petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
There is really no point in people rambling on about this subject until the thread gets locked up. The issue still stands that it was never about the price going down. The Dragon pack being the only pack ever to be purchasable with Zen instead of real world currency is the root problem. Zen does not have the same value as real money thanks to the exchange... until people wrap their head around that being the real issue we just have a thread of people talking to themselves about a multitude of irreverent talking points. swoosh over most people's head seems to be the order of the day in this thread.
The fix is simple and they should just add all the packs to the zen store or they never should of put this one in there and started this whole mess to begin with. Bonus points for rewording my post because obviously some people know the thought in my own head better than I do?
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
I just bought a new cell phone--brand new, first day it's available on the carrier--for $150 with a 2-year contract. In six months they will be giving that cell phone away for free to people who sign a 2-year contract.
Now imagine that you'd paid for the phone in advance of availability because of an advertised pre-order discount. Then on release day, the phone isn't put on sale for the previously advertised price but for a lower price. Then, about six weeks later, the price goes down again.
Now ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a carrier do that?
Dragonborn didn't come out six months ago. They came out in the middle of August.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Now imagine that you'd paid for the phone in advance of availability because of an advertised pre-order discount. Then on release day, the phone isn't put on sale for the previously advertised price but for a lower price. Then, about six weeks later, the price goes down again.
Now ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a carrier do that?
Dragonborn didn't come out six months ago. They came out in the middle of August.
The Dragonborn Legend Pack didn't get priced at a lower price than the original sale price and the Dragonborn Legend Pack hasn't lowered in price since. Your argument is a tad invalid here and based upon a hypothetical situation that hasn't happened to the Dragonborn Legend Pack.
The Dragonborn Legend Pack didn't get priced at a lower price than the original sale price and the Dragonborn Legend Pack hasn't lowered in price since. Your argument is a tad invalid here and based upon a hypothetical situation that hasn't happened to the Dragonborn Legend Pack.
It was listed at release for less than the originally advertised price, which is what I said. Furthermore, as I and others have already pointed out ad nauseum the switch from cash-only to Zen actually did lower the price because of changes in the Zen purchase rate for large purchases and the ZAX.
As for the latter, that is technically correct but practically meaningless. Do you think they'd have sold as many of the $75 packs if the $25 one had been announced at the same time?
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
As for the latter, that is technically correct but practically meaningless. Do you think they'd have sold as many of the $75 packs if the $25 one had been announced at the same time?
Probably not, but they would have made more money doing both. They probably realize they missed an opportunity here, and they're adding it.
Again, it's what people asked for. I can't stress this enough. Go to the announcement thread here.
It's basically 75 pages of people complaining about the pack being too expensive, and how they'd be happy to buy it at a lower price. Cryptic obviously listened and responded...with a $25 option. And now people are up in arms again...sheesh.
You also have to understand, as one developer posted on Reddit when the pack was announced, that Cryptic is also still trying to figure out the pricing thing on their "free" game. They get advice and guidance from PWE, but ultimately they decide what to do. Obviously they intend for Neverwinter to run for years and years...but as they release new types of content, how they price it to make it a) fair to the customer and b) keep the game running for free for the 90% of players who DON'T pay anything. is going to be a moving target.
So they're not going to get it perfect every time. They're going to make mistakes in how they price and roll out things. But at least in this example we see them correctly those mistakes, instead of blindly carrying on as if they're 100% right 100% of the time.
Cryptic obviously listened and responded...with a $25 option. And now people are up in arms again...sheesh.
<rest snipped>
I wish it was that way. But I really, really, REALLY doubt it, given the world and Cryptic's own track record.
The goal of every sale is to sell it for the maximum somebody is willing to pay. If Cryptic comes out with a $25 race bundle, then a bunch of people buy for $25. If, on the other hand, they sell a $75 pack that SOME buy and THEN a $25 race that the rest buy ... well, they've made more money, haven't they?
Cryptic is a business, and a fairly experienced one. They know how much is "fair" or desired by the player-base, they don't need player QQ to show them (besides, if they cared about that, they would have just lowered the price after 30 pages of complaints). They also know how much they can price it to maximize profit. Which one do you think they go with?
I wish it was that way. But I really, really, REALLY doubt it, given the world and Cryptic's own track record.
The goal of every sale is to sell it for the maximum somebody is willing to pay. If Cryptic comes out with a $25 race bundle, then a bunch of people buy for $25. If, on the other hand, they sell a $75 pack that SOME buy and THEN a $25 race that the rest buy ... well, they've made more money, haven't they?
Cryptic is a business, and a fairly experienced one. They know how much is "fair" or desired by the player-base, they don't need player QQ to show them (besides, if they cared about that, they would have just lowered the price after 30 pages of complaints). They also know how much they can price it to maximize profit. Which one do you think they go with?
Actually I'm fairly sure the flow of events was...
1. Release pack at $75 intending to raise price to $100 once intro sale ends.
2. Sales at $75 are less than stellar, so abandon plans to raise price to $100. Add ZEN store option to boost sales.
3. Sales of $75/7500 pack just about dry up. However, many players claim to be interested in the race alone. Release $25 race only pack to get some additional return on investment while also giving players what they've asked for. Win-win.
It's a straightforward set of business decisions. No drama, no deceit, no hidden agenda. This game is not a charity and needs to generate money to survive.
They also know how much they can price it to maximize profit. Which one do you think they go with?
When you're basically giving away 99.9% of your product, you have to maximize profit on everything you sell. That's how you get everything else in the game for free.
Think about it. Name some other major MMO that gives you access to all the content in the game for free? Neverwinter is one of the truly F2P games that allows a person to roll a character, pick ANY class they want and experience the entire game, including the expansion content without spending a single dime.
You can roll the latest and greatest class, level to max, complete every zone, participate in every campaign, do every skirmish and run every dungeon AS MUCH AS YOU WANT for absolutely zero. And you can do it without any character limitations. There's no "free player" gimp mode that you have to pay to remove, like many other "free" games. There's no limit to how much you can play, how fast you can level or what gear you can wear. It's all free. You have 100% access to all the game content for as long as you want.
But ultimately to keep ALL that free for EVERYONE, they have to make money somewhere. At that somewhere is here.
And if you don't like it, the ONLY way you're going to get that point across is to take your play time elsewhere.
Sorry for the rant, but it just blows my mind how much Cryptic can give people for free, yet people on this board incessantly cry about the 0.1% of stuff they DON'T get for free. That trope has gotten so old, it's mind-numbing.
Actually I'm fairly sure the flow of events was...
1. Release pack at $75 intending to raise price to $100 once intro sale ends.
2. Sales at $75 are less than stellar, so abandon plans to raise price to $100. Add ZEN store option to boost sales.
3. Sales of $75/7500 pack just about dry up. However, many players claim to be interested in the race alone. Release $25 race only pack to get some additional return on investment while also giving players what they've asked for. Win-win.
It's a straightforward set of business decisions. No drama, no deceit, no hidden agenda. This game is not a charity and needs to generate money to survive.
Think about it. Name some other major MMO that gives you access to all the content in the game for free?
RIFT and SWTOR to name two that I've played. But both have significant bonuses for subscribers/patrons/whatever - in the case of SWTOR it makes almost no sense to try and play the game for free. NWO is much more egalitarian.
Actually I'm fairly sure the flow of events was...
1. Release pack at $75 intending to raise price to $100 once intro sale ends.
2. Sales at $75 are less than stellar, so abandon plans to raise price to $100. Add ZEN store option to boost sales.
3. Sales of $75/7500 pack just about dry up. However, many players claim to be interested in the race alone. Release $25 race only pack to get some additional return on investment while also giving players what they've asked for. Win-win.
Actually, that's probably more correct. Thank you.
<snip>
Sorry for the rant, but it just blows my mind how much Cryptic can give people for free, yet people on this board incessantly cry about the 0.1% of stuff they DON'T get for free. That trope has gotten so old, it's mind-numbing.
Don't get me wrong, I love the F2P aspect of this game. The problem is not that people don't get the Dragonborn Pack for free (everybody can accept that there needs to be a source of revenue for this game). There are deep-rooted issues with not only the pricing, but the way the Dragonborn Pack was marked as on "sale" and the fact that many of those only wanting the race bought the more expensive pack believing it was the only way to get the race (iirc the original announcement did use the word "exclusive").
I personally am not surprised at all by this turn of events, and I don't think it's unwarranted (see previous post for similar thing with phones). The problem is that the marketing associated with the Dragonborn race has been one disaster after another. "Exclusive" to the $75 pack? Nope, not anymore. $100 pack "on sale"? Lol no. Not to mention that buying it afterwards in the Zen Store would, in fact, be CHEAPER than buying it straight $75.
People don't care that they have to spend money. It's how Cryptic's been handling it's advertising that's an issue. They need to be more clear and up front about this in the future, I think. That's my 2 cents.
Well my whole experience of the game especially over the last half year will mean that I'll probably review the xbox version 2/5 to inform people of what to expect.
It's basically 75 pages of people complaining about the pack being too expensive, and how they'd be happy to buy it at a lower price. Cryptic obviously listened and responded...with a $25 option. And now people are up in arms again...sheesh.
If we're talking about the 'sale' then Cryptic could have released it at a high price on purpose or even to see if they could get sales that way and when it didn't work out lower it pretending it was our decision that did it. Of course that's a little on the conspiracy side and aren't suggesting that actually is how it is, but if you say it's ok then you're giving them the ability to do that. It's not the original backers fault that they incorrectly offered it at the wrong price, but they were the ones that decided if they didn't do it now then if they decided they actually wanted the race, then it'd be too late in a way as it'd be less worth it when in actual fact they could've waited, used zen or AD they actually had, and have the advantage of hearing from others whether the race works out.
You also have to understand, as one developer posted on Reddit when the pack was announced, that Cryptic is also still trying to figure out the pricing thing on their "free" game. They get advice and guidance from PWE, but ultimately they decide what to do. Obviously they intend for Neverwinter to run for years and years...but as they release new types of content, how they price it to make it a) fair to the customer and b) keep the game running for free for the 90% of players who DON'T pay anything. is going to be a moving target.
I'd be disappointed if it did last years. Last year I would've been happy for it to, but the direction they took and flaws make me think otherwise.
So they're not going to get it perfect every time. They're going to make mistakes in how they price and roll out things. But at least in this example we see them correctly those mistakes, instead of blindly carrying on as if they're 100% right 100% of the time.
Give it a break already.
It's hardly unfair to expect some perk of preordering a pack that was meant to give us a discount and didn't... Reward the backers, don't mislead them intentionally or not.
It's a straightforward set of business decisions. No drama, no deceit, no hidden agenda. This game is not a charity and needs to generate money to survive.
Stating it was on offer and exclusive when it wasn't is fraud because more people will buy it for those reasons when it didn't hold true. It's not rocket science to understand that. As I said in a previous thread what's to stop some company releasing said packs at an offer with an intent to actually release it at the price and never offer it for the advertised full price. That is why it's fraud, to close the ability to exploit it and not to exploit the fact that people will buy your product due to that false information. Of someone came up to you and offered something as a deal if you buy today, you buy it, come back tomorrow and have it at the same price. Surely you'd understand people being unhappy about that?
Stating it was on offer and exclusive when it wasn't is fraud because more people will buy it for those reasons when it didn't hold true. It's not rocket science to understand that. As I said in a previous thread what's to stop some company releasing said packs at an offer with an intent to actually release it at the price and never offer it for the advertised full price. That is why it's fraud, to close the ability to exploit it and not to exploit the fact that people will buy your product due to that false information. Of someone came up to you and offered something as a deal if you buy today, you buy it, come back tomorrow and have it at the same price. Surely you'd understand people being unhappy about that?
Frauds a pretty big exaggeration. I'm pretty sure they didn't sit in the focus room going "We should offer the pack as a limited sale, then don't actually take it off sale, this way we don't ever sell the product for a higher price, and we <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everyone off." It was a mistake. Everyone makes them, I'm pretty sure you're not a flawless human being. A previous poster stated it best. They probably saw the limited sales even at $75 dollars and went "that's abysmal". At that point you can't raise the price back up because you definitely won't sell more then. So you do the next logical step, put it on the zen market, so people can at least buy half from you directly, and trade their AD for someone else bought zen for it.
It's time to take off the tinfoil hats people and realize cryptic just goofed badly. They weren't out to fool anyone. And if anyone bought the pack, and didn't use anything out of it, I'm sure cryptic will give you a refund. If the bought the pack at 75, expecting it to go up to 100, then they were planning on buying the pack anyway. Just at a better deal. I doubt anyone was sitting there going "Hmmm I don't really want this pack, but it IS 25 dollars cheaper for now..."
Frauds a pretty big exaggeration. I'm pretty sure they didn't sit in the focus room going "We should offer the pack as a limited sale, then don't actually take it off sale, this way we don't ever sell the product for a higher price, and we <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everyone off." It was a mistake. Everyone makes them, I'm pretty sure you're not a flawless human being. A previous poster stated it best. They probably saw the limited sales even at $75 dollars and went "that's abysmal". At that point you can't raise the price back up because you definitely won't sell more then. So you do the next logical step, put it on the zen market, so people can at least buy half from you directly, and trade their AD for someone else bought zen for it.
It's time to take off the tinfoil hats people and realize cryptic just goofed badly. They weren't out to fool anyone. And if anyone bought the pack, and didn't use anything out of it, I'm sure cryptic will give you a refund. If the bought the pack at 75, expecting it to go up to 100, then they were planning on buying the pack anyway. Just at a better deal. I doubt anyone was sitting there going "Hmmm I don't really want this pack, but it IS 25 dollars cheaper for now..."
Well I'm just laying it on the table on what I consider it as, you're welcome to think otherwise. They did however have the opportunity to remove the sale offer before the sale expiration ended since it's highly doubtful that they finalised the decision the moment it did instead of concluding from sales figures beforehand. Therefore they continued to advertise and gain extra sales that way.
I also forgot that I wanted to say that I thought they they probably could've made more sales if they made it more well known that they added value to the pack. I think most people may have missed the pack update. I'm not expecting them to be perfect. I'm asking them to not advertise statements that aren't true and then refuse to compensate the ones who bought into those claims in some form. I would've gladly taken 25% of the value in zen after all I was advertised a 25% and that was the whole point of preordering it. It's not like you got an early start or anything especially when the race was disable for hours on release.
I do think the company has overall messed up too many times, but in this case, all they needed to do was make it up to us and they didn't. Therefore I'm criticising the action they took. Asking for 25% of the actually value wasn't asking for much since it was the advertised discount, but they unfortunately wouldn't give me that as even zen. It's the way it was all handled that I don't like.
Personally I thought $75 was a little much already. Sales actually affect my way of thinking that a discount of 100 to $75 would increase my chances to buy much more than if it was always offered at $75. I don't want to miss out but instead of being rewarded, I was tricked whether they meant to or not, that's how it came out. Plus there's the fact that I would've rather used AD->zen than spend my money. The way it came out only reinforces that mindset. By having the preorder offer that's telling me I shouldn't wait to see if it may come out in the zen store which none of the other cash packs have.
I'm ok with the money I paid for the Dragonborn pack. With 19 characters (7 of which see regular use, and all of those 7 have been into IWD), that mean 580 more inventory slots, plus the purple artifact and ring for each. Makes levelling much easier.
Am I shocked that a lower-price option is available to get the race? Not at all. The "exclusive" Drow were exclusive for 90 days after launch. It's no surprise that there is a for the company to get a bit more money out of people - that's what they exist to do. And seeing as a lot of the complaining on the forum was about how $75 "for a race" was way too much, I don't see a problem with the inclusion of the race change token. I imagine there will be more than a few that take advantage of it, and it's a logical tie-in.
Stating it was on offer and exclusive when it wasn't is fraud because more people will buy it for those reasons when it didn't hold true. It's not rocket science to understand that.
Um... no. No it isn't. And to even suggest that it is shows precious little understanding of business and libel laws TBH.
Businesses do it all the time. Do you go to the store and complain that the brand new video game came out and cost $60 when you bought it only to return to the store a month later and the price dropped? I see it all the time and is why I tend to wait long after a new release before purchasing anything. With the $75 you got many great items, it is not Cryptic's fault you paid it simply because of the race. It is like buying a preordered game for $10 more simply because of the added DLC but discard said addition then get pissy when the game comes out cheaper without the content. Think, people, please. You were born with a brain, use it.
I believe I meant to say something else for the purpose of moderation but still stand by my comment
If you got the items advertised for the price you agreed to pay for them then it wasn't fraud. Simple. Or any other kind of sharp practice for that matter. Caveat Emptor and all that.
If you got the items advertised for the price you agreed to pay for them then it wasn't fraud. Simple. Or any other kind of sharp practice for that matter. Caveat Emptor and all that.
I paid for a limited time deal. I didn't get a deal.
/discussion. Nothing else for me to add.
Again, it's what people asked for. I can't stress this enough. Go to the announcement thread here.
Yeah, I was there. I don't care if it's what people asked for. That doesn't make it right.
It's basically 75 pages of people complaining about the pack being too expensive, and how they'd be happy to buy it at a lower price. Cryptic obviously listened and responded...with a $25 option. And now people are up in arms again...sheesh.
People are upset because releasing a cheaper way to buy the Dragonborn unlock this soon after the initial launch, which was already troubled, indicates that Cryptic's people are either totally clueless or just don't care about customer relations.
You also have to understand, as one developer posted on Reddit when the pack was announced, that Cryptic is also still trying to figure out the pricing thing on their "free" game.
Codswallop; they've been running two F2P titles themselves for years and have the entire industry's history and experiences to learn from.
So they're not going to get it perfect every time. They're going to make mistakes in how they price and roll out things. But at least in this example we see them correctly those mistakes, instead of blindly carrying on as if they're 100% right 100% of the time.
They have not corrected their mistake; they have exacerbated it. This is the point -- they just keep making it worse. When you make a mistake you make amends, or at the very least apologize. Cryptic has not only done neither, they've actually gone in completely the other direction by compounding the error.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
So, giving the people what they are asking for is wrong? Can you explain your logic in that? I mean, people wanted a cheaper alternative to the $75 pack. Cryptic gave that to them - and you're saying it's not right? How so?
As to the price cut - I don't see it as a 'cheaper' way - I see it as a 'bare bones' version. The $75 pack has the Corinthian leather interior, bluetooth, GPS - the works, all the bells and whistles. The $25 version - well, it has 4 wheels. If people buy at $75, great. Now that it's available at $25, I imagine some of the people wanting a cheaper option will grab it. In a couple months, you might be able to get a $15 version with *just* the race and no token.
People were still willing to pay $200 for the Menzo. Drow in the Hero pack, even *after* it was announced that Drow would be exclusive "for at least 90 days after launch". So, if having a Drow *now* was worth that much to that person, they paid it.
I'm not seeing how Cryptic has made a mistake here. They set the bar high, got what they could, released a lesser version of the package at a lower price point, and will reap the revenue from that, and eventually likely just put the race out for sale (or possibly even just make it free). Not seeing how monetizing an asset in a F2P game in this manner is a mistake.
And just because they have other games that have gone F2P doesn't mean that those games economic models will hold true here. It's not like they can just grab a different model of transactions (like, say PoE's strictly cosmetic shop) and abruptly shift to it. What they have seems to be working, overall, and they are still adjusting things based on the market. Not seeing how thinking they could / would raise the price of the Dragonborn pack post-sale, then not is anything other than 1. a change of heart or 2. adjusting to the market forces at work.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Yeah, I was there. I don't care if it's what people asked for. That doesn't make it right.
People are upset because releasing a cheaper way to buy the Dragonborn unlock this soon after the initial launch, which was already troubled, indicates that Cryptic's people are either totally clueless or just don't care about customer relations.
Again, you're mixing apples and oranges. The Dragonborn was never offered as a stand-alone add on for $75. Just because YOU didn't feel like the extras were worth the money, doesn't mean they weren't part of the overall value of the package. To continue to discount that is being intellectually dishonest.
And yes, was it a mistake to not offer a cheaper stand-along option? I think so. Which is why they now offer a cheaper, stand-alone option. If they could step back in the time machine and redo it, I'll be my last AD they would. And I'm willing to bet that next time they release a race like the Dragonborn, you'll see a menu of options for that race. Probably a basic "class only" pack, a "class starter" pac, and a "premium here's a lot of cool stuff" pack. But only time will tell on that.
But to call them clueless or to say they don't care about their customers, when they absolutely took their feedback to heart is pretty baseless.
Codswallop; they've been running two F2P titles themselves for years and have the entire industry's history and experiences to learn from.
This is the first "ground up" F2P game they've run. They still have subscription options to STO and CO, and those games were built as being sub-based, but failed to attract the number of subscribers necessary. Hence they are still learning on how to monetize a pure F2P game.
And talking about "an entire industry's history and experiences to learn from"...that's what? Like four yeasr? Maybe 5? F2P hasn't been around very long, as far as the "industry goes" and there are very few, if any other AAA mainstream MMO's that started F2P, not transitioned to F2P, which is a very different beast.
F2P use to be the fallback plan when subscription games failed. Almost all of the "F2P" games out there are re-launches of failed sub games. Neverwinter is one of the first to actually attack that space from the ground up, not be forced there by circumstance.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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titaniumworldMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 28Arc User
edited September 2014
they should include a rage drake mount in the $75 pack, the standard version not the imperial. $75 is way over priced now for what amounts to a artifact and a bag everything else is either junk or can be obtained in the game with a small bit of work.
This is the first "ground up" F2P game they've run. They still have subscription options to STO and CO, and those games were built as being sub-based, but failed to attract the number of subscribers necessary. Hence they are still learning on how to monetize a pure F2P game.
And talking about "an entire industry's history and experiences to learn from"...that's what? Like four yeasr? Maybe 5? F2P hasn't been around very long, as far as the "industry goes" and there are very few, if any other AAA mainstream MMO's that started F2P, not transitioned to F2P, which is a very different beast.
F2P use to be the fallback plan when subscription games failed. Almost all of the "F2P" games out there are re-launches of failed sub games. Neverwinter is one of the first to actually attack that space from the ground up, not be forced there by circumstance.
Spot on. And most F2P games are in the same place regarding monetization - flailing around trying to find a price point that works for both the company and gamer, and a strategy that makes people WANT to spend money rather than feeling pressured into doing so.
Cryptic haven't got it right yet IMO but they're not exactly unique in that regard.
Spot on. And most F2P games are in the same place regarding monetization - flailing around trying to find a price point that works for both the company and gamer, and a strategy that makes people WANT to spend money rather than feeling pressured into doing so.
Cryptic haven't got it right yet IMO but they're not exactly unique in that regard.
The whole F3P thing is still a grand experiment in the industry on the west side of the pond from Asia. This is Cryptic's first genuine F2P like was quoted above - so far they've done pretty well, but it's still a big experiment and uncharted waters for them.
Obviously on a business sense the goal is to price items optimally for maximum profit, meaning at what price point will you have the maximum buyers at the maximum price? Just having more buyers does not money-make. It has to be the right number of buyers at the right price. If they sold Mounds for $2 everyone would buy them, then no one would (because everyone already has one) - and they still would not make as much money as they do now selling the for $15+
Here's another problem: how do you decide the price of something that's never been sold before (read: Dragonborn Pack)? Pricing new mounts and companions is easy because those prices are already established. But for something entirely new?
Problem: if the price is too low, too many people will buy it and there is no way they can ever justify raising the price. Price it too high and there's no way to reduce the price without seriously enraging the initial buyers (all of them).
Answer: Proffer a "discount sale" price to test the waters. See how sales go. If it goes gang busters, then raise the price o what you wanted originally. If the sales are mediocre, then lock the price in at the sale price (NO ONE loses anything, all buyers got what they paid for at the advertised price). If those sales slack-off, well refer to the problems mentioned above; answer: release a new "lesser" bundle for a lower price.
This is really drop-dead simple Business 101, folks. Get a clue.
This is still being argued about... Oh well. I see it as one of two ways.
1. They are giving players what they want. Maybe not what a single person wants. But many scoffed at the $75 price and cried out for a Dragonborn standalone. And here they are getting it. Not a bad thing.
2. Or perhaps it was a number of sales issue. They released the original pack on sale. What if it didn't sell like they thought it would at the reduced price. So they made the lower price permanent. No point in selling it at full price if they couldn't get the number of sales they wanted at a lower price point. Its still to early to slash the price (not without offending those that just bought it). So to get the numbers up they instead they offer a standalone 'bundle' at a third the cost. Again, nothing nefarious here. Just them trying to do business.
People seem to think Cryptic/PWE is out to get them or something. They are out to make money. Which they can't do if their customers are mad at them. They aren't intentionally trying to mess you over. Just stuff happens.
I mean I was slightly irked myself back in beta, when I bought the Howler mount. Then a week later they not only put it on sale, but reduced the regular price of it as well. Stuff happens. It was just bad timing. I mean you can always find something to blame the company for. I could blame them that my characters hair is still messed up on that Howler I bought. But some things you just have to let go of. Gotta get over it and move on.
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The fix is simple and they should just add all the packs to the zen store or they never should of put this one in there and started this whole mess to begin with. Bonus points for rewording my post because obviously some people know the thought in my own head better than I do?
Now imagine that you'd paid for the phone in advance of availability because of an advertised pre-order discount. Then on release day, the phone isn't put on sale for the previously advertised price but for a lower price. Then, about six weeks later, the price goes down again.
Now ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a carrier do that?
Dragonborn didn't come out six months ago. They came out in the middle of August.
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It was listed at release for less than the originally advertised price, which is what I said. Furthermore, as I and others have already pointed out ad nauseum the switch from cash-only to Zen actually did lower the price because of changes in the Zen purchase rate for large purchases and the ZAX.
As for the latter, that is technically correct but practically meaningless. Do you think they'd have sold as many of the $75 packs if the $25 one had been announced at the same time?
Probably not, but they would have made more money doing both. They probably realize they missed an opportunity here, and they're adding it.
Again, it's what people asked for. I can't stress this enough. Go to the announcement thread here.
It's basically 75 pages of people complaining about the pack being too expensive, and how they'd be happy to buy it at a lower price. Cryptic obviously listened and responded...with a $25 option. And now people are up in arms again...sheesh.
You also have to understand, as one developer posted on Reddit when the pack was announced, that Cryptic is also still trying to figure out the pricing thing on their "free" game. They get advice and guidance from PWE, but ultimately they decide what to do. Obviously they intend for Neverwinter to run for years and years...but as they release new types of content, how they price it to make it a) fair to the customer and b) keep the game running for free for the 90% of players who DON'T pay anything. is going to be a moving target.
So they're not going to get it perfect every time. They're going to make mistakes in how they price and roll out things. But at least in this example we see them correctly those mistakes, instead of blindly carrying on as if they're 100% right 100% of the time.
Give it a break already.
I wish it was that way. But I really, really, REALLY doubt it, given the world and Cryptic's own track record.
The goal of every sale is to sell it for the maximum somebody is willing to pay. If Cryptic comes out with a $25 race bundle, then a bunch of people buy for $25. If, on the other hand, they sell a $75 pack that SOME buy and THEN a $25 race that the rest buy ... well, they've made more money, haven't they?
Cryptic is a business, and a fairly experienced one. They know how much is "fair" or desired by the player-base, they don't need player QQ to show them (besides, if they cared about that, they would have just lowered the price after 30 pages of complaints). They also know how much they can price it to maximize profit. Which one do you think they go with?
1. Release pack at $75 intending to raise price to $100 once intro sale ends.
2. Sales at $75 are less than stellar, so abandon plans to raise price to $100. Add ZEN store option to boost sales.
3. Sales of $75/7500 pack just about dry up. However, many players claim to be interested in the race alone. Release $25 race only pack to get some additional return on investment while also giving players what they've asked for. Win-win.
It's a straightforward set of business decisions. No drama, no deceit, no hidden agenda. This game is not a charity and needs to generate money to survive.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
When you're basically giving away 99.9% of your product, you have to maximize profit on everything you sell. That's how you get everything else in the game for free.
Think about it. Name some other major MMO that gives you access to all the content in the game for free? Neverwinter is one of the truly F2P games that allows a person to roll a character, pick ANY class they want and experience the entire game, including the expansion content without spending a single dime.
You can roll the latest and greatest class, level to max, complete every zone, participate in every campaign, do every skirmish and run every dungeon AS MUCH AS YOU WANT for absolutely zero. And you can do it without any character limitations. There's no "free player" gimp mode that you have to pay to remove, like many other "free" games. There's no limit to how much you can play, how fast you can level or what gear you can wear. It's all free. You have 100% access to all the game content for as long as you want.
But ultimately to keep ALL that free for EVERYONE, they have to make money somewhere. At that somewhere is here.
And if you don't like it, the ONLY way you're going to get that point across is to take your play time elsewhere.
Sorry for the rant, but it just blows my mind how much Cryptic can give people for free, yet people on this board incessantly cry about the 0.1% of stuff they DON'T get for free. That trope has gotten so old, it's mind-numbing.
Winner: Best comment RE: this thread.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Actually, that's probably more correct. Thank you.
Don't get me wrong, I love the F2P aspect of this game. The problem is not that people don't get the Dragonborn Pack for free (everybody can accept that there needs to be a source of revenue for this game). There are deep-rooted issues with not only the pricing, but the way the Dragonborn Pack was marked as on "sale" and the fact that many of those only wanting the race bought the more expensive pack believing it was the only way to get the race (iirc the original announcement did use the word "exclusive").
I personally am not surprised at all by this turn of events, and I don't think it's unwarranted (see previous post for similar thing with phones). The problem is that the marketing associated with the Dragonborn race has been one disaster after another. "Exclusive" to the $75 pack? Nope, not anymore. $100 pack "on sale"? Lol no. Not to mention that buying it afterwards in the Zen Store would, in fact, be CHEAPER than buying it straight $75.
People don't care that they have to spend money. It's how Cryptic's been handling it's advertising that's an issue. They need to be more clear and up front about this in the future, I think. That's my 2 cents.
If we're talking about the 'sale' then Cryptic could have released it at a high price on purpose or even to see if they could get sales that way and when it didn't work out lower it pretending it was our decision that did it. Of course that's a little on the conspiracy side and aren't suggesting that actually is how it is, but if you say it's ok then you're giving them the ability to do that. It's not the original backers fault that they incorrectly offered it at the wrong price, but they were the ones that decided if they didn't do it now then if they decided they actually wanted the race, then it'd be too late in a way as it'd be less worth it when in actual fact they could've waited, used zen or AD they actually had, and have the advantage of hearing from others whether the race works out.
I'd be disappointed if it did last years. Last year I would've been happy for it to, but the direction they took and flaws make me think otherwise.
It's hardly unfair to expect some perk of preordering a pack that was meant to give us a discount and didn't... Reward the backers, don't mislead them intentionally or not.
Stating it was on offer and exclusive when it wasn't is fraud because more people will buy it for those reasons when it didn't hold true. It's not rocket science to understand that. As I said in a previous thread what's to stop some company releasing said packs at an offer with an intent to actually release it at the price and never offer it for the advertised full price. That is why it's fraud, to close the ability to exploit it and not to exploit the fact that people will buy your product due to that false information. Of someone came up to you and offered something as a deal if you buy today, you buy it, come back tomorrow and have it at the same price. Surely you'd understand people being unhappy about that?
*looks at zen store*. Yeah I gathered it's not a charity.
Frauds a pretty big exaggeration. I'm pretty sure they didn't sit in the focus room going "We should offer the pack as a limited sale, then don't actually take it off sale, this way we don't ever sell the product for a higher price, and we <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> everyone off." It was a mistake. Everyone makes them, I'm pretty sure you're not a flawless human being. A previous poster stated it best. They probably saw the limited sales even at $75 dollars and went "that's abysmal". At that point you can't raise the price back up because you definitely won't sell more then. So you do the next logical step, put it on the zen market, so people can at least buy half from you directly, and trade their AD for someone else bought zen for it.
It's time to take off the tinfoil hats people and realize cryptic just goofed badly. They weren't out to fool anyone. And if anyone bought the pack, and didn't use anything out of it, I'm sure cryptic will give you a refund. If the bought the pack at 75, expecting it to go up to 100, then they were planning on buying the pack anyway. Just at a better deal. I doubt anyone was sitting there going "Hmmm I don't really want this pack, but it IS 25 dollars cheaper for now..."
Well I'm just laying it on the table on what I consider it as, you're welcome to think otherwise. They did however have the opportunity to remove the sale offer before the sale expiration ended since it's highly doubtful that they finalised the decision the moment it did instead of concluding from sales figures beforehand. Therefore they continued to advertise and gain extra sales that way.
I also forgot that I wanted to say that I thought they they probably could've made more sales if they made it more well known that they added value to the pack. I think most people may have missed the pack update. I'm not expecting them to be perfect. I'm asking them to not advertise statements that aren't true and then refuse to compensate the ones who bought into those claims in some form. I would've gladly taken 25% of the value in zen after all I was advertised a 25% and that was the whole point of preordering it. It's not like you got an early start or anything especially when the race was disable for hours on release.
I do think the company has overall messed up too many times, but in this case, all they needed to do was make it up to us and they didn't. Therefore I'm criticising the action they took. Asking for 25% of the actually value wasn't asking for much since it was the advertised discount, but they unfortunately wouldn't give me that as even zen. It's the way it was all handled that I don't like.
Personally I thought $75 was a little much already. Sales actually affect my way of thinking that a discount of 100 to $75 would increase my chances to buy much more than if it was always offered at $75. I don't want to miss out but instead of being rewarded, I was tricked whether they meant to or not, that's how it came out. Plus there's the fact that I would've rather used AD->zen than spend my money. The way it came out only reinforces that mindset. By having the preorder offer that's telling me I shouldn't wait to see if it may come out in the zen store which none of the other cash packs have.
Am I shocked that a lower-price option is available to get the race? Not at all. The "exclusive" Drow were exclusive for 90 days after launch. It's no surprise that there is a for the company to get a bit more money out of people - that's what they exist to do. And seeing as a lot of the complaining on the forum was about how $75 "for a race" was way too much, I don't see a problem with the inclusion of the race change token. I imagine there will be more than a few that take advantage of it, and it's a logical tie-in.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Cryptic/PWE are great and I will always support them !
I believe I meant to say something else for the purpose of moderation but still stand by my comment
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I paid for a limited time deal. I didn't get a deal.
/discussion. Nothing else for me to add.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Yeah, I was there. I don't care if it's what people asked for. That doesn't make it right.
People are upset because releasing a cheaper way to buy the Dragonborn unlock this soon after the initial launch, which was already troubled, indicates that Cryptic's people are either totally clueless or just don't care about customer relations.
Codswallop; they've been running two F2P titles themselves for years and have the entire industry's history and experiences to learn from.
They have not corrected their mistake; they have exacerbated it. This is the point -- they just keep making it worse. When you make a mistake you make amends, or at the very least apologize. Cryptic has not only done neither, they've actually gone in completely the other direction by compounding the error.
As to the price cut - I don't see it as a 'cheaper' way - I see it as a 'bare bones' version. The $75 pack has the Corinthian leather interior, bluetooth, GPS - the works, all the bells and whistles. The $25 version - well, it has 4 wheels. If people buy at $75, great. Now that it's available at $25, I imagine some of the people wanting a cheaper option will grab it. In a couple months, you might be able to get a $15 version with *just* the race and no token.
People were still willing to pay $200 for the Menzo. Drow in the Hero pack, even *after* it was announced that Drow would be exclusive "for at least 90 days after launch". So, if having a Drow *now* was worth that much to that person, they paid it.
I'm not seeing how Cryptic has made a mistake here. They set the bar high, got what they could, released a lesser version of the package at a lower price point, and will reap the revenue from that, and eventually likely just put the race out for sale (or possibly even just make it free). Not seeing how monetizing an asset in a F2P game in this manner is a mistake.
And just because they have other games that have gone F2P doesn't mean that those games economic models will hold true here. It's not like they can just grab a different model of transactions (like, say PoE's strictly cosmetic shop) and abruptly shift to it. What they have seems to be working, overall, and they are still adjusting things based on the market. Not seeing how thinking they could / would raise the price of the Dragonborn pack post-sale, then not is anything other than 1. a change of heart or 2. adjusting to the market forces at work.
Again, you're mixing apples and oranges. The Dragonborn was never offered as a stand-alone add on for $75. Just because YOU didn't feel like the extras were worth the money, doesn't mean they weren't part of the overall value of the package. To continue to discount that is being intellectually dishonest.
And yes, was it a mistake to not offer a cheaper stand-along option? I think so. Which is why they now offer a cheaper, stand-alone option. If they could step back in the time machine and redo it, I'll be my last AD they would. And I'm willing to bet that next time they release a race like the Dragonborn, you'll see a menu of options for that race. Probably a basic "class only" pack, a "class starter" pac, and a "premium here's a lot of cool stuff" pack. But only time will tell on that.
But to call them clueless or to say they don't care about their customers, when they absolutely took their feedback to heart is pretty baseless.
This is the first "ground up" F2P game they've run. They still have subscription options to STO and CO, and those games were built as being sub-based, but failed to attract the number of subscribers necessary. Hence they are still learning on how to monetize a pure F2P game.
And talking about "an entire industry's history and experiences to learn from"...that's what? Like four yeasr? Maybe 5? F2P hasn't been around very long, as far as the "industry goes" and there are very few, if any other AAA mainstream MMO's that started F2P, not transitioned to F2P, which is a very different beast.
F2P use to be the fallback plan when subscription games failed. Almost all of the "F2P" games out there are re-launches of failed sub games. Neverwinter is one of the first to actually attack that space from the ground up, not be forced there by circumstance.
Cryptic haven't got it right yet IMO but they're not exactly unique in that regard.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
The whole F3P thing is still a grand experiment in the industry on the west side of the pond from Asia. This is Cryptic's first genuine F2P like was quoted above - so far they've done pretty well, but it's still a big experiment and uncharted waters for them.
Obviously on a business sense the goal is to price items optimally for maximum profit, meaning at what price point will you have the maximum buyers at the maximum price? Just having more buyers does not money-make. It has to be the right number of buyers at the right price. If they sold Mounds for $2 everyone would buy them, then no one would (because everyone already has one) - and they still would not make as much money as they do now selling the for $15+
Here's another problem: how do you decide the price of something that's never been sold before (read: Dragonborn Pack)? Pricing new mounts and companions is easy because those prices are already established. But for something entirely new?
Problem: if the price is too low, too many people will buy it and there is no way they can ever justify raising the price. Price it too high and there's no way to reduce the price without seriously enraging the initial buyers (all of them).
Answer: Proffer a "discount sale" price to test the waters. See how sales go. If it goes gang busters, then raise the price o what you wanted originally. If the sales are mediocre, then lock the price in at the sale price (NO ONE loses anything, all buyers got what they paid for at the advertised price). If those sales slack-off, well refer to the problems mentioned above; answer: release a new "lesser" bundle for a lower price.
This is really drop-dead simple Business 101, folks. Get a clue.
1. They are giving players what they want. Maybe not what a single person wants. But many scoffed at the $75 price and cried out for a Dragonborn standalone. And here they are getting it. Not a bad thing.
2. Or perhaps it was a number of sales issue. They released the original pack on sale. What if it didn't sell like they thought it would at the reduced price. So they made the lower price permanent. No point in selling it at full price if they couldn't get the number of sales they wanted at a lower price point. Its still to early to slash the price (not without offending those that just bought it). So to get the numbers up they instead they offer a standalone 'bundle' at a third the cost. Again, nothing nefarious here. Just them trying to do business.
People seem to think Cryptic/PWE is out to get them or something. They are out to make money. Which they can't do if their customers are mad at them. They aren't intentionally trying to mess you over. Just stuff happens.
I mean I was slightly irked myself back in beta, when I bought the Howler mount. Then a week later they not only put it on sale, but reduced the regular price of it as well. Stuff happens. It was just bad timing. I mean you can always find something to blame the company for. I could blame them that my characters hair is still messed up on that Howler I bought. But some things you just have to let go of. Gotta get over it and move on.
LOL. I don't really need to say anything else than that.
In that case, the original price advertised was actually accurate considering it actually sold for that. This had nothing to do with bad timing.