Make Entangle, Repel, Chill Strike activation times as low as Disruptive Shot.
Make Icy Rays pierce CC immune if on Tab.
And then make Icy Rays really dodgeable.
Otherwise, leave it alone as it is. The Root from it already got nerfed in Preview.
For clarity, this is the upcoming change to IR on Preview right now...
Control Wizard: Icy Rays: Control Strength and Resistance will now properly affect the duration of the immobilize from Icy Rays. To compensate for this, the base root duration has been reduced to 1 second when hitting two targets, and 1.25 seconds when hitting a single target (down from 1.5 and 2 respectively).
So base root duration nearly HALVED for single target. Although it's not clear how much of a boost Control Strength will give it after that.
Please find here below 3 reasons why PIERCING BLADE must not be changed at all.
1) Icy Rays, Assailant and all these abilities are RANGED, while Piercing Blade is MELEE...have you never fought in melee?!?! you get into HELL, you expose yourself to mages/warlocks hits from side, you have to get totally uncovered to benefit from Piercing Blades. Mages instead, stay behind the combat line disintegrating people. CW and HR cannot be put at the same level on this point.
2) Hunter ranger does not have any damage reduction, any decent healing, nor armor. With these background conditions, bringing an hunter in melee is a TOTAL SUICIDE. The only thing that gives you a chance is lifesteal, and it's easy to understand that it CANNOT DEPEND ON WHICH CLASS YOU ARE HITTING.
The amount of damage you take from players is studied to be balanced among classes, so try to say now that Piercing Blade is affected by armor, reduction, etc. If you go against against high armored players you wont do sufficient damage to keep you alive at all. While against soft armored, you would stay alive much longer. THIS RESULTS in a COMPLETE IMPOSSIBILITY TO BALANCE HR at a general level.
HR need something hitting the same amount whichever armor/reduction it meets.
3) Too many nerfs were done to this class in the last mod. HR lost Damage Reduction of Lone Wolf, lost PVP bonus set, lost ROOTS, Fox shift was nerfed two times. Just reduce the damage now by changing piercing blade, and you will eliminate the last chance for HR to be viable in PVP.
Yeh. Please buff Wild Medicine. And I kinda want 60% Deflect to go with it as well. Also put Tenacity on the Royal Guard set, and I will be happy
I find Wilds Medicine to be kinda irrelevant. Even when surrounded by mobs I rarely get more than 5 stacks going, and I have somewhere north of 40% deflect. It's far outweighed by Lifesteal.
I find Wilds Medicine to be kinda irrelevant. Even when surrounded by mobs I rarely get more than 5 stacks going, and I have somewhere north of 40% deflect. It's far outweighed by Lifesteal.
It's a bit irrelevant in most PvE.
It's extremely useful in PvP when some guy spams stuff like RoF on you. I had some ACT data from PvP somewhere, WM heals account for about 20-30%, and LS for 40%+ or so.
I find Wilds Medicine to be kinda irrelevant. Even when surrounded by mobs I rarely get more than 5 stacks going, and I have somewhere north of 40% deflect. It's far outweighed by Lifesteal.
WM is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> really. In pack of mobs it is around 4-6. I did once before calcs for GC on preview thread. It basicaly takes 15 s of ideal conditions to get WM to 10. possible only in theory. And even if looked at it before nerf with 1 sec of ICD - WM was healing around 10-15% of health. LS and regen do more then WM. So all who really cry about WM too much are basically never played HR or think in theory only.
Most of my data came from pve at that time. But even now with all undodgable and undeflectable damage WM is really like 2-3 stacks only. And it does not help in any case if you are rooted and frozen by CW, if you did not deflected starting encounter for dot, or if you are stunned by GWF stuff or bashed by GF.
Just for note I have pretty big regen ~ 1.5k-1.8k. And no investments in LS at all. But they still work better then WM. Like 2-4 times more.
Which makes us have to believe you, instead of the person who created the whole thing?
He checked it. He confirmed it is dodgeable, and he even (quite honestly) admitted that it might be practically impossible despite theoretically possible -- just like some of us have already told you.
You're basically calling him a liar, is that it?
The problem is between using the power and the target itself.
I don't say, that gentle lie or put out false facts.
The best comparison is to the dragon target bug.
Gentle would say there is no bug, because the dragons are flagged as targetable, but currently they sometime bug out and target locked powers can't target them while AoE/non target locked can still hit them. It isn't a friend/fiend issue either.
So even the 'practical impossible' isn't the core problem. As I said: Even if you are in the guardstance for a several seconds, it root you. So nothing with activation/animation/reaction/latency time problem is causing it.
So repaiting this isn't to annoy him, it's a call for digging through how such cases happen to solve it.
The problem is between using the power and the target itself.
I don't say, that gentle lie or put out false facts.
The best comparison is to the dragon target bug.
Gentle would say there is no bug, because the dragons are flagged as targetable, but currently they sometime bug out and target locked powers can't target them while AoE/non target locked can still hit them. It isn't a friend/fiend issue either.
So even the 'practical impossible' isn't the core problem. As I said: Even if you are in the guardstance for a several seconds, it root you. So nothing with activation/animation/reaction/latency time problem is causing it.
So repaiting this isn't to annoy him, it's a call for digging through how such cases happen to solve it.
I agree with you. Cause GS first stated it as dodgable. And only after more digging he found that it is "'practical impossible". Cause you really can be in middle of dodge and get rooted at the end of animation. It does looks like latency and game logic bug for me. Same one as it was with gwf bash/roar earlier - you dodge away already but got "flighted" back to gwf cause he did encounter. And don't become thoose GWF back at the days that cried same as you all do know about "not enough skill to dodge" and so on.
It was fixed in mod 4 by making dodge more responsive. But now IR are still like 1% dodgeble. Not reliable and does not depend on skill at all. I did dodge it too. But its like luck now rather then skill. So all what it has to be fixed is to make it reliable dodge rather then relly on how close you are on server and lucky today.
Interesting note to everyone here about Icy Rays. Try it on preview and see if dodging it got easier. While making it respect CC Str and Res I might have made it more consistently dodgable, even with latency.
Interesting note to everyone here about Icy Rays. Try it on preview and see if dodging it got easier. While making it respect CC Str and Res I might have made it more consistently dodgable, even with latency.
While you're at bugfixing, could you PLEASE address the GF's Knight's challenge bugs? It cancels out, without applying the buff/debuff if i get cc'ed during it's activation time and goes straight into cooldown.
(The same happens with: Fighter's recovery, Villain's menace, no CD here but we lose the entire AP.)
*Preferred solution, make KC and the other skills grant cc immunity upon casting, just like crescendo does.
Interesting note to everyone here about Icy Rays. Try it on preview and see if dodging it got easier. While making it respect CC Str and Res I might have made it more consistently dodgable, even with latency.
Thanks GS. Will try to test as soon as got time. Is there a way for all of encounters to respect CC Str and Res? Cause from history it seems that you are always fixing single cases and not core system defect imho.
Also problem with latency is that you need to test it at 4-9 time period when all servers are crazy busy. Not really an issue for preview since there is always way less people. But still worse testing.
Interesting note to everyone here about Icy Rays. Try it on preview and see if dodging it got easier. While making it respect CC Str and Res I might have made it more consistently dodgable, even with latency.
Would you revert it to a harder to dodge state if it was the case? As it is on live a "stay here and take more" spell is kind of nice.
I didn't see anyone complaining about icy rays before and it is working just like it always has. I think the real problem is the massive amounts of damage that are being dealt on players in the 2 seconds after the target is immobilized. They are nerfing the control duration, lets just see how that goes before further crippling the skill.
PB was *not* doing what was intended, and that fix will let us better make any fixes required to make Combat HRs more PVE viable in the future without majorly disrupting existing PVP balance. The nice thing about the Piercing Blade change is that it (in cases of well organized parties) will be a *buff* to PVE Rangers. This is because it was looking at the damage before resistance was getting involved, even if the target had negative resistance to you. Therefore you might actually see more damage output in PVE while it will behave correctly in PVP. This is important for tweaking the different playstyles to fit into both PVE and PVP parties.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Crush can you please what do you meen by "This is because it was looking at the damage before resistance was getting involved, even if the target had negative resistance to you. Therefore you might actually see more damage output in PVE" ?
Does this meens that if you have Resistance ignored > Damage resistance of target you will be getting extra damage bonus?
Does this will apply just for PB or is general rule?
This is important stuff really. And if now apply negative resistance to you as damage bonus - it will be great boost for pve HRs and wont really effect PvP part. are you thinking to make it multiplicative or addictive? Thank you for reply.
I didn't see anyone complaining about icy rays before and it is working just like it always has. I think the real problem is the massive amounts of damage that are being dealt on players in the 2 seconds after the target is immobilized. They are nerfing the control duration, lets just see how that goes before further crippling the skill.
That is true. problem from undogable IR is that it roots you and you are open for any attack. and when you are frozen, obviously after IR start, you are both shattered and can not dodge or deflect any damage. So 2 things for IR fix would be good. Respect CR and Control bonus would make it more gear dependable rather then plain works 100% no sweet. But making is reliable dodgeable will make it more skill dependable - both skill to place and skill to dodge -hope more skillful game-play we are hopping to achieve
Undodgable is just small part of the PVP being so bad
GF do more range damage then CW and HR
HR survive more then GF, GWF and DC
control and damage are completely out of proportion, some classes cant even move
PVP is completely broken now, its not just undodgables / overload enchants
That is true. problem from undogable IR is that it roots you and you are open for any attack. and when you are frozen, obviously after IR start, you are both shattered and can not dodge or deflect any damage. So 2 things for IR fix would be good. Respect CR and Control bonus would make it more gear dependable rather then plain works 100% no sweet. But making is reliable dodgeable will make it more skill dependable - both skill to place and skill to dodge -hope more skillful game-play we are hopping to achieve
Fine with me as long as every skill every other class has also fully respects a dodges immunity window.
You are outright lying. What you did was so happen to move out of range of thier attacks when they activated via dodging, thus the attack not actually hitting you. Not actually dodging.
I feel a thing is not clarified yet. HR survivability mostly relies on lifesteal. Lifesteal depends on damage. If HR damage depends all on the armor/reduction of his opponent, there is NO WAY to balance the class. Just because in that case HRs would not survive at any time against GWF or GF because of their great armor, while devastating mages and rogues who would not be able even to hurt him. PB is the only way to balance it, a damage that will land anyway, the perfect equilibrium.
And as I already told HR have to get in MELEE to activate it. I would be much more worried about mages terrifyng damage, who from beyond the line can send people to cemetery in two seconds (and further controlling them).
Furthermore, PB has been already tested for a long time and brought to its current value because DEVS appurated that IF LOWER, the HR was completely broken both for pvp and pve. This solution was reached after months of work and I don't think funny people claiming 12k of PB (that means 30k in one hit, actually impossible for HR) or saying "an HR just killed me!! Nerf it!!" without any information about gear, buffs from pots, buff from party, etc. will make this change.
This game never disappointed me and it wont begin now.
And by the way, I invite who thinks Wild Medicine can save you in a fight, to just walk in front of a decent geared mage with and without WM, and to tell me the difference.
Crush can you please what do you meen by "This is because it was looking at the damage before resistance was getting involved, even if the target had negative resistance to you. Therefore you might actually see more damage output in PVE" ?
Does this meens that if you have Resistance ignored > Damage resistance of target you will be getting extra damage bonus?
Does this will apply just for PB or is general rule?
This is important stuff really. And if now apply negative resistance to you as damage bonus - it will be great boost for pve HRs and wont really effect PvP part. are you thinking to make it multiplicative or addictive? Thank you for reply.
Resistance Ignored will not take a target into negative DR. However, stacking debuffs like PF stacks, HV stacks, etc. WILL. But only in PvE.
So if you're in a party that stacks debuffs you will now get the benefit from this on PB whereas before you didn't, because PB ignored ALL resistances whether positive or negative.
Resistance Ignored will not take a target into negative DR. However, stacking debuffs like PF stacks, HV stacks, etc. WILL. But only in PvE.
So if you're in a party that stacks debuffs you will now get the benefit from this on PB whereas before you didn't, because PB ignored ALL resistances whether positive or negative.
Not sure if that'd still wield higher damage results than the way it procs 40% damage based on unmitigated values. IMO, unless it's a really debuff-heavy party, most people will definately feel a direct hit on damage levels, particularly with powers that used to yield shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of damage, such as Fox's Shift.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Not sure if that'd still wield higher damage results than the way it procs 40% damage based on unmitigated values. IMO, unless it's a really debuff-heavy party, most people will definately feel a direct hit on damage levels, particularly with powers that used to yield shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of damage, such as Fox's Shift.
Most if not all PvE HRs will have capped ArP anyway, so PB was a flat 40% DPS buff on non-debuffed targets before this change and will be a flat 40% DPS buff on non-debuffed targets after this change. The difference is that on heavily debuffed targets you'll now get bonus damage. So for PvE it's DPS neutral at worst and a DPS buff in certain circumstances.
In PvP it's a drop in DPS against any target with more DR than the HR has RI. Period. No negative DR in PvP.
In PvP it's a drop in DPS against any target with more DR than the HR has RI. Period. No negative DR in PvP.
...which reminds me. What's the reasoning for this?
Heavy stacking of DR, pushing it into negative, would have been a very viable method of dealing with enemies with exceptionally strong defense, such as GWFs circa. mod2. It would also have justified a debuff-specialized builds, and team-play coming from it, such as a team of strong debuffer + glass cannon striker.
If the reason was to "guarantee strong-defense classes at least maintain 0 DR, and never fall into negative DR (=conceptually "extra damage"), then that's a very foolhardy thing to do, as for instance no such concessions are made anywhere else.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
So base root duration nearly HALVED for single target. Although it's not clear how much of a boost Control Strength will give it after that.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
About 7% from Wisdom if PvP CW. We usually don't employ +CC Strength boons or artifacts.
1) Icy Rays, Assailant and all these abilities are RANGED, while Piercing Blade is MELEE...have you never fought in melee?!?! you get into HELL, you expose yourself to mages/warlocks hits from side, you have to get totally uncovered to benefit from Piercing Blades. Mages instead, stay behind the combat line disintegrating people. CW and HR cannot be put at the same level on this point.
2) Hunter ranger does not have any damage reduction, any decent healing, nor armor. With these background conditions, bringing an hunter in melee is a TOTAL SUICIDE. The only thing that gives you a chance is lifesteal, and it's easy to understand that it CANNOT DEPEND ON WHICH CLASS YOU ARE HITTING.
The amount of damage you take from players is studied to be balanced among classes, so try to say now that Piercing Blade is affected by armor, reduction, etc. If you go against against high armored players you wont do sufficient damage to keep you alive at all. While against soft armored, you would stay alive much longer. THIS RESULTS in a COMPLETE IMPOSSIBILITY TO BALANCE HR at a general level.
HR need something hitting the same amount whichever armor/reduction it meets.
3) Too many nerfs were done to this class in the last mod. HR lost Damage Reduction of Lone Wolf, lost PVP bonus set, lost ROOTS, Fox shift was nerfed two times. Just reduce the damage now by changing piercing blade, and you will eliminate the last chance for HR to be viable in PVP.
Stopped reading here.
Yeh. Please buff Wild Medicine. And I kinda want 60% Deflect to go with it as well. Also put Tenacity on the Royal Guard set, and I will be happy
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It's a bit irrelevant in most PvE.
It's extremely useful in PvP when some guy spams stuff like RoF on you. I had some ACT data from PvP somewhere, WM heals account for about 20-30%, and LS for 40%+ or so.
WM is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> really. In pack of mobs it is around 4-6. I did once before calcs for GC on preview thread. It basicaly takes 15 s of ideal conditions to get WM to 10. possible only in theory. And even if looked at it before nerf with 1 sec of ICD - WM was healing around 10-15% of health. LS and regen do more then WM. So all who really cry about WM too much are basically never played HR or think in theory only.
Most of my data came from pve at that time. But even now with all undodgable and undeflectable damage WM is really like 2-3 stacks only. And it does not help in any case if you are rooted and frozen by CW, if you did not deflected starting encounter for dot, or if you are stunned by GWF stuff or bashed by GF.
Just for note I have pretty big regen ~ 1.5k-1.8k. And no investments in LS at all. But they still work better then WM. Like 2-4 times more.
The problem is between using the power and the target itself.
I don't say, that gentle lie or put out false facts.
The best comparison is to the dragon target bug.
Gentle would say there is no bug, because the dragons are flagged as targetable, but currently they sometime bug out and target locked powers can't target them while AoE/non target locked can still hit them. It isn't a friend/fiend issue either.
So even the 'practical impossible' isn't the core problem. As I said: Even if you are in the guardstance for a several seconds, it root you. So nothing with activation/animation/reaction/latency time problem is causing it.
So repaiting this isn't to annoy him, it's a call for digging through how such cases happen to solve it.
I agree with you. Cause GS first stated it as dodgable. And only after more digging he found that it is "'practical impossible". Cause you really can be in middle of dodge and get rooted at the end of animation. It does looks like latency and game logic bug for me. Same one as it was with gwf bash/roar earlier - you dodge away already but got "flighted" back to gwf cause he did encounter. And don't become thoose GWF back at the days that cried same as you all do know about "not enough skill to dodge" and so on.
It was fixed in mod 4 by making dodge more responsive. But now IR are still like 1% dodgeble. Not reliable and does not depend on skill at all. I did dodge it too. But its like luck now rather then skill. So all what it has to be fixed is to make it reliable dodge rather then relly on how close you are on server and lucky today.
While you're at bugfixing, could you PLEASE address the GF's Knight's challenge bugs? It cancels out, without applying the buff/debuff if i get cc'ed during it's activation time and goes straight into cooldown.
(The same happens with: Fighter's recovery, Villain's menace, no CD here but we lose the entire AP.)
*Preferred solution, make KC and the other skills grant cc immunity upon casting, just like crescendo does.
Tyvm in advance.
Thanks GS. Will try to test as soon as got time. Is there a way for all of encounters to respect CC Str and Res? Cause from history it seems that you are always fixing single cases and not core system defect imho.
Also problem with latency is that you need to test it at 4-9 time period when all servers are crazy busy. Not really an issue for preview since there is always way less people. But still worse testing.
Would you revert it to a harder to dodge state if it was the case? As it is on live a "stay here and take more" spell is kind of nice.
Why would he revert a much needed fix? Doesn't make much sense.
Crush can you please what do you meen by "This is because it was looking at the damage before resistance was getting involved, even if the target had negative resistance to you. Therefore you might actually see more damage output in PVE" ?
Does this meens that if you have Resistance ignored > Damage resistance of target you will be getting extra damage bonus?
Does this will apply just for PB or is general rule?
This is important stuff really. And if now apply negative resistance to you as damage bonus - it will be great boost for pve HRs and wont really effect PvP part. are you thinking to make it multiplicative or addictive? Thank you for reply.
That is true. problem from undogable IR is that it roots you and you are open for any attack. and when you are frozen, obviously after IR start, you are both shattered and can not dodge or deflect any damage. So 2 things for IR fix would be good. Respect CR and Control bonus would make it more gear dependable rather then plain works 100% no sweet. But making is reliable dodgeable will make it more skill dependable - both skill to place and skill to dodge -hope more skillful game-play we are hopping to achieve
GF do more range damage then CW and HR
HR survive more then GF, GWF and DC
control and damage are completely out of proportion, some classes cant even move
PVP is completely broken now, its not just undodgables / overload enchants
Fine with me as long as every skill every other class has also fully respects a dodges immunity window.
well this is what PB fix is about.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
────────────────────────────
You are outright lying. What you did was so happen to move out of range of thier attacks when they activated via dodging, thus the attack not actually hitting you. Not actually dodging.
SAMOTHRACE
Trickster Rogue
────────────────────────────
I feel a thing is not clarified yet. HR survivability mostly relies on lifesteal. Lifesteal depends on damage. If HR damage depends all on the armor/reduction of his opponent, there is NO WAY to balance the class. Just because in that case HRs would not survive at any time against GWF or GF because of their great armor, while devastating mages and rogues who would not be able even to hurt him. PB is the only way to balance it, a damage that will land anyway, the perfect equilibrium.
And as I already told HR have to get in MELEE to activate it. I would be much more worried about mages terrifyng damage, who from beyond the line can send people to cemetery in two seconds (and further controlling them).
Furthermore, PB has been already tested for a long time and brought to its current value because DEVS appurated that IF LOWER, the HR was completely broken both for pvp and pve. This solution was reached after months of work and I don't think funny people claiming 12k of PB (that means 30k in one hit, actually impossible for HR) or saying "an HR just killed me!! Nerf it!!" without any information about gear, buffs from pots, buff from party, etc. will make this change.
This game never disappointed me and it wont begin now.
And by the way, I invite who thinks Wild Medicine can save you in a fight, to just walk in front of a decent geared mage with and without WM, and to tell me the difference.
So if you're in a party that stacks debuffs you will now get the benefit from this on PB whereas before you didn't, because PB ignored ALL resistances whether positive or negative.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
You reminded me of this:
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co.uk/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html
..which always raises a laugh, so thanks, I suppose.
Not sure if that'd still wield higher damage results than the way it procs 40% damage based on unmitigated values. IMO, unless it's a really debuff-heavy party, most people will definately feel a direct hit on damage levels, particularly with powers that used to yield shi*<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> of damage, such as Fox's Shift.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
In PvP it's a drop in DPS against any target with more DR than the HR has RI. Period. No negative DR in PvP.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
...which reminds me. What's the reasoning for this?
Heavy stacking of DR, pushing it into negative, would have been a very viable method of dealing with enemies with exceptionally strong defense, such as GWFs circa. mod2. It would also have justified a debuff-specialized builds, and team-play coming from it, such as a team of strong debuffer + glass cannon striker.
If the reason was to "guarantee strong-defense classes at least maintain 0 DR, and never fall into negative DR (=conceptually "extra damage"), then that's a very foolhardy thing to do, as for instance no such concessions are made anywhere else.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'