Most players use the /lfg channel or the /legit channel to find groups.
If you are however part of the sector of the audience who just randomly queues up for the dungeon, you may state it at the start of the run what type of Need/Greed rules the party wishes to agree upon.
The argument isn't for people who use the lfg or legit channels, it's for people who use the queue system to impose their wills. Again, read the entire thread.
And again, the argument is you shouldn't have to queue up for a dungeon and then pop in there and reset a rule set that is working just fine.
And how often does a pugger have to say anything before they end up fighting from beginning to end of the dungeon.
I'm truly done discussing this with all of you, it's a simple ruleset a 2 year old can understand. It's not something new to Neverwinter, it is in EVERY MMO.
Try expanding your MMO library and you'll see, this is nothing new. In other games this has been fixed to stop all the whining from people who just can't understand such a simple system.
So with that said, I'm done, time for me to leave you all here to your vitriol.
And how often does a pugger have to say anything before they end up fighting from beginning to end of the dungeon.
Type in party chat at the beginning? I'm sure we could expect level 60s to be able to do that yes?
You realize that dungeons aren't 5 seconds long right? There is enough time at the beginning to state the ruleset of the group if everyone agrees. It really is that simple.
For those saying that the "Greed system" was invented by Greedy players, i would advice you guys to start assessing situations before going on about accusing others based of somethings you know nothing about.
The "Greed system" was invented to make things fair for everyone during any run, (During beta-to release, Players use to spend 30-50 minutes doing a whole dungeon just to get to the end, and have the boss drop a loot that only 1 player from the party can get, so if it was a CW gear then the CW is definitly going to need on it, so in this case the other 4 players just spent all that time clearing that dungeon for nothing, and that not fun) that means everytime you did a dungeon only 1 players has a chance of getting the loot, while the other 4 players are basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
That is when the idea of "Greed runs" kicked in, we basically got tired, and decided to find a way in which everyone has a fair chance of getting the loot that dropped, no one has an advantage or a disadvantage, the probability depends on the party, if it a 5 man party then the probability is 1 out of 5, everyone in the party gets this odds, this way everyone has a chance at getting the loot regardless of class.
So now if you still think the "Greed system" is a greedy system, then have you ever thought that the greedy one might you?
Also for those saying "Need it, if you need", i guess you are new to this game, and have never heard of ninjers, to this game, such a system would never be fair to the rest of the party, i cant even remember how many times someone has need on loot, and said they need it and ended up selling it in the AH for AD.
Do you guys actually think someone is going to pass or greed on an item if they dont need to? especially if the item is an expensive item?
Do you think a Warlock is going to Greed on a good warlock item when they can sell it for AD? This is the problem with the community, too many players crying and complaining about things they dont understand.
You dont have to do Greed runs, but when someone joins a Greed run i dont care if they need the item, they have to Greed, and if they dont they are getting booted out.
The Greed runs were formed to help protect us, some of us understand this, but i guess others just like to whine.
Now take this as you will, if you dont agree with this, then dont do greed runs, when you join a party ask them if it a Greed, and if they say yes then leave party, the same goes for when you pug dungeons.
For those saying that the "Greed system" was invented by Greedy players, i would advice you guys to start assessing situations before going on about accusing others based of somethings you know nothing about.
The "Greed system" was invented to make things fair for everyone during any run, (During beta-to release, Players use to spend 30-50 minutes doing a whole dungeon just to get to the end, and have the boss drop a loot that only 1 player from the party can get, so if it was a CW gear then the CW is definitly going to need on it, so in this case the other 4 players just spent all that time clearing that dungeon for nothing, and that not fun) that means everytime you did a dungeon only 1 players has a chance of getting the loot, while the other 4 players are basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Very true.
The past few months when I actually did dungeons, my preferred method are split runs. Someone gets the item, sells it on the auction house and we all split the loot. This is not an ideal way unless you are in a guild that you trust however so the greed run option is the next best thing for most players.
Again, everyone gets 20% chance at the loot during greed runs. If you don't call that fair, then you probably need a dictionary.
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berylgreenMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 66
edited October 2014
I use the queue tool for most dungeons. It is there for a reason. I use it in my other MMO, it works well there, and I do not have a lot of faith in LFG here, yet. If rules/preferences are stated at the beginning, I follow those. Otherwise, I watch what everyone else is rolling. If two rolled Need, one Greed, one Passed, but the item would be an upgrade for me, I will roll Need. If the item is not usable by my class, I pass, hoping someone who could really use the item will win the roll. *shrugs* If everyone rolls Greed, I will also roll Greed, on rare or Epic items. I pass on all green items, at level 60.
If an item is an upgrade for me, and I win it – I am wearing it! Also, if it is something which looks really cool, such as a pirate hat, I am wearing it.
It sounds as if many of you feel that everyone should Greed everything, and then buy the needed items later at the AH. I disagree with this thinking, but I do agree that rules should be set up at the beginning of a run.
I use the queue tool for most dungeons. It is there for a reason. I use it in my other MMO, it works well there, and I do not have a lot of faith in LFG here, yet. If rules/preferences are stated at the beginning, I follow those. Otherwise, I watch what everyone else is rolling. If two rolled Need, one Greed, one Passed, but the item would be an upgrade for me, I will roll Need. If the item is not usable by my class, I pass, hoping someone who could really use the item will win the roll. *shrugs* If everyone rolls Greed, I will also roll Greed, on rare or Epic items. I pass on all green items, at level 60.
If an item is an upgrade for me, and I win it – I am wearing it! Also, if it is something which looks really cool, such as a pirate hat, I am wearing it.
It sounds as if many of you feel that everyone should Greed everything, and then buy the needed items later at the AH. I disagree with this thinking, but I do agree that rules should be set up at the beginning of a run.
There are dungeon delve chests that are exclusive to each player.
Otherwise, the value of a BOE loot is much higher if it was sold in the AH than it is when a player simply equips it. Now that does not justify greed runs over need runs in itself, but that is a factor that you need to consider when making those arguments.
But the best way is to follow the rules set up at the start of the party.
Again, never said that, try reading the entire thread before posting, it will do wonders for you.
Have read the whole thread, you are saying if you need the item the rest of the group shoulnt get a chance at it.
That is what needing is.
Maybe you should check up on game mechanics before posting, it will do wonders for you.
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dragoness10Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 780Arc User
edited October 2014
Don't feed the trolls. Close thread please.
" I tried to figure out the enigma that was you, and then I realized mastering Wild Magic was easier." - Old Wizard in Waterdeep
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you are unaware of how the system in place works. A group aka a team is a group of people working together to complete a goal. That goal is actually to complete the dungeon not get loot at the end. That is the +1 for completing for that very special snowflake who the loot is for. Again, that 1 person is not being selfish if they actually can wear the item in question and it is an upgrade, like someone previously posted, marginal or not.
And to help you understand the definition of greed:
greed
ɡrēd/
noun
noun: greed
intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
That one person that is pressing Need for an item is in fact not being greedy. And to help you understand what a need is:
need
nēd/
verb
1.
require (something) because it is essential or very important.
2.
expressing necessity or obligation.
By you saying that 1 person is being greedy, you are trying to impose your own greed to someone else. If loot is so important to you, make some friends, run the dungeon, problem-solved. Don't under any circumstances use the queue.
When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!
The point of running a dungeon is to get loot. Pure and simple.
Welcome back ignorance! Oh how I love arguing with these need-proponents!
Everyone gets a 20% chance at the loot. Everyone participated in the dungeon. Everyone wants to get something out of the dungeon run and not be a feeder for the progression of other players.
How the system works? You go on your little need runs, while the rest of the community goes on greed runs. If you need in a greed run, I do hope someone kicks you for being selfish. And please, nobody really needs anything in a videogame. Nobody will starve to death if they don't get their mainhand. Everyone is playing this VIDEOGAME to get VIRTUAL ITEMS.
Don't put the needs of 1 player above the others. Flaws in your logic everywhere.
Agreed, how is it possible that we are entitled by demanding fairness?
Saying one person is more important than the others is not fair to anyone.
Maybe you should try reading all the way through, cause if you got to the bottom of my post you would have read this, here I copied and pasted so it's easier for you.
"When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!"
Sometimes you go into a dungeon and get nothing, sometimes you get something you can sale. RNG is RNG. if you're old enough to go to Las Vegas, do you walk into a casino and demand they give you equal odds to win, after all, everyone there is there to win, so you all deserve equal odds, right?
The house has better odds, just like cryptic does, but every PLAYER in a casino has the same odds, do they not?
What may be considered a waste to you, is not a waste to that person that is actually wearing it. Again, if you're not here to help other players gear up, then don't queue. Simple, discussion over. Use that channel the devs have given you called...Looking for Group, but don't queue for a dungeon and expect someone to follow the same player-created rule sets as you.
Here's a news flash for all you greeders, if Cryptic wanted dungeon runs to be as you say they should be, they would not have the N,G,P system in place.
You assume the rest of the player base is playing for the same purpose as you, they are not.
You also assume that your purpose is somewhat superior to other peoples. Who are you to say such a thing?
The purpose of a dungeon run, whether to use an item, sell and item, or salvage an item is to get loot. If there was no loot, why would people run it hundreds of times?
The argument isn't for people who use the lfg or legit channels, it's for people who use the queue system to impose their wills. Again, read the entire thread.
And again, the argument is you shouldn't have to queue up for a dungeon and then pop in there and reset a rule set that is working just fine.
And how often does a pugger have to say anything before they end up fighting from beginning to end of the dungeon.
I'm truly done discussing this with all of you, it's a simple ruleset a 2 year old can understand. It's not something new to Neverwinter, it is in EVERY MMO.
Try expanding your MMO library and you'll see, this is nothing new. In other games this has been fixed to stop all the whining from people who just can't understand such a simple system.
So with that said, I'm done, time for me to leave you all here to your vitriol.
*drops the mic and walks out*
Use queue system - I think i would rather dunk my balls in a vat of poisonous wasps. No thank you.
For those saying that the "Greed system" was invented by Greedy players, i would advice you guys to start assessing situations before going on about accusing others based of somethings you know nothing about.
The "Greed system" was invented to make things fair for everyone during any run, (During beta-to release, Players use to spend 30-50 minutes doing a whole dungeon just to get to the end, and have the boss drop a loot that only 1 player from the party can get, so if it was a CW gear then the CW is definitly going to need on it, so in this case the other 4 players just spent all that time clearing that dungeon for nothing, and that not fun) that means everytime you did a dungeon only 1 players has a chance of getting the loot, while the other 4 players are basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
That is when the idea of "Greed runs" kicked in, we basically got tired, and decided to find a way in which everyone has a fair chance of getting the loot that dropped, no one has an advantage or a disadvantage, the probability depends on the party, if it a 5 man party then the probability is 1 out of 5, everyone in the party gets this odds, this way everyone has a chance at getting the loot regardless of class.
So now if you still think the "Greed system" is a greedy system, then have you ever thought that the greedy one might you?
Also for those saying "Need it, if you need", i guess you are new to this game, and have never heard of ninjers, to this game, such a system would never be fair to the rest of the party, i cant even remember how many times someone has need on loot, and said they need it and ended up selling it in the AH for AD.
Do you guys actually think someone is going to pass or greed on an item if they dont need to? especially if the item is an expensive item?
Do you think a Warlock is going to Greed on a good warlock item when they can sell it for AD? This is the problem with the community, too many players crying and complaining about things they dont understand.
You dont have to do Greed runs, but when someone joins a Greed run i dont care if they need the item, they have to Greed, and if they dont they are getting booted out.
The Greed runs were formed to help protect us, some of us understand this, but i guess others just like to whine.
Now take this as you will, if you dont agree with this, then dont do greed runs, when you join a party ask them if it a Greed, and if they say yes then leave party, the same goes for when you pug dungeons.
While I know that you and I differ on CW philosophy, seriously dude, +1/10 characters. Don't mind helping people, hate being used and taken advantage of.
I use the queue tool for most dungeons. It is there for a reason. I use it in my other MMO, it works well there, and I do not have a lot of faith in LFG here, yet. If rules/preferences are stated at the beginning, I follow those. Otherwise, I watch what everyone else is rolling. If two rolled Need, one Greed, one Passed, but the item would be an upgrade for me, I will roll Need. If the item is not usable by my class, I pass, hoping someone who could really use the item will win the roll. *shrugs* If everyone rolls Greed, I will also roll Greed, on rare or Epic items. I pass on all green items, at level 60.
If an item is an upgrade for me, and I win it – I am wearing it! Also, if it is something which looks really cool, such as a pirate hat, I am wearing it.
It sounds as if many of you feel that everyone should Greed everything, and then buy the needed items later at the AH. I disagree with this thinking, but I do agree that rules should be set up at the beginning of a run.
I don't think we are suggesting buying at AH, we are saying get it from the chest where i'ts BoP. If you get the BOE version, that compromises the fairness to others.
I want you to get your upgrade and play well. If you happen to play a CW, I want you to read my guide to play better. I would be very happy to get the player base stronger and more geared, just not at the expense of being unfair to teammates.
That "rule", especially in guilds, about choosing "greed" for everything is a bit odd to me.
I find it least odd in a guild for one simple reason: equipping a droppable item is inefficient even if it is your class and you won the greed roll. To step this back, your sentiment is "why don't people behave as if they care more about their guildees", but if you take that to something I have experience with, "why don't people behave like they are playing with good friends?" Like pretend one person was directing the loot for the entire group with min/maxing in mind. You will come to the conclusion you and your 4 friends should sell everything you can for your own sakes, because of the fact that getting a no drop version of a loot is relatively easy, and you need much AD to get all the coal wards you and your friends need. That is why a guild should always use greed.
Someone on this thread said, "most people don't need the items", but that isn't the entire story. In opportunity cost it is equivalent to buying your gear in the auction house if you don't sell it in the auction house. It would be meaningless, but for the asymmetry in the drop rates of bind on equip vs bind on loot. You need to exploit that asymmetry when playing with friends and guildees.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
I find it least odd in a guild for one simple reason: equipping a droppable item is inefficient even if it is your class and you won the greed roll. To step this back, your sentiment is "why don't people behave as if they care more about their guildees", but if you take that to something I have experience with, "why don't people behave like they are playing with good friends?" Like pretend one person was directing the loot for the entire group with min/maxing in mind. You will come to the conclusion you and your 4 friends should sell everything you can for your own sakes, because of the fact that getting a no drop version of a loot is relatively easy, and you need much AD to get all the coal wards you and your friends need. That is why a guild should always use greed.
Someone on this thread said, "most people don't need the items", but that isn't the entire story. In opportunity cost it is equivalent to buying your gear in the auction house if you don't sell it in the auction house. It would be meaningless, but for the asymmetry in the drop rates of bind on equip vs bind on loot. You need to exploit that asymmetry when playing with friends and guildees.
For some reason people expect you to greed on boss loot in dungeons. I find this baffling.
Lets say the boss drops an item for my class, an item which is better than what I have, which I intend to use, which I NEED. Why would someone expect me to "greed" on it? He/she cant use it and just want to sell it on the AH for, well no better word to say it - greed.
We play a game. We run dungeons for fun and to get nice new shinny things for our toon. I never cared for any loot I cant use, and I never cared for the AH. I just enjoy the game. why other people can't?
Edit: typos.
It's fairly simple: without that rule no high end geared player would ever step in a lower dungeon again. So you'd have to do Valindra with 10-12k GS players, instead of 17-20k ones. So basically you wouldn't have a shot at that loot, unless every member would get the most of their gear and class, which rarely happens.
Bottom line: the better geared you become, the more you understand the "fairness" in "1 button for all loot".
And, specifically because of points of view like yours high end geared players are avoiding partying with low geared players on general principles, so they wouldn't go "but i NEED it" before the open chest.
Its kind of weird here, on Cryptic's other game STO it has a Need/Greed system and everyone just needs on everything and nobody cares if you need on everything for the most part. Everyone just spams need to make the pop up go away so they can resume killing, nobody gives much thought to the loot system compared to here where people try to set up their own loot rules to get around the games loot system.
I don't do LFG much but I would follow rules going into it before hand, but if I am in the public queue I will need on everything possible. Public queue to me means we go by the games default rules, no special loot rules so need everything. I only do public queue on my GF because of fast pops so I tend to end up in groups without a GF that need me to finish, if they try to tell me greed I will never agree and will just tell them to try do this without a tank then.
.......That is when the idea of "Greed runs" kicked in, we basically got tired, and decided to find a way in which everyone has a fair chance of getting the loot that dropped, no one has an advantage or a disadvantage, the probability depends on the party, if it a 5 man party then the probability is 1 out of 5, everyone in the party gets this odds, this way everyone has a chance at getting the loot regardless of class.
The only way that this para-phrase holds any water is if everyone was honest from the start, and assumes the fact that none of the 5 players in this PUG really don't know each other, and if that holds true then there would not be.....
A) No one complaining that they didn't get this or that
No one would get vote kicked because what one person complains about should have no baring or un-due influence on another persons decision weather to kick someone.
Eg. If your in a dungeon and you think the tank isn't doing his/her job for some reason that's your opinion but if others haven't had a problem then how is it that they get voted off the island.
If the group is getting to the end boss, it may have took a little time to get there but the " Group " got there just the same, so the group must have done something right.
IMHO, you can use the term PUG in the context of not knowing one another but IMHO PUGS always have a few friends incognito.
I would love to go to Vegas and feel I had a fair chance....and if anyone thinks that they do they are deluding themselves Vegas like anything else is a business you will get what they want you to get, but not before they get most of what you have first. This way when they do decide to let you win, you may feel the tides are turning but all your getting is what you already had before you lost it, Ergo, the term.... I broke even.
Cheers!
P.S. The moment the Devs designed a score card to be viewed at the end of a dungeon that was the catalyst for all these future complaints, just because someone sees they have higher numbers then the next person they get a superiority complex. In all honesty that is the last thing I am worrying about when I get into a dungeon with a group, friends or PUGS is looking at that score card at the end of it.
You can have a great MVP on a sports team but throw that MVP in/on by themselves and they are nothing, There is no " I " in team.
So when grouping in anything, friends or strangers it's a group effort lets remember that.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2014
IMO, if the devs really wanted to foster a better community here, they'd simply make a copy of the item drop for each member of the party - then there'd be no ninja-ing or other insanity going on.
Being that this is unlikely to happen, my next point would be that if everyone is doing their part on the team, why shouldn't they all get a fair shot at all items that drop? This is compounded by the fact that certain pieces of gear only drop from certain bosses, and some teams only run a portion of a dungeon - so some classes would never get a shot at their equipment.
I'd also like to see a roll/pass loot mode added, a loot-vote system initiated at the beginning of a dungeon run, and vote-kicking limited to a "hard majority" of a team - so 3/5, 3/4, 2/3, etc.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
I find it amusing that people are running around calling people who say "Need it if you need it" newbies and have never played this game before. I find it amusing because I've been here since closed Beta and have played multiple level 60s. Also, I've been playing MMOs since they first came out. So really... Who's the "newb" now?
Seriously though. If the group decides they want to do Greed all purples... That's entirely up to the person who formed the group to begin with. Like I said earlier, MY groups are Need it if you need it. If I join someone elses group and they want it Greed on all purple items, then I'm fine with that as well. If you que via the system and get thrown in with a bunch of random people, then anything is fair game really unless everyone stops, and agrees to rules. If you disagree with the rules, then you can always drop group and re-que. I DO find it funny that I've had people join my groups and argue with me about loot rolls after I made it abundantly clear at the onset that it's Need it if you need it... AFTER the 500k+ AD item drops and someone else gets it. I wonder if they would have squawked as loudly if it had been an item they wanted and they got to Need it? Probably not is my guess. I've also had people threaten me that they'd drop group if I didn't make everyone in my groups Greed on all purple items... Again, AFTER I stated my loot rules at the onset. I even had at least one cleric do that to me. My response to those folks were all the same, I calmly explained that I had already explained the loot rules at the beginning and that I dislike being threatened by anyone. Then I booted them from the group. It's funny in a way because I've yet to have a single one of my T2 runs fail. With or without those folks and that includes those clerics.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
I think the word GREED should be replaced bij another one like 'equal chance for everybody' because as I see many ppl do not understand the meaning behind this word. Greed in general is a negative word but it is not in this loot-contex. When you run a dungeon you do it normally for yourself and not to pleasure the others. You do it to get nice stuff. Everybody wants nice stuff (to sell it of for yourself, that's up to you). Then the most adecuate thing to do is to click "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" so that that everybody has the same chances to get that nice loot. Neverwinter has opted for the word GREED for that matter.
The moment the Devs designed a score card to be viewed at the end of a dungeon that was the catalyst for all these future complaints, just because someone sees they have higher numbers then the next person they get a superiority complex.
Yes. My War Priest DO gets slagged off if he out-damages a low-geared CW or GWF, and my AC Healer/Buffer gets slagged off because she is almost always bottom Paingiver and Executioner.
If there was also a measurable stat for Champion Buffer and Champion Debuffer, people would appreciate the role of a DC much more.
But I still play Legit and by the rules. So that means I Need on what I can Need on, or they can continue with no Priest at all and die in the Boss room. Cryptic set the RNG, and abiding by the RNG is the only way to play the game Legit. Otherwise, it's abusive and Exploitative.
If you do not get a drop for your class, the intent and design of the game is that you run the dungeon again.
Perverting that by forcing GRREEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! on under-geared players is Illegit, an Exploit and an Abuse of the intent of the coding.
Just like getting through a gap in a wall, standing in a place where you cannot be damaged or shooting at a Boss over the top of the Boss Room Gate.
I think the word GREED should be replaced bij another one like 'equal chance for everybody' because as I see many ppl do not understand the meaning behind this word. Greed in general is a negative word but it is not in this loot-contex. When you run a dungeon you do it normally for yourself and not to pleasure the others. You do it to get nice stuff. Everybody wants nice stuff (to sell it of for yourself, that's up to you). Then the most adecuate thing to do is to click "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" so that that everybody has the same chances to get that nice loot. Neverwinter has opted for the word GREED for that matter.
Yes, I agree with that.
It seems people just freak out by the word "greed run".
Let's all rename the runs into "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" runs. Sounds much much better despite the fact that it is the same thing.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
That would make me sad, but then I remembered this story:
One day when me and friends were first gearing up in Karrandax, the exact T2 arm I wanted dropped off the dragon. My cleric friend tried to get me to take them, I said, "naw you sell them I would just sell them myself if I had won the roll." He reluctantly took them. Later that day, I saw he had them priced to low on the auction house at 130k. I bought them and flipped them for an extra 50k. 3 missions later I got the arms I wanted out of the chest.
Had I been behaving like you and your friends, I would have took those droppable arms because they were exactly what I wanted, bound them to myself, not helped my friend get 130k, and still got the arms 3 missions later, and refined them for 8k because they were bound on pickup, so now we got arms and 8k, where as in the "Sad for your friends way" we would have got ~130k and the same arms.
But your sad for us?
You are probably thinking... "no I would have passed on the loots too!" Right. So you would behaved like us, but you don't expect your friends to behave like you? Well you might say, "I am not the taker but I have no expectations for my friends and would be happy if they took". Fair enough, but do you know what you have when all your friends are you? You have my friends. The ones you had pity for... When none of your friends are the taker and all of your friends are the giver, you greed...
This kind of stuff is what most groups do. When we are addressing the word PUG it implies stuff like this is _NOT_ going on.
Yes. My War Priest DO gets slagged off if he out-damages a low-geared CW or GWF, and my AC Healer/Buffer gets slagged off because she is almost always bottom Paingiver and Executioner.
If there was also a measurable stat for Champion Buffer and Champion Debuffer, people would appreciate the role of a DC much more.
But I still play Legit and by the rules. So that means I Need on what I can Need on, or they can continue with no Priest at all and die in the Boss room. Cryptic set the RNG, and abiding by the RNG is the only way to play the game Legit. Otherwise, it's abusive and Exploitative.
If you do not get a drop for your class, the intent and design of the game is that you run the dungeon again.
Perverting that by forcing GRREEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! on under-geared players is Illegit, an Exploit and an Abuse of the intent of the coding.
Just like getting through a gap in a wall, standing in a place where you cannot be damaged or shooting at a Boss over the top of the Boss Room Gate.
:mad:
I'm sorry, what planet are you on? This is like saying someone choosing something different than you exploiting? I'm so confused here.
And maybe you run with idiots who don't appreciate DC, but my DC can double team DPS and keep them alive, who wouldn't want that? A good DC is amazing and valuable and it's only the idiots that don't understand that.
And when they blame the DC, remember. You can't heal stupid.
Lol the responeses im reading that are against the Greed system makes me sad
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesnt need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i dont need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
The vets know the AD grind is real. If you read all these threads, that is the common theme. Its not really an equality issue, its the need for AD to buy refining items and other random stuff.
But again, COMMUNICATE the loot rules at start of dungeon and follow those rules.
Comments
The argument isn't for people who use the lfg or legit channels, it's for people who use the queue system to impose their wills. Again, read the entire thread.
And again, the argument is you shouldn't have to queue up for a dungeon and then pop in there and reset a rule set that is working just fine.
And how often does a pugger have to say anything before they end up fighting from beginning to end of the dungeon.
I'm truly done discussing this with all of you, it's a simple ruleset a 2 year old can understand. It's not something new to Neverwinter, it is in EVERY MMO.
Try expanding your MMO library and you'll see, this is nothing new. In other games this has been fixed to stop all the whining from people who just can't understand such a simple system.
So with that said, I'm done, time for me to leave you all here to your vitriol.
*drops the mic and walks out*
Type in party chat at the beginning? I'm sure we could expect level 60s to be able to do that yes?
You realize that dungeons aren't 5 seconds long right? There is enough time at the beginning to state the ruleset of the group if everyone agrees. It really is that simple.
oh and I forgot...
*drops the mic and walks out*
For those saying that the "Greed system" was invented by Greedy players, i would advice you guys to start assessing situations before going on about accusing others based of somethings you know nothing about.
The "Greed system" was invented to make things fair for everyone during any run, (During beta-to release, Players use to spend 30-50 minutes doing a whole dungeon just to get to the end, and have the boss drop a loot that only 1 player from the party can get, so if it was a CW gear then the CW is definitly going to need on it, so in this case the other 4 players just spent all that time clearing that dungeon for nothing, and that not fun) that means everytime you did a dungeon only 1 players has a chance of getting the loot, while the other 4 players are basically <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
That is when the idea of "Greed runs" kicked in, we basically got tired, and decided to find a way in which everyone has a fair chance of getting the loot that dropped, no one has an advantage or a disadvantage, the probability depends on the party, if it a 5 man party then the probability is 1 out of 5, everyone in the party gets this odds, this way everyone has a chance at getting the loot regardless of class.
So now if you still think the "Greed system" is a greedy system, then have you ever thought that the greedy one might you?
Also for those saying "Need it, if you need", i guess you are new to this game, and have never heard of ninjers, to this game, such a system would never be fair to the rest of the party, i cant even remember how many times someone has need on loot, and said they need it and ended up selling it in the AH for AD.
Do you guys actually think someone is going to pass or greed on an item if they dont need to? especially if the item is an expensive item?
Do you think a Warlock is going to Greed on a good warlock item when they can sell it for AD? This is the problem with the community, too many players crying and complaining about things they dont understand.
You dont have to do Greed runs, but when someone joins a Greed run i dont care if they need the item, they have to Greed, and if they dont they are getting booted out.
The Greed runs were formed to help protect us, some of us understand this, but i guess others just like to whine.
Now take this as you will, if you dont agree with this, then dont do greed runs, when you join a party ask them if it a Greed, and if they say yes then leave party, the same goes for when you pug dungeons.
Very true.
The past few months when I actually did dungeons, my preferred method are split runs. Someone gets the item, sells it on the auction house and we all split the loot. This is not an ideal way unless you are in a guild that you trust however so the greed run option is the next best thing for most players.
Again, everyone gets 20% chance at the loot during greed runs. If you don't call that fair, then you probably need a dictionary.
If an item is an upgrade for me, and I win it – I am wearing it!
It sounds as if many of you feel that everyone should Greed everything, and then buy the needed items later at the AH. I disagree with this thinking, but I do agree that rules should be set up at the beginning of a run.
There are dungeon delve chests that are exclusive to each player.
Otherwise, the value of a BOE loot is much higher if it was sold in the AH than it is when a player simply equips it. Now that does not justify greed runs over need runs in itself, but that is a factor that you need to consider when making those arguments.
But the best way is to follow the rules set up at the start of the party.
That is what needing is.
Maybe you should check up on game mechanics before posting, it will do wonders for you.
"Why is it dragons only use ketchup? I'd like a little wasabi please. Us silvers like a variety of condiments."
"Don't call them foolish mortals. One, they don't learn from it. Two, It just ticks them off." - An Ancient Red Dragon
The point of running a dungeon is to get loot. Pure and simple.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Agreed, how is it possible that we are entitled by demanding fairness?
Saying one person is more important than the others is not fair to anyone.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The house has better odds, just like cryptic does, but every PLAYER in a casino has the same odds, do they not?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You assume the rest of the player base is playing for the same purpose as you, they are not.
You also assume that your purpose is somewhat superior to other peoples. Who are you to say such a thing?
The purpose of a dungeon run, whether to use an item, sell and item, or salvage an item is to get loot. If there was no loot, why would people run it hundreds of times?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Use queue system - I think i would rather dunk my balls in a vat of poisonous wasps. No thank you.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
While I know that you and I differ on CW philosophy, seriously dude, +1/10 characters. Don't mind helping people, hate being used and taken advantage of.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I don't think we are suggesting buying at AH, we are saying get it from the chest where i'ts BoP. If you get the BOE version, that compromises the fairness to others.
I want you to get your upgrade and play well. If you happen to play a CW, I want you to read my guide to play better. I would be very happy to get the player base stronger and more geared, just not at the expense of being unfair to teammates.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I find it least odd in a guild for one simple reason: equipping a droppable item is inefficient even if it is your class and you won the greed roll. To step this back, your sentiment is "why don't people behave as if they care more about their guildees", but if you take that to something I have experience with, "why don't people behave like they are playing with good friends?" Like pretend one person was directing the loot for the entire group with min/maxing in mind. You will come to the conclusion you and your 4 friends should sell everything you can for your own sakes, because of the fact that getting a no drop version of a loot is relatively easy, and you need much AD to get all the coal wards you and your friends need. That is why a guild should always use greed.
Someone on this thread said, "most people don't need the items", but that isn't the entire story. In opportunity cost it is equivalent to buying your gear in the auction house if you don't sell it in the auction house. It would be meaningless, but for the asymmetry in the drop rates of bind on equip vs bind on loot. You need to exploit that asymmetry when playing with friends and guildees.
Someone here finally understands logic...
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Bottom line: the better geared you become, the more you understand the "fairness" in "1 button for all loot".
And, specifically because of points of view like yours high end geared players are avoiding partying with low geared players on general principles, so they wouldn't go "but i NEED it" before the open chest.
I don't do LFG much but I would follow rules going into it before hand, but if I am in the public queue I will need on everything possible. Public queue to me means we go by the games default rules, no special loot rules so need everything. I only do public queue on my GF because of fast pops so I tend to end up in groups without a GF that need me to finish, if they try to tell me greed I will never agree and will just tell them to try do this without a tank then.
The only way that this para-phrase holds any water is if everyone was honest from the start, and assumes the fact that none of the 5 players in this PUG really don't know each other, and if that holds true then there would not be.....
A) No one complaining that they didn't get this or that
Eg. If your in a dungeon and you think the tank isn't doing his/her job for some reason that's your opinion but if others haven't had a problem then how is it that they get voted off the island.
If the group is getting to the end boss, it may have took a little time to get there but the " Group " got there just the same, so the group must have done something right.
IMHO, you can use the term PUG in the context of not knowing one another but IMHO PUGS always have a few friends incognito.
I would love to go to Vegas and feel I had a fair chance....and if anyone thinks that they do they are deluding themselves Vegas like anything else is a business you will get what they want you to get, but not before they get most of what you have first. This way when they do decide to let you win, you may feel the tides are turning but all your getting is what you already had before you lost it, Ergo, the term.... I broke even.
Cheers!
P.S. The moment the Devs designed a score card to be viewed at the end of a dungeon that was the catalyst for all these future complaints, just because someone sees they have higher numbers then the next person they get a superiority complex. In all honesty that is the last thing I am worrying about when I get into a dungeon with a group, friends or PUGS is looking at that score card at the end of it.
You can have a great MVP on a sports team but throw that MVP in/on by themselves and they are nothing, There is no " I " in team.
So when grouping in anything, friends or strangers it's a group effort lets remember that.
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
Being that this is unlikely to happen, my next point would be that if everyone is doing their part on the team, why shouldn't they all get a fair shot at all items that drop? This is compounded by the fact that certain pieces of gear only drop from certain bosses, and some teams only run a portion of a dungeon - so some classes would never get a shot at their equipment.
I'd also like to see a roll/pass loot mode added, a loot-vote system initiated at the beginning of a dungeon run, and vote-kicking limited to a "hard majority" of a team - so 3/5, 3/4, 2/3, etc.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Seriously though. If the group decides they want to do Greed all purples... That's entirely up to the person who formed the group to begin with. Like I said earlier, MY groups are Need it if you need it. If I join someone elses group and they want it Greed on all purple items, then I'm fine with that as well. If you que via the system and get thrown in with a bunch of random people, then anything is fair game really unless everyone stops, and agrees to rules. If you disagree with the rules, then you can always drop group and re-que. I DO find it funny that I've had people join my groups and argue with me about loot rolls after I made it abundantly clear at the onset that it's Need it if you need it... AFTER the 500k+ AD item drops and someone else gets it. I wonder if they would have squawked as loudly if it had been an item they wanted and they got to Need it? Probably not is my guess. I've also had people threaten me that they'd drop group if I didn't make everyone in my groups Greed on all purple items... Again, AFTER I stated my loot rules at the onset. I even had at least one cleric do that to me. My response to those folks were all the same, I calmly explained that I had already explained the loot rules at the beginning and that I dislike being threatened by anyone. Then I booted them from the group. It's funny in a way because I've yet to have a single one of my T2 runs fail. With or without those folks and that includes those clerics.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Yes. My War Priest DO gets slagged off if he out-damages a low-geared CW or GWF, and my AC Healer/Buffer gets slagged off because she is almost always bottom Paingiver and Executioner.
If there was also a measurable stat for Champion Buffer and Champion Debuffer, people would appreciate the role of a DC much more.
But I still play Legit and by the rules. So that means I Need on what I can Need on, or they can continue with no Priest at all and die in the Boss room. Cryptic set the RNG, and abiding by the RNG is the only way to play the game Legit. Otherwise, it's abusive and Exploitative.
If you do not get a drop for your class, the intent and design of the game is that you run the dungeon again.
Perverting that by forcing GRREEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! on under-geared players is Illegit, an Exploit and an Abuse of the intent of the coding.
Just like getting through a gap in a wall, standing in a place where you cannot be damaged or shooting at a Boss over the top of the Boss Room Gate.
:mad:
Yes, I agree with that.
It seems people just freak out by the word "greed run".
Let's all rename the runs into "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY" runs. Sounds much much better despite the fact that it is the same thing.
This kind of stuff is what most groups do. When we are addressing the word PUG it implies stuff like this is _NOT_ going on.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I'm sorry, what planet are you on? This is like saying someone choosing something different than you exploiting? I'm so confused here.
And maybe you run with idiots who don't appreciate DC, but my DC can double team DPS and keep them alive, who wouldn't want that? A good DC is amazing and valuable and it's only the idiots that don't understand that.
And when they blame the DC, remember. You can't heal stupid.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1 /10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesnt need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i dont need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
The vets know the AD grind is real. If you read all these threads, that is the common theme. Its not really an equality issue, its the need for AD to buy refining items and other random stuff.
But again, COMMUNICATE the loot rules at start of dungeon and follow those rules.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas