So the changes I want would be to simply increase the TR damage upto insane levels, so I can gain some satisfaction knowing that I deal more damage than every other class in the game with such ease".
The direction of changes the developers have put out, seems to me, is obviously a statement that they agree with the opposite school of thought, where I stand, and not with where you stand. I'm sorry that you prefer passive and boring tactics, and have failed to properly adjust and adapt to new and more aggressive ones.
I guess the only thing I can say is I wish you good luck and make do with whatever span of time left for you in Live, because the people who can't do anything if they can't "spam DF from stealth" -- their days are numbered. The game even shows you how many days they've got left, rightside of the screen.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
my only issue is that i feel like i am forced to slot shadow strike and/or tenacious concealment in order to guarantee my stealth bar whenever lashing is off cooldown. makes it difficult to decide on a loadout since skullcracker is best utilized through 2 dps encounters chained together but that's just because lashing is the only dps encounter worth using from stealth. i think i somewhat agree with the need to not have stealth drain from taking damage outside of stealth but let it drain during stealth if you get hit/attack.
haven't been able to do skirmishes/pvp on preview though since it has never popped for me for some weird reason and just disappears from queue
i also feel like we need new class features that don't require dailies. considering i can deal 50% extra damage from combat advantage, it would be nice if i could achieve it easier since it's not the easiest thing even in a group (people move around too much voiding most of my extra dps). perhaps a feat or feature that can give us easier access to combat advantage without stealth?
There will be (again) a lot of "PvP unplayable, one hitted by a TR".
The new stealth system is chaotic. Strong in pvp, semi useless, circumstantial in pve. Stealth should work as GWFs, SWs Tab thing to be decent in both (my personal view). Dont realy need that 100% crit from stealth, but allow us to move, drop stealth at 1st attack, same refill state.
Without aggro, that would be the best. **** annoying when the spidersense tell the mobs around 100 ft away im somewhere there ...
Dont tell me its OP for solo dungeon, without autocrit, its not that good for permastealth TRs (mod5).
Didnt check but i guess TRs still only get Combat Advantage only from Dazing Strike daze: give us CA from every daze
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mojoratMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 90
edited October 2014
So i did my Third attempt at testing today, and my First look at the changes to Dazing Strike.
Rehash, First set of changes i ran MI Saboteur, 14700 gs, lashing blade wicked reminder shadow strike, sneak attack invisible infiltrator whirlwind of blades and bloodbath. Could finish anything intended for single player, was fun and enjoyable. Anything intended for more than one player Such as HE in IWd even the easy ones i died.
I Respeced for the new changes as WK Saboteur and made my first run tonight, Important note in an attempt to make use of all the sab stuff i did not feat for extra stealth and swapped into my half corrupted black ice half profound set, i equped the new offhand weapon and was at 15kgs. My initial setup was Dazing strike, blitz vengance persuit, razor actiond agger threat, used whirlwind of blades and hateful knives.
Ran Arcane Resivour and like the previous spec the intended for 1 person stuff i handled no problem and far better than in live. I then Ran the save the merchant HE in IWD i did manage to ebat it but it was hectic as i got a bear add, i was drinking potions like koolaid.
I then swapped first strike replacing razor action and ran another merchant HE first strike let me clear the first spawn easily, and i managed the rest of it no problem as it was on the road and i got no additional npc opponents. Then logged for work and came to test later
When i came back, I tried running sevral Auril He and could not finish any of them. The best setup i got was Dazing strike, Blitz and Bait and switch and i used blitz and bait and switch alot just to get out of htway.
Bug
The animation for my TR seems off and alot of the time felt slow whenever she moved, i logged a dif char on who is the same race but a GWF and did not hve the constant feeliing of moving though molasses
Specific feedback
Bait and Switch needs to be given, an aggro switch. Alot of the time when i used it monsters ignored it.
I liked the new dodge roll for safety, however i noticed with normal speed, if i hit stealth and rolled away, id have alot of trouble geting back to the enemy to use an encounter before my stealth ran out. Basically, Tr base speed isnt fast enough to roll one way and then snea back.
I found basically, when running the HE if a) i was out of stamina and b) either blitz or Bait and switch were on cooldown when running an HR i died
At 15k gs i am not sure what i did wrong, i ran several differnt power layout
So afer all that, i went to the new Well of Dragons area, and could not complete eitehr HE that I tried.
One thing occurs to me though, Is the fact that these are intended for multiple players suggests i shouldnt be finishig them onmy own. Except im quite sure several other classes could at my gear score.
anyhow i cant stress how much Bait and Switch shifting aggro to the dummu would help..
1) sabouteur: shadow strike should not proc the cap stone
One with the shadow refills stealth in a strange way: some encounters let you become visible before refilling others not. Example: dazing strike---visible / blitz --- still stealthed.
2) scoundrel: sometimes you daze yourself with path of the blade, dazing strike and smoke bomb stealthed.
3) we need a serious HR-like survivability tool: something like aspect of the lone wolf. Something that can be shared by all. ITC nerf cause to be shotted quite often in PvP and PvE. Videos of people suffering in pages ago.
4) Executioner: stealth does not seem to have a role in this path.
5) At will use: seems that at will dont have a role anymore. Can be used out of stealth but add nothing. Every at will should have a *bonus* while used. Duelist adds bleeds and immunity already, something.
6) SHADOW STRIKE can t be the only tools we have to use our Tab.. if its meant to be like that add a fourth encounter slot or increase its damage. Hitting for 500 in pvp and 3k in pve (both critted) is not fun.
7) Stealth should not drop for damage taken *OUT OF STEALTH* and should slowly but steady refill no matter what.
8) First strike should have a use even in long combat: consider to just ADD an internal cooldown and give it a fixed proc : "every ten seconds our next encounter blah blah"
9) NOT RELATED TO TRICKSTER BUG: dread ring boon: deflect severity: Does not add 3% deflect severity correctly.
last but not less important: Kweassa loves all the changes.
i wrote this to avoid you reading 30 pages of no senses.
Comments
The overall damage is so low that putting more than one point into it is useless. Id like to see the animation speed for shadow strike increased but im not sure what else to replace the mediocre 10% damage increase.
thing i hate about DF is that dodges cancel the wind up
I agree mate we have this encounter in our bar just to get one stealth bar and a daze instead of a stun for a slow encounter, compared to other class a nuke with a cc in one encounter or HR got 1 buff and 1 cc in one encounter, same goes with smoke bomb we get a aoe daze with no damage and slow/stun so we can connect DF/SF after the encounter we should get at least a self buff for smoke bomb so we can use it to engage or disengage
Still couldn't finish the Patrol HE with the Drake Rider without dying though. Once he gets off the drake there are just too many strong and fast attacks coming in and I still run out of dodges/stealth at critical moments. I feel like Dodge and/or Deflect needs a minor boost. Otherwise I think Scoundrel is just about there for WK at least.
Going to try Executioner next as last time I ran that build it was lacklustre to say the least.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
make cw use encounter on tab once during combat
make gf use shield once during combat
make gwf use unstopable once during combat
make hr not be able to change stance during combat
make dc be able to switch to divinity once during combat
OR force them to slot 1or in some cases 2 encounters just to be able to reuse their 'TAB'
and then it might.... It just might be a more balanced game
PS: I was never a supporter of the idea that a DnD game should be balanced between classes, that is why i kept playing my TR after 4 nerfs . But since you actually want to balance the classes I want any player of any class of any tree of any path , to be able to kill as fast as he is killed AND DEFEND with any player of any class of any tree of any path... in the same GS.
Or that "Balancing classes" that you so vigorously advertise.... is an epic fail. I wish that you can come up with something and hope that you will, cause you have a game with great potential , and I hate to see that potential fade away
While I am pleased that the TR is finally be addressed it seems that MI is being forced to go to the (even easier) new perma -- which confuses me as much of these changes were to do away with that I thought and not make it easier.
So, it might be doable if I got there at the very beginning as it started, but coming into Rescue Prospectors at 14 minutes, Bear Clan Invasion at 13 and Yeti Rampage at 11 I unsurprisingly wasn't able to clear before time ran out. Prospectors I was clearing the last group of cage guardians, BCI I was about halfway through the reinforcements, YR I was halfway through the last three yeti of the reinforcements for that. Problem is, what lets you actually survive isn't all that fast, as opposed to my CW who just shows up with her 4 encounter powers that all do good AoE damage and her quickly-filling no-target-limit daily of doom, pulls 2 groups at a time and wrecks face.
My build is MI Saboteur with 5 points in Exe. I'm 16.1k GS with 6.8k Power. 27 Dex/20 STR/16 CHA. Since I'm hunting HEs I kept the First Strike/Skillful Infiltrator/Shadow Strike/Dazing Strike/Blitz/Gloaming Cut/Cloud of Steel/Whirlwind of Blades/Lurker's Assault loadout. Couple general thoughts:
- BCI was hardest. Lots of quick mobs. Wolves are bloody annoying. As I expected. Yeti Rampage was easiest by far, but also the most tedious and slow. Also expected; running an AoE setup with no DoT. Rescue the Prospectors was the least tedious. The spawns consisting of four Shamans were the most difficult part by far. Not having room for ItC hurts, but SS is needed. See next item. Overall, the performance now on packs of mobs is greatly improved and TR will actually have some use in dungeon clearing outside the bosses. This is a very positive change.
I'm still not sold on TR's single-target sustained damage, however, and will need to do some more testing when I can get some dungeon runs in to see how it stacks up. Trying to organize running the same dungeon with the same group on both live and preview to see exactly what the difference is, also still working on a boss rotation I'm fully happy with.
- Even as a Sab it can take a while to recover stealth, even running around. Faster mobs that can pounce you mean you're entirely relying on Shadow Strike and One With The Shadows to re-enter stealth since it will never regenerate on its own, and when they can see you you're dead.
At-wills drain stealth except GC(Which I still vehemently disagree with); we're the only class whose tab mechanic is rendered useless by taking damage. Perma is still possible if you really want to anyway: Please for the love of the gods of Toril get rid of damage draining stealth, at least while it's refilling. I'm OK with it draining while active from damage, that's one of the ways to deal with a perma in PvP, drop AoEs to drain their stealth and break their rotation, but while it's refilling needs to go. If we're supposed to be weaving in and out of stealth, I'd like to be able to do that without having to permanently give up 1/3 of my encounter slots to an encounter that does basically nothing but allow me to use my tab feature. It's less of an annoyance on Saboteur because at least you have One With The Shadows, but Scoundrel and especially the very stealth reliant Executioner don't have that 15s cooldown guaranteed stealth feature.
- Everyone else has complained about it, and so will I. Speaking of OWTS, Shadow Strike really needs to not proc it. ;P
- Swashbucking Captain's set bonus is difficult to get up and maintain without DF to get enough hits quick enough to keep the stacks up. This isn't a relevation or anything, but it is annoying.
- OK, anything that requires you to be behind an enemy might as well not exist in solo play. Or if you manage to get aggro in a dungeon/skirmish. Or if your 'tank'/aggro holder spins the boss. Etc. A couple of the Sab feats are like this and it's worthless lol. You lose too much stealth time solo running behind something. I think I saw Return to Shadows proc maybe twice the whole time I was HEing, mostly on the Yeti since those charge past you and you can hit them in the back while they do it. Derp.
- Cloud of Steel. It's a fantastic 'must pull back and disengage' when you're fighting stuff that works on. Great for throwing into areas full of AoE where entering will make you die. Long ago it was nerfed because of Perma TRs throwing it from stealth in PvP. This is no longer an issue at all. Please restore it to its original 12 charges. Or at least make the cooldown per dagger shorter. WK is partly ranged anyway so that's good for them, and MI is severely lacking in 'Oh HAMSTER must get out the floor is lava from so many AoE splats' options. A lot of PvE TRs I know second Sly Flourish for those 'can't use DF because it's moving too much' moments; I've always preferred to second CoS for those 'lavaaaa' moments. With 8 charges you're standing there looking stupid quickly. 12 or a faster recharge would alleviate this problem.
- Been mentioned a million times and I will mention it again, dodges are currently bugged in two ways: The stamina reduction that was supposed to go up is not working properly, and you have infinite dodges in stealth. I'm totally OK with the latter and you can forget to fix it ever if you like, but the first needs a fix. Especially since it partially works - The first two take 50%, but after that you can dodge at 1/3 stamina. Derp.
- Permastealth is not now and never has been an issue in PvE. Yeah you can permastealth your way to soloclearing T2 dungeons. It takes forever even for the people who can do it. Big deal, CW does that just running through nuking everything. GWF just smacks it all and pounds tab. The stealth at-will reduction needs to be reduced or eliminated in PvE. Leave it in PvP. Perma annoys me too, even if I view it as mostly just a very good application of tools. This is one of those instances where a separation of PvE and PvP mechanics needs to occur. Hells, the patch notes from last year don't say the reduction amount, but I'm 90% certain that this current nonsense is MORE than the reduction per hit from the first time you guys tried this(And undid it three days later because about two people liked it who were actually TRs.)
- On that note, Lurker's has basically lost half its point. :P
- At the very least, at least let DF's flurry only count as one hit in PvE for the purposes of stealth drain. Everything that synergized with it is gone, but it's still MI's only real DoT, and incredibly important at bosses where we're frequently dodging and unable to attack reliably as it keeps the damage going.
- I know the balance people aren't the ones who fix animations, but maybe beat them upside the head with this: The TR walk animation is STILL missing and STILL replaced with a ridiculous slowed down version of the combat run. It looks awful, affects when we stop running, when we land from jumping, etc, everything out of combat. I've been reporting this since July when it was first messed up on the preview server before Mod 4 went live. I have a fantastic screenshot of my TR walking in IWD before the issue went live. I won an instagram contest with it. It looked awesome. I want it back. Shake who you need to. Forward it to them. Please.
- I wish to whine about GC being slow. Please ignore this as it is simply whining, the power is fine, I just don't like slow things on a class that should feel fast. Whine whine whine. OK, got that out of my system. :P
That's it for now. Super tired and I have to get up in an hour to drive three hours to San Francisco, and I hate the 580. :P
Again, for the sake of the community, another "secret" to Scoundrel I am disclosing.
twilight, I hope these videos help.
Showcase: Well of Dragons, WK/ranged Scoundrel - "The ULTIMATE AoE TR for PvP"
1. AoE Damage Showcase: http://youtu.be/0GOwTKHPaZs
Take note of the 18~19k WoB → +5 targets, power buffed by 100% → 17~18k Blitz
Wise use of the WoB power buff has practically turned my Blitz into a 2nd WoB that hits 2 more targets
All this damage is done on top of low-but-steady PotB damage. DHS hasn't even been applied
2. The "Secret": Fast AP gain + Superb Life Steal: http://youtu.be/do36-IYbYIU
What point 1 implies = the number of simultaneous targets hit by Blitz, PotB, and constand DHS ticks
At the beginning I dump WoB on purpose at 00:04
From the start of the fight with empty AP,
it took exactly a total of 26 seconds to full AP13 seconds from beginning of the fight to phase1 mobs all gone = 50% AP
Another 13 seconds from phase2 mobs = 50% AP for a total of 100% within 26 seconds
Another point to look at.
PotB provides small but endless stream of incoming HPWoB and buffed-up Blitz provides big chunks of life. Watch closely 02:07 --
3,937 HP returned by hitting only three mobs with a non-WoB buffed Blitz dealing around 12k damage. That is around 1.2life returned (around 10% with my stats). Were it 7 targets it would be 8,400 HP. If it were WoB buffed Blitz, dealing around 18k damage with my stats, 7 targets would have given me back 12.6k HP3. Well of Dragons: Thwarting Sacrifces: http://youtu.be/-L_lbn4JakI
4. Well of Dragons: Thwarting the Hoarders: http://youtu.be/ryiPbg-bZL0
5. Well of Dragons: Thwarting Cult Patrols: http://youtu.be/Mt_B4krxQLg
Clear time:
1 minute 10 secondsAfter clearing, fooling around with the drake. At 02:36 my HP drops lower than 20%
At 02:46, you see Endless Consumption coming into action
Around 03:02, after 26 seconds of fooling around with drake and fighting drake, my life is full
My Life Steal is around 10%. Nothing special at all, as anyone who invests in LS would agree
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i find the endless need of shadow strike DEPRESSING.
i find the use of at will out of stealth DEPRESSING, it s like "oh no im screwed let me land 2-3 at will while thinking what i m going to do"
i find this new "encounter to do damage" things DEPRESSING: Cooldowns are LOOOONG even with 20 INT and 2600 recovery! 10 seconds blitz! 16 seconds lashing blade! WITH 20 INT AND 2600 RECOVERY !!!!!!!!!
And on top of that -1 encounter slot for shadow strike, -1 encounter slot for ITC, 1 slot left.
i find the executioner path a JOKE: "While in stealth you are going to do incredible things" path. Well 1 seconds stealth every 30 seconds is like playing without feats.
What's the use of piercing damage too? "while doing damage in stealth you are going to hit for xxxx piercing".....yai 3 at wills. Now i can give this feats a sense being perma like never in my life but you know what??? ACT states that doing like that my DPS increase of 5%.....5%.........seriously?????
i find some of our class feature depressing....sneak attack! this joke of class feature...what s his use? to run faster in protector enclave??? i have a mount thanks. It was depressing before too but at least i could use at wills.
just where is the sustained dps????
duelist flurry no use,
sly flourish no use,
cloud of steal no use.
and again for the love of god, why do i need always shadow strike??? why?
We are the class that reading feats do damages only if in stealth but everythings we do from stealth causes it to drop. Funny so sense much?
Also, I'm still worried that even though we are getting better, we still underperform in PVE compared to another classes.
I agree with you regarding stealth replenishment (I also still think stealth extending armor and feats should be replaced as well).
Regarding PVE comparisons with other classes, I started the preview with the mindset that the TR would need a considerable amount of increase in damage from live to be comparable to a similar geared/skilled CW/SW/HR/GWF in single target damage as well as an increase in survivability and utility/functionality/group appeal. Some of those classes have bugged powers, I am almost certain, as I still see TT adding millions of damage in less than a minute and I even saw a CW barely over 13k with rank 5/6 and lesser vorpal score 5 mil more damage than me in eLoL (I had 6 mil and was ahead of a comparable geared SW) and considering I almost always beat CW there I can only attribute that to something buggy. This leaves me not knowing quite where we should be at but I agree we are lacking. Now the fun factor is good with the scoundrel, but I am not going to go another year playing single player in an MMO as I can have more fun in the same fashion with a single player game (and yes I can get groups, but the TR in a group feels a lot like a welfare case living on the charity of the rest of the party).
I am not sure if we are getting better yet, that we are being given attention is good but when I see the way the dealt with stealth and at wills and the reasons and then I realize they made it even easier to do what they were claiming the reasons were done to address I get confused and am only left wondering. I am sure I can go with the perma stealth that is on preview now and outdamage what I do on live and do it easier from a greater range of safety and with a lot more flexibility in the approach but I am not a perma on live and I am not going to start playing one now. I am not apathetic as we are still early in testing and there is much to be changed I think.
To me it seem that the other classes are more functional without their tab (except maybe the GF but they are different now and I haven't played one since the changes to them). It is like they were designed well and their tab is an added functionality. The TR on the other hand seems to designed around the tab (and even held back by it as we all know) and without the tab is hardly a class at all (one reason I enjoy the new Scoundrel so much is that it can actually do something with the tab). I think the devs should really work out the class first and then do the tab and additional tab functionality to powers (it still seems like every choice they made for the TR was based on the tab).
IMO bad dungeon design, not class design.
As a general rule of thumb in ANY MMOG;
(1) Ranged classes naturally, always have a DPS advantage over melees. This is simply a given fact in any well-established MMOG. The whole point of melee/ranged distinction is melees are meatshields to hold mobs at bay, while the real damage is done by 2nd or 3rd line nukers. Not to mention as long as the melees hold the aggro, melees have to divide their action between defense and attack. To expect a melee to exceed a ranged class in pure DPS is simply wrong, unless one builds a melee as simply a glass cannon with zero tangible survivability of its own.
What's the point of playing a ranged class when melees not only charge in the first line, defends itself, and still does more damage than the rear-line, free-dealing ranged? Comic relief?
(2) In that sense, all content in NW is very casual. It's designed so that even the lowest level of players can reasonably enjoy any dungeon. Compare it to WoW, which requires clockwork mechanics and exact timing, that a 3rd-party add-on is often warranted to add addtional functions to your HUD so you do not miss it -- lest the entire raiding party might get wiped, again and again and again.
In other words, the game's mostly super easy. When the game is easy, the potential difference in DPS capabilities usually manifest with extreme exaggeration. Even a slight difference in DPS potential will be very noticeably expressed in game.
I've said this before, but imagine mobs with faster and more variety of attacks that really hurts even classes like GWFs. Do you think the GWF can so much outshine the TR when it also has to sprint around and take defensive action every time? How about if more intelligent mob spawns target the CWs or DCs more often? What if these mobs are fast and deadly, has some amount of CC resistance and has high resistance to magic based attacks, while more weaker against direct physical? Would the CW still be able to pull so far ahead in damage when its busy running around, need to rely on the team's tank, or support/secondary DPS TRs come to rescue him?
If you think about it, when you're low in level and undergeared, surely you've realized the difference in damage isn't all that big. But once we near end-game in NW, then suddenly the GWFs or SWs or CWs just pull ahead.
This is a problem with shabby dungeon design, to cater for lower level players. You don't solve this problem by simply magnifying the power of one, supposedly "weak class". This problem needs a seperate attention from the developers, and a different policy concerning dungeon design.
Let's see how the CWs fare against a Beholder when its magic reflection/suppression is accurately portrayed in game, and when the aggro is shaky and it constantly switches targets to attack. Would the CW be able to deal so much damage when his magic goes poof, and every time he has to maneuver to get to the back side?
You get the idea. Lack of stronger, more intelligent mobs, better dungeon design. These are the reasons behind the problems we're seeing -- not the class itself.
That is my strong opinion, sud.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I agree. This is the reason why we should ask for more, it is true that we are receiving improvements but the question is will this suffice? Are we not left far behind? I do not understand why they are giving us improvements accompanied by nerfs, if you will look at other class if you know your stuff and their stuff at the same time you will surely get jealous because what we are receiving are scraps for example a HR with 6 encounters, cheap dailies, deflect that heals, self buff of their choice, prone,stun, root haha! boom! and many more if you know them! other class is self explanatory. And what we have is a TAB that deplete when hit and hitting pathetic is it not? plus one minus encounter bar for SS because if we do not use it then less chance to survive because STEALTH IS ALL WE HAVE.
without joking 1 swing less and the ability for "at will only" to crit if in combat advantage would do a lot of work!
NB: you are not going to have combat advantage in pvp on node holding out of stealth so it's kind of balanced.
that plus the ability for stealth to refill even in combat and even taking damage ( will fix the shadow strike need ) and we are on the right way.
anyways more feats should work in combat advantage and not only in stealth.
NOW stealth is not an offensive mechanic,
so for exclusion it may be defensive?
so why all the damaging feats have to work just in stealth?
IT'S not clear to me WHAT STEALTH IS.
it's an offensive mechanic : why i cant use at will?
it's a defensive mechanic: why all the feats require me to be stealthed?
and if it's a mixed appetizer: why cant i eat it?
I also attribute it to mainly dungeon design, but class design to a degree as well. I think there are better ways balancing could be accomplished in a simplistic game such as this that could exploit class differences better. I spent considerable time at one point in my life studying game design and the problems many games encounter. I even ran the physics of weapons and armor and such things as the angular momentum and human muscle efficiency in certain tasks and things such as that to try and bring simplification and realism to the more abstract and seemingly complex topics (that was before there were easily accessible examples of real data on the subject). I like the realism of enemies that don't just bunch up on one target and the lieutenants or commanders that can direct their minions to better formations and strategies and targets (thus more action for GWF's to pursue and lock down certain targets, and controllers to focus on those that refuse to follow predictable patterns, etc). I like the idea of warriors (gf/gwf) trained to hold bottlenecks or to block enemy from simply passing by (less the enemy exposes themselves to great risk). I never even saw the 'rogue' model as a heavy damager, but more of a harasser and opportunist and distractor. In a game like this, though, I feel all strikers should deal relatively the same total damage (in general) with the distinction and variation in how they do it and what else they do.
Making GC more viable than DF would be a slap in the face of all TRs I know since they trained for weeks/month to master that at-will.
We are always looking for new models --- Borderline Fashiondolls ---
This is just my opinion, but it is an offensive mechanic that is meant to be used for the special "while stealthed" effect of encounter powers.
Dread Ring Boon: Illusion Shimmer 3% Deflect Severity
This boon is currently giving only .2 % for a total of 75.2% instead of 78%
Path Of Blades
Occasionally dazes my toon when i use this.
Smoke Bomb
Also dazes my toon upon activation.
this work for all classes. 3% of you current % severity. Not +3% to your severity. Makes it useless for all.
from what i see all what u did is just an illusion to cover the nerf of perma stealth but u didn't give anything good in return now i must change to another class or another game with a good rogue assasin or something like that
PS : i'm not a perma rogue great job dev team u make me hate this class
It would be nice to get some sort of feedback on what other fixes changes you guys are up to for the TR. There are a lot that play the TR as main, and being stuck in 'limbo' with these changes leaves little motivation to play. Feedback, good or bad, gives us motivation.
We really should just rename this thread "Kweassa's feedback and glorification of the scoundrel path, and his sage advice for the rest of us nooblets"
I'm glad your happy with the changes, as it turns out, I'm not adverse to them either, however..... You've been talking down to people, passing yourself off as an expert, and "speaking for the devs". All of this I could overlook since you do have good things to say every now and again, except I'm getting a text-wall every other page, or every page, or twice in the same page. Sometimes less is more, shut your pie-hole already.
Many people dislike these changes because the preview rogue doesn't play like the live rogue, or the M3 rogue, or the M2 rogue, or in general like the class they have played and built SINCE THE GAME'S INCEPTION. That anger is justified. What most people wanted were improvements to the Existing rogue, not for them to go reinventing the wheel. For PVE there was absolutely no reason they couldn't have done exactly that. Improve the existing rogue play-style and perhaps open up other play-styles via paths that were not commonly used. Moreover, there is absolutely no excuse that can be given for how many nerfs hit the rogue class and how long it was left in such a terrible state for so long. If at the end of this the rogue class is STILL weak in PVE, it will simply be unforgivable. Now if people want to say that rogues were unbalanced in PVP, that's fine, but then, as now those balancing changes should only affect PVP. Frankly, if they had just left the rogue class alone since open beta, the class would be in a fairly good position now as far as PVE goes.
Now, back on the topic of this thread.
One with the shadows seems to be extremely inconsistent in it's stealth refill proc. On some encounter powers, such as dazing strike, the power breaks the rogue out of stealth while refilling it. In other cases, such as blitz, stealth is refilled but never broken. On other encounters, sometimes stealth is broken and refilled, other times it is not broken but refilled. In some extreme cases I have actually had two back to back encounters refill stealth from a one with the shadows proc.
Along with one with the shadows, the stealth drain coming from flurry is very unpredictable. This makes it extremely hard to maintain a rotation. It is bad enough that at-wills drain so much stealth to begin with. When you can't even take into account how much drain is going to come from an at-will, it just makes things harder. Please, either make bleed stacks accrue from flurry in a predictable rate, or remove bleed stacks as a source of stealth drain.
unless you are saboteur spec and using GC, you shouldn't be using at-wills while stealthed.
Since I swore I won't engage in a direct debate any longer, so I will just address this once.
Like many others, you also fail to acknowledge that ultimately, how stealth worked out in the past is what led us to this point, both for PvP and PvE. The series of nerfs the TRs had received is due to the failure in balancing stealth as a maximal offense+defense tool.
The very fact the players could leisurely put up a one-sided attack with maximal/sustained damage buffs coming from stealth, while at the same time the victims of that stealth -- be they mobs or players -- having no way to fight back against a presence they cannot see, therefore cannot retaliate against, hence being applied the game's most powerful defense tool at the same time, is what caused the nerfs in the first place.
Bluntly put, the improvements to the existing rogue you speak of is simply a sham. A farce. A facade.
What those words really mean is;
(for PvP) "I want to be able to perma and semiperma, but still be able to kill off people hilariously easily by spamming at-wills endlessly from stealth. So the changes I want is to revert to mod2 days where the developers just return to us all the damage they have taken, but don't touch anything about our stealth mechanics, so we can once again kill anyone and anything fast enough in a one-sided fight"
(for PvE) "I don't want any fancy moves or core mechanics or combos or tactics. To me, only DPS matters, and that's achieved when you don't move, you don't do anything, and simply park my TR right next to the mob and just slash him around endlessly while he has that big blue question mark above his head. So the changes I want would be to simply increase the TR damage upto insane levels, so I can gain some satisfaction knowing that I deal more damage than every other class in the game with such ease".
The direction of changes the developers have put out, seems to me, is obviously a statement that they agree with the opposite school of thought, where I stand, and not with where you stand. I'm sorry that you prefer passive and boring tactics, and have failed to properly adjust and adapt to new and more aggressive ones.
I guess the only thing I can say is I wish you good luck and make do with whatever span of time left for you in Live, because the people who can't do anything if they can't "spam DF from stealth" -- their days are numbered. The game even shows you how many days they've got left, rightside of the screen.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
haven't been able to do skirmishes/pvp on preview though since it has never popped for me for some weird reason and just disappears from queue
i also feel like we need new class features that don't require dailies. considering i can deal 50% extra damage from combat advantage, it would be nice if i could achieve it easier since it's not the easiest thing even in a group (people move around too much voiding most of my extra dps). perhaps a feat or feature that can give us easier access to combat advantage without stealth?
There will be (again) a lot of "PvP unplayable, one hitted by a TR".
The new stealth system is chaotic. Strong in pvp, semi useless, circumstantial in pve. Stealth should work as GWFs, SWs Tab thing to be decent in both (my personal view). Dont realy need that 100% crit from stealth, but allow us to move, drop stealth at 1st attack, same refill state.
Without aggro, that would be the best. **** annoying when the spidersense tell the mobs around 100 ft away im somewhere there ...
Dont tell me its OP for solo dungeon, without autocrit, its not that good for permastealth TRs (mod5).
Didnt check but i guess TRs still only get Combat Advantage only from Dazing Strike daze: give us CA from every daze
Rehash, First set of changes i ran MI Saboteur, 14700 gs, lashing blade wicked reminder shadow strike, sneak attack invisible infiltrator whirlwind of blades and bloodbath. Could finish anything intended for single player, was fun and enjoyable. Anything intended for more than one player Such as HE in IWd even the easy ones i died.
I Respeced for the new changes as WK Saboteur and made my first run tonight, Important note in an attempt to make use of all the sab stuff i did not feat for extra stealth and swapped into my half corrupted black ice half profound set, i equped the new offhand weapon and was at 15kgs. My initial setup was Dazing strike, blitz vengance persuit, razor actiond agger threat, used whirlwind of blades and hateful knives.
Ran Arcane Resivour and like the previous spec the intended for 1 person stuff i handled no problem and far better than in live. I then Ran the save the merchant HE in IWD i did manage to ebat it but it was hectic as i got a bear add, i was drinking potions like koolaid.
I then swapped first strike replacing razor action and ran another merchant HE first strike let me clear the first spawn easily, and i managed the rest of it no problem as it was on the road and i got no additional npc opponents. Then logged for work and came to test later
When i came back, I tried running sevral Auril He and could not finish any of them. The best setup i got was Dazing strike, Blitz and Bait and switch and i used blitz and bait and switch alot just to get out of htway.
Bug
The animation for my TR seems off and alot of the time felt slow whenever she moved, i logged a dif char on who is the same race but a GWF and did not hve the constant feeliing of moving though molasses
Specific feedback
Bait and Switch needs to be given, an aggro switch. Alot of the time when i used it monsters ignored it.
I liked the new dodge roll for safety, however i noticed with normal speed, if i hit stealth and rolled away, id have alot of trouble geting back to the enemy to use an encounter before my stealth ran out. Basically, Tr base speed isnt fast enough to roll one way and then snea back.
I found basically, when running the HE if a) i was out of stamina and b) either blitz or Bait and switch were on cooldown when running an HR i died
At 15k gs i am not sure what i did wrong, i ran several differnt power layout
So afer all that, i went to the new Well of Dragons area, and could not complete eitehr HE that I tried.
One thing occurs to me though, Is the fact that these are intended for multiple players suggests i shouldnt be finishig them onmy own. Except im quite sure several other classes could at my gear score.
anyhow i cant stress how much Bait and Switch shifting aggro to the dummu would help..
1) sabouteur: shadow strike should not proc the cap stone
One with the shadow refills stealth in a strange way: some encounters let you become visible before refilling others not. Example: dazing strike---visible / blitz --- still stealthed.
2) scoundrel: sometimes you daze yourself with path of the blade, dazing strike and smoke bomb stealthed.
3) we need a serious HR-like survivability tool: something like aspect of the lone wolf. Something that can be shared by all. ITC nerf cause to be shotted quite often in PvP and PvE. Videos of people suffering in pages ago.
4) Executioner: stealth does not seem to have a role in this path.
5) At will use: seems that at will dont have a role anymore. Can be used out of stealth but add nothing. Every at will should have a *bonus* while used. Duelist adds bleeds and immunity already, something.
6) SHADOW STRIKE can t be the only tools we have to use our Tab.. if its meant to be like that add a fourth encounter slot or increase its damage. Hitting for 500 in pvp and 3k in pve (both critted) is not fun.
7) Stealth should not drop for damage taken *OUT OF STEALTH* and should slowly but steady refill no matter what.
8) First strike should have a use even in long combat: consider to just ADD an internal cooldown and give it a fixed proc : "every ten seconds our next encounter blah blah"
9) NOT RELATED TO TRICKSTER BUG: dread ring boon: deflect severity: Does not add 3% deflect severity correctly.
last but not less important: Kweassa loves all the changes.
i wrote this to avoid you reading 30 pages of no senses.