I know I am posting this again, but I think this sums up both sides of the argument for the Greed Runs.
I think there is a time and a place for Greed Runs. When there is a new lvl 60, like me, who gets kicked for needing on an item that was an upgrade, because some 20k gs GWF decided he wants AD, that is too far. And the chest excuse isn't enough because there are only two times a day that the Dungeon Delves is up, and a dungeon takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to run. A new lvl 60 doesn't have the money for the key to the DD chest at the end, so he can only get it when the DD event is going. The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
On the other hand, I have no problem with Greed Runs when the idea is agreed upon by EVERYONE in the group, and isn't forced. At that point you either ask in the beginning of a dungeon, and wait to see how many people are ok with it, or advertise in chat that you want to put together a Greed Run.
So to sum up your argument, you need to tell the party members what the loot rules are at the beginning?
Wrong. 20% equal chance for everybody would be more fair to the different goals of everyone in the party.
Wrong. 21k characters have different needs to 11k characters in Gauntlgrym, and the twisted perversion of "fair" that some people have has no business in an AD&D game.
The thread is about FORCING greed runs on people without full agreement at the start, and also kicking people before the roll at the end and other similarly obnoxious practices associated with this level of selfishness and immaturity.
Joining an LFG GRRRREEEDDDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!! group is fine - no one cares what you do or how selfish you are. People then Needing on good drops is up to that Party to deal with. That is not really what this thread is about.
People who have a lot of Legendary and Artifact gear do not need those drops anyway, except to Salvage or Trade on the AH. So they should never be pugging in the first place. Form a GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! group and screw each other over as much as you like.
But stop polluting the atmosphere of the entire game and corrupting the spirit of the game all the way down to level 12 characters with a 235 GS. It is a contagion that needs to be eradicated with fire.
Changing the Text on the Buttons for the Loot System to be EQUAL CHANCE and CLASS-SPECIFIC does nothing to alter the fact that it is simply NEED or GREED, and the intent of the design is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you don't care.
The dice then rolls and you take your chance.
Farm as many Epic dungeons as you like, if you have nothing better to do with your time, but take your chances with the RNG like everyone else.
As intended.
In fact, the Loot Rules can be set by the party leader - I always set them to NEED or GREED on blues and above - but I don't think it works, as GREENS keep coming up as well, when you should just be able to pick them up without blocking out the screen.
THAT is what needs fixing before they start messing about with the text on the buttons, which is never going to happen.
Wrong. 21k characters have different needs to 11k characters in Gauntlgrym, and the twisted perversion of "fair" that some people have has no business in an AD&D game.
The thread is about FORCING greed runs on people without full agreement at the start, and also kicking people before the roll at the end and other similarly obnoxious practices associated with this level of selfishness and immaturity.
For you to say a 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYONE rule is a twisted perversion and your version isn't is not a very smart statement to make.
Furthermore, this thread is not forcing greed runs on anyone. Like I said, agreements should be made at the start of the party. If someone disagrees with it, the party disbands and everyone can go look for a new one. Now if a players agrees to a greed run but still foolishly needs on an item, then the party leader has the blessing to kick said hooligan.
Likewise, you cannot force other people do participate in your Need runs if they do not agree to the ruleset (for good reasons).
well I am all for greed runs and that is cos you don't need anything that drop from bosses and aren't bop you can pretty much get everything from the chests and sell those boe items you don't need on AH, and who can tell that you don't have better equip in bank/inventory and switched to crappy one just for dungeons to be able to need on things cos you "don't have better"
anyway, I find a solution for this problem, I posted it in another thread along with other ideas, here it is
DEDICATED GREED RUN
I think many players would welcome option to make the group unable to roll "Need" on anything. I would suggest this - party leader may evoke "Greed run" on the beginning of dungeon. All players must agree (confirm pop up window like when lfg is on) to enforce this. From that moment on players can only greed or pass on all loot and it last until the dungeon is finished.
There is another positive effect to this - since none could "ninja" items you could turn off Vote kick while looting is ongoing and during boss fight and 5-10 seconds after minor boss is dead and disable the kicking after final boss is dead (last until all players leave dungeon) to prevent 3 or 4 players from same guild/friends kick the rest if something interesting drop (happened to me several times in past two months, it looks like new trend)
DEDICATED GREED RUN
I think many players would welcome option to make the group unable to roll "Need" on anything. I would suggest this - party leader may evoke "Greed run" on the beginning of dungeon. All players must agree (confirm pop up window like when lfg is on) to enforce this. From that moment on players can only greed or pass on all loot and it last until the dungeon is finished.
There is another positive effect to this - since none could "ninja" items you could turn off Vote kick while looting is ongoing and during boss fight and 5-10 seconds after minor boss is dead and disable the kicking after final boss is dead (last until all players leave dungeon) to prevent 3 or 4 players from same guild/friends kick the rest if something interesting drop (happened to me several times in past two months, it looks like new trend)
I am in favor of having an option to make a Dedicated Greed Run. Every single party member must accept it at the beginning or it is not invoked.
No excuses about how this is immoral or greedy or any of that junk. Everyone gets 20% chance at the final loot.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
And to everyone explaining/defending the greed approach -
I'm sorry but if you play to "get rewarded for your time", maybe you should do something else. Like go play football, the weather is nice :P
Games are a past time activity, not a job.
That is a very self centered approach.
To make it very simple if you roll need on something you are deciding that item is yours; no care given to the time and effort the other players have put forth.
If you get a respectful group and communicate clearly that you would like to need on a specific drop you may get at the end of the dungeon I don't necessarilly believe they'd agree, remember these are not your friends they are fellow players who have their own agendas as well, but at least get that sorted in the beginning because you are all but guaranteed to be kicked for needing on big ticket items if the rest of the party expects you to greed.
They are not running the dungeon for you. They are running the dungeon with you. And it doesn't even have to be exclusive to people who are fully geared. If a big ticket item drops and I am getting impatient about getting my own gear from the chest (which should be your preferred method) then by being able to get a big ticket item I can sell it and use the proceeds to get my own gear...
It's fair. Plain and simple.
Even in my own guild I beg people to be fair to the group. We do allow people to need on gear if they plan on equipping it (fat chance in heck I would trust a pug that they aren't actually being greedy for not using the greed button) but doing so is really just being impatient.
After you get your gear you'll still be running dungeons. I would rather split the proceeds from big ticket drops and have you earn the AD to buy it from the AH if you don't get the item from the chest in short order than tell four guild members that instead of everybody getting 100K AD they are getting 0 AD because a member of the guild decides they don't want to run the dungeon a few more times.
So yes, we come back full circle to it being you that is not being considerate and self centered. People aren't doing dungeons out of the kindness of their heart. They have their own goals and their own wants. Just because the item you want drops doesn't mean it's right to stick your tongue out and take it.
The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
On the contrary don't let it discourage the geared players who are also important to the game. They're here to make progress too and not here to give random pugs handouts and not be rewarded when they'll never see them again, or know if that pug intends to continue playing. The thing is the older content is less rewarding due to it being old and new content was never rewarding and so if we have people taking all of the loot themselves there's not much else to do to actually make AD. It's to the point that I practically don't run any skrimishes or dungeons despite me previously running many hundreds of dungeons because it's just not worth it. If you all greed as an unpopular class then you have the chance to get something worth more than your drop. Idk why some people still bother with the limited AD they can make making the only real thing to do is dailiezzz...
And seriously, just get your gear from the chest. Buying blues from the AH is cheap, you can get t2 from gg or pvp (even if you get thrashed for pvp) with relative ease and it's bound from. You're more likely to get it from the chest than the boss drop and from the chest you team mates won't be punished for helping you. If you all greed you still have the same chance of winning something and if it's the wrong piece, you can sell or trade it and it will be fair for everyone. I'd say it'd be better for the needers that aren't ninjas since they can actually earn AD which they're very short of and need a lot and can get the set piece for free from the chest.
On the other hand, I have no problem with Greed Runs when the idea is agreed upon by EVERYONE in the group, and isn't forced. At that point you either ask in the beginning of a dungeon, and wait to see how many people are ok with it, or advertise in chat that you want to put together a Greed Run.
Sure but if you don't answer to someone asking if it's greed then expect to be kicked. Also if you need when nothing at all has been said you could very well be kicked too if you don't make sure the team is alright with it. On the other side if nothing is said, it's very well possible you'll be ninjad.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
But if you think im going to do a random pug run, and say "Need it" if you need it then you got another thing coming, i dont let no one take advantage of my generosity
I said that once. The guy needed on everything...
When we confronted him about it his response was classic. "I need AD."
"WTH, and we don't?" was our response.
And then somehow we were the bad guys. He did ask what the loot rules were but apparently we were wrong in assuming nobody would be daft enough to think needing money was a "need" for the item. We don't need money or anything, we're just here to pass the time because we have nothing better to do...I think we finished the run with him but ugh I was fuming and I have never given pugs the leniency or benefit of the doubt since....
clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited October 2014
This debate clearly does not want to stop, so let me add my two cents worth. I remember that doing one of my first dungeons, I picked need at the end but I did so without knowing what greed/need was exactly about. In the chest were some T2 helmets, while I was still deciding what I should pick, I was kicked, afterwards I found out about the unwritten rule that people should never pick need. I wonder how many others have fallen victim to kick because of this unwritten rule they were not even aware of. Also how pervasive is this rule, I have done many PUG dungeons where it was not assumed that one cannot pick need (it seems that the more non English speaking players in the party, the more the greed rule is not adhered to).
I don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that if you break the greed rule when upfront this was specified, then you will be in trouble. I am however in the need camp when it comes to PUGS, this is what the game has provided, if you want to farm diamonds then do so with a guild or the legit channel, there are those that want to play dungeons for the fun and there are those that do not understand or accept your rules. So please lets not try impose this fun destroying rule on every single player. So going back to the opening post, the way to break this greed mentality is to say need at the start of the dungeon, hopefully if enough do this it will no longer be a taboo to pick need.
To make it very simple if you roll need on something you are deciding that item is yours; no care given to the time and effort the other players have put forth.
If you get a respectful group and communicate clearly that you would like to need on a specific drop you may get at the end of the dungeon I don't necessarilly believe they'd agree, remember these are not your friends they are fellow players who have their own agendas as well, but at least get that sorted in the beginning because you are all but guaranteed to be kicked for needing on big ticket items if the rest of the party expects you to greed.
They are not running the dungeon for you. They are running the dungeon with you. And it doesn't even have to be exclusive to people who are fully geared. If a big ticket item drops and I am getting impatient about getting my own gear from the chest (which should be your preferred method) then by being able to get a big ticket item I can sell it and use the proceeds to get my own gear...
It's fair. Plain and simple.
Even in my own guild I beg people to be fair to the group. We do allow people to need on gear if they plan on equipping it (fat chance in heck I would trust a pug that they aren't actually being greedy for not using the greed button) but doing so is really just being impatient.
After you get your gear you'll still be running dungeons. I would rather split the proceeds from big ticket drops and have you earn the AD to buy it from the AH if you don't get the item from the chest in short order than tell four guild members that instead of everybody getting 100K AD they are getting 0 AD because a member of the guild decides they don't want to run the dungeon a few more times.
So yes, we come back full circle to it being you that is not being considerate and self centered. People aren't doing dungeons out of the kindness of their heart. They have their own goals and their own wants. Just because the item you want drops doesn't mean it's right to stick your tongue out and take it.
Need is the real greed button.
I'll repeat what what I said and you quoted: games are for fun, time and effort is irrelevant for a game. Which makes all your explanations irrelevant.
I also remembered something. During open beta (maybe for some time after launch also) you could roll whatever and people were complaining about others needing on items their class cant use. Cryptic changed that, now all those exploiters try to force everyone else use the old "fair" system.
On a personal note: I reply to you because you quoted and replied directly. But its for everyone who still defends this twisted fairness.
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited October 2014
Greed is letting an RNG system decide who gets the drop after the drop appears, Need is letting an RNG system decide who gets the drop before it appears (unless there are more people that can need). If loot tables are equally "spaced" over classes there is no real difference. Do we know if that´s the case or not?
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
I know I am posting this again, but I think this sums up both sides of the argument for the Greed Runs.
I think there is a time and a place for Greed Runs. When there is a new lvl 60, like me, who gets kicked for needing on an item that was an upgrade, because some 20k gs GWF decided he wants AD, that is too far. And the chest excuse isn't enough because there are only two times a day that the Dungeon Delves is up, and a dungeon takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to run. A new lvl 60 doesn't have the money for the key to the DD chest at the end, so he can only get it when the DD event is going. The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
On the other hand, I have no problem with Greed Runs when the idea is agreed upon by EVERYONE in the group, and isn't forced. At that point you either ask in the beginning of a dungeon, and wait to see how many people are ok with it, or advertise in chat that you want to put together a Greed Run.
I understand this perspective, and it feels like it is hard to gear up, but honestly man, you will need the AD more than the gear. If you sell the BOE gear and wait to get your BOP gear from the chest, you will improve your character faster. Trust me on this. Don't waste good economic opportunities by equipping something you can sell.
So in your opinion, people playing a less popular class should be punished for it? And I don't know if you're aware of it, but we're speaking about a difference of about at least 300k between a DC armor and a CW armor, You seriously think this could be made up by a few more items you may get? (which isn't even true, because the queue works GF/DC/3*dps class, and with 5 dps classes - HR, GWF,CW, TR and warlock all count as dps class - you're well likely to be the only one of your class).
What you're saying is "You're playing a less popular class, so you earnt to progress slower than other players in this game." I don't think this is fair.
To make it very simple if you roll need on something you are deciding that item is yours; no care given to the time and effort the other players have put forth.
If you get a respectful group and communicate clearly that you would like to need on a specific drop you may get at the end of the dungeon i don't necessarilly believe they'd agree, remember these are not your friends they are fellow players who have their own agendas as well, but at least get that sorted in the beginning because you are all but guaranteed to be kicked for needing on big ticket items if the rest of the party expects you to greed.
They are not running the dungeon for you. They are running the dungeon with you. And it doesn't even have to be exclusive to people who are fully geared. If a big ticket item drops and i am getting impatient about getting my own gear from the chest (which should be your preferred method) then by being able to get a big ticket item i can sell it and use the proceeds to get my own gear...
It's fair. Plain and simple.
Even in my own guild i beg people to be fair to the group. We do allow people to need on gear if they plan on equipping it (fat chance in heck i would trust a pug that they aren't actually being greedy for not using the greed button) but doing so is really just being impatient.
After you get your gear you'll still be running dungeons. I would rather split the proceeds from big ticket drops and have you earn the ad to buy it from the ah if you don't get the item from the chest in short order than tell four guild members that instead of everybody getting 100k ad they are getting 0 ad because a member of the guild decides they don't want to run the dungeon a few more times.
So yes, we come back full circle to it being you that is not being considerate and self centered. People aren't doing dungeons out of the kindness of their heart. They have their own goals and their own wants. Just because the item you want drops doesn't mean it's right to stick your tongue out and take it.
On a personal note: I reply to you because you quoted and replied directly. But its for everyone who still defends this twisted fairness.
How is it twisted? No-one knows what will drop before hand. How is an equal chance for everyone twisted? You can't get any fairer. Loot on greed runs is distributed completely equally and fairly depending on the die you rolled. It's easy for newbies to overlook the value of the boe drops over the chest bop items. If the chest was boe it probably wouldn't matter as much, everyone would still be rewarded for their efforts and people who generally need the item can do so without taking pretty much the entire runs profit away from the team. However it's not like that.
I personally think someone believing their time and reward is more important than the rest of the team selfish.
From reading this entire thread what it seems to come down to is the community is paranoid as hell and only cares about the cash. No one wants to take the off chance that someone will either sell or use something they needed on, and being honest, its a bit disturbing.
Greed on all epic items is fair. Need on the other hand is unfair to unpopular classes and their worthless drops.
games are for fun, time and effort is irrelevant for a game. Which makes all your explanations irrelevant.
That has to be the dumbest thing i have ever read in a mmo forum. LOL. If time and effort are irrelevant, why do you even need on an item? Just pass! You know, the effort gearing up is irrelevant, isnt it?
Gosh, thats so stupid, sorry, but it is.
Gosh, I skimmed these posts for a quote that summed it all up for me, but for the life of me I can't find it now, it was something to the effect that, this person states, so they are supposed to run a dungeon with this preferred Greed system, Roll for loot that they actually need but someone else gets it, only to see it on the AH after the dungeon, to buy it from the person they were just in the dungeon with.
And this suggestion about items being bound and not being able to sell, give it to an alt, or.... salvage that is just wrong in so many ways.
I don't want to have to run a dungeon a gazillion times just hoping to win a roll so I can gear up, or sell on the AH to get my.. A.D. either, and I sure as heck don't want to buy my item on the AH from the person I just got done finishing the dungeon with either.
The way I look at it, weather it's a guild run, P.U.G., or Queue, everyone is in it together, everyone should get something for their involvement/time spent. If your doing a T1/T2/T3 etc., then purples should drop for everyone ( Whatever They May Be ) in the end chest to do with what they please.
If they want to have a special drop(s) then do it the same as they do in the Sword Coast Adventures when you log in, you get to roll the Twenty-Sided, well why can't the same be done for those mini boss special drops, Have the Gold Twenty Die come on the screen for each character in the party, it could be high roll wins, low roll, whatever the code decides for someone to receive that drop. Point being the game is in control of it and not set by party leader or any CP settings from your character options
Just thoughts here.... but again I don't want to have to run something multiple times exponentially just to gear up or get my A.D. either.
Cheers, W.W.
P.S.
DDO had a nice console Command for parties, norms or raids, that if a person wished they could put something they got up for roll themselves and specify the roll dynamic, Eg. /roll d20, /roll d100, /roll d1000, if they wanted to. I thought that was a nice option to have, as they were in control of what they wanted to do with the item.
I'm sure it will get sorted out, sure this high ticket loot will go up on the AH and that s fine, but if sellers want to sell, there has to be something in place to allow the up and coming people to be able to get their AD at a reasonable rate to be able to afford the price gouging in this economy. And if they can't get it honestly in the game it will be just more people in game using the Gold Sellers, and other dis-honest methods to acquire what they need.
How is it twisted? No-one knows what will drop before hand. How is an equal chance for everyone twisted? You can't get any fairer. Loot on greed runs is distributed completely equally and fairly depending on the die you rolled. It's easy for newbies to overlook the value of the boe drops over the chest bop items. If the chest was boe it probably wouldn't matter as much, everyone would still be rewarded for their efforts and people who generally need the item can do so without taking pretty much the entire runs profit away from the team. However it's not like that.
I personally think someone believing their time and reward is more important than the rest of the team selfish.
This is what this thread about. Forcing someone to greed on an item he needs just so you can sell it and call it fair, is twisted.
Greed on all epic items is fair. Need on the other hand is unfair to unpopular classes and their worthless drops.
That has to be the dumbest thing i have ever read in a mmo forum. LOL. If time and effort are irrelevant, why do you even need on an item? Just pass! You know, the effort gearing up is irrelevant, isnt it?
Gosh, thats so stupid, sorry, but it is.
And now we moved to personal insults. I'm not even going to respond to your opinion, you deserve a ban.
So basically your time is worth more than everyone elses? If you don't pass on other set pieces that drop then that's basically what you're saying.
I greed or pass on everything else. And that shouldn't matter anyway: If you need in something, it doesn't matter if I greed or pass because you'll get it anyway. If you don't need, you shouldn't care what I roll because you dont really need it. If I don't need an item (need = I want to use it) I don't care what everyone else rolls.
Forcing someone to greed on an item he needs just so you can sell it and call it fair, is twisted.
Fairly a straw puppet don't you think?
If you get your party to agree on a need run,
I can't imagine anyone will force you
to greed when suddenly your loot drops.
The point is most runs are greed runs.
You don't get to make the rules,
the party does, by majority.
Ajust or find another party.
If the majority wants to play a different way,
who are you to say otherwise?
If the majority agrees with your need,
then how did you get kicked?
At the start of any pug run I will always
let people know 'greed on epics'.
If you disagree we can talk, we are humans after all.
Often I allow a need on your drop for a pass on anything else.
If you don't protest I will assume 'agree'.
From here on if you need you are a ninja.
If its crappy loot you took I'll first ask you
to hand it over to someone of your choice who greeded.
I dont care it wont be me, I just want a real apolagy.
You dont do that or if it's valuable you get a kick.
Seems you confuse the reason why there are no/few need runs
with the reason why there are plenty greed runs. Who cares why I prefer
greed runs, what really bothers you is why there are no need runs.
When it is in your best interest to do need runs, you are awfully weak.
Teams of such players probably wont even finish the dungeon,
and if they do you will take a multifold of the normal time.
When you finally get pissed by the wipes or not finding teams at all,
you start joining greed runs, because they are not only to finish it,
they do it smoothly and explain you how the dungeon works doing it.
You get experience, a chest drop, and a fair chance to make some decent ad,
which is more then you would get on a failed run. Most probably you're
just a drag on the team, but who cares as long as I get treated with respect,
get my fair share of the loot and have some fun,
I'll take any class any gearscore.
Because the runs are so much smoother you get geared in no-time and suddenly
there is nothing to need on anymore for you. As fast as you are geared however,
you see the light and change in a greed-advocate yourself. This happened
to virtually every well meaning player I know who protested greed runs.
Thats not really something to be ashamed of, its called subjectivity.
Whatever 'truth' is more in your advantage will always seem more truthfull
then anything else. All human minds work this way.
The real answer why there are no, or few, runs who rig the system to
your advantage is because at the point you are in the game, you bring nothing
to the table. Beggars aint choosers.
I have one question for the Diehard Greed Community... Why not use the system the Developers put in place for you i believe the option is called "Round Robbin". That would ensure your "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" while not forcing the need this greed that drama. I don't think anyone cares about the "Greed Runs" people do, the problem is that this Greed disease is infecting the community to the point where people in the que and people who have not asked nor stated any loot rolls, that greed is conceived as "Standard Looting Rules". Thus resulting in massive amounts of kicks of players who either don't know you made up rules or just are taking to long to roll, that is the real issue. So now the population is so infected by this that they expect people to ask at the entrance to a run, and if you don't ask you "Deserve a kicking", which is another player induced rule that people are expected to psychically just know. Not just that but if you do ask the group and they don't answer or state its a greed run then you should leave the group and reque, people who say that must never use the que option because they want new players who are expecting to need on items to wait for and hour plus to get into a group so they can leave and re que, I'm sorry but that is just ridiculous. You don't realize it but the greed runs are hurting the non elitist community. Oh and for those of you with the we all need AD well if you really think about the content of the game all you really need is T2 gear and r7's at most and 3 purple level artifacts to complete all game content and that's over doing it a little. No one Needs Artifact Gear, Legendary Artifacts, Upgraded Companions, R8-10 Enchants, these are all just excessive desires, its like millionaires saying they need a Bentley, sure maybe they don't have one and that is the next thing in their car progression but do they really need it? Personally I have never been in a situation to need gear from a boss drop because while i was gearing my current 3 chars it just so happened that the gear never dropped, but i have been kicked due to taking to long to roll and for just playing a class when their gear drop before anyone even looted it, and both times were in que and i didn't even have enough time to see what was in the DD chest. If you want "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" just do Round Robbin and quit infecting the community with player created rules that are destroying the que system, and for people who say join a guild que with people you know that isn't an option for everyone. If you really think about it the people who enforce greed rules with under geared chars are saying that overpowering my char is more important then you using the gear that was intended for you to use.
If you really think about it the people who enforce greed rules with under geared chars are saying that overpowering my char is just as important then you using the gear that was intended for you to use.
ftfy. It's already been stated why need isn't entirely equal. I've geared 8 toons without needing to need on such loot, I'm sure other people can handle gearing theirs up too. Though I have needed on t1s before when the rules weren't clear when I didn't know what was considered standard though others may have needed other stuff in those runs too. I've only bothered with actual t1s for my DC though and that was after getting my t2 set.
I'm not denying that kicking someone for needing for not knowing any better is uncalled for. But greed is the completely equal way. We're stuck farming these old dungeons, the least we can do is give everyone on average the same reward value wise. Well I'm not stuck doing it, but for the rest of you who still bother.
ftfy. It's already been stated why need isn't entirely equal. I've geared 8 toons without needing to need on such loot, I'm sure other people can handle gearing theirs up too. Though I have needed on t1s before when the rules weren't clear when I didn't know what was considered standard though others may have needed other stuff in those runs too. I've only bothered with actual t1s for my DC though and that was after getting my t2 set.
I'm not denying that kicking someone for needing for not knowing any better is uncalled for. But greed is the completely equal way. We're stuck farming these old dungeons, the least we can do is give everyone on average the same reward value wise. Well I'm not stuck doing it, but for the rest of you who still bother.
Why not use the system the Developers put in place for you i believe the option is called "Round Robbin". That would ensure your "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" while not forcing the need this greed that drama.
Why not use the system the Developers put in place for you i believe the option is called "Round Robbin". That would ensure your "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" while not forcing the need this greed that drama.
Still haven't answered my question...
Well that might be a nice idea.
Next time you see someone asking 'greed run?' propose that.
After confirming mechanics I would agree.
Convert a soul at a time.
But TALK.
I dont know much about the dev's intend,
but what I do know is they made a multiplayer game,
not a single player one, so I'm pretty sure
they want us to play together, not solo.
Dont just ignore others because you disagree,
go your own way and be suprised if people get upset.
Could you please now respond to frishter.
What he basicly said is your statement is actually a double statement,
each with an own answer.
Kicking someone out of the blue who is unaware of rules is
entirely differrent then kicking someone who did know but
needed anyway.
The first is inexcusable, the second disserved.
Nobody disagrees with the first,
so please argue only against the second.
I have one question for the Diehard Greed Community... Why not use the system the Developers put in place for you i believe the option is called "Round Robbin".
More people probably would if the dungeon queues weren't so dodgy about insisting on setting the need/greed loot rolls for you.
Whatever rules party leader has set up work perfectly if entering a heroic through the door.
Using the queue, nobody seems to be able to figure out how to get their settings to stay to what they've set them at.
More people probably would if the dungeon queues weren't so dodgy about insisting on setting the need/greed loot rolls for you.
Whatever rules party leader has set up work perfectly if entering a heroic through the door.
Using the queue, nobody seems to be able to figure out how to get their settings to stay to what they've set them at.
yeah right, if the group leader could change loot system, lots of them would just do it before final boss die and change it to "group leader decide" and take whatever loot.
if you make your own group you can decide what loot system is on, but in LFG system it has to be set cos all of those players are equal and party leader who is picked randomly or by some hidden mechanics shouldn't have any power that other players doesn't have and that's why party leader can't kick or invite whoever she/he want
This is what this thread about. Forcing someone to greed on an item he needs just so you can sell it and call it fair, is twisted.
And now we moved to personal insults. I'm not even going to respond to your opinion, you deserve a ban.
You think that people will stop grinding a dungeon once they get the item they 'need'?
No, they will still run pug groups and 'need' on the same item and sell it on AH as you are accusing people who 'greed' of doing.
The difference being that 'greed' gives everyone a fair chance, while 'need' just gives the item to the same guy who just did ten runs and sold every drop he 'needed' on.
Endorsing 'need' over 'greed' means you have absolute trust in pugs to only 'need' on items they actually have need of, instead of playing classes with high cost equip so they can need on it and sell it in AH.
Endorsing 'greed' over need says you don't give a rat's *** about trusting your fellow pug, and would rather have a 20% across the board chance for ALL party members to get the drop. Thus eliminating the pugs that ninja(need) their high cost items to sell on AH (as you are saying only happens in Greed runs).
Comments
So to sum up your argument, you need to tell the party members what the loot rules are at the beginning?
Wrong. 21k characters have different needs to 11k characters in Gauntlgrym, and the twisted perversion of "fair" that some people have has no business in an AD&D game.
The thread is about FORCING greed runs on people without full agreement at the start, and also kicking people before the roll at the end and other similarly obnoxious practices associated with this level of selfishness and immaturity.
Joining an LFG GRRRREEEDDDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNN!!!!! group is fine - no one cares what you do or how selfish you are. People then Needing on good drops is up to that Party to deal with. That is not really what this thread is about.
People who have a lot of Legendary and Artifact gear do not need those drops anyway, except to Salvage or Trade on the AH. So they should never be pugging in the first place. Form a GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! group and screw each other over as much as you like.
But stop polluting the atmosphere of the entire game and corrupting the spirit of the game all the way down to level 12 characters with a 235 GS. It is a contagion that needs to be eradicated with fire.
Changing the Text on the Buttons for the Loot System to be EQUAL CHANCE and CLASS-SPECIFIC does nothing to alter the fact that it is simply NEED or GREED, and the intent of the design is:
NEED if you can
GREED if you can't
PASS if you don't care.
The dice then rolls and you take your chance.
Farm as many Epic dungeons as you like, if you have nothing better to do with your time, but take your chances with the RNG like everyone else.
As intended.
In fact, the Loot Rules can be set by the party leader - I always set them to NEED or GREED on blues and above - but I don't think it works, as GREENS keep coming up as well, when you should just be able to pick them up without blocking out the screen.
THAT is what needs fixing before they start messing about with the text on the buttons, which is never going to happen.
:mad:
For you to say a 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYONE rule is a twisted perversion and your version isn't is not a very smart statement to make.
Furthermore, this thread is not forcing greed runs on anyone. Like I said, agreements should be made at the start of the party. If someone disagrees with it, the party disbands and everyone can go look for a new one. Now if a players agrees to a greed run but still foolishly needs on an item, then the party leader has the blessing to kick said hooligan.
Likewise, you cannot force other people do participate in your Need runs if they do not agree to the ruleset (for good reasons).
anyway, I find a solution for this problem, I posted it in another thread along with other ideas, here it is
DEDICATED GREED RUN
I think many players would welcome option to make the group unable to roll "Need" on anything. I would suggest this - party leader may evoke "Greed run" on the beginning of dungeon. All players must agree (confirm pop up window like when lfg is on) to enforce this. From that moment on players can only greed or pass on all loot and it last until the dungeon is finished.
There is another positive effect to this - since none could "ninja" items you could turn off Vote kick while looting is ongoing and during boss fight and 5-10 seconds after minor boss is dead and disable the kicking after final boss is dead (last until all players leave dungeon) to prevent 3 or 4 players from same guild/friends kick the rest if something interesting drop (happened to me several times in past two months, it looks like new trend)
I am in favor of having an option to make a Dedicated Greed Run. Every single party member must accept it at the beginning or it is not invoked.
No excuses about how this is immoral or greedy or any of that junk. Everyone gets 20% chance at the final loot.
That is a very self centered approach.
To make it very simple if you roll need on something you are deciding that item is yours; no care given to the time and effort the other players have put forth.
If you get a respectful group and communicate clearly that you would like to need on a specific drop you may get at the end of the dungeon I don't necessarilly believe they'd agree, remember these are not your friends they are fellow players who have their own agendas as well, but at least get that sorted in the beginning because you are all but guaranteed to be kicked for needing on big ticket items if the rest of the party expects you to greed.
They are not running the dungeon for you. They are running the dungeon with you. And it doesn't even have to be exclusive to people who are fully geared. If a big ticket item drops and I am getting impatient about getting my own gear from the chest (which should be your preferred method) then by being able to get a big ticket item I can sell it and use the proceeds to get my own gear...
It's fair. Plain and simple.
Even in my own guild I beg people to be fair to the group. We do allow people to need on gear if they plan on equipping it (fat chance in heck I would trust a pug that they aren't actually being greedy for not using the greed button) but doing so is really just being impatient.
After you get your gear you'll still be running dungeons. I would rather split the proceeds from big ticket drops and have you earn the AD to buy it from the AH if you don't get the item from the chest in short order than tell four guild members that instead of everybody getting 100K AD they are getting 0 AD because a member of the guild decides they don't want to run the dungeon a few more times.
So yes, we come back full circle to it being you that is not being considerate and self centered. People aren't doing dungeons out of the kindness of their heart. They have their own goals and their own wants. Just because the item you want drops doesn't mean it's right to stick your tongue out and take it.
Need is the real greed button.
On the contrary don't let it discourage the geared players who are also important to the game. They're here to make progress too and not here to give random pugs handouts and not be rewarded when they'll never see them again, or know if that pug intends to continue playing. The thing is the older content is less rewarding due to it being old and new content was never rewarding and so if we have people taking all of the loot themselves there's not much else to do to actually make AD. It's to the point that I practically don't run any skrimishes or dungeons despite me previously running many hundreds of dungeons because it's just not worth it. If you all greed as an unpopular class then you have the chance to get something worth more than your drop. Idk why some people still bother with the limited AD they can make making the only real thing to do is dailiezzz...
And seriously, just get your gear from the chest. Buying blues from the AH is cheap, you can get t2 from gg or pvp (even if you get thrashed for pvp) with relative ease and it's bound from. You're more likely to get it from the chest than the boss drop and from the chest you team mates won't be punished for helping you. If you all greed you still have the same chance of winning something and if it's the wrong piece, you can sell or trade it and it will be fair for everyone. I'd say it'd be better for the needers that aren't ninjas since they can actually earn AD which they're very short of and need a lot and can get the set piece for free from the chest.
Sure but if you don't answer to someone asking if it's greed then expect to be kicked. Also if you need when nothing at all has been said you could very well be kicked too if you don't make sure the team is alright with it. On the other side if nothing is said, it's very well possible you'll be ninjad.
I said that once. The guy needed on everything...
When we confronted him about it his response was classic. "I need AD."
"WTH, and we don't?" was our response.
And then somehow we were the bad guys. He did ask what the loot rules were but apparently we were wrong in assuming nobody would be daft enough to think needing money was a "need" for the item. We don't need money or anything, we're just here to pass the time because we have nothing better to do...I think we finished the run with him but ugh I was fuming and I have never given pugs the leniency or benefit of the doubt since....
I mean seriously, "I need AD?"
I don't think anyone can disagree with the fact that if you break the greed rule when upfront this was specified, then you will be in trouble. I am however in the need camp when it comes to PUGS, this is what the game has provided, if you want to farm diamonds then do so with a guild or the legit channel, there are those that want to play dungeons for the fun and there are those that do not understand or accept your rules. So please lets not try impose this fun destroying rule on every single player. So going back to the opening post, the way to break this greed mentality is to say need at the start of the dungeon, hopefully if enough do this it will no longer be a taboo to pick need.
I also remembered something. During open beta (maybe for some time after launch also) you could roll whatever and people were complaining about others needing on items their class cant use. Cryptic changed that, now all those exploiters try to force everyone else use the old "fair" system.
On a personal note: I reply to you because you quoted and replied directly. But its for everyone who still defends this twisted fairness.
UPD Yeah, **** you to you son of the *****.
WTB Class Reroll please
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I understand this perspective, and it feels like it is hard to gear up, but honestly man, you will need the AD more than the gear. If you sell the BOE gear and wait to get your BOP gear from the chest, you will improve your character faster. Trust me on this. Don't waste good economic opportunities by equipping something you can sell.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1/10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1/10 char!!!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
How is it twisted? No-one knows what will drop before hand. How is an equal chance for everyone twisted? You can't get any fairer. Loot on greed runs is distributed completely equally and fairly depending on the die you rolled. It's easy for newbies to overlook the value of the boe drops over the chest bop items. If the chest was boe it probably wouldn't matter as much, everyone would still be rewarded for their efforts and people who generally need the item can do so without taking pretty much the entire runs profit away from the team. However it's not like that.
I personally think someone believing their time and reward is more important than the rest of the team selfish.
That has to be the dumbest thing i have ever read in a mmo forum. LOL. If time and effort are irrelevant, why do you even need on an item? Just pass! You know, the effort gearing up is irrelevant, isnt it?
Gosh, thats so stupid, sorry, but it is.
Gosh, I skimmed these posts for a quote that summed it all up for me, but for the life of me I can't find it now, it was something to the effect that, this person states, so they are supposed to run a dungeon with this preferred Greed system, Roll for loot that they actually need but someone else gets it, only to see it on the AH after the dungeon, to buy it from the person they were just in the dungeon with.
And this suggestion about items being bound and not being able to sell, give it to an alt, or.... salvage that is just wrong in so many ways.
I don't want to have to run a dungeon a gazillion times just hoping to win a roll so I can gear up, or sell on the AH to get my.. A.D. either, and I sure as heck don't want to buy my item on the AH from the person I just got done finishing the dungeon with either.
The way I look at it, weather it's a guild run, P.U.G., or Queue, everyone is in it together, everyone should get something for their involvement/time spent. If your doing a T1/T2/T3 etc., then purples should drop for everyone ( Whatever They May Be ) in the end chest to do with what they please.
If they want to have a special drop(s) then do it the same as they do in the Sword Coast Adventures when you log in, you get to roll the Twenty-Sided, well why can't the same be done for those mini boss special drops, Have the Gold Twenty Die come on the screen for each character in the party, it could be high roll wins, low roll, whatever the code decides for someone to receive that drop. Point being the game is in control of it and not set by party leader or any CP settings from your character options
Just thoughts here.... but again I don't want to have to run something multiple times exponentially just to gear up or get my A.D. either.
Cheers, W.W.
P.S.
DDO had a nice console Command for parties, norms or raids, that if a person wished they could put something they got up for roll themselves and specify the roll dynamic, Eg. /roll d20, /roll d100, /roll d1000, if they wanted to. I thought that was a nice option to have, as they were in control of what they wanted to do with the item.
I'm sure it will get sorted out, sure this high ticket loot will go up on the AH and that s fine, but if sellers want to sell, there has to be something in place to allow the up and coming people to be able to get their AD at a reasonable rate to be able to afford the price gouging in this economy. And if they can't get it honestly in the game it will be just more people in game using the Gold Sellers, and other dis-honest methods to acquire what they need.
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
And now we moved to personal insults. I'm not even going to respond to your opinion, you deserve a ban.
So basically your time is worth more than everyone elses? If you don't pass on other set pieces that drop then that's basically what you're saying.
+1
Fairly a straw puppet don't you think?
If you get your party to agree on a need run,
I can't imagine anyone will force you
to greed when suddenly your loot drops.
The point is most runs are greed runs.
You don't get to make the rules,
the party does, by majority.
Ajust or find another party.
If the majority wants to play a different way,
who are you to say otherwise?
If the majority agrees with your need,
then how did you get kicked?
At the start of any pug run I will always
let people know 'greed on epics'.
If you disagree we can talk, we are humans after all.
Often I allow a need on your drop for a pass on anything else.
If you don't protest I will assume 'agree'.
From here on if you need you are a ninja.
If its crappy loot you took I'll first ask you
to hand it over to someone of your choice who greeded.
I dont care it wont be me, I just want a real apolagy.
You dont do that or if it's valuable you get a kick.
Seems you confuse the reason why there are no/few need runs
with the reason why there are plenty greed runs. Who cares why I prefer
greed runs, what really bothers you is why there are no need runs.
When it is in your best interest to do need runs, you are awfully weak.
Teams of such players probably wont even finish the dungeon,
and if they do you will take a multifold of the normal time.
When you finally get pissed by the wipes or not finding teams at all,
you start joining greed runs, because they are not only to finish it,
they do it smoothly and explain you how the dungeon works doing it.
You get experience, a chest drop, and a fair chance to make some decent ad,
which is more then you would get on a failed run. Most probably you're
just a drag on the team, but who cares as long as I get treated with respect,
get my fair share of the loot and have some fun,
I'll take any class any gearscore.
Because the runs are so much smoother you get geared in no-time and suddenly
there is nothing to need on anymore for you. As fast as you are geared however,
you see the light and change in a greed-advocate yourself. This happened
to virtually every well meaning player I know who protested greed runs.
Thats not really something to be ashamed of, its called subjectivity.
Whatever 'truth' is more in your advantage will always seem more truthfull
then anything else. All human minds work this way.
The real answer why there are no, or few, runs who rig the system to
your advantage is because at the point you are in the game, you bring nothing
to the table. Beggars aint choosers.
ftfy. It's already been stated why need isn't entirely equal. I've geared 8 toons without needing to need on such loot, I'm sure other people can handle gearing theirs up too. Though I have needed on t1s before when the rules weren't clear when I didn't know what was considered standard though others may have needed other stuff in those runs too. I've only bothered with actual t1s for my DC though and that was after getting my t2 set.
I'm not denying that kicking someone for needing for not knowing any better is uncalled for. But greed is the completely equal way. We're stuck farming these old dungeons, the least we can do is give everyone on average the same reward value wise. Well I'm not stuck doing it, but for the rest of you who still bother.
Still haven't answered my question...
Well that might be a nice idea.
Next time you see someone asking 'greed run?' propose that.
After confirming mechanics I would agree.
Convert a soul at a time.
But TALK.
I dont know much about the dev's intend,
but what I do know is they made a multiplayer game,
not a single player one, so I'm pretty sure
they want us to play together, not solo.
Dont just ignore others because you disagree,
go your own way and be suprised if people get upset.
Could you please now respond to frishter.
What he basicly said is your statement is actually a double statement,
each with an own answer.
Kicking someone out of the blue who is unaware of rules is
entirely differrent then kicking someone who did know but
needed anyway.
The first is inexcusable, the second disserved.
Nobody disagrees with the first,
so please argue only against the second.
More people probably would if the dungeon queues weren't so dodgy about insisting on setting the need/greed loot rolls for you.
Whatever rules party leader has set up work perfectly if entering a heroic through the door.
Using the queue, nobody seems to be able to figure out how to get their settings to stay to what they've set them at.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
yeah right, if the group leader could change loot system, lots of them would just do it before final boss die and change it to "group leader decide" and take whatever loot.
if you make your own group you can decide what loot system is on, but in LFG system it has to be set cos all of those players are equal and party leader who is picked randomly or by some hidden mechanics shouldn't have any power that other players doesn't have and that's why party leader can't kick or invite whoever she/he want
You think that people will stop grinding a dungeon once they get the item they 'need'?
No, they will still run pug groups and 'need' on the same item and sell it on AH as you are accusing people who 'greed' of doing.
The difference being that 'greed' gives everyone a fair chance, while 'need' just gives the item to the same guy who just did ten runs and sold every drop he 'needed' on.
Endorsing 'need' over 'greed' means you have absolute trust in pugs to only 'need' on items they actually have need of, instead of playing classes with high cost equip so they can need on it and sell it in AH.
Endorsing 'greed' over need says you don't give a rat's *** about trusting your fellow pug, and would rather have a 20% across the board chance for ALL party members to get the drop. Thus eliminating the pugs that ninja(need) their high cost items to sell on AH (as you are saying only happens in Greed runs).