All I can add, and its been mentioned repeatedly here in this thread; COMMUNICATION at the beginning of the run. It solves this dilemma unless you have a ninja or kickers, and those people should be blacklisted.
Agree with this comment, I will take it one step further, the intent should be in the LFG not brought up after the fact ( Entry ).
Why? for the simple fact that if I, you, or others spend their time in group and waiting for another to fill the Que that's time wasted you could find another group, then when you get into the dungeon all of a sudden someone gives the loot scheme, which wasn't in the LFG. I can't count the times I joined PUG groups that I only learned the loot scheme after I got in and by then it was too late to try and find another group run, fine for that group they are already in so if I leave makes not problems for them heck they may even be able to 4 man the run who knows.
And then what if you do Greed roll on a purple boss item and someone rolls need then what They get the item anyways even if you do kick them, you think they are going to hand it over after they get it for fear of getting kicked????
And you can suggest to opening a ticket to get it sorted out but TBO that hardly works if at all, and I know this from experience, sure you get the e-mail saying it is being looked into, and because of privacy issues ....Blah...Blah...Blah....
I have been in, and I am in this situation at this very moment, got the e-mail, it been a few days now, haven't got any other replies back saying anything, other then the suggestion to ignore the player ( Oo ) I have seen no recompense for the item that was stolen from me, due to the fact that they need rolled the item while everyone else rolled the specified Greed, and I still see the individual running around in game.
So even submitting tickets don't even help. In defense of support though I will give it a few more days, but it is a pain in the HAMSTER to think this person more than likely sold the item anyways, knowing they didn't deserve it.
Cheers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Wait, so because we did Valindra's and I hit NEED on the item, because I in fact need it, then I got "carried through"? How the hell does that logic even process with you? So I didn't participate at all to be able to earn my gear?
You people tend to forget that this game DOES see an influx of people all the time. I'm still reletively new to the game, and don't have a single set of the dungeon armors. Yet thanks to friends, I've been able to get a GS high enough to let me run Valindra's. Just cause I barely have the GS to run it, doesn't mean you carried me through the **** thing. Your GS means absolutely squat if you don't know how to play your class. You people need to get over your damned selves. God, this topic makes me so angry that so many people apparently fail at one of the simplest things in the world. It's not a hard system. You're going to get pissed cause I got something I needed and you didn't get something that you needed or could sell? Know what? Get wrecked, nerd.
Lets put all this into perspective a bit, shall we?
Mob A will randomly drop 1 of 7 items, each usable only by a single class. You farm this dungeon over and over and over again trying to get the item. You run it 300 times before it finally drops. Are you SERIOUSLY going to choose GREED? I don't think so. Why are you going to risk the chance that someone else will get it? You're going to hit NEED on that thing soon as it pops up. Does this make you selfish? Hell no. It makes you the guy lucky enough to get his item to drop after 300 tries.
You people need to start using the damned system the way it was meant to be used.
I mentioned an exception for BoP gear, man. If you are farming your chest peice or offhand for valindra, the go ahead and need on it.
And yes, it's not that the new players don't contribute, sometimes they do, but very often it is an unequal and minor share.
In my opinion the greed mentality is fine. The reason I think so is that there are next to no useful items to need on.
The only items that come to my mind are stuff like "Armor of Insanity", "Braced Troll Warhammer" or "Berserkers Sword Knot". These items however are for fresh 60 chararcters and they are cheaper at the AH than the salvage offers you.
Therefore noone ever needs to farm these specific dungeons in order to get them. Even if a new tank gets his Armor of Insanity in SP, he could salvage it and buy it cheaper from the AH. It's just not a thing.
Valindra and Malabog don't drop anything useful at all. Fragments and offhands are free to Need imo. Every PUG I ran with lately agreed with it.
No new player has a benefit from the drops. It doesn't matter, if an item is useful for you. Somewhen you will receive something you can salvage or sell. If not, Seals of the Drake exist, too.
I wouldn't like to talk about CN. It's the parties choice what they do. We as a guild have a loot system, which decides, who gets the loot and all our members are free to declare "Need" in case they want to. That's us though.
I totally agree with an "all greed" run... The why is simple, everyone has the same chance on everything. personally my guild is an all greed group if its a full guild party. simply because if its a guild run almost all epics go to the guild bank to help players who actually do need the gears.
But really lets think about it logically. If say I'm on my SW in one of these groups where everyone else is needing on class items. So we get to the last boss and poof drops SW armor that sells for 1M AD and im wearing the same armor..... Wouldn't u be a lil peeved that I roll need on that item....
Seriously I look at it this way, if someone says "hey looking for one more to do a T2 greed run" and u don't like greed find another group and stop complaining about it.... simple fix for what is honestly a wasted argument about how others play the game... Find what works for YOU and do it...
Wicked Vendetta, currently accepting new members always willing to help.
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boredinflMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited October 2014
Greed is for people who are geared already and want to make some ad profit.
If you need some gear then get a guild. There are plenty of good guilds with good people willing to help you out.
If a piece of gear drops that you need and it is not bound (and actually worth something), greed it and hope you get it to sell. You will get that same part for free from the chest eventually and will have missed out on that ad profit if you equipped it.
Having good friends and a good guild is worth way more than a whole set of gear. You will be amazed how much faster you progress with a good guild. Also you can make pacts with people to always split the profit on gear worth more than a set amount (about 100k). You get less but you get ad more often, as long as you're not lazy like me.
I mentioned an exception for BoP gear, man. If you are farming your chest peice or offhand for valindra, the go ahead and need on it.
And yes, it's not that the new players don't contribute, sometimes they do, but very often it is an unequal and minor share.
This isn't a game of "Who did the most?". It's a freaking MMO. We contribute together. ****. All you people getting butthurt over the fact that people need gear so you're out some AD. I'm telling you, I've played a dozen MMO's. Most of them with an NBG system. And let me tell you, the community in this game is the ONLY one that gets up in arms about it. At least in this game, you don't have anyone going "Hey, I have another character that can use that, so I'm going to roll NEED, okay?" Every other game allows that. I'm sorry that you people think this game is about who contributes the most. It's not. It's a damned game. Meant to be fun. Getting all butthurt over people using a system for the reason it was put into a game is just silly. That's like getting upset that the cashier has to scan your items before you can pay for it. Just get over it and start using the system properly.
Kicking a player who agreed to only vote greed, but instead voted need, is justifiable.
Kicking a player who voted need, but never agreed to only vote greed is not justifiable.
Kicking players who try to coerce and/or enforce loot rules, AFTER entering a dungeon, is justifiable.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
edited October 2014
I dont even know why there is so many people who care.. .
The ACTUAL amount of useful items that drop is so low, its not even worth debating. Common 10k AD pieces are just greed all, the only thing that actually matters is the smallest amount of drops its not even worth bringing this up every other day like it is.
Sadly, I just dont trust the every day person enough to not believe they will just take whatever they can, even if they have the items.
I dont get into groups and look at peopls items, if they ask to gear up, Im under the impression they need t1/t2 items, I dont mind if they ask to roll on them, but I do mind they press need on enchants, salvage belts and the like without asking.
The best and fastest way to gear up is the chests.
1.You only need each piece of gear one time. ONE time. After you have it, no reason to need it. The majority of players have passes this point long ago.
2.If you do actually "need" the gear for use, you're most likely being carried through the dungeon. Those other four people carrying you have no other incentive than potentially selling that piece of gear.
3.You are much more likely to find that same piece of gear in the chest 5 seconds later, making this entire controversy moot.
4.You still have a 20% chance of getting the gear by rolling greed.
2.If you do actually "need" the gear for use, you're most likely being carried through the dungeon. Those other four people carrying you have no other incentive than potentially selling that piece of gear.
This is the dumbest line I've ever heard. And I've heard/said some doozies. Just cause I need the item doesn't mean in ANY shape or form I got carried. Again, it's not about who did most. The item might be only a marginal upgrade, but it's still an upgrade.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
This isn't a game of "Who did the most?". It's a freaking MMO. We contribute together. ****. All you people getting butthurt over the fact that people need gear so you're out some AD. I'm telling you, I've played a dozen MMO's. Most of them with an NBG system. And let me tell you, the community in this game is the ONLY one that gets up in arms about it. At least in this game, you don't have anyone going "Hey, I have another character that can use that, so I'm going to roll NEED, okay?" Every other game allows that. I'm sorry that you people think this game is about who contributes the most. It's not. It's a damned game. Meant to be fun. Getting all butthurt over people using a system for the reason it was put into a game is just silly. That's like getting upset that the cashier has to scan your items before you can pay for it. Just get over it and start using the system properly.
****, dude. Be cool.
Hey man, i lost some great friends, teammates, and a guild over this very issue. Even if i don't feel that way because i have so much gear it doesn't bother me much, most people when they run a dungeon so that you can take a gear for free that they came to farm so you can gear your alt, feel like they did 80% of the work and got 0% of the reward. It's a normal human mentality.
If we are friends and play together all the time, sure man, I don't care. But most of the people i am friends with would insist on paying me my share of the item anyway, because it's the right thing to do. If I took some BOE item i really wanted, I would gladly pay the team 1/5 the price, each, because they worked hard to get me that item and deserve compensation.
To me, it's almost a moral thing. 5 people do the effort, one person takes the rewards, other people don't have a fair shot at the reward. That's really unfair IMO.
arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
The amount of entitlement in this thread is staggering....that's really all I can call it. I'm sorry, you do not need to be compensated for your time. This is not a job...where you are in fact compensated for your time. This is a video game. If you believe your time is so valuable in game and deserves to be compensated....you may want to log off now and reflect on your particular life path.
If there is a new-player in a group and they genuinely need an item and it drops on a boss, then by all means they should roll for their class-specific item, this will only happen once and then after that they should be pressing greed if it ever drops again.
In time, that new-player may end up over-gearing the dungeon and going back in to look for "high-priced auction house" loot. But if someone in that group he "carries" through it, needs that item, oh well. It was his choice to go into a lower tier dungeon with the expectation that he was "owed" something.
And in the end, RNG is RNG.
Reading previous threads about compensating group members for a item that you need, but has a extremely high value on the auction house is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life.
This system is really simple and has been a standard in MMOs since their inception. There really is nothing new here. Most of the comments are from people who are greedy, selfish, and entitled and that's just sad, you would rather punish a newer-player than see them up to where you are.
I get it, you want AD, but it shouldn't come at the expense of someone that is trying to gear up.
I have played many MMOs and this is up their as the first time I am truly disgusted by some of these comments.
If you people are upset that items are so high on the AH for a certain item, or a class specific item, don't get mad at the player that is just trying to gear up, be mad at the person setting such a high price for the item. My gawd, the auction-house is set by the player, not by Cryptic.
Then to top it off, it sounds like some of you are using the queue system and then imposing your ridiculous player-created rule sets on the group, that is completely uncalled for. If you want to create a group and set the loot rules, then by all means, have at it. But don't use the queue system and don't get mad at someone that needs on an item from the final boss, because heaven forbid they may actually need it.
While their gear may drop from that chest at the end...how do you know they have a key, how do you know if they have enough AD to buy another key...oh what's that? You don't!
What I've been reading so far in post after post is "S*rew you guy, I got mine".
Since this seems to be the great discussion of 2014 and there are so many people who don't seem to understand this very simple and time-honored mechanic, a simple solution is to echo WoW and that is when a boss is downed, loot is automatically given to you at the end, no questions asked, no whining, no ninja-looting. You may get a piece you need, gold, or vendor trash, simple as that.
Is AD a pay-wall? Yes & No. The option is there for you to open your wallet and spend your cash for zen to convert to AD if you so choose and are part of the "Give it to me NAO" crowd. AD is really a time-gate, Cryptic's uninspired way of getting you to continue to play the game. Why do you think the vendor items that cost AD are so high? They expect you to go out and use the methods they have given you to get raw AD and refine it. I can almost guarantee you they do not expect you to farm a dungeon and take loot from someone that needs it just to put it on the AH.
So for the tl;dr crowd:
Need = An upgrade to an item that will be replaced with this loot.
Greed = I just want this for my grubby little hands.
Pass = I don't need your stinkin' items.
The only time that should change is when it has been set and agreed upon by all group members before entering the dungeon.
In the end, to any new person reading this thread, try to find a guild that will help you out and not impose ridiculous rules on you, people that are mature and trusty-worthy and that will help you gear up, without having to "compensate" them for their time.
Shakespeare said it best: All that glitters is not gold.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
This is the dumbest line I've ever heard. And I've heard/said some doozies. Just cause I need the item doesn't mean in ANY shape or form I got carried. Again, it's not about who did most. The item might be only a marginal upgrade, but it's still an upgrade.
Yeah man, let's screw our teammates to get a marginal upgrade! Great Idea! Sing me up for that!
For some reason people expect you to greed on boss loot in dungeons. I find this baffling.
Lets say the boss drops an item for my class, an item which is better than what I have, which I intend to use, which I NEED. Why would someone expect me to "greed" on it?.
Because some people are extremely immature, selfish, childish and Greedy. The very first thing about this game that really put me off some of the other players was seeing things things like:
18k GS GWF PK GREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDD!!!!!!!! RUN!!!
I joined Neverwinter Legit to get away from all that, only to find that they all do the same; although the leader and starter of that channel claims there is no actual channel policy on sharing dungeon loot.
But GRRREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!! is the "fee" they charge you for taking you on an Epic run without insisting on a minimum GS. You get kicked if you don't, but if you already got your Gear drop for your own class - stuff them.
Otherwise, they are just abusing other players and exploiting the NEED or GREED mechanic to their own ends.
NEED or GREED is meant to distribute a class-specific item randomly between the members of that class in the same party. If a DC item drops, only a DC can NEED on it, and NEED is the Rock to the GRRRREEEEEEDDDDD!!!! Scissors.
Why a TR or a GWF would want an Epic DC item can be seen by some AH prices. But, as a DC, I would never deprive a TR or any other class of some Epic boots I cannot use just to make a few thousand AD.
OH! But SOME items go for 800k!!
Oh. I see. That's all right then. Abuse and exploit away. :rolleyes:
Actually, a Spymaster's Ceremonial Shiv for my TR was 800k a few days ago - now there are dozens of them and I got one for 153k. So now both my TRs have that mini-set of Ceremonial Shiv and Elegant Dagger, and I spent no more then 260k AD the pair for both characters. For some reason the daggers were a lot cheaper.
My 15k GS AC Healer got kicked from an Epic dungeon for NEEDING when I did not even know it was a GRRREEEEEEEEEDDDD!!!!! RUNNNNNNNAAAHHHH!!!!!
One of the party PM'd me later to say he voted NO, and they kept dying on the Boss and had to give up.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!
Yeah. 12k Party kicks a 15k Total Heal and Buff AC, and all get NOTHING!
Yeah man, let's screw our teammates to get a marginal upgrade! Great Idea! Sing me up for that!
Another sarcastic comment I presume?
Honestly, it is funny how these proponents of the need system do not see the holes in their logic. They are placing one player above all others in terms of the loot table.
If I look for or build a group, I ask for GREED runs. If someone asks (me) to join, GREED is agreed upon.
I GREED on a 1.000k AD CW item and the others NEED on the 4k AD trash. I dont care about the 4k trash, I care about ppl who are to stupid to read or so selfish, that they exploit other players.
The amount of entitlement in this thread is staggering....that's really all I can call it. I'm sorry, you do not need to be compensated for your time. This is not a job...where you are in fact compensated for your time. This is a video game. If you believe your time is so valuable in game and deserves to be compensated....you may want to log off now and reflect on your particular life path.
If there is a new-player in a group and they genuinely need an item and it drops on a boss, then by all means they should roll for their class-specific item, this will only happen once and then after that they should be pressing greed if it ever drops again.
In time, that new-player may end up over-gearing the dungeon and going back in to look for "high-priced auction house" loot. But if someone in that group he "carries" through it, needs that item, oh well. It was his choice to go into a lower tier dungeon with the expectation that he was "owed" something.
And in the end, RNG is RNG.
Reading previous threads about compensating group members for a item that you need, but has a extremely high value on the auction house is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life.
This system is really simple and has been a standard in MMOs since their inception. There really is nothing new here. Most of the comments are from people who are greedy, selfish, and entitled and that's just sad, you would rather punish a newer-player than see them up to where you are.
I get it, you want AD, but it shouldn't come at the expense of someone that is trying to gear up.
I have played many MMOs and this is up their as the first time I am truly disgusted by some of these comments.
If you people are upset that items are so high on the AH for a certain item, or a class specific item, don't get mad at the player that is just trying to gear up, be mad at the person setting such a high price for the item. My gawd, the auction-house is set by the player, not by Cryptic.
Then to top it off, it sounds like some of you are using the queue system and then imposing your ridiculous player-created rule sets on the group, that is completely uncalled for. If you want to create a group and set the loot rules, then by all means, have at it. But don't use the queue system and don't get mad at someone that needs on an item from the final boss, because heaven forbid they may actually need it.
While their gear may drop from that chest at the end...how do you know they have a key, how do you know if they have enough AD to buy another key...oh what's that? You don't!
What I've been reading so far in post after post is "S*rew you guy, I got mine".
Since this seems to be the great discussion of 2014 and there are so many people who don't seem to understand this very simple and time-honored mechanic, a simple solution is to echo WoW and that is when a boss is downed, loot is automatically given to you at the end, no questions asked, no whining, no ninja-looting. You may get a piece you need, gold, or vendor trash, simple as that.
Is AD a pay-wall? Yes & No. The option is there for you to open your wallet and spend your cash for zen to convert to AD if you so choose and are part of the "Give it to me NAO" crowd. AD is really a time-gate, Cryptic's uninspired way of getting you to continue to play the game. Why do you think the vendor items that cost AD are so high? They expect you to go out and use the methods they have given you to get raw AD and refine it. I can almost guarantee you they do not expect you to farm a dungeon and take loot from someone that needs it just to put it on the AH.
So for the tl;dr crowd:
Need = An upgrade to an item that will be replaced with this loot.
Greed = I just want this for my grubby little hands.
Pass = I don't need your stinkin' items.
The only time that should change is when it has been set and agreed upon by all group members before entering the dungeon.
In the end, to any new person reading this thread, try to find a guild that will help you out and not impose ridiculous rules on you, people that are mature and trusty-worthy and that will help you gear up, without having to "compensate" them for their time.
Shakespeare said it best: All that glitters is not gold.
OMG I want to kiss you for this! I simply don't have the patience to type these things out. And the more I type, the more agitated I get at the issue. And the more agitated I get, the more flustered my thoughts get.
That's like getting upset that the cashier has to scan your items before you can pay for it. Just get over it and start using the system properly.
And if you were able to go back and re-check all those scans how many of those " On Sale " items did you over pay for because you just took that scan for granted..... ?
Just A Thought
Cheers!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
I get it's not a job, i really do.
We put thousands of hours into our characters, worked out our specs, studied the game, worked hard, have tons of skills, know every fight, right?
I put in lots of hours writing guides and studying and helping out people. I answer a ton of questions because I honestly do want people to get better.
Sometimes, when someone is really nice or has really bad luck, I'll run a T2 for them. At this point, I don't care because we are friends. I'm doing it as a personal favor to help them out. If they needed on something they could upgarde, that actually doesn't bother me.
But a PUG man, seriously? 90% of the PUGs i've played with are bad players, don't read chat, can't play their class, don't understand anything, when i try to talk to them they ignore me, they do like 1/3 to 1/4 my DPS, they die all the time, and then after the run i never hear from them again. You honestly expect me to suffer through a run like that so someone can ninja the loot at the end? That's insane, i'll tell you. Insane. That is a waste of time for me.
I think the problem i have is that i have very bad experiences with people who aren't in guild, friends of friends, through a moderated channel, etc. Anytime I venture out of that circle i run into seflish players, acting like demented children with no consideration for me or my time. Why would i ever bother to log in to do that?
If a veteran comes in to help a new player, that player needs to show them the respect and consideration they deserve. After all THEY are helping YOU and paying an opprotunity cost of doing a less productive activity.
If I was a new player and I got carried, i would never ever need on the boss loot because it is rude, selfish and inconsiderate of me.
If the team was relatively balanced, or we set rules on it before, we could do a greed or split.
But if i got carried, because i am new and i had no gear, i would pass on the item i needed, because after all I got carried and i didn't do much of the work anyway. These people are kind enough to help me get my gear from the chest, and I show my appreciation by taking their reward out of their hands? How is this even possibly considered anything but rude?
Honestly, it is funny how these proponents of the need system do not see the holes in their logic. They are placing one player above all others in terms of the loot table.
LOL man, this thread is begging for sarcasm. It's like, "i'm bad, i need gear. I know i could get a BOUND item from the chest, but let me take the unbound item from the rest of the team. Yes, i know they helped me, but I NEED MY GEAR and no one else deserves a reward for helping ME."
LOL man, this thread is begging for sarcasm. It's like, "i'm bad, i need gear. I know i could get a BOUND item from the chest, but let me take the unbound item from the rest of the team. Yes, i know they helped me, but I NEED MY GEAR and no one else deserves a reward for helping ME."
I think the needers are incredibly selfish.
And I think you're incredibly stupid. But I don't get butthurt that you keep spewing vomit on the forums.
Well, I don't do need runs rlly.. but i got a solution We could make the Need option possible on specific items that your character never got before. That would corespond with the Collection thing under Ctrl+J. That would fix most problems with ninjas i suppose. You need it? You got it. You wanna sell it? Sure, sell it - but you can't need that item ever again.
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
We put thousands of hours into our characters, worked out our specs, studied the game, worked hard, have tons of skills, know every fight, right?
I put in lots of hours writing guides and studying and helping out people. I answer a ton of questions because I honestly do want people to get better.
Sometimes, when someone is really nice or has really bad luck, I'll run a T2 for them. At this point, I don't care because we are friends. I'm doing it as a personal favor to help them out. If they needed on something they could upgarde, that actually doesn't bother me.
But a PUG man, seriously? 90% of the PUGs i've played with are bad players, don't read chat, can't play their class, don't understand anything, when i try to talk to them they ignore me, they do like 1/3 to 1/4 my DPS, they die all the time, and then after the run i never hear from them again. You honestly expect me to suffer through a run like that so someone can ninja the loot at the end? That's insane, i'll tell you. Insane. That is a waste of time for me.
I think the problem i have is that i have very bad experiences with people who aren't in guild, friends of friends, through a moderated channel, etc. Anytime I venture out of that circle i run into seflish players, acting like demented children with no consideration for me or my time. Why would i ever bother to log in to do that?
If a veteran comes in to help a new player, that player needs to show them the respect and consideration they deserve. After all THEY are helping YOU and paying an opprotunity cost of doing a less productive activity.
If I was a new player and I got carried, i would never ever need on the boss loot because it is rude, selfish and inconsiderate of me.
If the team was relatively balanced, or we set rules on it before, we could do a greed or split.
But if i got carried, because i am new and i had no gear, i would pass on the item i needed, because after all I got carried and i didn't do much of the work anyway. These people are kind enough to help me get my gear from the chest, and I show my appreciation by taking their reward out of their hands? How is this even possibly considered anything but rude?
I"m sorry to say, that is on you then. If you feel you are being carried, the best thing you can do is actually need on that item that would be an upgrade for you. So the next time you go in there, you can carry your own weight.
I'm sorry that you ran around with demented children, but sadly, that's the population that has slowly taken over every MMO, the best thing you can do is work on your build, get better, ask for help, find like-minded players, etc.
Yes, in a dungeon setting, when you try to offer advice to someone, 9/10 it will be ignored, no one under any circumstances likes to hear "Hey man, you're bad." Though that may not be what you're saying, that is what they hear. The best thing you can do is approach them in an open-ended way. "Hey man, what do you think of your class?" Wait for a response, if they reply, well the door is open for a discussion.
But not needing on something that you actually need, is silly imho. So in effect, you're always going to get carried since you're waiting for that chest to drop something for you.
The chest is a bonus, not the rule.
I'm not a veteran by any means, but anytime I've ran a dungeon, I'm topping the board for damage and kills, the closest person to me in damage is usually 500k - 800k behind me, and in kills 50-100 behind me. After the number 2 spot, everyone else is miles behind us. Should I go around saying, well as a DPS class, I carried y'all, so all this loot belongs to me. I would never do that, but by some of the logic in here, I should be doing that.
Sometimes, when someone is really nice or has really bad luck, I'll run a T2 for them. At this point, I don't care because we are friends. I'm doing it as a personal favor to help them out.
<snippity snip>
Good Grief! I have 12 level 60 characters and I form a party with low GS PUGs just to help complete strangers through dungeons I have already done. Just because it s FUN and it makes me feel good to help out newbies.
All these GRRREEEEEEEEEEDDDD RRRUUUUUNNNNNNAAAAAAHHHHHHHSSSS!!!! probably never played a moment's AD&D in their life. They obviously have no clue what it's about.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
And I think you're incredibly stupid. But I don't get butthurt that you keep spewing vomit on the forums.
I think you are arrogant, selfish, and inconsiderate of other people's efforts.
Really it's people like this why I don't waste my time pugging. Don't care about your teammates, just want your **** item and don't care about anyone else.
Who cares about being fair? showing respect and appreciation? Saying thank you? Obviously not.
Just need on your loot and go on your way. Your attitude is like telling your teammates to go **** themselves.
I think you are arrogant, selfish, and inconsiderate of other people's efforts.
Really it's people like this why I don't waste my time pugging. Don't care about your teammates, just want your **** item and don't care about anyone else.
Who cares about being fair? showing respect and appreciation? Saying thank you? Obviously not.
Just need on your loot and go on your way. Your attitude is like telling your teammates to go **** themselves.
You're assumption that I'm a bad teammate is wrong. If I get an item I need, I thank my group immediately. And I'm always one of the first to tell my group "Good job, thanks for the group/items." And if it's a REALLY good group of people, I tend to add them to my friends list for future groups. I'm not a total HAMSTER when it comes to this. But yes, if I need an item, I will roll NEED.
You could easily argue that by choosing "need" for your own class, you're being greedy by taking away something of higher AD value.
Only if you were completely HAMSTER.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2014
Normally I don't care whether or not someone rolls, need, I do runs for fun and to challenge myself, however, something that happened recently comes to mind where I was REALLY irked. I got into a premade group for CN whereby the purpose was for me to solo the dungeon. I got in, everyone else switched to their alts and all was well. Come the 3rd boss one of the players wanted their alt for something so switched and left the dungeon. I thought, "sure, not a problem, with myself being the only person in group, everyone who queues into the group will leave anyhow." So I continue with the dungeon, get to draco and solo kill him. As I pick up the boss drop, some random GF queues into the group and rolls need on the epic for the dungeon, which just happens to be for his class....I am sorry, I have just done the entire dungeon, at that stage, I don't CARE if you actually need the item, you have done NOTHING to deserve it!
Needers are selfish, yes. that's true.
But kicking needers, who never agreed to only vote greed, is even more selfish.
If you don't want to do any more dungeon runs with a needer, add him/her to your ignore list, but please don't kick him/her from the dungeon simply because he/she votes need in a loot system which has been approved by cryptic.
Comments
Agree with this comment, I will take it one step further, the intent should be in the LFG not brought up after the fact ( Entry ).
Why? for the simple fact that if I, you, or others spend their time in group and waiting for another to fill the Que that's time wasted you could find another group, then when you get into the dungeon all of a sudden someone gives the loot scheme, which wasn't in the LFG. I can't count the times I joined PUG groups that I only learned the loot scheme after I got in and by then it was too late to try and find another group run, fine for that group they are already in so if I leave makes not problems for them heck they may even be able to 4 man the run who knows.
And then what if you do Greed roll on a purple boss item and someone rolls need then what They get the item anyways even if you do kick them, you think they are going to hand it over after they get it for fear of getting kicked????
And you can suggest to opening a ticket to get it sorted out but TBO that hardly works if at all, and I know this from experience, sure you get the e-mail saying it is being looked into, and because of privacy issues ....Blah...Blah...Blah....
I have been in, and I am in this situation at this very moment, got the e-mail, it been a few days now, haven't got any other replies back saying anything, other then the suggestion to ignore the player ( Oo ) I have seen no recompense for the item that was stolen from me, due to the fact that they need rolled the item while everyone else rolled the specified Greed, and I still see the individual running around in game.
So even submitting tickets don't even help. In defense of support though I will give it a few more days, but it is a pain in the HAMSTER to think this person more than likely sold the item anyways, knowing they didn't deserve it.
Cheers!
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
I mentioned an exception for BoP gear, man. If you are farming your chest peice or offhand for valindra, the go ahead and need on it.
And yes, it's not that the new players don't contribute, sometimes they do, but very often it is an unequal and minor share.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The only items that come to my mind are stuff like "Armor of Insanity", "Braced Troll Warhammer" or "Berserkers Sword Knot". These items however are for fresh 60 chararcters and they are cheaper at the AH than the salvage offers you.
Therefore noone ever needs to farm these specific dungeons in order to get them. Even if a new tank gets his Armor of Insanity in SP, he could salvage it and buy it cheaper from the AH. It's just not a thing.
Valindra and Malabog don't drop anything useful at all. Fragments and offhands are free to Need imo. Every PUG I ran with lately agreed with it.
No new player has a benefit from the drops. It doesn't matter, if an item is useful for you. Somewhen you will receive something you can salvage or sell. If not, Seals of the Drake exist, too.
I wouldn't like to talk about CN. It's the parties choice what they do. We as a guild have a loot system, which decides, who gets the loot and all our members are free to declare "Need" in case they want to. That's us though.
But really lets think about it logically. If say I'm on my SW in one of these groups where everyone else is needing on class items. So we get to the last boss and poof drops SW armor that sells for 1M AD and im wearing the same armor..... Wouldn't u be a lil peeved that I roll need on that item....
Seriously I look at it this way, if someone says "hey looking for one more to do a T2 greed run" and u don't like greed find another group and stop complaining about it.... simple fix for what is honestly a wasted argument about how others play the game... Find what works for YOU and do it...
Wicked Vendetta, currently accepting new members
If you need some gear then get a guild. There are plenty of good guilds with good people willing to help you out.
If a piece of gear drops that you need and it is not bound (and actually worth something), greed it and hope you get it to sell. You will get that same part for free from the chest eventually and will have missed out on that ad profit if you equipped it.
Having good friends and a good guild is worth way more than a whole set of gear. You will be amazed how much faster you progress with a good guild. Also you can make pacts with people to always split the profit on gear worth more than a set amount (about 100k). You get less but you get ad more often, as long as you're not lazy like me.
This isn't a game of "Who did the most?". It's a freaking MMO. We contribute together. ****. All you people getting butthurt over the fact that people need gear so you're out some AD. I'm telling you, I've played a dozen MMO's. Most of them with an NBG system. And let me tell you, the community in this game is the ONLY one that gets up in arms about it. At least in this game, you don't have anyone going "Hey, I have another character that can use that, so I'm going to roll NEED, okay?" Every other game allows that. I'm sorry that you people think this game is about who contributes the most. It's not. It's a damned game. Meant to be fun. Getting all butthurt over people using a system for the reason it was put into a game is just silly. That's like getting upset that the cashier has to scan your items before you can pay for it. Just get over it and start using the system properly.
****, dude. Be cool.
Kicking a player who voted need, but never agreed to only vote greed is not justifiable.
Kicking players who try to coerce and/or enforce loot rules, AFTER entering a dungeon, is justifiable.
The ACTUAL amount of useful items that drop is so low, its not even worth debating. Common 10k AD pieces are just greed all, the only thing that actually matters is the smallest amount of drops its not even worth bringing this up every other day like it is.
Sadly, I just dont trust the every day person enough to not believe they will just take whatever they can, even if they have the items.
I dont get into groups and look at peopls items, if they ask to gear up, Im under the impression they need t1/t2 items, I dont mind if they ask to roll on them, but I do mind they press need on enchants, salvage belts and the like without asking.
The best and fastest way to gear up is the chests.
2.If you do actually "need" the gear for use, you're most likely being carried through the dungeon. Those other four people carrying you have no other incentive than potentially selling that piece of gear.
3.You are much more likely to find that same piece of gear in the chest 5 seconds later, making this entire controversy moot.
4.You still have a 20% chance of getting the gear by rolling greed.
This is the dumbest line I've ever heard. And I've heard/said some doozies. Just cause I need the item doesn't mean in ANY shape or form I got carried. Again, it's not about who did most. The item might be only a marginal upgrade, but it's still an upgrade.
Hey man, i lost some great friends, teammates, and a guild over this very issue. Even if i don't feel that way because i have so much gear it doesn't bother me much, most people when they run a dungeon so that you can take a gear for free that they came to farm so you can gear your alt, feel like they did 80% of the work and got 0% of the reward. It's a normal human mentality.
If we are friends and play together all the time, sure man, I don't care. But most of the people i am friends with would insist on paying me my share of the item anyway, because it's the right thing to do. If I took some BOE item i really wanted, I would gladly pay the team 1/5 the price, each, because they worked hard to get me that item and deserve compensation.
To me, it's almost a moral thing. 5 people do the effort, one person takes the rewards, other people don't have a fair shot at the reward. That's really unfair IMO.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
If there is a new-player in a group and they genuinely need an item and it drops on a boss, then by all means they should roll for their class-specific item, this will only happen once and then after that they should be pressing greed if it ever drops again.
In time, that new-player may end up over-gearing the dungeon and going back in to look for "high-priced auction house" loot. But if someone in that group he "carries" through it, needs that item, oh well. It was his choice to go into a lower tier dungeon with the expectation that he was "owed" something.
And in the end, RNG is RNG.
Reading previous threads about compensating group members for a item that you need, but has a extremely high value on the auction house is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life.
This system is really simple and has been a standard in MMOs since their inception. There really is nothing new here. Most of the comments are from people who are greedy, selfish, and entitled and that's just sad, you would rather punish a newer-player than see them up to where you are.
I get it, you want AD, but it shouldn't come at the expense of someone that is trying to gear up.
I have played many MMOs and this is up their as the first time I am truly disgusted by some of these comments.
If you people are upset that items are so high on the AH for a certain item, or a class specific item, don't get mad at the player that is just trying to gear up, be mad at the person setting such a high price for the item. My gawd, the auction-house is set by the player, not by Cryptic.
Then to top it off, it sounds like some of you are using the queue system and then imposing your ridiculous player-created rule sets on the group, that is completely uncalled for. If you want to create a group and set the loot rules, then by all means, have at it. But don't use the queue system and don't get mad at someone that needs on an item from the final boss, because heaven forbid they may actually need it.
While their gear may drop from that chest at the end...how do you know they have a key, how do you know if they have enough AD to buy another key...oh what's that? You don't!
What I've been reading so far in post after post is "S*rew you guy, I got mine".
Since this seems to be the great discussion of 2014 and there are so many people who don't seem to understand this very simple and time-honored mechanic, a simple solution is to echo WoW and that is when a boss is downed, loot is automatically given to you at the end, no questions asked, no whining, no ninja-looting. You may get a piece you need, gold, or vendor trash, simple as that.
Is AD a pay-wall? Yes & No. The option is there for you to open your wallet and spend your cash for zen to convert to AD if you so choose and are part of the "Give it to me NAO" crowd. AD is really a time-gate, Cryptic's uninspired way of getting you to continue to play the game. Why do you think the vendor items that cost AD are so high? They expect you to go out and use the methods they have given you to get raw AD and refine it. I can almost guarantee you they do not expect you to farm a dungeon and take loot from someone that needs it just to put it on the AH.
So for the tl;dr crowd:
Need = An upgrade to an item that will be replaced with this loot.
Greed = I just want this for my grubby little hands.
Pass = I don't need your stinkin' items.
The only time that should change is when it has been set and agreed upon by all group members before entering the dungeon.
In the end, to any new person reading this thread, try to find a guild that will help you out and not impose ridiculous rules on you, people that are mature and trusty-worthy and that will help you gear up, without having to "compensate" them for their time.
Shakespeare said it best: All that glitters is not gold.
Yeah man, let's screw our teammates to get a marginal upgrade! Great Idea! Sing me up for that!
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Because some people are extremely immature, selfish, childish and Greedy. The very first thing about this game that really put me off some of the other players was seeing things things like:
18k GS GWF PK GREEEEEEEEEEDDDDDD!!!!!!!! RUN!!!
I joined Neverwinter Legit to get away from all that, only to find that they all do the same; although the leader and starter of that channel claims there is no actual channel policy on sharing dungeon loot.
But GRRREEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!! is the "fee" they charge you for taking you on an Epic run without insisting on a minimum GS. You get kicked if you don't, but if you already got your Gear drop for your own class - stuff them.
Otherwise, they are just abusing other players and exploiting the NEED or GREED mechanic to their own ends.
NEED or GREED is meant to distribute a class-specific item randomly between the members of that class in the same party. If a DC item drops, only a DC can NEED on it, and NEED is the Rock to the GRRRREEEEEEDDDDD!!!! Scissors.
Why a TR or a GWF would want an Epic DC item can be seen by some AH prices. But, as a DC, I would never deprive a TR or any other class of some Epic boots I cannot use just to make a few thousand AD.
OH! But SOME items go for 800k!!
Oh. I see. That's all right then. Abuse and exploit away. :rolleyes:
Actually, a Spymaster's Ceremonial Shiv for my TR was 800k a few days ago - now there are dozens of them and I got one for 153k. So now both my TRs have that mini-set of Ceremonial Shiv and Elegant Dagger, and I spent no more then 260k AD the pair for both characters. For some reason the daggers were a lot cheaper.
My 15k GS AC Healer got kicked from an Epic dungeon for NEEDING when I did not even know it was a GRRREEEEEEEEEDDDD!!!!! RUNNNNNNNAAAHHHH!!!!!
One of the party PM'd me later to say he voted NO, and they kept dying on the Boss and had to give up.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!
Yeah. 12k Party kicks a 15k Total Heal and Buff AC, and all get NOTHING!
Another sarcastic comment I presume?
Honestly, it is funny how these proponents of the need system do not see the holes in their logic. They are placing one player above all others in terms of the loot table.
I GREED on a 1.000k AD CW item and the others NEED on the 4k AD trash. I dont care about the 4k trash, I care about ppl who are to stupid to read or so selfish, that they exploit other players.
OMG I want to kiss you for this! I simply don't have the patience to type these things out. And the more I type, the more agitated I get at the issue. And the more agitated I get, the more flustered my thoughts get.
And if you were able to go back and re-check all those scans how many of those " On Sale " items did you over pay for because you just took that scan for granted..... ?
Just A Thought
Cheers!
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
We put thousands of hours into our characters, worked out our specs, studied the game, worked hard, have tons of skills, know every fight, right?
I put in lots of hours writing guides and studying and helping out people. I answer a ton of questions because I honestly do want people to get better.
Sometimes, when someone is really nice or has really bad luck, I'll run a T2 for them. At this point, I don't care because we are friends. I'm doing it as a personal favor to help them out. If they needed on something they could upgarde, that actually doesn't bother me.
But a PUG man, seriously? 90% of the PUGs i've played with are bad players, don't read chat, can't play their class, don't understand anything, when i try to talk to them they ignore me, they do like 1/3 to 1/4 my DPS, they die all the time, and then after the run i never hear from them again. You honestly expect me to suffer through a run like that so someone can ninja the loot at the end? That's insane, i'll tell you. Insane. That is a waste of time for me.
I think the problem i have is that i have very bad experiences with people who aren't in guild, friends of friends, through a moderated channel, etc. Anytime I venture out of that circle i run into seflish players, acting like demented children with no consideration for me or my time. Why would i ever bother to log in to do that?
If a veteran comes in to help a new player, that player needs to show them the respect and consideration they deserve. After all THEY are helping YOU and paying an opprotunity cost of doing a less productive activity.
If I was a new player and I got carried, i would never ever need on the boss loot because it is rude, selfish and inconsiderate of me.
If the team was relatively balanced, or we set rules on it before, we could do a greed or split.
But if i got carried, because i am new and i had no gear, i would pass on the item i needed, because after all I got carried and i didn't do much of the work anyway. These people are kind enough to help me get my gear from the chest, and I show my appreciation by taking their reward out of their hands? How is this even possibly considered anything but rude?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
LOL man, this thread is begging for sarcasm. It's like, "i'm bad, i need gear. I know i could get a BOUND item from the chest, but let me take the unbound item from the rest of the team. Yes, i know they helped me, but I NEED MY GEAR and no one else deserves a reward for helping ME."
I think the needers are incredibly selfish.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
And I think you're incredibly stupid. But I don't get butthurt that you keep spewing vomit on the forums.
I"m sorry to say, that is on you then. If you feel you are being carried, the best thing you can do is actually need on that item that would be an upgrade for you. So the next time you go in there, you can carry your own weight.
I'm sorry that you ran around with demented children, but sadly, that's the population that has slowly taken over every MMO, the best thing you can do is work on your build, get better, ask for help, find like-minded players, etc.
Yes, in a dungeon setting, when you try to offer advice to someone, 9/10 it will be ignored, no one under any circumstances likes to hear "Hey man, you're bad." Though that may not be what you're saying, that is what they hear. The best thing you can do is approach them in an open-ended way. "Hey man, what do you think of your class?" Wait for a response, if they reply, well the door is open for a discussion.
But not needing on something that you actually need, is silly imho. So in effect, you're always going to get carried since you're waiting for that chest to drop something for you.
The chest is a bonus, not the rule.
I'm not a veteran by any means, but anytime I've ran a dungeon, I'm topping the board for damage and kills, the closest person to me in damage is usually 500k - 800k behind me, and in kills 50-100 behind me. After the number 2 spot, everyone else is miles behind us. Should I go around saying, well as a DPS class, I carried y'all, so all this loot belongs to me. I would never do that, but by some of the logic in here, I should be doing that.
Good Grief! I have 12 level 60 characters and I form a party with low GS PUGs just to help complete strangers through dungeons I have already done. Just because it s FUN and it makes me feel good to help out newbies.
All these GRRREEEEEEEEEEDDDD RRRUUUUUNNNNNNAAAAAAHHHHHHHSSSS!!!! probably never played a moment's AD&D in their life. They obviously have no clue what it's about.
I think you are arrogant, selfish, and inconsiderate of other people's efforts.
Really it's people like this why I don't waste my time pugging. Don't care about your teammates, just want your **** item and don't care about anyone else.
Who cares about being fair? showing respect and appreciation? Saying thank you? Obviously not.
Just need on your loot and go on your way. Your attitude is like telling your teammates to go **** themselves.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You're assumption that I'm a bad teammate is wrong. If I get an item I need, I thank my group immediately. And I'm always one of the first to tell my group "Good job, thanks for the group/items." And if it's a REALLY good group of people, I tend to add them to my friends list for future groups. I'm not a total HAMSTER when it comes to this. But yes, if I need an item, I will roll NEED.
Only if you were completely HAMSTER.
Needers are selfish, yes. that's true.
But kicking needers, who never agreed to only vote greed, is even more selfish.
If you don't want to do any more dungeon runs with a needer, add him/her to your ignore list, but please don't kick him/her from the dungeon simply because he/she votes need in a loot system which has been approved by cryptic.
Surprised the mods are letting this thread carry on, it's just devolved into personal attacks for the last few pages.