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Official Feedback Thread: Trickster Rogue Changes
gentlemancrush
Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 445Cryptic Developer › Cryptic Developer
Greetings Adventurers!
We haven’t really been happy with the position the Rogue has been in for quite a while now, so we wanted to take a long hard look at their mechanics and adjust some of them to make a more rewarding experience and create some distinct play styles. To that end we have made a lot of power tweaks, adjusted Stealth, and created 3 brand new feat trees.
Overview
Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play. We don’t really like the gameplay of “invisible attacker dealing steady damage” because the cases for counterplay are limited and require more skill to fight against than we feel is appropriate. Therefore we made two major changes to stealth. Firstly it will drain a little bit when you attack from stealth. To compensate for this you will get 100% critical chance while stealthed. We want stealth in Neverwinter to move towards a quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes, rather than an effect you can keep up indefinitely.
Now, Feat Trees. Rogue feat trees were fairly disjointed before, with mostly lackluster capstones. Given that we tore them out and rebuilt them with unique goals in mind. Saboteur will be focused on rebuilding stealth and striking foes from behind. Scoundrel will have access to controls and stuns (including a powerful daze that can lock a foe down) while being a very durable fighter. Executioner is focused on using a golden opportunity to deal an incredible amount of spike damage.
Without further ado, let’s look at the changes.
Powers
Paragon Paths
We haven’t really been happy with the position the Rogue has been in for quite a while now, so we wanted to take a long hard look at their mechanics and adjust some of them to make a more rewarding experience and create some distinct play styles. To that end we have made a lot of power tweaks, adjusted Stealth, and created 3 brand new feat trees.
Overview
Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play. We don’t really like the gameplay of “invisible attacker dealing steady damage” because the cases for counterplay are limited and require more skill to fight against than we feel is appropriate. Therefore we made two major changes to stealth. Firstly it will drain a little bit when you attack from stealth. To compensate for this you will get 100% critical chance while stealthed. We want stealth in Neverwinter to move towards a quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes, rather than an effect you can keep up indefinitely.
Now, Feat Trees. Rogue feat trees were fairly disjointed before, with mostly lackluster capstones. Given that we tore them out and rebuilt them with unique goals in mind. Saboteur will be focused on rebuilding stealth and striking foes from behind. Scoundrel will have access to controls and stuns (including a powerful daze that can lock a foe down) while being a very durable fighter. Executioner is focused on using a golden opportunity to deal an incredible amount of spike damage.
Without further ado, let’s look at the changes.
Powers
- Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack.
- Stealth: Now also grants 100% Critical Chance in addition to Combat Advantage.
- First Strike: Damage bonus increased to 33% per rank (up from 5% per rank).
- Whirlwind of Blades: No longer ignores Damage Resistance and Immunity and can be Deflected.
- Whirlwind of Blades: Now increases your Power by 20% per target hit (up from 10%).
- Courage Breaker: Now increases power by 25% (up from 10%).
- Courage Breaker: Damage increased by roughly 15%.
- Deft Strike: Damage increased by roughly 15%.
- Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity.
- Blitz: Damage increased by roughly 20%.
- Blitz: Maximum number of targets increased to 7 (up from 5).
- Path of the Blade: Duration increased to 20 seconds (up from 10).
- Path of the Blade: Damage reduced by roughly 20%.
- Path of the Blade: Tooltip now displays the total damage this power will deal, rather than how much it deals each tick.
- Impact Shot: Base Damage increased by roughly 15%.
- Shadow Strike: Stealth: Daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 3).
- Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks on players.
- Wicked Reminder: Maximum stacks reduced to 3.
- Wicked Reminder: Now reduces the target's defenses by 7% per stack (up from 4%).
- Wicked Reminder: Now has 3 charges and 1 charge is refilled every 5 seconds.
- Wicked Reminder: Damage increased by roughly 10%.
Paragon Paths
- Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Now lasts 15 seconds (up from 7.5).
- Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: Damage reduced by roughly 10%.
- Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Now correctly breaks CC on the teleport.
- Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Initial damage increased by roughly 20%.
- Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Follow up damage increased by 50%.
- Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Tooltip now lists the total damage this power does, instead of the damage the initial throw will do.
- Whisperknife: Hateful Knives: Combat Advantage time increased to 6 seconds base (up from 3).
- Whisperknife: Hateful Knives: Damage increased by roughly 50%.
- WhisperKnife: Razor Action: This power has had its damage increased by roughly 100%. The Damage over Time component tied to Seething Knives now only triggers when the player has points in Seething Knives.
- Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Does not drain Stealth Meter when used from Stealth.
- Master Infiltrator: Gloaming Cut: Now deals up to 25% more damage as the target's HP diminishes (up from 20%). This effect is increased by 25% per rank (up from 5%).
- Master Infiltrator: Impossible to Catch: Stealth: This power no longer makes you immune to all damage but now also increases your damage resistance by 50%.
- Master Infiltrator: Shocking Execution: No longer ignores Damage Immunity effects. It still ignores all sources of damage resistance and cannot be deflected.
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Comments
Saboteur: Sustained DPS focused on being able to reactivate stealth quickly to land hits for increased critical bonus.
T1
- Flashing Blades: Your At Will attacks deal 1/2/3/4/5% more damage while your stealth meter isn't full.
- Shady Preperations: Entering Stealth reduces all your cooldowns by 2/4/6/8/10%.
T2- Knife's Edge: Activating a Daily reduces all of your cooldowns by 3/6/9/12/15%.
T3- Return to Shadows: While behind your target, dealing damage with Encounter Powers refills 10/20/30/40/50% of your Stealth Meter. This effect cannot trigger when leaving stealth.
- Gutterborn's Touch: While behind your target, dealing damage grants you Gutterborn for 6 seconds which causes you to ignore 2/4/6/8/10% more Armor on the target and increases your Power by 1/2/3/4/5%. This effect does not stack.
T4- Ambusher's Haste: While Stealthed you gain a damage bonus of 5/10/15/20/25%. This bonus dimishes as your stealth meter drains out.
- Shadowy Opportunity: When you deal damage from stealth you deal an additional 15/30/45/60/75% of your weapon damage as Piercing Damage. Piercing Damage cannot be deflected and ignores defenses.
T5Scoundrel: A brawler who debuffs foes and can take a lot of damage.
T1
- Roll with the Punches: You have .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% more Deflect Chance.
- Bloody Brawler: You have .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% more Lifesteal.
T2- Survivor: When your HP is below 30% you gain 2/4/6/8/10% increased deflect chance.
T3- Savage Blows: Dealing damage to foes increases your Lifesteal by .2/.4/.6/.6/1% for 3 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times.
- Concussive Strikes: Your Critical Strikes and attacks from behind damage daze foes for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second. Foes can only be dazed this way once every 5 seconds.
T4- Low Blows: You deal 5/10/15/20/25% more damage to foes who are affected by a Control effect.
- Mocking Gesture: You gain 2/4/6/8/10% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
T5Executioner: Uses stealth to try and deal as much damage as possible in a single strike.
T1
- Arterial Cut: You have 3/6/9/12/15% increased Critical Severity while Stealthed.
- Grim Pleasure: Your Critical Strikes increase your Power by 1/2/3/4/5% for 4 seconds.
T2- Vicious Pursuit: Foes you damage take 1/2/3/4/5% more damage from you for 6 seconds. This effect does not stack.
T3- Twisted Grin: When a foe within 30' of you dies you gain Twisted Grin for 10 seconds which improves the damage of your next attack by 2.5/5/7.5/10/12.5%. This bonus is doubled while in stealth.
- Last Moments: You deal 5/10/15/20/25% more damage to foes who are below 40% HP. This threshhold is increased to 70% while you are stealthed.
T4- Exposed Weakness: Stealth also causes you to ignore 5/10/15/20/25% of your target's armor.
- Shadowborn: Entering Stealth grants you 20/40/60/80/100% increased power for your next attack.
T5We need to collect as much feedback as possible on this so we can tweak the feel and effects of the Trickster Rogue in PVE and performance in PVP. Given that, we would like you to categorize and color code your feedback so we can sort it and act on it most effectively! Please use the below format to submit bugs/feedback.
Type: Bug/Feedback (Please only choose one)
Spec: (Please enter the spec that you are providing feedback for here)
Please use “Bold” face text for the Type & Spec then type your feedback in the body of your post. If you are listing a bug please have this text in RED, if you are posting an opinion or feedback please use BLUE.
(Concise Feedback & Screen Shots are much appreciated)
Examples:
Bug: Destroyer
Destroyer’s Purpose didn’t grant stacks while dealing damge.
Feedback: Sentinel
I feel like I don’t have enough tools to stay alive under fire now and it makes tanking too hard.
Please try to play for a few hours to get used to the changes. Thank you again for all your help Adventurers! We look forward to hearing back from you!
Chris “Gentleman_Crush” Meyer
Trickster Rogue: Dodge: Rogues now roll 50% farther when dodging in combat and their dodge cost has been reduced to 30% of their stamina (down from 50%).
Trickster Rogue: First Strike: Now provides 30% bonus damage at rank 1 (down from 33%) and provides an additional 15% when ranking it up (down from 33%).
Trickster Rogue: Dazing Strike: Now always activates at the same speed as stealth and should hit targets far more consistently.
Trickster Rogue: Stealth: Dazing Strike: Now strikes in a large cone in front of you.
Trickster Rogue: Path of the Blade: Now hits 3 targets each tick (up from 1) and deals roughly 33% of its original damage.
Trickster Rogue: Deft Strike: Now slows targets for 80% (up from 60%) for 5 seconds (up from 3 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Wicked Reminder: Now correctly stacks to 3 (instead of 5).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Disheartening Strike: This power has now been correctly reduced by 10% instead of 60%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: The first portion of this power can now be activated while moving. The followup portion of this power now activates substantially faster.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Vengeance's Pursuit: Cooldown reduced to 12 seconds (down from 16).
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Razor Action: Damage increased by a further 200%.
Trickster Rogue: Whisperknife: Advantageous Position: Now provides 20% resistance (up from 10%) and now lasts for 2 seconds per rank (up from 1).
Trickster Rogue: Sabotuer: Shady Preparations: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: Knife's Edge: No longer incorrectly affects Artifacts and other non player powers.
Trickster Rogue: Saboteur: One with the Shadows: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Concussive Strikes: Now dazes the target for .5/1/1.5/2/2.5 seconds (up from .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second)
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Base daze increased to 4 seconds (up from 2 seconds). Total maximum increased to 6 seconds (up from 4 seconds).
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Now also grants 25% increased move speed.
Trickster Rogue: Scoundrel: Skull Cracker: Cooldown reduced to 15 seconds (down from 20).
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Shadow of Demise can no longer activate itself and can only be applied to a single target.
Trickster Rogue: Executioner: Shadow of Demise: Now correctly only triggers on Encounter Powers.
Ok, done.
From reading the skills I'm worried that the raise in damage might not be enough for the TR to be useful in dungeons again and compensate for the loss of both ITC and perma stealth. But I would have to see how it is affected by feats, executioner feats look pretty interesting and powerful.
Also I REALLY wanted to see changes to make the playstyle more dynamic, we still have just 2 dodges and most of our most powerful skills still have long cooldowns (more than 12 secs) I know some feats reduce cooldowns, but 10% won't really make a difference.
Is this on preview already? if not when will be able to test it?
I know, HP, defense boost etc is what is needed. Will wait to test though.
Although I don't think perma stealth TRs were overpowered last module by any means, I agree with this line of thought of limiting your opponent's interactivity.
If TRs became similar to module 2 CWs, then this change will have been a success based on the goals
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
We'll see after testing. Remember, they do not want TRs to go into stealth as their escape-from-jail-free card. They want TRs to be glass cannon, comparable to module 2 CWs. Stealth is merely a means to compensate for their lack of range. The two classes technically now do the same thing: burst down the opponent while being squishy.
Again, I am not saying you are completely wrong or right, but I need to see this first.
VP mark needs to last longer than 5 seconds... more like 10-15... either that or the CD should be <10 sec.
Scoundrel capstone daze in PvP is going to stay 2 sec with a max of 4? or will it be like 1 + 1?
Lashing blade really needs a short CD if missed (like GWF takedown).
PotB needs to strike multiple targets... especially now that you've nerfed damage.
I will post more detailed breakdown when I've had time to test.
Please make Vengeace's pursuit have no cooldown like before or at least 4 seconds (Like old Wicked reminder) OR have it have charges.
Dang I'm so excited to try these out
Skillful infiltrator should have a much higher deflect chance with these changes. Similar to what the HR has.
Smoke bomb needs updated. Right now its the last encounter thats unlocked but is easy to dodge out of in pvp, doesn't last long and has far too high a cooldown. Maybe keep it the same way as it is just now but reduce the cooldown to 7 seconds or make it last longer and deal damage with a quicker cc activation so its harder to dodge out of. Or make it lower damage resistance so it works as a debuff in pvp and pve.
Lashing Blade: Stealth: Now strikes with 50% increased Critical Severity. - :eek:
Path of the Blade: Damage reduced by roughly 20%. -Kind of disappointing, I used it on my PvP TR as a DoT damager and it was good, but longer duration with less power make it not as good for PvP. Path of the Blade not gaining weapon enchantments is disappointing.
My First sight on trees:
Saboteur - Flashing Blades won't benefit them too much. No survivability and no damage out of stealth. Shady Preperations helps staying stealthy. Knife's Edge - Not too useful. TRs don't have high action point gain anyway. Both of the T3s will only work on rare occasions or when using Deft Strike, at least in my opinion. T4 and T5 help with damage out of stealth, but since At Wills drain Stealth, I'm guessing it's going to be some sort of Burst-Stealth Rotation-Burst-etc.
Scoundrel - Makes a tanky TR which looks kind of strange to me, it might be worth testing but I'm thinking about long long dazes for opponents, the problem is daze is freaking useless and you can hardly land your at-wills when target is dazed because it can just move out of the way.
Executioner - I am sure most of the TRs will pick this tree. Arterial Cut is good. Grim Pleasure is good. Vicious Pursuit is good. Twisted Grin is kind of strange. Last Moments is good. Exposed Weakness is good. Shadowborn is crazy. Shadow of Demise is also crazy, at least for PvP.
Anyway, in my opinion, all the trees are an improvement, but Executioner looks cheesy, Scoundrel looks kind of annoying to play as and annoying to play against, And Saboteur will require some testing but is probably not really useful for PvE.
Do you have the slightest idea just how much damage you gave me? Combine what I quoted, think about 9k power, and tell me just which class can not be one-shot by a +50% crit. sev. + 15% CA Lashing Blade at 18k power. Or which mobs won't be decimated by 7 knives (Blitz) at +20% damage from 18k power... seriously, whoever whines about this is trolling big time. You're turning TRs into GWF-CWs and you'll start to nerf them as soon as you see everybody else either quit the game or turn to TRs.
EDIT: EVEN BETTER! go stealth, do a nice Whirlwind in the middle of a party with 100% power from First Strike, go back in stealth and give whoever's left standing a nice Lashing Blade at double the power in case you hit all 5 targets with the Whirlwind! Hell! If more than one is left standing, Blitz them to hell with that 20% extra damage and the double power!
You took away some of our damage and unwillingly gave us perma stealth last time you worked on us, but this time you're allowing us to go around 1-2-shooting people. While this'll work great in PvE, PvP will be crawling with TRs... the rest won't even try anymore.
I really don't mind, since my main is an Executioner, but you'll be getting some terrible whining on this, mark my words.
Stealth: Using At Wills while Stealthed now drains 15% of your Stealth Meter per attack. So you'll only be in Stealth for the first six strikes of Duelist Flurry?
I'll reserve further comment after playing the new changes.
After reading this, and the DC's changes you may wanna consider some more Moderators. I have a feeling this is going to blow up.
Branch Lead
Also, 100% bonus damage on first strike feature plus lashing blade with 50% more severity? What the hell? Anyone who's by themselves with no ally around is going to just die right off the bat without warning. Making TRs WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too OP in a 1v1. That TR gets their stealth back, you revive and try to defend your node again by yourself and the same thing will happen.
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
Piercing damage AGAIN?? Piercing Blade, Assailing Force, and glyphs already showed that piercing damage should never have existed. You guy NEVER LEARN.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Asha-DC(Faithful-Anointed Champion)
Vilgefortz-CW(Thaumaturge-balance)
So, to address this and nip it in the bud.
This feat is Piercing Damage because it should not be subject to damage resistance *twice*.
It looks for damage you actually deal to the target (after armor penetration and resistance have done their thing). If this feat *wasn't* piercing damage it would get resisted again and be very difficult to balance (because it would disproportionately increase the value of Arpen for executioner rogues).
Lets try and keep the conversation civil, and avoid the borderline dev bashing, okay?
I'm seeing a HUGE boost to alpha burst damage...which is a problem since that's why TRs got the nerf bat originally. But yeah...+100% damage first strike, auto-critting, +50% severity stealth lashing blade, I think we may be welcoming back the one-shot TRs.
Okay, Panic.
The damage boosts are nice. But now rogues virtually have no survivability. I would had much rathered VP been buffed up closer to Itc than itc nerfed down to it.
What I much rather have, is a way to feat to have the damage bonus from stealth decreased in turn to not have the stealth be drained by at will attacks. Kind of like how CW's have a feat to boost thier AOE by sacrificing single target damage. I didnt see such a feat unless I missed it.
I'd like that option to be able to specialize in moving about in stealth for ultility rather than damage. While on the other side of the spectrum, not speccing in that feat will give them the damage they have the damage proposed from stealth but it drains quickly when using at wills.
Edit: After looking through the feats a second time. Some of those feats does help a little in this aspect. I never was one to try and be in full stealth the entire time. Only some of the time, didnt really like that. Those feats help with that, and actually helps semi perma stealthers perform good, but stopping the perma stealth assaulters.
So with those feats alone. I like the subtley styles of play.
Im conflicted with Lashing Blade. Im kind of joyed to see it gain that, but also a bit weary, as i remember when Lashing Blade was one shotting people quite easily. And then I imagine people with a vorpal enchantment. I was going to question if Lashing Blade gets the garranteed crit still, but remember all attacks from stealth now has full crit chances. In addition to the first strike feature, this seems like this is on dangerous ground of de ja vu.
Im fine with path of the blade, since its duration is virtually doubled. It actually does more damage now since its damage is decreased by 20% but its duration doubled.
Im also very glad Wicked Reminder will finally work. Though its application, Im wondering if Wicked Reminder is throwing its stacks on full from stealth, its damage is applied as piercing damage in addition from stealth. Since its not a very strong power at all really. Also since it has charges now, will those charges work the same way as Impact shots charges? (meaning you essentially get a free charge regardless of how many you have out of stealth or those charges are shared? )
Even with the change to vengence pursuit, I still dont like it. Even if the CC break works, its really funky to use appropriately and skillfully. If Wicked Reminder didnt already get changed to charges, I'd rather have that encounter with like two charges and just get rid of the damage boost it attained. As no one really actually used this encounter for its damage anyway. ( why bother when you can just use deft strike, which does more damage anyway and more reliable)
Take note, all of this is just my analysis of the information. Currently patching preview so i can get to testing some of this stuff.
Yep, I am very thankful I decided to wait to get mine. It really is a shame though, anticipating and landing DF was one of the things that made the class fun because it required more than just spamming like every other skill.
But the fair side of me is saying if you see the numbers I put out tomorrow a Nerf would probably be in order
but then all the other classes would need a nerf to