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It's time to do away with "the Undodgeable"s.
kweassa
Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
At the heart of the "great Piercing Blade debate" and the "HR damage mechanism debate", is fundamentally the "undodgeables". Certain methods of dealing damage which it is impossible to avoid once activated.
I think by now, it is pretty clear that nobody really wants these any more -- particularly when it comes to PvP. Frankly, the AI NPC/mobs don't ever complain how bullchi* the mechanic is, hence whatever outbursts and resistance to a system/mechanic that feels unjust, unfair and bullshi*, is destined to come from the PvP crowd.
Why just Piercing Blades? Why not every sort of bullshi* which brings nothing but problems to the gameplay? Why do the developers tolerate mechanics which simply ignore the all-important dodge/teleport/shift?
I want every type of attack to be dodgeable, so long as the timing is right. The fact that I'm a class without any CC-breaks just makes it that much worse to be able to perfectly time my dodge, and yet still be either CCd or be damaged because the attack simply ignores defensive action.
For starters, I want:
The feat shouldn't proc when the source power hit a total-immunity status like stealthed ITC. The feat shouldn't proc when the source power was dodged.... it especailly should not deal damage based on default value.
The 40% should be based on actual damage that made past the mitigation. If that damage is 0, then PB should be 0. If a 10k power was caught by 80% DR and dealt only 2k damage, then PB should be doing 800 extra damage, not 4k.
...Crescendo, Flourish, many more... these "undodgeable's" don't belong here anymore. Every ability, every attack, CC, debuff, etc etc.. all of these should be a result of successful timing. If you use it at a bad timing, or if your opponent has anticipated your move, then the only fitting result is it misses. Every move you fire off must come with the consequence that is to be paid, if you had bad timing, or if your opponent was superior in avoiding it.
No more freebies. No more undeserving hits or CCs. If you miss, you miss. If you land, you land.
No more "Ooh, he dodged it, but who cares, my attack lands anyway" bullshi* ever again.
I think by now, it is pretty clear that nobody really wants these any more -- particularly when it comes to PvP. Frankly, the AI NPC/mobs don't ever complain how bullchi* the mechanic is, hence whatever outbursts and resistance to a system/mechanic that feels unjust, unfair and bullshi*, is destined to come from the PvP crowd.
Why just Piercing Blades? Why not every sort of bullshi* which brings nothing but problems to the gameplay? Why do the developers tolerate mechanics which simply ignore the all-important dodge/teleport/shift?
I want every type of attack to be dodgeable, so long as the timing is right. The fact that I'm a class without any CC-breaks just makes it that much worse to be able to perfectly time my dodge, and yet still be either CCd or be damaged because the attack simply ignores defensive action.
For starters, I want:
-
Icy Rays to respect dodge mechanics: some people testify that Icy Rays is dodgeable, while others do not - which means only one thing. It means even if Icy Rays is dodgeable, there is something about it (most probably the activation conditions or speed) that makes it practically impossible despite theoretically possible, that most people perceive it as 'undodgeable'. I don't want anymore of the bullshi* where I've perfectly timed my dodge and evade Entangling Force, and yet simply be snagged by Icy Rays next. I want this power to respect dodge, as with any other.
-
Shocking Execution to respect dodge mechanics: I don't care if the power's been nerfed and weak. If it needs to be buffed back in damage, so be it. It's got nothing to do with what is under discussio -- which is about principle. Powers that shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on the player's defensive action, and thus no matter how perfectly timed, it becomes futile. I want Shocking Execution to respect dodge mechanics
-
Piercing Blades to respect dodge mechanics: What the HRs should know, is that the complaints against this feat would have been a lot fewer, and not as much people would have perceived it as a problem, if only the feat didn't do the bullshi*
The feat shouldn't proc when the source power hit a total-immunity status like stealthed ITC. The feat shouldn't proc when the source power was dodged.... it especailly should not deal damage based on default value.
The 40% should be based on actual damage that made past the mitigation. If that damage is 0, then PB should be 0. If a 10k power was caught by 80% DR and dealt only 2k damage, then PB should be doing 800 extra damage, not 4k.
...Crescendo, Flourish, many more... these "undodgeable's" don't belong here anymore. Every ability, every attack, CC, debuff, etc etc.. all of these should be a result of successful timing. If you use it at a bad timing, or if your opponent has anticipated your move, then the only fitting result is it misses. Every move you fire off must come with the consequence that is to be paid, if you had bad timing, or if your opponent was superior in avoiding it.
No more freebies. No more undeserving hits or CCs. If you miss, you miss. If you land, you land.
No more "Ooh, he dodged it, but who cares, my attack lands anyway" bullshi* ever again.
Stop making excuses. Be a man.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Post edited by kweassa on
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No exceptions.
Dunno if WoB is one of those, but if it disregards dodge and mitigation, then yes, should be fixed to respect both.
I don't care if its a power my own class uses against others, or something other classes inflict on me. What I activate and miss should be a miss, if it hits square then it should hit.
I don't want to be able to hit someone when I cleared fired it off at a stupid timing, but an "auto-hit" mechanic takes care of it for me --- and as much, I expect the same with powers aimed at me. I dodge it then I dodge it. If not, then I'm hit.
This is most fair and sane, is it not?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You cant just do it like that. There are so many abilities that cant be dodged in this game, they cant just fix 5 of them. Either they have to fix all or none.
And i want to finally fix icy rays, many of CWs wrote about this bug since very very long time (maby even more than half a year). Classes like GF, TR, HR, GWF can ignore cc from Icy rays and jump to us for example :Threateing rush, bull charge etc. CC from icy rays is joke, it works only when enemy is far far away and almost every class can ignore it, so you to stop bullshi*.
Like said, again, no exceptions.
Those five are just from the top of my head, since I can't remember every single one of the bullshi* instances that exists in the game. I certainly did not mean only "those five" should be fixed. Every power which is either inherently impossible to dodge should be fixed.
There simply should not be a "ooh, this is undodgeable" in the first place.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Instead of function X() deal damage to function Y() the absolute immunity barrier, where all other function A,B,C() converges... asks function Y "Are you in immunity mode?" It doesn't work that way. Said function A,B,C,X() forks in a whole assortment of damage types. Hence immunity is applied to the damage type A,B,C,X(). Whenever you add a new kind of attack, you will have to patch every damage type functions to respect your new attack.
It should become obvious that this exponentially hardens the coding process, making it more tedious.
To make it so that your suggestions will become reality, the entire game has to be rebuilt from scratch. Means months and hundreds of thousands of dollars on the payroll.
TL;DR
No, not gonna happen.
the problem I have with undodgable attacks. Are most of them also do HIGH damage as well as being undodgable.
Icy Rays and Shocking Execution being the ones.
but Flourish and Cresendo is completely dodgable. I've successfully dodge them both and I dodge Flourish on a regular basis.
Does this look like a "fix the icy ray bug" thread to you?
Does anyone in this thread not acknowledge there is a bug, or the bug should not be fixed?
Stop trying to shroud the picture with irrelevant shi*.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There's nothing inherently complex about it. <CoH> is a game from almost 10 years ago and they handled a range of different damage types -- around 4 or 5, iirc -- complete with individual, seperate resistances, seperate evasion chance, and an extra "aim" factor hit/miss calculation on top of it without any sort of wierd or strange or frustrating happenings
...and on top of it, <CoH> also revolved around heavy PBAoE buff influences to those stats and often there would be more than 5~6 buffs that changed dynamically according to how people move around -- and always, the calculation and results were perfect to the decimal.
...all of that, and the game was still even more faster-paced than NW (like, "firing off 2~3 attacks and then toggling stuff on/off while running down the avenue and turning street corners at 90mph and jumping 50' into the air with 5 direction changes" level of "fast")... all perfectly accomplished with PCs from 8~10 years ago.
Compared to it, NW is really, really simple all around. IMO it doesn't use even half of the factors involved with internal calculation CoH used to deal with.
I'm not sure which line of coding method they use, but willing to bet it doesn't require a "build from scratch".
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
They use the lazy "its designed as a free to play from the start so we dont care" line of coding. This game can never even dream of getting close to having what CoH had going on. The only thing that qualifies as better/more advanced here in the actual action style combat i.e here we can actually make someone miss while in CoH the 'miss' was not tied to a timed dodge
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Well i dont agree with that. There are some skills that should be undogable. Like Shocking Execution, since its an execution. I can think of more, but you get the picture.
To ask if piercing resistances and immunites is fair should also lead to the question, why is immunity fair? You cant deny that immunites tend far more to be annoying and lead to the development of so called (or so percieved) "troll builds" as HRs in mod3, perma TRs, and perma blocking and immune GFs.
Its kinda funny to see the forum warriors rage about some little peircing dmg, while the true problem are the glyphs, leading to HRs and CWs able to shred people in seconds, and GFs are able to tank whole Gauntlygrym, beeing immortal and making their teammates with KV nearly immortal also.
Fact is, unresistable dmg is part of the game as immunites are. Its the amount of dmg that needs to be changed or the duration of immunities.
PS: you have a cc break with your class, the TR. If ur WK tr, its ur fault going into pvp with a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> build ^^
- Crescendo is nigh impossible to dodge. It is one of those powers you gave to guesstimate when it will show and start chain dodges, such as with an HR. Might still hit you though.
ICY RAYS
This ability, is the one responsible for the (limited) CW success in PvP now. It's extremely easy to prove why with a single example.
CW vs GF
This used to be a fight that was always quite balanced (for this game's standards). In Mod 3, a CW would need exceptional skill/gear to beat a great GF, but it was (almost) possible. It was (almost) in a good place.
Mod 4 gave big increase in DPS to the CW, but also buffed GF some. Even with Assailant in its initial cheesy condition, a great GF could still kill a great CW, but it was at some disadvantage. After the Assailant nerf, the fight was almost PERFECTLY BALANCED - which is a rare thing in Neverwinter.
Come Shield buffs... against Chill and Icy Rays... and CW vs GF is no longer possible, at all, for the CW. Kiting is dead and you have to be suicidal to come close to the GF and try to outmaneuver it with your slow CW.
And all it took was Icy Rays being made obsolete.
CWs in PvP depend with their lives on CC, and Icy rays is the main one we have. We cannot usually land direct Chill Strikes or Entangles - they are too slow, and CC too short-lasting. Once you take the CC out and put the CW against an "Immune" target all the time, CW are nothing but trash to be disposed of.
TL\DR: CW is fully dead in PvP without Icy Rays and cannot fill the Controller role at all.
PS: Icy Rays is the opener for the Shard on Tab rotation. If this is to return, hopefully, we need IR to work.
Agreed.
CWs lack an "Unstoppable" or stealth or block or dozens of dodges or ITC that other classes have
2) Icy Ray is fine, without it CWs would struggle. Give us DCs CC immunity and I won't complain.
3) +1 buff SE but make it dogdeable.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
Shush. You are missed.
Signed,
Your Soul Fuffet
Piercing blades needs to be changed. Make everything dodgeable and what will that do? Nothing smart. It will just change the time during a fight at which the target player uses a dodge it does nothing to correct the problem of having a damage ability that is not mitigated by deflection or defense. There are classes in this game that are entirely themed around these two statistics like the GF.
I understand where you are coming from. You play HR and you have seen some nerfs lately that you may think were unfair. I play TR I know the feeling but balance cannot be achieved by the method you are requesting. I would say that there are some classes that currently can dodge more than others or have larger frame scaling with their dodge abilty so adding an extra dodge to some classes would be a fair thing to do. The DC class could use it since their mobility is the worst of all classes.
No this thread looks like crying baby who has no skil in pvp becouse we all good know that the control in pvp is working against another CW and dc, but rest of classes are immunte almost 100% of time now, like GF or GWF, try to cc them, especialy GF good luck. TR have Perma stealth, any single target CW stuns like icy rays, chill strike or entanlging can't even catch them becouse casting time is very long, then cc with single targert skills is almost impossible. HRs? teoreticly he should be susceptible on all of stuns but we all know he break every cc like matches in 0,5 sec. and kill everyone in next 2 sec. so stop babbling about that all. Even if you are catched by Icy rays you can still shot from your bow, use it and learn to play pvp, or use bug and jump to me during cc is on you.
No comment about SW, this is new class, they will showu what they can do in the coming months, but already now i can be dead by 2 shoots from SW, their dmg is sometimes crazy.
As one of many HRs, piercing blade, if removed, also removes melee HR as a viable pvp build. You remember our pvp set bonus was nerfed into uselessness this mod, in it's place we have wilds medicine, which tbh, is not very good. Too little healing, over too greater time. So, the HR heal meta has switched to lifesteal. This presents the problem of doing enough damage over time to produce a reasonable degree of healing while being constantly damaged ourselves during melee with tougher, better armored opponents.
The ticks of CA, and piercing, proccing with the plague/flaming dot enchants we are forced by the current meta to go with, provide this. Without it, quite simply, there would be no melee build HRs in pvp.
Glass cannon archery builds maximizing crits and aimed shot from stealth would be the next fotm build. Extended range class feature, and pillar sitting pew pew. Boring for us, boring and sometimes lethal for you. Atm. HRs counter GFs, GWFs and PSTRs, without them, well, prepare to be trolled.
Then of course, the nerf train would pull in at aimed shot central...
First, I did some digging and it is currently *incorrectly* looking at damage before resistance, which is why it is going through immunity and dealing such a large amount of damage. Secondly, as to abilities piercing resistance. Most of these cases are either not intentional (WoB is a good example of this, and that is getting fixed with the rogue changes), or are designed for a pretty specific reason (like Piercing Blade intentionally being Piercing so that it doesn't get resistance applied twice).
These changes should be hitting Preview soonish, but I don't have an actual timeline yet. These changes cannot be rushed out because they do pretty drastically affect the performance of the classes in question, but we are making adjustments.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
EDIT: Regarding Icy Rays, I haven't had a chance to dig into it yet. It isn't marked as undodgable and my best guess (without a deep amount of digging) is that this is tied to how fast the actual bolts activate when fired (.4 seconds). I will have to investigate further.
Yeah, if you make icy rays undodgable, CWs are back to punching bags. Thanks a lot for listening to morons
I really do appreciate you looking at these but it has to be said. You could have saved alot of time/heartache/complaining if you would have taken a look at these when they were reported on preview (many many many times) over 3 months ago. The thing that is upsetting everyone is that these things are making it to live after being reported and then many months down the road are being changed. This causing grief on two levels.
1. Everyone pissed it made it live and now you gotta deal with OP powers.
2. People having to re-train their toon once you finally fix them months (years) later.
Just something to keep in mind for the future. A simple response to the people who are actually testing this for you saying "hey this isn't what we intended and may change" would go a long way. It would also encourage more testing on preview.
God I'm dumb.
Then it's time to make it officially undodgeable. A dodgeable Icy Rays… not sure what percentage of the player base plays CW, but that would be the exact percentage cut of your income from Neverwinter ZEN purchases.
So it's basically just intended to be +40% damage to melee?
Are there any particular intricacies to making it two separate attacks? It's always exactly 40% extra damage so Crits carry over, and soon mitigation carries over as well. It doesn't proc anything else after it like Careful or Hurricane, it's just a final damage tag on.
There are some aesthetics to having more floaty numbers but otherwise it's just vague/confusing and instigates unnecessary arguments over "fixes" and "nerfs".
nah, you can still hold down left mouse button and kill everyone.