Well, GREED is just that... greed. Evne a low NEED roll will outweigh a GREED. The problem arises from someone genuinely needing the item for use as oposed to someone rolling need with full intent to sell on the AH. Still, what can you do?
In the current patch, it's illogical to need with the intent of using. Only reason for BOE is to sell on AH.
I planned not to write anything here, but there are so many silly posts... Will be short though.
There is no need to need a boss drop, since you'll get it from the chest anyway. 10% chance really isn't that bad.
Someone wrote the the chest is the bonus. No, the boss drop is the bonus. You'll get your gear from the chest, you're guaranteed to get it from the chest. I repeat, 10% chance, not too bad.
Nothing more to say.
Play another game, as this is the RNG system the designers intended, working as intended?
Need if you can;
Greed if you can't
Pass if you don't care.
If an items drops for my DC, no one can steal it.
If an item drops for a CW, I have no desire to steal it. It's their drop. If there are two CWs in the party, the NEED roll decides which of them gets it.
Back in the day, with real AD&D, a Fighter would not get a Wand of Lightning just so he could sell it for gold, unless the Magic User did not want it.
A Cleric would not get a +5 Vorpal Sword just so he could sell it for gold, unless the Fighter or Paladin did not want it.
People spamming CN, VT and MC just so they can steal other people's drops are the equivalent of TRs with 10 Wands of Lightning, 15 +5 Vorpals and 5 Gauntlets of Ogrekind, all sold on the AH.
You play DC right? so you need on your DC mainhand, worth 60k on AH. You don't "need" it to use, because you probably have an artifact weapon anyway.
Someone else plays SW and needs on his SW mainhand, worth 400k on AH. He doesn't need it because he has artifact weapon. He sells it.
The SW makes more money than you b/c he plays SW, despite you both contributed to the run. How is this fair?
I know this is tough to hear, but there are people with different opinions than you do and they prefer GREED runs or as I like to call it: EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY runs. In those runs, you greed on the epic boss loots.
Of course, whether a party runs Need or Greed runs all depends on the agreement made at the start of the party.
Now let me state that i believe in "Need if you need it" but as i have fully geared 3 chars i no longer will need anything nor have i needed on anything because I've never been in a situation where a piece of gear dropped and it was an upgrade. It has never happened that way for me personally, but i have gotten kicked for not greeding fast enough, through the que where no one specified loot rules either.
In all actuality isn't every run weather it is need or greed an equal chance for everybody, because assuming everyone is using the same loot rules be it greed or need their is an equal chance that an item will drop for any class. I believe what you want is EQUAL PRICE FOR EVERYBODY, because the real issue is that class X gear is way more valuable then class Y gear. If all gear sold for the same amount this wouldn't be an issue everyone would probably just do as the game designs need when they can and greed when they can't. Now i know what you going to say what about groups with 4 or 5 CW's in it, well they would all have an equal chance on getting any item that drops for any other class and they each have an equal chance of getting the piece of CW gear that drops, and then what about the one other person thats not a CW they get a greater chance... well there should really be some kind of deterrent to promote more rainbow parties, and if you still want to run that 4 CW group their should be that modest reduction in drop chance in all fairness.
well there should really be some kind of deterrent to promote more rainbow parties, and if you still want to run that 4 CW group their should be that modest reduction in drop chance in all fairness.
If you want to promote rainbow parties, go lobby for class balance in PVE.
Until then, people will run their own Need/Greed (aka EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY) runs themselves
If you want to promote rainbow parties, go lobby for class balance in PVE.
Until then, people will run their own Need/Greed (aka EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY) runs themselves
LOL, if you say it enough times maybe you'll start to believe the lie... So i take it you disagree that this issue revolves around price and you feel that the chance is the most important thing? Because you know a 20% chance of 0 is still 0.
LOL, if you say it enough times maybe you'll start to believe the lie... So i take it you disagree that this issue revolves around price and you feel that the chance is the most important thing? Because you know a 20% chance of 0 is still 0.
Chance is not the most important thing. Dead PVE endgame is a bigger problem imo.
I'm just saying that greed runs are not the problem and are in fact the most preferred type of run since it gives EQUAL CHANCE TO EVERYBODY.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Equal economic chances for everyone.
Don't care how we get there, but we need this outcome.
Don't care how we get there, but we need this outcome.
Also, just had a thought. Even if all the classes were equally valuable (personally i only think TR struggles in pre mod4 content here), Some will always be more popular than others. Prices in a free market are rarely stable, and hence I don't see there being a solution instead.
Ideally, what i'd like, is to set rules through a system _before_ the run, then have the interface enforce those rules. Like if we say greed all, then the need option disappears and I could set categorizes (i.e. greed purples, and enchants, pass greens and blues). that would be done automatically so i don't have all this stuff cluttering my screen. That would be very very nice.
You play DC right? so you need on your DC mainhand, worth 60k on AH. You don't "need" it to use, because you probably have an artifact weapon anyway.
No, my Dwarven DC War Priest has Ancient Royal Priest's weapons from the AH. He used to have a Grand Templar set, but replaced it with Profound Righteous.
My Tiefling AC Healer has Grim Faithful weapons and full Armour set, and both Grim Defiance and Dominance jewelry, one set is on the Ioun Stone. She's saving Glory and Seals to upgrade to Profound, but just bought another Raven Skull. She needs 27 Seals, and has only 9.
I don't have any Artifact or Black Ice gear at all.
Someone else plays SW and needs on his SW mainhand, worth 400k on AH. He doesn't need it because he has artifact weapon. He sells it.
The SW makes more money than you b/c he plays SW, despite you both contributed to the run. How is this fair?
Supply and demand. If there are more DC items on the AH, they will be cheaper. Spamming those dungeons just to steal another guy's drop is just wrong and against the spirit and intent of the game. Unless you all agree beforehand. Anyway, who are you to say he does not need it? For whatever reason. It's his drop. That is what the RNG decided.
I just upgraded an enchant from 5 to 6. It took 22 attempts and used 22 Preservation Wards. Then, I upgraded a 6 to a 7 and it worked first time. I cannot say that 22 attempts on average should have worked on 7 or 8 enchants of Rank 5, as each attempt is independent. The next attempt does not care how many other attempts I have made, or anything else that is going on around it. And it does not care how many Wards I have. Random is Random, if it is truly random. Same with RNG drop rates.
But don't ask me, ask Cryptic. They made it what it is. The drop rate is what it is. It is as intended by the designers. Forcing people to GREED when they do not want to (which is what the OP is about) is exploiting the players, rather than exploiting PWE. I could not be bothered repeatedly running through those dungeons to have a 20% chance of getting something with a 6/7 chance of not being something I could use.
But as I said elsewhere, both my TRs got the Battle Skulker's Armour from the AH and the Spymaster's Elegant Dagger and Ceremonial Shiv. For some reason, the Shivs were a lot more expensive, but still around 160k. I did not have quite enough for the 2nd Shiv for my WK.
Next day, after doing Professions, I had enough AD. But ALL of the Shivs and Daggers were gone, except two each re-posted by the same account at 790k and 800k. A few days later, there were dozens again and I got my Shiv for 153k. The ones at 790 and 800k were still there, expiring in 13 hours 24 minutes. Someone lost a large posting fee! LOL!
So just because you post something for a stupid price does not mean it will sell. I would not have paid 800k. EVER. I'd rather run the dungeon, but if it dropped, it's MINE. Unless there is another TR in the group, in which case the NEED roll decides. Any other class can adopt a more mature attitude and take their licks and take their knocks like every other responsible adult still playing CRPGs.
My friend and I have been playing for about two months. We just started running epic dungeons and have ran about four. Last night we downed a boss and a chest piece dropped that was an upgrade and he rolled need. He was kicked by the other three people before the roll went through and I won the item. Nobody ever said in the group greed only. Luckly I was able to give it to him.
I will say this was my first bad experience with pugs through the queue. You could tell that one of them was an "elitest" He was running past trash and doing shortcuts we have never seen without explaining anything and got upset when we didn't know what to do. His main goal was just finish as fast as he can and treated it like work. We were actually in the dungeon to have fun and being the first time it is the experience that counts. I think alot of people forget that over time and "assume" everyone is just farming like they are.
I think some nice suggestions have been made on here as far as making "need" items only discard or use. Because having to greed 1/5 upgrades is not a fun way to gear up for new players. I think the best way to go is with a group of friends/guild.
The identical thing happened to us when doing Frozen Heart for the first time as sub lvl 60 characters; after explicitly asking prior to entering if they were doing a greed run and to please drop out if they intend to rush to the finish line just to get their greed drop. So not only with trying to manage expectations and asking politely to respect the other lower non-60 lvl 16k+ Gear Score elitists, they still proceeded to leave us behind, spawning massive mobs in their wake as we tried to keep up and were easily overtaken, both by the mobs and the unexpected cut scenes they trigger.
Toleration is a form of Consent. Perfect world needed to understand this, and how it can be cancerous to an online community.
The only recourse is to join/create a guild and connect with other likeminded players, and avoid those who simply cannot spend one iota of their time assisting another for the benefit of others. Lessons learned are to never give up party leader for any reason, and examine gear score/profile prior to inviting.
And is the 3rd option (PASS) broken or something? Nothing wrong with saying 'I've got enough for now, thanks'.
Because most people want to be rewarded for their time participating. Some classes stuff costs more than other classes so in order to make everyone have the same chance of getting an equal amount, people go with the greed all rules minus enchants and sometimes necks/belts/rings which everyone can need on. For example if I'm part of a group and a sw item drops which is currently worth maybe 1m for some items, why should a sw get to keep all of that AD for himself just because he picked the fotm.
- From someone who greeded his SW loot
Also if you do actually use the item at that price instead of selling it and earning it from teh chest, you're kind of a fool or rich.
When I first did guild CN runs I was wondering the same why we couldn't need if we did need it. I didn't complain, but it was a system that worked well. Everyone managed to profit from our split runs and eventually you can buy the items yourself. Otherwise why should they run with people that don't have lesser gear and just stick to well geared groups. Something people whine about too about people asking for 15k gs for whatever t2.
If it's BoP, of course I'd expect you to need on it though if you don't have it. Even if it's just for collection points.
This.
It's to entice the well geared players into coming into PUG groups to "help" gear people. The only thing you can count on is the loot from your personal chest. Sadly, most people wouldn't help a PUG group at all without having some sort of incentive to go. The chance to "greed" on a 500K-1M AD helm is the proverbial carrot on the stick.
I planned not to write anything here, but there are so many silly posts... Will be short though.
There is no need to need a boss drop, since you'll get it from the chest anyway. 10% chance really isn't that bad.
Someone wrote the the chest is the bonus. No, the boss drop is the bonus. You'll get your gear from the chest, you're guaranteed to get it from the chest. I repeat, 10% chance, not too bad.
Nothing more to say.
There is logic to what you say. I won’t argue that. Perhaps I come from a different mentality. I play another Cryptic game (STO) and to be honest I don’t even know why there’s a greed button at all as everyone.. EVERYONE hits NEED for EVERY drop. At least in NW you can’t ‘need’ for an out-of-class item, giving some sense of balance, but in STO every drop can be used by every class, so they ALL ‘need’ it. It’s so frustrating to me for some reason.
When I first joined MMORPGS with a need/greed system we used it accordingly. Hell, even if a need was outrolled the winner may sometimes offer it to the loser… now it just seems greed rules.
I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday and I have come to the conclusion that, although frustrating at times, it is what it is. I, myself, have greed-rolled a few non-class items with the full intention of selling and, again, since I can’t ‘need’ an out-of-class item it’s all moot.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
You will forever be missed and never forgotten.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
No, my Dwarven DC War Priest has Ancient Royal Priest's weapons from the AH. He used to have a Grand Templar set, but replaced it with Profound Righteous.
My Tiefling AC Healer has Grim Faithful weapons and full Armour set, and both Grim Defiance and Dominance jewelry, one set is on the Ioun Stone. She's saving Glory and Seals to upgrade to Profound, but just bought another Raven Skull. She needs 27 Seals, and has only 9.
I don't have any Artifact or Black Ice gear at all.
Supply and demand. If there are more DC items on the AH, they will be cheaper. Spamming those dungeons just to steal another guy's drop is just wrong and against the spirit and intent of the game. Unless you all agree beforehand. Anyway, who are you to say he does not need it? For whatever reason. It's his drop. That is what the RNG decided.
I just upgraded an enchant from 5 to 6. It took 22 attempts and used 22 Preservation Wards. Then, I upgraded a 6 to a 7 and it worked first time. I cannot say that 22 attempts on average should have worked on 7 or 8 enchants of Rank 5, as each attempt is independent. The next attempt does not care how many other attempts I have made, or anything else that is going on around it. And it does not care how many Wards I have. Random is Random, if it is truly random. Same with RNG drop rates.
But don't ask me, ask Cryptic. They made it what it is. The drop rate is what it is. It is as intended by the designers. Forcing people to GREED when they do not want to (which is what the OP is about) is exploiting the players, rather than exploiting PWE. I could not be bothered repeatedly running through those dungeons to have a 20% chance of getting something with a 6/7 chance of not being something I could use.
But as I said elsewhere, both my TRs got the Battle Skulker's Armour from the AH and the Spymaster's Elegant Dagger and Ceremonial Shiv. For some reason, the Shivs were a lot more expensive, but still around 160k. I did not have quite enough for the 2nd Shiv for my WK.
Next day, after doing Professions, I had enough AD. But ALL of the Shivs and Daggers were gone, except two each re-posted by the same account at 790k and 800k. A few days later, there were dozens again and I got my Shiv for 153k. The ones at 790 and 800k were still there, expiring in 13 hours 24 minutes. Someone lost a large posting fee! LOL!
So just because you post something for a stupid price does not mean it will sell. I would not have paid 800k. EVER. I'd rather run the dungeon, but if it dropped, it's MINE. Unless there is another TR in the group, in which case the NEED roll decides. Any other class can adopt a more mature attitude and take their licks and take their knocks like every other responsible adult still playing CRPGs.
That is all.
LOL... i see where you are coming from here too. I was just trying to help you out b/c DC items are woefully underpriced. The community is down on DCs because they don't understand the value of a good DC. Personally i think 4 good players + DC > Four good players + almost anything else, assuming other important roles are filled.
I was just trying to help you out.
Normally if someone actually needs an item, we discuss before hand. Maybe the team just wants them to have that item, fine. Sometimes though it's for a 4th or 5th alt, which at that point the person, out of courtesy, will pay their share.
Now, considering that you can get everything except CN weapons as BOP, this is essentially a non issue, as everyone prefers to sell the BOE version and farm the BOP version, at least those who are actively farming instances. No one as far as i know has attempted to split boon books (because they might use them), but some people have split belts.
That said with good communication every group can work things out. The question is what happens in the absence of good communication.
And LOL people paying 800k for CN TR weapons is so Mod 1. No one does that anymore XD XD People can be so silly and greedy.
So just because you post something for a stupid price does not mean it will sell. I would not have paid 800k. EVER. I'd rather run the dungeon, but if it dropped, it's MINE. Unless there is another TR in the group, in which case the NEED roll decides. Any other class can adopt a more mature attitude and take their licks and take their knocks like every other responsible adult still playing CRPGs.
That is all.
Please don't be a greedy selfish narrow-minded player. If it is a greed run, you must respect the rules.
If that is your prerogative, then go look for need runs.
I do hope that people kick you at the end boss if you try and pull that schtick on a greed run.
I do hope that people kick you at the end boss if you try and pull that schtick on a greed run.
But, as I have said repeatedly, I never do GRRRREEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNNSSSSSSS!!!!!! (drool) because I am not greedy, selfish, narrow-minded, childish, immature or greedy. And I do not want to steal gear from another class, so I will not have them stealing mine.
But, as I have said repeatedly, I never do GRRRREEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNNSSSSSSS!!!!!! (drool) because I am not greedy, selfish, narrow-minded, childish, immature or greedy. And I do not want to steal gear from another class, so I will not have them stealing mine.
I will repeat what I already said in this thread, not only for you but for everybody:
"I think the word GREED should be replaced bij another one like 'equal chance for everybody' because as I see many ppl do not understand the meaning behind this word. Greed in general is a negative word but it is not in this loot-contex. When you run a dungeon you do it normally for yourself and not to pleasure the others. You do it to get nice stuff. Everybody wants nice stuff (to sell it or for yourself, that's up to you). Then the most adecuate thing to do is to click "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" so that that everybody has the same chances to get that nice loot. Neverwinter has opted for the word GREED for that matter."
LOL... i see where you are coming from here too. I was just trying to help you out b/c DC items are woefully underpriced. The community is down on DCs because they don't understand the value of a good DC. Personally i think 4 good players + DC > Four good players + almost anything else, assuming other important roles are filled.
Oh, I agree. DC damage is also woefully under-dps'd as well! And their CC Resistance is non-existent. And half their Powers do not benefit from Crit Strike and ArPen! But that is another thread.
At least the buffs and heals work, for what they are. But they can make a big difference if the entire team has about the same GS. But the team also has to know they they need to be close by to benefit from the AC Healer - and she needs to be defended by people who have some dps. A good enemy team in PvP always focuses me first, though. THEN they go for Warlocks, CWs and GWFs. Especially when they see how fast she can cast Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground, with her ferocious INT, CHA and Recovery speed. And with the Profound, she'l get an extra 2.5% healing and Divinity regeneration!
Thing is, I started with a Tielfling AC and a Dwarf AC and re-speced them a few times and spent a lot of Glory, stones and AD on their gear, artifacts and Companions. Then I bought more character slots for a change of pace and to level up some leadership mules. I now have 12 level 60s, 1 level 39 SW and a level 1 SW still at the first camp fire, plus one free slot.
And I keep changing my Main character, so it can be expensive on resources. But at least four of them have Rank 20 leadership now!
So, I made a Virtuous/Righteous Dwarf DO Berserker War Priest for solo play, and he was main for quite a while. Not too bad in PvP, either.
Then I re-raced a Halfling WK into a Dragonborn to reset her initial rolls, and also geared up my Halfling MI, and they were my mains for a while. Now, I am back to my Tiefling Healer AC. Thought I'd get the remaining Sharandar boons on her.
But, really, if you focus on a single character, it will become uber-powered and you will only be fit for GREEEEDDDD runs as there will be nothing else worth your time. But that's fine if you are teamed with other 21k uber-characters. But if you have newer players, let then Need on stuff. You will feel a better man for it. The Moral High Ground will raise you up.
Yesterday, we were against a PvP party that had a 21k CW with five Legendaries (not YOU was it? ). They were ALL 18k+ with 3 to 5 Legendaries, except one of them was 15k with no Legendaries. And they were not even a Guild. We had no chance at all. But I could never focus on grinding a single character like that. I do not have the monomania, and need a change now and then. TR is fun, until they nerf Perma-Stealth.
And I get about 100k AD per day just from doing leadership 3 times a day on 12 characters. I spent the last two days buying nothing but Marks of Potency - still refining all those enchants and runes from the Pinata. Shame I did not have the time to bash them before Double Refining Weekend!
That said with good communication every group can work things out. The question is what happens in the absence of good communication.
No one cares or minds if your Guild is 21k with five legendaries and you do Greed runs in the top three dungeons - you aren't hurting anyone. The problem is with situations like the OP mentioned, where he is doing a dungeon and suddenly the pugs think he should be Greeding instead of Needing. Or people get kicked.
Legit Channel (mostly) will not kick people unless they go against what they agreed to and do it repeatedly. And they do not insist on a minimum GS and will take newbies so the newbies get some experience of these dungeons. That is the Bright Side of the Force.
But the Dark Side is when they insist on Greed runs as a "fee" from the lower-geared characters. But that is exploiting the players and just as much perverting the intent of the design of the coding as going through a hole in a wall, shooting a dragon over the top of a gate, suiciding at a camp fire or running straight through to the end. But I think exploiting players is worse than exploiting PWE's code and such practices do not belong in a channel that calls itself "Legit".
And with 21k GS and five Legendary artifacts and artifact gear, do you REALLY need that AD? Don't you have Multiple Leadership Mules, or are you one of the F2Pers from Open Beta with only two free characters on your account?
But, as I have said repeatedly, I never do GRRRREEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNNSSSSSSS!!!!!! (drool) because I am not greedy, selfish, narrow-minded, childish, immature or greedy. And I do not want to steal gear from another class, so I will not have them stealing mine.
Didn't realize that opting for the 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY option meant stealing gear from another class.
Either way, that is a good policy in asking for the preferred type of run amongst your party members. Otherwise, nobody should fault anyone for kicking you at the last boss for needing during a greed run
Admittedly, I came to this topic as confused about the issue as the OP. I recently had the experience of being kicked out of a party for "needing" a boss drop (aboleth cloak, not even restricted to class so EVERYONE could have "needed"), despite no one communicating any form of ruling prior. This was only my third dungeon run, and every run I'd done before-hand was "need everything you can", so this unexplained exodus really threw and upset me (especially when we were still "needing" enchantments).
But, after reading through this topic, it makes a good deal more sense. If nothing else, it enforces the need for clear loot ruling prior to entering the dungeon.
Thank you OP, for asking the question, and to all the posters who argued so hard to answer it.
Admittedly, I came to this topic as confused about the issue as the OP. I recently had the experience of being kicked out of a party for "needing" a boss drop (aboleth cloak, not even restricted to class so EVERYONE could have "needed"), despite no one communicating any form of ruling prior. This was only my third dungeon run, and every run I'd done before-hand was "need everything you can", so this unexplained exodus really threw and upset me (especially when we were still "needing" enchantments).
But, after reading through this topic, it makes a good deal more sense. If nothing else, it enforces the need for clear loot ruling prior to entering the dungeon.
Thank you OP, for asking the question, and to all the posters who argued so hard to answer it.
We'll here's the thing. Greed runs have gotten so overwhelmingly popular because so many people just prefer doing it that style (for obvious reasons; ie scour the thread) that they forget to explicitly mention it at the beginning of the run thus causing confusion and fights.
This is why I'm lobbying to just get rid of the "need" button because you put new players at risk for being kicked, insulted etc for not knowing the code when they really aren't at fault because they were just following the default loot rules, no matter how stupid it is.
We'll here's the thing. Greed runs have gotten so overwhelmingly popular because so many people just prefer doing it that style (for obvious reasons; ie scour the thread) that they forget to explicitly mention it at the beginning of the run thus causing confusion and fights.
This is why I'm lobbying to just get rid of the "need" button because you put new players at risk for being kicked, insulted etc for not knowing the code when they really aren't at fault because they were just following the default loot rules, no matter how stupid it is.
That would of course, but (IMO) even better would to allow a need item that binds any item won by it making it unsellable to vendors or on the AH and also un-salvageable. Then again, given the existence of personal chests, just removing 'Need' altogether would be a much simpler system to implement....
That would of course, but (IMO) even better would to allow a need item that binds any item won by it making it unsellable to vendors or on the AH and also un-salvageable. Then again, given the existence of personal chests, just removing 'Need' altogether would be a much simpler system to implement....
I think the personal chests should used instead for that reason. The epic drop from the final boss is worth more in the auction house than when equipped to a player. I also like the idea that completing a dungeon drops a valuable BOE loot that is either split among your friends or greeded upon by a random party.
Cryptic might not remove the "NEED" button because it is a proprietary D&D reference or something along those veins.
In that case, I am in favor of making it bind-on-pickup, have zero gold value and have zero salvage value.
Wow this is clearly a big issue. Greed runs are determined by the agreement between players before you enter a dungeon. But e.g pug dungeons is a collaboration random people queuing for (X) dungeon, there are no default rules that everything is greed, this is a mentality the players chose to accept by themselves and expect everybody else to follow their (X) rules. It doesn't work that way, if I que for pug dungeon and if the item drops for my class I will need on it, because I didn't agree to any greed arrangements with anyone in the dungeon, therefore I am entitled to need if it a item for my class.
I'm not talking about premade groups that come together to run dungeons as they normal state the rules before hand, and if you don't agree with the rule run, you can leave which in turn doesn't waste anybodies time and patience. But if I que for a random pug dungeon and people forcing me to greed, sorry it will not happen, go back to your premade groups if you want to do that, stop forcing pug dungeons runners to agree to your (x) rules cause you want an item, if you don't like then go join the premade groups and don't pug.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave.
No.
Your channel originator (Bioshrike) has repeatedly said that there is no channel loot rule, and that parties should discuss this amongst themselves prior to a run.
That individuals attempt to claim that there is an official channel loot rule is wrong. There isn't one. There might be a majority preference, but that's not the same as a RULE.
amorraMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Glad I ran into this thread. Even if I have mixed feelings on the general 'rule of thumb' that the community goes by.
I do hope Cryptic Studios puts in a 'Bound on Need' option... but I do not see that really stopping people from trying to enforce the 'greed runs' as a general community group rule. The main reason for the greed rule is (as some have stated) AD for time spent in a given instance. People are still going to frown on people rolling need and 'robbing them' of profit.
Not sure if I want to group anymore. I do not have the time to 'farm AD' to get gear from the AH that drops in dungeons. I also tend to be on the low side more often than naught. I run dungeons to get upgrades.. not to get other people 'my gear' to sell to me.
Ah, but pay me no mind. If it works, it works reguardless of how I feel about it.
But if I que for a random pug dungeon and people forcing me to greed, sorry it will not happen, go back to your premade groups if you want to do that, stop forcing pug dungeons runners to agree to your (x) rules cause you want an item, if you don't like then go join the premade groups and don't pug.
Well they have to state it first at the start of the run. If majority of the group agrees to a greed run, then you either are forced to follow it or you leave the group at the start and find a new one to fit your preferred loot rule.
Otherwise, the protocol is to kick you at the end of the greed run for needing on an item and acting selfish. Questions?
Greed runs, is something entirely made up by greedy people.
20% equal chance for everybody to grab the loot is greedy? Gotcha.
Anyway, the premise of your argument is completely flawed. Everyone who enters dungeons wants to get something out of it. Therefore, need runs consist of greedy people as well
Greed runs, is something entirely made up by greedy people. IF anything, cryptic should grey out the greed button just like the need button, if it isn't for the correct class, because this is an mmo after all and if something drops and it is not suitable for the people whose only intention is to sell it on the ah anyway, then said people are SoL, just as in every other mmo out there.
Attempting a dungeon is never guaranteed loot, i wonder who came up with this bs in the first place...
People who wants fairness for all party member came up with this..
Greed run = equal chance of loot disregard of class ratio in the party.
Need run = unfair chance for class with number of more than 1 in the party. i.e if party consist of 4 cw 1 HR, when CW item drop..those 4 cw would have to share the chance while the HR got an increase chance in getting drop due to 100% chance for his own.
Do the math.. and yea..ppl set this rule for a reason.
BTW Though i see the fairness in greed run but i still worried for item like artifact belt when drop. I think the best way to deal with cheater is to restructure the greed rule to greed on epic & above weapon and armor part only since the belt, ring & necklace can be need by every1. Since most ppl in the comunity hasnt seen this point yet and is used to greed on all, i advice to hold your roll 1st and advice your party to need on item such as artifact belt to avoid QQ. Oh yea..and let the leader roll 1st..since he is able to kick ppl w/o ppl able to kick him in SoT run.
Comments
In the current patch, it's illogical to need with the intent of using. Only reason for BOE is to sell on AH.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1
Logical post is logical
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You play DC right? so you need on your DC mainhand, worth 60k on AH. You don't "need" it to use, because you probably have an artifact weapon anyway.
Someone else plays SW and needs on his SW mainhand, worth 400k on AH. He doesn't need it because he has artifact weapon. He sells it.
The SW makes more money than you b/c he plays SW, despite you both contributed to the run. How is this fair?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Now let me state that i believe in "Need if you need it" but as i have fully geared 3 chars i no longer will need anything nor have i needed on anything because I've never been in a situation where a piece of gear dropped and it was an upgrade. It has never happened that way for me personally, but i have gotten kicked for not greeding fast enough, through the que where no one specified loot rules either.
In all actuality isn't every run weather it is need or greed an equal chance for everybody, because assuming everyone is using the same loot rules be it greed or need their is an equal chance that an item will drop for any class. I believe what you want is EQUAL PRICE FOR EVERYBODY, because the real issue is that class X gear is way more valuable then class Y gear. If all gear sold for the same amount this wouldn't be an issue everyone would probably just do as the game designs need when they can and greed when they can't. Now i know what you going to say what about groups with 4 or 5 CW's in it, well they would all have an equal chance on getting any item that drops for any other class and they each have an equal chance of getting the piece of CW gear that drops, and then what about the one other person thats not a CW they get a greater chance... well there should really be some kind of deterrent to promote more rainbow parties, and if you still want to run that 4 CW group their should be that modest reduction in drop chance in all fairness.
If you want to promote rainbow parties, go lobby for class balance in PVE.
Until then, people will run their own Need/Greed (aka EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY) runs themselves
LOL, if you say it enough times maybe you'll start to believe the lie... So i take it you disagree that this issue revolves around price and you feel that the chance is the most important thing? Because you know a 20% chance of 0 is still 0.
Chance is not the most important thing. Dead PVE endgame is a bigger problem imo.
I'm just saying that greed runs are not the problem and are in fact the most preferred type of run since it gives EQUAL CHANCE TO EVERYBODY.
Don't care how we get there, but we need this outcome.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Also, just had a thought. Even if all the classes were equally valuable (personally i only think TR struggles in pre mod4 content here), Some will always be more popular than others. Prices in a free market are rarely stable, and hence I don't see there being a solution instead.
Ideally, what i'd like, is to set rules through a system _before_ the run, then have the interface enforce those rules. Like if we say greed all, then the need option disappears and I could set categorizes (i.e. greed purples, and enchants, pass greens and blues). that would be done automatically so i don't have all this stuff cluttering my screen. That would be very very nice.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
No, my Dwarven DC War Priest has Ancient Royal Priest's weapons from the AH. He used to have a Grand Templar set, but replaced it with Profound Righteous.
My Tiefling AC Healer has Grim Faithful weapons and full Armour set, and both Grim Defiance and Dominance jewelry, one set is on the Ioun Stone. She's saving Glory and Seals to upgrade to Profound, but just bought another Raven Skull. She needs 27 Seals, and has only 9.
I don't have any Artifact or Black Ice gear at all.
Supply and demand. If there are more DC items on the AH, they will be cheaper. Spamming those dungeons just to steal another guy's drop is just wrong and against the spirit and intent of the game. Unless you all agree beforehand. Anyway, who are you to say he does not need it? For whatever reason. It's his drop. That is what the RNG decided.
I just upgraded an enchant from 5 to 6. It took 22 attempts and used 22 Preservation Wards. Then, I upgraded a 6 to a 7 and it worked first time. I cannot say that 22 attempts on average should have worked on 7 or 8 enchants of Rank 5, as each attempt is independent. The next attempt does not care how many other attempts I have made, or anything else that is going on around it. And it does not care how many Wards I have. Random is Random, if it is truly random. Same with RNG drop rates.
But don't ask me, ask Cryptic. They made it what it is. The drop rate is what it is. It is as intended by the designers. Forcing people to GREED when they do not want to (which is what the OP is about) is exploiting the players, rather than exploiting PWE. I could not be bothered repeatedly running through those dungeons to have a 20% chance of getting something with a 6/7 chance of not being something I could use.
But as I said elsewhere, both my TRs got the Battle Skulker's Armour from the AH and the Spymaster's Elegant Dagger and Ceremonial Shiv. For some reason, the Shivs were a lot more expensive, but still around 160k. I did not have quite enough for the 2nd Shiv for my WK.
Next day, after doing Professions, I had enough AD. But ALL of the Shivs and Daggers were gone, except two each re-posted by the same account at 790k and 800k. A few days later, there were dozens again and I got my Shiv for 153k. The ones at 790 and 800k were still there, expiring in 13 hours 24 minutes. Someone lost a large posting fee! LOL!
So just because you post something for a stupid price does not mean it will sell. I would not have paid 800k. EVER. I'd rather run the dungeon, but if it dropped, it's MINE. Unless there is another TR in the group, in which case the NEED roll decides. Any other class can adopt a more mature attitude and take their licks and take their knocks like every other responsible adult still playing CRPGs.
That is all.
The identical thing happened to us when doing Frozen Heart for the first time as sub lvl 60 characters; after explicitly asking prior to entering if they were doing a greed run and to please drop out if they intend to rush to the finish line just to get their greed drop. So not only with trying to manage expectations and asking politely to respect the other lower non-60 lvl 16k+ Gear Score elitists, they still proceeded to leave us behind, spawning massive mobs in their wake as we tried to keep up and were easily overtaken, both by the mobs and the unexpected cut scenes they trigger.
Toleration is a form of Consent. Perfect world needed to understand this, and how it can be cancerous to an online community.
The only recourse is to join/create a guild and connect with other likeminded players, and avoid those who simply cannot spend one iota of their time assisting another for the benefit of others. Lessons learned are to never give up party leader for any reason, and examine gear score/profile prior to inviting.
And is the 3rd option (PASS) broken or something? Nothing wrong with saying 'I've got enough for now, thanks'.
This.
It's to entice the well geared players into coming into PUG groups to "help" gear people. The only thing you can count on is the loot from your personal chest. Sadly, most people wouldn't help a PUG group at all without having some sort of incentive to go. The chance to "greed" on a 500K-1M AD helm is the proverbial carrot on the stick.
There is logic to what you say. I won’t argue that. Perhaps I come from a different mentality. I play another Cryptic game (STO) and to be honest I don’t even know why there’s a greed button at all as everyone.. EVERYONE hits NEED for EVERY drop. At least in NW you can’t ‘need’ for an out-of-class item, giving some sense of balance, but in STO every drop can be used by every class, so they ALL ‘need’ it. It’s so frustrating to me for some reason.
When I first joined MMORPGS with a need/greed system we used it accordingly. Hell, even if a need was outrolled the winner may sometimes offer it to the loser… now it just seems greed rules.
I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday and I have come to the conclusion that, although frustrating at times, it is what it is. I, myself, have greed-rolled a few non-class items with the full intention of selling and, again, since I can’t ‘need’ an out-of-class item it’s all moot.
LOL... i see where you are coming from here too. I was just trying to help you out b/c DC items are woefully underpriced. The community is down on DCs because they don't understand the value of a good DC. Personally i think 4 good players + DC > Four good players + almost anything else, assuming other important roles are filled.
I was just trying to help you out.
Normally if someone actually needs an item, we discuss before hand. Maybe the team just wants them to have that item, fine. Sometimes though it's for a 4th or 5th alt, which at that point the person, out of courtesy, will pay their share.
Now, considering that you can get everything except CN weapons as BOP, this is essentially a non issue, as everyone prefers to sell the BOE version and farm the BOP version, at least those who are actively farming instances. No one as far as i know has attempted to split boon books (because they might use them), but some people have split belts.
That said with good communication every group can work things out. The question is what happens in the absence of good communication.
And LOL people paying 800k for CN TR weapons is so Mod 1. No one does that anymore XD XD People can be so silly and greedy.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Please don't be a greedy selfish narrow-minded player. If it is a greed run, you must respect the rules.
If that is your prerogative, then go look for need runs.
I do hope that people kick you at the end boss if you try and pull that schtick on a greed run.
But, as I have said repeatedly, I never do GRRRREEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNNSSSSSSS!!!!!! (drool) because I am not greedy, selfish, narrow-minded, childish, immature or greedy. And I do not want to steal gear from another class, so I will not have them stealing mine.
I will repeat what I already said in this thread, not only for you but for everybody:
"I think the word GREED should be replaced bij another one like 'equal chance for everybody' because as I see many ppl do not understand the meaning behind this word. Greed in general is a negative word but it is not in this loot-contex. When you run a dungeon you do it normally for yourself and not to pleasure the others. You do it to get nice stuff. Everybody wants nice stuff (to sell it or for yourself, that's up to you). Then the most adecuate thing to do is to click "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" so that that everybody has the same chances to get that nice loot. Neverwinter has opted for the word GREED for that matter."
Oh, I agree. DC damage is also woefully under-dps'd as well! And their CC Resistance is non-existent. And half their Powers do not benefit from Crit Strike and ArPen! But that is another thread.
At least the buffs and heals work, for what they are. But they can make a big difference if the entire team has about the same GS. But the team also has to know they they need to be close by to benefit from the AC Healer - and she needs to be defended by people who have some dps. A good enemy team in PvP always focuses me first, though. THEN they go for Warlocks, CWs and GWFs. Especially when they see how fast she can cast Astral Shield and Hallowed Ground, with her ferocious INT, CHA and Recovery speed. And with the Profound, she'l get an extra 2.5% healing and Divinity regeneration!
Thing is, I started with a Tielfling AC and a Dwarf AC and re-speced them a few times and spent a lot of Glory, stones and AD on their gear, artifacts and Companions. Then I bought more character slots for a change of pace and to level up some leadership mules. I now have 12 level 60s, 1 level 39 SW and a level 1 SW still at the first camp fire, plus one free slot.
And I keep changing my Main character, so it can be expensive on resources. But at least four of them have Rank 20 leadership now!
So, I made a Virtuous/Righteous Dwarf DO Berserker War Priest for solo play, and he was main for quite a while. Not too bad in PvP, either.
Then I re-raced a Halfling WK into a Dragonborn to reset her initial rolls, and also geared up my Halfling MI, and they were my mains for a while. Now, I am back to my Tiefling Healer AC. Thought I'd get the remaining Sharandar boons on her.
But, really, if you focus on a single character, it will become uber-powered and you will only be fit for GREEEEDDDD runs as there will be nothing else worth your time. But that's fine if you are teamed with other 21k uber-characters. But if you have newer players, let then Need on stuff. You will feel a better man for it. The Moral High Ground will raise you up.
Yesterday, we were against a PvP party that had a 21k CW with five Legendaries (not YOU was it?
And I get about 100k AD per day just from doing leadership 3 times a day on 12 characters. I spent the last two days buying nothing but Marks of Potency - still refining all those enchants and runes from the Pinata. Shame I did not have the time to bash them before Double Refining Weekend!
No one cares or minds if your Guild is 21k with five legendaries and you do Greed runs in the top three dungeons - you aren't hurting anyone. The problem is with situations like the OP mentioned, where he is doing a dungeon and suddenly the pugs think he should be Greeding instead of Needing. Or people get kicked.
Legit Channel (mostly) will not kick people unless they go against what they agreed to and do it repeatedly. And they do not insist on a minimum GS and will take newbies so the newbies get some experience of these dungeons. That is the Bright Side of the Force.
But the Dark Side is when they insist on Greed runs as a "fee" from the lower-geared characters. But that is exploiting the players and just as much perverting the intent of the design of the coding as going through a hole in a wall, shooting a dragon over the top of a gate, suiciding at a camp fire or running straight through to the end. But I think exploiting players is worse than exploiting PWE's code and such practices do not belong in a channel that calls itself "Legit".
And with 21k GS and five Legendary artifacts and artifact gear, do you REALLY need that AD? Don't you have Multiple Leadership Mules, or are you one of the F2Pers from Open Beta with only two free characters on your account?
Didn't realize that opting for the 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY option meant stealing gear from another class.
Either way, that is a good policy in asking for the preferred type of run amongst your party members. Otherwise, nobody should fault anyone for kicking you at the last boss for needing during a greed run
But, after reading through this topic, it makes a good deal more sense. If nothing else, it enforces the need for clear loot ruling prior to entering the dungeon.
Thank you OP, for asking the question, and to all the posters who argued so hard to answer it.
We'll here's the thing. Greed runs have gotten so overwhelmingly popular because so many people just prefer doing it that style (for obvious reasons; ie scour the thread) that they forget to explicitly mention it at the beginning of the run thus causing confusion and fights.
This is why I'm lobbying to just get rid of the "need" button because you put new players at risk for being kicked, insulted etc for not knowing the code when they really aren't at fault because they were just following the default loot rules, no matter how stupid it is.
That would of course, but (IMO) even better would to allow a need item that binds any item won by it making it unsellable to vendors or on the AH and also un-salvageable. Then again, given the existence of personal chests, just removing 'Need' altogether would be a much simpler system to implement....
I think the personal chests should used instead for that reason. The epic drop from the final boss is worth more in the auction house than when equipped to a player. I also like the idea that completing a dungeon drops a valuable BOE loot that is either split among your friends or greeded upon by a random party.
Cryptic might not remove the "NEED" button because it is a proprietary D&D reference or something along those veins.
In that case, I am in favor of making it bind-on-pickup, have zero gold value and have zero salvage value.
I'm not talking about premade groups that come together to run dungeons as they normal state the rules before hand, and if you don't agree with the rule run, you can leave which in turn doesn't waste anybodies time and patience. But if I que for a random pug dungeon and people forcing me to greed, sorry it will not happen, go back to your premade groups if you want to do that, stop forcing pug dungeons runners to agree to your (x) rules cause you want an item, if you don't like then go join the premade groups and don't pug.
No.
Your channel originator (Bioshrike) has repeatedly said that there is no channel loot rule, and that parties should discuss this amongst themselves prior to a run.
That individuals attempt to claim that there is an official channel loot rule is wrong. There isn't one. There might be a majority preference, but that's not the same as a RULE.
Neverwinter Census 2017
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I do hope Cryptic Studios puts in a 'Bound on Need' option... but I do not see that really stopping people from trying to enforce the 'greed runs' as a general community group rule. The main reason for the greed rule is (as some have stated) AD for time spent in a given instance. People are still going to frown on people rolling need and 'robbing them' of profit.
Not sure if I want to group anymore. I do not have the time to 'farm AD' to get gear from the AH that drops in dungeons. I also tend to be on the low side more often than naught. I run dungeons to get upgrades.. not to get other people 'my gear' to sell to me.
Ah, but pay me no mind. If it works, it works reguardless of how I feel about it.
Well they have to state it first at the start of the run. If majority of the group agrees to a greed run, then you either are forced to follow it or you leave the group at the start and find a new one to fit your preferred loot rule.
Otherwise, the protocol is to kick you at the end of the greed run for needing on an item and acting selfish. Questions?
20% equal chance for everybody to grab the loot is greedy? Gotcha.
Anyway, the premise of your argument is completely flawed. Everyone who enters dungeons wants to get something out of it. Therefore, need runs consist of greedy people as well
People who wants fairness for all party member came up with this..
Greed run = equal chance of loot disregard of class ratio in the party.
Need run = unfair chance for class with number of more than 1 in the party. i.e if party consist of 4 cw 1 HR, when CW item drop..those 4 cw would have to share the chance while the HR got an increase chance in getting drop due to 100% chance for his own.
Do the math.. and yea..ppl set this rule for a reason.
BTW Though i see the fairness in greed run but i still worried for item like artifact belt when drop. I think the best way to deal with cheater is to restructure the greed rule to greed on epic & above weapon and armor part only since the belt, ring & necklace can be need by every1. Since most ppl in the comunity hasnt seen this point yet and is used to greed on all, i advice to hold your roll 1st and advice your party to need on item such as artifact belt to avoid QQ. Oh yea..and let the leader roll 1st..since he is able to kick ppl w/o ppl able to kick him in SoT run.