So, your defense is that we should have been smart enough to know we were being lied to? Well, if it worked for Lehman Bros. and LIBOR....
I didn't think it was possible for Cryptic to mess this up any more than they already had, but they managed it. First the "discount" vanished and the pack was moved from the cash-only options to the Zen store. Now the "hook" has been separated out. Congratulations, you managed to torque off some of your best customers.
You know those "whales" you F2P sellers are hunting? Cryptic may have just harpooned all of theirs into extinction.
Oh, and...
Before declaring victory you may want to wait and see what happens the next time they try to offer anything like the Dragonborn Legends pack. Actually they are offering something like it over in STO and more than a few people have said they won't touch it with someone else's hands because of what happened here. I don't think the new development will improve that situation.
Way to miss the point there. I also don't see how banking failures even compare to marketing decisions for much smaller-scale items. Apples to watermelons, but I digress.
The DB pack, as originally offered, was a premium. It was basically "be one of the first to have the DB race", and the race/token was offered as part of a larger pack with other items because--yes, as much as people hate to hear this--Cryptic is a business. They're in it to make money.
Then the marketing team likely took a look at the numbers and decided that their original price point wasn't going to fly because, you know, not as many were moving as they would have liked. So they made the $75 price point the permanent price.
People squawked, "why can't you just offer us the race as a standalone purchase?" The answer: "There are no plans at this time." Emphasis on "at this time." In the business world, as plans can and do change, you don't give a hard and fast answer when you have any reason to believe that marketing may decide to change that on a dime.
So, Cryptic took another look at the numbers and the feedback and said "well, it's not really going all that well with the pack, and the feedback given shows that the people really want just the race anyway, so we'll offer this."
And yet, people are still up in arms. I'll again reiterate an earlier point: It's like buying a box of cereal for the decoder ring inside, and then complaining because at a future date the company decided to sell just the decoder rings.
In the end, which was more important to the company? Holding onto "exclusivity", or listening to the feedback of their playerbase in tandem with the numbers they got from their marketing team?
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There is no pleasing everyone... We complain about the high price of the dragonborn pack and so the devs devise a cheaper version and now we complain about it? I might actually buy a dragonborn race option when I gather enough zen. I appreciate the attempto sate the crowds.
Forgive me if I sound as if I'm ranting, but come on people...
There is no pleasing everyone... We complain about the high price of the dragonborn pack and so the devs devise a cheaper version and now we complain about it? I might actually buy a dragonborn race option when I gather enough zen. I appreciate the attempto sate the crowds.
Forgive me if I sound as if I'm ranting, but come on people...
"You can please some people all of the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
Fairly apropos quote.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
So i'm assuming everyone upset by this are currently protesting Apple for making their existing phones less valuable by selling something they already had, just packaged differently.
Lots of people do criticise that :P. They do have to bring something out to keep up with the competition though. Lucikily for them, they have good marketing and are recognised by their supporters as being a premium product by their followers. The ones that criticise that don't care anyway, they just go for the competition. Over here, they don't have that premium quality so the ones who blindly support (couldn't think of a better way to say it) are far limited in numbers, though I do still see some people hold that value when really a lot of stuff can be critisied to give us all a better product. Personally I think the big issue here is lesser to do with the fact they released a new pack, and more to the way they marketed it in a way that people bought into expectations from the way it was marketed that didn't hold true. It's often the case when new hardware or addons came out that longer than a month goes by before <x> is refreshed/released as to not reduce the support from the ones who care most about the product.
Whenever you preorder a product there are a lot of times where you get rewarded. Whether it's extra content, some figurines or whatever extra stuff. In this case we were meant to get 25% off. Instead we didn't really get anything and the ones who waited got rewarded instead despite suggested otherwise. This whole event does mean that I can never trust marketing from Perfect World again though. They broke my trust :c
I had a feeling there'd be a cheaper option that'd become available eventually for being a dragonborn. I am still fully satisfied with my purchase of the dragonborn pack though because it comes with so many extra goodies.
I think its awesome that the race will now be available for 2500 zen. This means more people can experience the awesome that it is to run around as a scaled one. ^_^
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All the people complaining they paid full price for a product, and then it was offered for cheaper later have a good point. I've never once bought clothes, or a tv, or tools, or games, and find they're cheaper at a later date! It's crazy. You'd think companies would charge the same thing when a product is in full demand, as they would later when the demand lowers...
/sarcasm
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Way to miss the point there. I also don't see how banking failures even compare to marketing decisions for much smaller-scale items. Apples to watermelons, but I digress.
Both organizations essentially used the same argument you've used here. When they got pinched Lehman's defense was "our clients should have been smart enough to realize we were scamming them". Similarly, when caught fixing rates LIBOR's attorneys argued "our clients never should have believed there was any competition for these rates", despite the fact that LIBOR existed because of said supposed competition.
The DB pack, as originally offered, was a premium. It was basically "be one of the first to have the DB race", and the race/token was offered as part of a larger pack with other items because--yes, as much as people hate to hear this--Cryptic is a business. They're in it to make money.
And I have no problem with them making money. I've spent money on the game as long as I've been playing it. How they are making money is another matter.
Then the marketing team likely took a look at the numbers and decided that their original price point wasn't going to fly because, you know, not as many were moving as they would have liked. So they made the $75 price point the permanent price.
Which was offense #1. The original offer was now false pretenses.
People squawked, "why can't you just offer us the race as a standalone purchase?" The answer: "There are no plans at this time." Emphasis on "at this time."
Actually the answer I remember seeing in interviews was more along the lines of "we're not doing that because Dragonborn wouldn't be special if everyone had them". This isn't a big deal to me, as I'll explain later, but it's not insignificant.
In the business world, as plans can and do change, you don't give a hard and fast answer when you have any reason to believe that marketing may decide to change that on a dime.
In the business world you keep your word if you're smart because your credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away it doesn't come back.
So, Cryptic took another look at the numbers and the feedback and said "well, it's not really going all that well with the pack, and the feedback given shows that the people really want just the race anyway, so we'll offer this."
And thereby violating the exclusivity offered with the DL pack. Your argument is that we should have realized that offer was meaningless anyway. My reply is to ask if there are any other words that don't mean what they mean in common discourse when used by Cryptic marketing, like "is" or "the".
And yet, people are still up in arms. I'll again reiterate an earlier point: It's like buying a box of cereal for the decoder ring inside, and then complaining because at a future date the company decided to sell just the decoder rings.
I didn't buy the pack for the decoder ring...or exclusive access to Dragonborn. Actually, if the original thread on the pack hasn't been purged (what with all the Soviet Revisionism surrounding this thing) you'd see that I was one of the ones who called the company out on the deal initially because of the lack of value in the pack. This was when the artifact was rank 1 and the bag one-per-account (I believe the artifact was as well but I'm not sure and thanks to the aforementioned revisionism can't really check). I argued from the start that the subjective value of the DL pack was meaningless. I argued that any argument regarding its value had to be based on an objective assessment of the pack's value based on comparing its contents to items available in the Zen store and in-game, and that said assessment left the pack's value wanting. Evidently enough people agreed with me to cause the company to re-evaluate and improve the deal.
That's when I bought in -- when the measurable value of what was offered justified the price I was being asked to pay. Because that's when you buy something. Getting a level 60 artifact and a 30 slot bag on each of the six (soon to be seven) characters I had was worth the price (not to mention the extra value of getting them on any future characters). So I'm not arguing here that I was "cheated" out of anything, _per se_. Mind you, though, had the actual launch offer been the offer from the beginning I would have paid slightly less (thanks to bonus Zen for large purchases) and I would have had the option to defray the price with the thousands of Zen I already had. And, truth be told, had the new package been available at the same time I would have bought that instead. While I admit the DL pack was worth the price I would have taken the less expensive option to have saved some money. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as a later respondent says:
In this case we were meant to get 25% off. Instead we didn't really get anything and the ones who waited got rewarded instead despite suggested otherwise. This whole event does mean that I can never trust marketing from Perfect World again though. They broke my trust :c
In the end, which was more important to the company? Holding onto "exclusivity", or listening to the feedback of their playerbase in tandem with the numbers they got from their marketing team?
What should have been more important was "holding onto" the good will of their customers. They should have taken their lumps, learned from the experience and going forward offered better deals on similar products in the future. Or, and I don't seriously expect any modern corporation to do anything like this as it involves putting ethics ahead of profit, lowered the price and compensated the pre-order purchasers accordingly. Instead Cryptic chose to tell the customers most willing to drop a significant chunk of change to pre-order a virtual product that they'd been had. Well, that's certainly their prerogative, but, "bust a deal, face the Wheel". Actions have consequences. Cryptic has cashed out at least some of their customer base's trust.
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
All the people complaining they paid full price for a product, and then it was offered for cheaper later have a good point. I've never once bought clothes, or a tv, or tools, or games, and find they're cheaper at a later date! It's crazy. You'd think companies would charge the same thing when a product is in full demand, as they would later when the demand lowers...
/sarcasm
You realise the difference being that in this case they advertised the full price value that never held true? And you do realise that if something is advertised as a limited time offer, people will buy it solely for that reason? If that offer didn't exist (ie there wasn't really a sale) do you think companies should be allowed to make more money from without some form of compensation to the early backers who were promised a limited time deal.
When you have something on sale from your example, you're actually discounting it from the higher price that you actually sold it for such as for clearing stock.
I understand that people are frustrated, however, do be aware that making legal insinuations of any sort are prohibited under rule 3.08. This includes but is not limited to accusations of false advertising, fraud, or any other perceived violation of relevant law, regardless of jurisdiction. If you feel you have a case for any legal action whatsoever please contact your attorney or solicitor for advice on how to proceed and refrain from posting such threats or accusations on the forum. Thank you for your cooperation and understanding.
Do not respond to or reply to this notice, but direct any concerns through the PM system.
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petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited September 2014
Let me start by saying it is awesome that they are offering the pack and the race for zen now. It will give lots of people a chance to access the content and items, which to me is never really a bad thing. I think it is silly buying it just to be one of the few with a dragonborn and the items after they updated them were a pretty solid value.
With all that in mind I was one of the people that pre-ordered it for $75 USD based on the marketing that like all packs that came before it you would only be able to buy it with cash. Forget the hell fire and brimstone that is talking about getting baited by the "Buy now save $25" issue. Just take that whole change of prices as a lesson on how some companies handle business and learn from it...
My gripe comes down to people falsely claiming 7,500 is equal to my $75 USD. I have been playing since pretty much day 1 with multiple well geared level 60 character grinding AD for ages. Keeping this in mind I was able to easily get the AD to convert into Zen and would of been more than happy to use that on the pack vs my credit card. I have supported the game by purchasing zen in the past, but I was really on the fence about the pack and many other issues with the game in general. I had the resources to generate as much AD/Zen as I could spend in a reasonable amount of time between salvaging, leadership and the auction house. I feel cheated we were not told this would be the pack that breaks the mold and would go into the zen store.
For the TLDR crowd:
Thumbs up for being able to pay zen for the pack/race. But, I like others feel jilted because it was sold as we would never be able to purchase any part of the pack for zen just like all the other packs before it. Lastly, 7,500 zen DOES NOT equal $75USD because thanks to F2P People like myself could easily of had converted enough AD to Zen and bought it had we known it was an option.
I think that people on these forums (and any game forums, including the game I came from) will find ANYTHING to complain about instead of focusing on the good aspects of what is offered. I think its great that Cryptic is offering this product. More people will be able to get to play the dragonborn, which is a fantastic race and they look awesome. I love being a dragonborn in game.
Why oh why do people only buy things "because it was on sale?" It is incredibly stupid to buy something you don't want just because the price is reduced, so I don't understand how anyone can get off complaining about the permanent price drop. That was a good thing.
There were a lot of people, including me, who said that a race unlock alone for less would be awesome and would benefit the game. They release this and now people yet again complain. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Yes, I spent $75 on my pack, and I still feel justified because of the bonus goodies. Again, if this was not a good value to you then you should not have bought it. Plain and simple. If you buy something you show support for that product/ company. If you do not buy something you show you dislike it or are not interested.
It really is that black and white. I don't feel any of the complaints in this thread are justified. I am pretty open minded too. I can see other's points of view within reason. Like I said, I spent $75 on this pack because I wanted the extra stuff that came with the race in addition to the race. The bag, artifact, and accessories and fashion items were totally worth it to me (I love showing off some scale in the ceremonial set).
Overall, Cryptic has done everything to listen to its player base and do what they wanted. I think they deserve credit here, not more complaining. I'm glad the forum community doesn't show a majority of the player base. Most people are just playing the game and don't even come here because they enjoy the game and have little or no complaints.
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truelokasterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1Arc User
Let me start by saying it is awesome that they are offering the pack and the race for zen now. It will give lots of people a chance to access the content and items, which to me is never really a bad thing. I think it is silly buying it just to be one of the few with a dragonborn and the items after they updated them were a pretty solid value.
With all that in mind I was one of the people that pre-ordered it for $75 USD based on the marketing that like all packs that came before it you would only be able to buy it with cash. Forget the hell fire and brimstone that is talking about getting baited by the "Buy now save $25" issue. Just take that whole change of prices as a lesson on how some companies handle business and learn from it...
My gripe comes down to people falsely claiming 7,500 is equal to my $75 USD. I have been playing since pretty much day 1 with multiple well geared level 60 character grinding AD for ages. Keeping this in mind I was able to easily get the AD to convert into Zen and would of been more than happy to use that on the pack vs my credit card. I have supported the game by purchasing zen in the past, but I was really on the fence about the pack and many other issues with the game in general. I had the resources to generate as much AD/Zen as I could spend in a reasonable amount of time between salvaging, leadership and the auction house. I feel cheated we were not told this would be the pack that breaks the mold and would go into the zen store.
For the TLDR crowd:
Thumbs up for being able to pay zen for the pack/race. But, I like others feel jilted because it was sold as we would never be able to purchase any part of the pack for zen just like all the other packs before it. Lastly, 7,500 zen DOES NOT equal $75USD because thanks to F2P People like myself could easily of had converted enough AD to Zen and bought it had we known it was an option.
I hear you bro. And agree completely. I'd be way more upset about the real money versus AD to ZEN than having a cheaper option for a bundle that contains the race and a race reroll. I really like they have different options for different player styles and AD/ZEN budgets and think that some people will simply complain about everything.
I got the 75 dollar pack and I really think it was an excellent investment. Being an althollic, with 15 level 60 characters, I really love to have a purple awesome artifact and a dragon hoard bag on for each of them.
To me, the more options, the merrier!
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petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Overall, Cryptic has done everything to listen to its player base and do what they wanted. I think they deserve credit here, not more complaining. I'm glad the forum community doesn't show a majority of the player base. Most people are just playing the game and don't even come here because they enjoy the game and have little or no complaints.
I agree with almost everything you have said, but can you honestly tell me if you had 7,500 zen chilling in your account freshly converted from AD you would still have paid real world cash for the pack? Even if it was said that it would be available for cash if you wanted it RIGHT NOW and then it would be in the zen store after so many months or so many sales were made. I would of been fine with that because the people that wanted it on launch would of bought it and the people that were on the fence like me and were only swayed by the "sale" would of waited.
I believe it is unfair to just wave a wand and say no one has valid complaints because I believe I have just pointed out a very real and reasonable one right there. Most players do not frequent the forum and I really wish more did, but to say most people ingame do not have complaints is pure fantasy and for another thread.
As always the real root of problem is the lack of official communication from the mountain top to the us lowly customers. We even see it with the Mods who try very hard to get us info when we post topics they take an interest in and even they have problems tapping into the official info pipeline. You see the signs everywhere that most of the official staff are very out of touch with the player base(siege event live stream) and yet everyone is still doing the best they can and I appreciate that, but I wish we had more official communication. Someone wisely said in this thread that your business reputation is not a boomerang and if you toss it away it will not return back to you. That sums up the problem 110% because I want to support this game I enjoy playing more, but I just want clear marketing I can trust before I do so. Currently that trust has been lost after this mess and as a paying customer feel that it is an extremely reasonable request to make before I hand over my credit card info again.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited September 2014
I ended up picking up the full pack - I like fashion sets, the account-wide artifact, the armor transmutes, but most of all, the account-wide bag. I have many alts, so for each new one I make, the full pack's value increases. Had they *not* made the bag account-wide, I probably would have just dragged my feet and just gotten the 2500 race unlock...
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Why oh why do people only buy things "because it was on sale?" It is incredibly stupid to buy something you don't want just because the price is reduced, so I don't understand how anyone can get off complaining about the permanent price drop. That was a good thing.
Tell that to the many women that buy clothes or shoes purely because they're on sale and the many gamers that buy steam games for the same reason even if they go completely unplayed :P.
Anyway my opinion is on the principle that if you defend such a thing, then you allow companies the potential to fake sales in order to make more which is clearly a bad thing.
Yeah it is good but if I knew this was coming I wouldn't of wasted 77 GBP on an item where 19 GBP would get me what I wanted......
That's true for those that only wanted the Dragonborn. Though I completely understand them selling the Dragonborn for cheaper as not everyone is going to buy an expensive pack. Its just to much money at once for some. So they are now selling a cheaper one. I think its the right thing to do, both for their customers and themselves. As for the timing and not telling us beforehand? It'd be nice, but a lot companies don't do that. (Yes, I know some do but most of the ones that I've dealt with do not.)
The thing is though that the bigger pack is completely worth the money. So while some will complain (someone always complains), I don't think we will see as many griping about it as would if the big pack was garbage. For me the bag alone was worth it. I put the AD up on the exchange to pick up the pack as soon as I found out that bag was account-wide. The other stuff was just icing on the cake. And its very nice icing too.
IMHO the most important thing about this topic is how people feel about what Cryptic/PWE did and didn't do. If early buyers feel bad enough about it they might not buy again. Whether this is good or bad anyone has to decide on their own.
I was a bit upset when I saw the original price of the pack. I knew I would never be able to get it. But then, they put it in the Zen market, and left it at the $75 price. I knew, if I worked at it, I could earn the diamonds to do it, even though the exchange had a backlog over 13 million. With time and effort, and a small amount of my limited funds, it paid off. My brother is currently in the process of the same thing. Even though he could get the current new race change pack right now, we both feel the other items are worth it, especially for account-wide unlocks on some of those items. Not everyone will see the same value in the full pack. Some are upset because they changed tactics, and offered cheaper versions, without the goodies, after larger amounts were spent. To me, I'm fine with it, and happy they did what they did. Even if I had saved and spent the full cash amount, I'd be fine with it. I have a number of alts, but even if I only had a few, the value is still there. It's just that everyones perspective is different. You can't please all of the people all of the time.
Is there anything cool about dragonborn other than having an extra +2 to any stat?
Anyone think that's worth $25?
It is probably the best GWF, GF and Healer race and among the best for the others too. Still 25% for just a one more race is a bit steep, when you can buy complete games with it.
Give us 4 or more power/item bar profiles so we can change powers and items with one click that are suited for the situation.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
You know what? Do this. If you're so terribly upset that you just can't go on with your life, contact customer service. If you didn't touch a single extra that came with the Dragonborn Pack, see if you can get a refund for your Dragonborn pack, and have it removed from your account. Then go buy the $25 option.
If it's tearing a hole in your heart, the least you could do is ask.
Unless of course you're already claimed and used the items in the pack, then you got what you paid for, which I think is the case with most everyone here, even the complainers.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
IMHO the most important thing about this topic is how people feel about what Cryptic/PWE did and didn't do. If early buyers feel bad enough about it they might not buy again. Whether this is good or bad anyone has to decide on their own.
I for sure know how I feel.
This is exactly how I think most civil people feel on this topic even if they never post on the forums. For people like myself with many alts the pack was pretty useful, but the way it was announced really tweaked folks the wrong way. I still think it is awesome people can buy the pieces they want for zen, so no one should be bitter they are not "special snowflakes" anymore. The only gripe is how it was handled from a business to customer standpoint.
With that said I hope they offer all of the older packs as zen items and I wonder why they have not done so already. I would buy the fey wild pack or the moon elf race if I could get it with zen. I have pretty much run out of things to spend zen on and it just collects dust in my account while my credit card is on lockdown after the last pack fiasco. However, if these packs and future items where clearly marketing and/or offered for zen I truly believe that would be a start at healing the rift Cryptic/PWE as created with their paying customers like myself. We like you guys and we want to support the game... just treat us fairly is all we are asking from the marketing team
You know what? Do this. If you're so terribly upset that you just can't go on with your life, contact customer service. If you didn't touch a single extra that came with the Dragonborn Pack, see if you can get a refund for your Dragonborn pack, and have it removed from your account. Then go buy the $25 option.
If it's tearing a hole in your heart, the least you could do is ask.
Unless of course you're already claimed and used the items in the pack, then you got what you paid for, which I think is the case with most everyone here, even the complainers.
That is not an option as per official channels. It would resolved a lot of the hurt feelings, but it seems they are unable to do it for technical reasons. Please do not try to dismiss people's valid complaints and feedback with some passive aggressive flamebait like this.
I am so glad that they made this new pack. I bought it in an instant and I plan on rerolling my character soon, and by soon I mean as soon as they give more customization options for Dragonborn characters (I already added a suggestion for this as its own thread). I mean seriously, where are all the cool looking tendrils dragonborn have in official D&D artwork? Where is all of the facepaint? Where is the option to give our dragonborns tails (yes, it is part of their lore that every so often a dragonborn will have a tail)?
C'mon Cryptic! Please give us more options!
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dheffernanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 216Arc User
Why oh why do people only buy things "because it was on sale?" It is incredibly stupid to buy something you don't want just because the price is reduced, so I don't understand how anyone can get off complaining about the permanent price drop. That was a good thing.
The pack was worth its price at $75. It would not have been at $100. We were told "act now or the price goes up", which was a factor in my decision to purchase. I'm sure that was true for others. Then not only did the price not go up but the pack was moved to the Zen store which means it actually went down. This means the pre-order purchasers got burned. Now, to rub salt in the wound, the most desirable part, the race unlock, has been made available in an even less expensive option. What do you think the temperature will be in Hell before I buy anything like the DL pack again?
If you buy something you show support for that product/ company. If you do not buy something you show you dislike it or are not interested.
No, if you buy something it means you believe that what was offered is worth the price asked to purchase it. Nothing less and nothing more. Companies are not charities or democracies; they do not need or receive "support".
@Venture-1@Venture from City of Heroes if you remember that far back. Yes, *that* Venture. Yes, I probably trashed your MA arc. For me it was Tuesday.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
Anyone who purchased a Dragonborn Legend pack at $75 knew exactly what they were getting and for exactly how much. And they made the choice to purchase. And for those who purchased the package, Cryptic did indeed delivery the digital goods as promised.
Chargebacks are there to protect customers in the event that the exchange of goods or services didn't happen, or not as promised. That's not the case here.
You realise the difference being that in this case they advertised the full price value that never held true? And you do realise that if something is advertised as a limited time offer, people will buy it solely for that reason? If that offer didn't exist (ie there wasn't really a sale) do you think companies should be allowed to make more money from without some form of compensation to the early backers who were promised a limited time deal.
When you have something on sale from your example, you're actually discounting it from the higher price that you actually sold it for such as for clearing stock.
The initial pack being on sale as a limited time offer, and then staying at that price isn't what this thread is about.
From the OP
Contradiction or ?
So,
Logged in today and would you look at this ? seems Cryptic has went back on themselves and after even more money.
Dragon born Race Reroll Transform Token 2500 Zen (One reroll token and full dragon unlock)
The item which was asked for an stated would not be given is now given ?
Would of preferred paying 2500 Zen than the Huge amount of money alot of us paid pre launch
The OP is mad that the dragonborn race went on sale as a solo item. Which is a ridiculous thing to complain about. If people couldn't contain themselves and bought the pack for just the race, that's their own problem. It's the same as if I waited for my TV to go on sale, and someone else just had to have it all full price. Their lack of financial planning isn't cryptics concern.
I just bought a new cell phone--brand new, first day it's available on the carrier--for $150 with a 2-year contract. In six months they will be giving that cell phone away for free to people who sign a 2-year contract. I'll have no right to be sullen or outraged: if Verizon gives me the phone I paid for, and it works, and so long as the monthly service that I pay for works, then they owe me nothing else.
Why do some of the people in this thread think that Cryptic/PWE owes them something?
The initial pack being on sale as a limited time offer, and then staying at that price isn't what this thread is about.
From the OP
The OP is mad that the dragonborn race went on sale as a solo item. Which is a ridiculous thing to complain about. If people couldn't contain themselves and bought the pack for just the race, that's their own problem. It's the same as if I waited for my TV to go on sale, and someone else just had to have it all full price. Their lack of financial planning isn't cryptics concern.
I see, I thought you were partly talking about my views that were brought up which affects my reasoning and is related to me .
While the exclusivity was one thing that got me, after all I could use plenty of existing ad/zen, that being coupled the non existent sale affected my trust. I would've got over not exclusive party had they gave me for instance 25% of the actual amount as zen.
If you read into the "exclusive" marketing then I think it's a point one can argue if that's why they bought into it. If you didn't read into that statement but didn't think they'd come out with anything, then that's different since you're making the choice to get it now instead of waiting and seeing what comes up rather than having that one word affecting your decision.
Moral of the story: When selling goods, be clear when marketing your product. Don't advertise it in a way that garners extra sales from misleading statements if you want to keep the trust of your most eager customers. Don't pretend it won't be released elsewhere if you want to open up the possibility to. After all people hardly expect a pack to be available for cash and then the zen store afterwards when it hasn't been done before. Also if you advertise an offer and decide the original is too much, you must offer the ones who bought into the offer some other form of compensation to keep them happy. It's something I personally find very court worthy, but not really something I want to actually go through. For me it's only $75, which is kind of a small amount for something petty for me, but it's something they should be imo subjected to.
It's pretty simple. Cryptic wants to find out who is willing to pay $75 for the Pack. They wait a bit and get as much money as they can. Then, they move onto those who will pay $25 for the race but not $75 for the Pack. It maximizes profit, and those in the 2nd boat can't complain.
Really, it's a part of marketing. While it's not ideal, people really should have seen it coming in the original announcement of the Pack, that a stand-alone race could come.
(Now, the whole "25% off thing still irks me, but that's a different discussion altogether.)
I just bought a new cell phone--brand new, first day it's available on the carrier--for $150 with a 2-year contract. In six months they will be giving that cell phone away for free to people who sign a 2-year contract. I'll have no right to be sullen or outraged: if Verizon gives me the phone I paid for, and it works, and so long as the monthly service that I pay for works, then they owe me nothing else.
Why do some of the people in this thread think that Cryptic/PWE owes them something?
^this
c'mon people, this is STANDARD PRACTICE in the corporate world. those who "gotta have it NOW" always pay more for the privilege.
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Way to miss the point there. I also don't see how banking failures even compare to marketing decisions for much smaller-scale items. Apples to watermelons, but I digress.
The DB pack, as originally offered, was a premium. It was basically "be one of the first to have the DB race", and the race/token was offered as part of a larger pack with other items because--yes, as much as people hate to hear this--Cryptic is a business. They're in it to make money.
Then the marketing team likely took a look at the numbers and decided that their original price point wasn't going to fly because, you know, not as many were moving as they would have liked. So they made the $75 price point the permanent price.
People squawked, "why can't you just offer us the race as a standalone purchase?" The answer: "There are no plans at this time." Emphasis on "at this time." In the business world, as plans can and do change, you don't give a hard and fast answer when you have any reason to believe that marketing may decide to change that on a dime.
So, Cryptic took another look at the numbers and the feedback and said "well, it's not really going all that well with the pack, and the feedback given shows that the people really want just the race anyway, so we'll offer this."
And yet, people are still up in arms. I'll again reiterate an earlier point: It's like buying a box of cereal for the decoder ring inside, and then complaining because at a future date the company decided to sell just the decoder rings.
In the end, which was more important to the company? Holding onto "exclusivity", or listening to the feedback of their playerbase in tandem with the numbers they got from their marketing team?
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Forgive me if I sound as if I'm ranting, but come on people...
"You can please some people all of the time, or all people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time."
Fairly apropos quote.
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Lots of people do criticise that :P. They do have to bring something out to keep up with the competition though. Lucikily for them, they have good marketing and are recognised by their supporters as being a premium product by their followers. The ones that criticise that don't care anyway, they just go for the competition. Over here, they don't have that premium quality so the ones who blindly support (couldn't think of a better way to say it) are far limited in numbers, though I do still see some people hold that value when really a lot of stuff can be critisied to give us all a better product. Personally I think the big issue here is lesser to do with the fact they released a new pack, and more to the way they marketed it in a way that people bought into expectations from the way it was marketed that didn't hold true. It's often the case when new hardware or addons came out that longer than a month goes by before <x> is refreshed/released as to not reduce the support from the ones who care most about the product.
Whenever you preorder a product there are a lot of times where you get rewarded. Whether it's extra content, some figurines or whatever extra stuff. In this case we were meant to get 25% off. Instead we didn't really get anything and the ones who waited got rewarded instead despite suggested otherwise. This whole event does mean that I can never trust marketing from Perfect World again though. They broke my trust :c
I think its awesome that the race will now be available for 2500 zen. This means more people can experience the awesome that it is to run around as a scaled one. ^_^
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/sarcasm
Both organizations essentially used the same argument you've used here. When they got pinched Lehman's defense was "our clients should have been smart enough to realize we were scamming them". Similarly, when caught fixing rates LIBOR's attorneys argued "our clients never should have believed there was any competition for these rates", despite the fact that LIBOR existed because of said supposed competition.
And I have no problem with them making money. I've spent money on the game as long as I've been playing it. How they are making money is another matter.
Which was offense #1. The original offer was now false pretenses.
Actually the answer I remember seeing in interviews was more along the lines of "we're not doing that because Dragonborn wouldn't be special if everyone had them". This isn't a big deal to me, as I'll explain later, but it's not insignificant.
In the business world you keep your word if you're smart because your credibility is not a boomerang. If you throw it away it doesn't come back.
And thereby violating the exclusivity offered with the DL pack. Your argument is that we should have realized that offer was meaningless anyway. My reply is to ask if there are any other words that don't mean what they mean in common discourse when used by Cryptic marketing, like "is" or "the".
I didn't buy the pack for the decoder ring...or exclusive access to Dragonborn. Actually, if the original thread on the pack hasn't been purged (what with all the Soviet Revisionism surrounding this thing) you'd see that I was one of the ones who called the company out on the deal initially because of the lack of value in the pack. This was when the artifact was rank 1 and the bag one-per-account (I believe the artifact was as well but I'm not sure and thanks to the aforementioned revisionism can't really check). I argued from the start that the subjective value of the DL pack was meaningless. I argued that any argument regarding its value had to be based on an objective assessment of the pack's value based on comparing its contents to items available in the Zen store and in-game, and that said assessment left the pack's value wanting. Evidently enough people agreed with me to cause the company to re-evaluate and improve the deal.
That's when I bought in -- when the measurable value of what was offered justified the price I was being asked to pay. Because that's when you buy something. Getting a level 60 artifact and a 30 slot bag on each of the six (soon to be seven) characters I had was worth the price (not to mention the extra value of getting them on any future characters). So I'm not arguing here that I was "cheated" out of anything, _per se_. Mind you, though, had the actual launch offer been the offer from the beginning I would have paid slightly less (thanks to bonus Zen for large purchases) and I would have had the option to defray the price with the thousands of Zen I already had. And, truth be told, had the new package been available at the same time I would have bought that instead. While I admit the DL pack was worth the price I would have taken the less expensive option to have saved some money. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth, as a later respondent says:
What should have been more important was "holding onto" the good will of their customers. They should have taken their lumps, learned from the experience and going forward offered better deals on similar products in the future. Or, and I don't seriously expect any modern corporation to do anything like this as it involves putting ethics ahead of profit, lowered the price and compensated the pre-order purchasers accordingly. Instead Cryptic chose to tell the customers most willing to drop a significant chunk of change to pre-order a virtual product that they'd been had. Well, that's certainly their prerogative, but, "bust a deal, face the Wheel". Actions have consequences. Cryptic has cashed out at least some of their customer base's trust.
You realise the difference being that in this case they advertised the full price value that never held true? And you do realise that if something is advertised as a limited time offer, people will buy it solely for that reason? If that offer didn't exist (ie there wasn't really a sale) do you think companies should be allowed to make more money from without some form of compensation to the early backers who were promised a limited time deal.
When you have something on sale from your example, you're actually discounting it from the higher price that you actually sold it for such as for clearing stock.
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With all that in mind I was one of the people that pre-ordered it for $75 USD based on the marketing that like all packs that came before it you would only be able to buy it with cash. Forget the hell fire and brimstone that is talking about getting baited by the "Buy now save $25" issue. Just take that whole change of prices as a lesson on how some companies handle business and learn from it...
My gripe comes down to people falsely claiming 7,500 is equal to my $75 USD. I have been playing since pretty much day 1 with multiple well geared level 60 character grinding AD for ages. Keeping this in mind I was able to easily get the AD to convert into Zen and would of been more than happy to use that on the pack vs my credit card. I have supported the game by purchasing zen in the past, but I was really on the fence about the pack and many other issues with the game in general. I had the resources to generate as much AD/Zen as I could spend in a reasonable amount of time between salvaging, leadership and the auction house. I feel cheated we were not told this would be the pack that breaks the mold and would go into the zen store.
For the TLDR crowd:
Thumbs up for being able to pay zen for the pack/race. But, I like others feel jilted because it was sold as we would never be able to purchase any part of the pack for zen just like all the other packs before it. Lastly, 7,500 zen DOES NOT equal $75USD because thanks to F2P People like myself could easily of had converted enough AD to Zen and bought it had we known it was an option.
Why oh why do people only buy things "because it was on sale?" It is incredibly stupid to buy something you don't want just because the price is reduced, so I don't understand how anyone can get off complaining about the permanent price drop. That was a good thing.
There were a lot of people, including me, who said that a race unlock alone for less would be awesome and would benefit the game. They release this and now people yet again complain. THIS IS A GOOD THING! Yes, I spent $75 on my pack, and I still feel justified because of the bonus goodies. Again, if this was not a good value to you then you should not have bought it. Plain and simple. If you buy something you show support for that product/ company. If you do not buy something you show you dislike it or are not interested.
It really is that black and white. I don't feel any of the complaints in this thread are justified. I am pretty open minded too. I can see other's points of view within reason. Like I said, I spent $75 on this pack because I wanted the extra stuff that came with the race in addition to the race. The bag, artifact, and accessories and fashion items were totally worth it to me (I love showing off some scale in the ceremonial set).
Overall, Cryptic has done everything to listen to its player base and do what they wanted. I think they deserve credit here, not more complaining. I'm glad the forum community doesn't show a majority of the player base. Most people are just playing the game and don't even come here because they enjoy the game and have little or no complaints.
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I hear you bro. And agree completely. I'd be way more upset about the real money versus AD to ZEN than having a cheaper option for a bundle that contains the race and a race reroll. I really like they have different options for different player styles and AD/ZEN budgets and think that some people will simply complain about everything.
I got the 75 dollar pack and I really think it was an excellent investment. Being an althollic, with 15 level 60 characters, I really love to have a purple awesome artifact and a dragon hoard bag on for each of them.
To me, the more options, the merrier!
I agree with almost everything you have said, but can you honestly tell me if you had 7,500 zen chilling in your account freshly converted from AD you would still have paid real world cash for the pack? Even if it was said that it would be available for cash if you wanted it RIGHT NOW and then it would be in the zen store after so many months or so many sales were made. I would of been fine with that because the people that wanted it on launch would of bought it and the people that were on the fence like me and were only swayed by the "sale" would of waited.
I believe it is unfair to just wave a wand and say no one has valid complaints because I believe I have just pointed out a very real and reasonable one right there. Most players do not frequent the forum and I really wish more did, but to say most people ingame do not have complaints is pure fantasy and for another thread.
As always the real root of problem is the lack of official communication from the mountain top to the us lowly customers. We even see it with the Mods who try very hard to get us info when we post topics they take an interest in and even they have problems tapping into the official info pipeline. You see the signs everywhere that most of the official staff are very out of touch with the player base(siege event live stream) and yet everyone is still doing the best they can and I appreciate that, but I wish we had more official communication. Someone wisely said in this thread that your business reputation is not a boomerang and if you toss it away it will not return back to you. That sums up the problem 110% because I want to support this game I enjoy playing more, but I just want clear marketing I can trust before I do so. Currently that trust has been lost after this mess and as a paying customer feel that it is an extremely reasonable request to make before I hand over my credit card info again.
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Tell that to the many women that buy clothes or shoes purely because they're on sale and the many gamers that buy steam games for the same reason even if they go completely unplayed :P.
Anyway my opinion is on the principle that if you defend such a thing, then you allow companies the potential to fake sales in order to make more which is clearly a bad thing.
That's true for those that only wanted the Dragonborn. Though I completely understand them selling the Dragonborn for cheaper as not everyone is going to buy an expensive pack. Its just to much money at once for some. So they are now selling a cheaper one. I think its the right thing to do, both for their customers and themselves. As for the timing and not telling us beforehand? It'd be nice, but a lot companies don't do that. (Yes, I know some do but most of the ones that I've dealt with do not.)
The thing is though that the bigger pack is completely worth the money. So while some will complain (someone always complains), I don't think we will see as many griping about it as would if the big pack was garbage. For me the bag alone was worth it. I put the AD up on the exchange to pick up the pack as soon as I found out that bag was account-wide. The other stuff was just icing on the cake. And its very nice icing too.
I for sure know how I feel.
It is probably the best GWF, GF and Healer race and among the best for the others too. Still 25% for just a one more race is a bit steep, when you can buy complete games with it.
If it's tearing a hole in your heart, the least you could do is ask.
Unless of course you're already claimed and used the items in the pack, then you got what you paid for, which I think is the case with most everyone here, even the complainers.
This is exactly how I think most civil people feel on this topic even if they never post on the forums. For people like myself with many alts the pack was pretty useful, but the way it was announced really tweaked folks the wrong way. I still think it is awesome people can buy the pieces they want for zen, so no one should be bitter they are not "special snowflakes" anymore. The only gripe is how it was handled from a business to customer standpoint.
With that said I hope they offer all of the older packs as zen items and I wonder why they have not done so already. I would buy the fey wild pack or the moon elf race if I could get it with zen. I have pretty much run out of things to spend zen on and it just collects dust in my account while my credit card is on lockdown after the last pack fiasco. However, if these packs and future items where clearly marketing and/or offered for zen I truly believe that would be a start at healing the rift Cryptic/PWE as created with their paying customers like myself. We like you guys and we want to support the game... just treat us fairly is all we are asking from the marketing team
That is not an option as per official channels. It would resolved a lot of the hurt feelings, but it seems they are unable to do it for technical reasons. Please do not try to dismiss people's valid complaints and feedback with some passive aggressive flamebait like this.
C'mon Cryptic! Please give us more options!
The pack was worth its price at $75. It would not have been at $100. We were told "act now or the price goes up", which was a factor in my decision to purchase. I'm sure that was true for others. Then not only did the price not go up but the pack was moved to the Zen store which means it actually went down. This means the pre-order purchasers got burned. Now, to rub salt in the wound, the most desirable part, the race unlock, has been made available in an even less expensive option. What do you think the temperature will be in Hell before I buy anything like the DL pack again?
No, if you buy something it means you believe that what was offered is worth the price asked to purchase it. Nothing less and nothing more. Companies are not charities or democracies; they do not need or receive "support".
Chargebacks are there to protect customers in the event that the exchange of goods or services didn't happen, or not as promised. That's not the case here.
No. The short version of the story is: Don't spend money on something you don't actually want at the price and terms being offered.
The initial pack being on sale as a limited time offer, and then staying at that price isn't what this thread is about.
From the OP
The OP is mad that the dragonborn race went on sale as a solo item. Which is a ridiculous thing to complain about. If people couldn't contain themselves and bought the pack for just the race, that's their own problem. It's the same as if I waited for my TV to go on sale, and someone else just had to have it all full price. Their lack of financial planning isn't cryptics concern.
Why do some of the people in this thread think that Cryptic/PWE owes them something?
I see, I thought you were partly talking about my views that were brought up which affects my reasoning and is related to me
While the exclusivity was one thing that got me, after all I could use plenty of existing ad/zen, that being coupled the non existent sale affected my trust. I would've got over not exclusive party had they gave me for instance 25% of the actual amount as zen.
If you read into the "exclusive" marketing then I think it's a point one can argue if that's why they bought into it. If you didn't read into that statement but didn't think they'd come out with anything, then that's different since you're making the choice to get it now instead of waiting and seeing what comes up rather than having that one word affecting your decision.
Moral of the story: When selling goods, be clear when marketing your product. Don't advertise it in a way that garners extra sales from misleading statements if you want to keep the trust of your most eager customers. Don't pretend it won't be released elsewhere if you want to open up the possibility to. After all people hardly expect a pack to be available for cash and then the zen store afterwards when it hasn't been done before. Also if you advertise an offer and decide the original is too much, you must offer the ones who bought into the offer some other form of compensation to keep them happy. It's something I personally find very court worthy, but not really something I want to actually go through. For me it's only $75, which is kind of a small amount for something petty for me, but it's something they should be imo subjected to.
Really, it's a part of marketing. While it's not ideal, people really should have seen it coming in the original announcement of the Pack, that a stand-alone race could come.
(Now, the whole "25% off thing still irks me, but that's a different discussion altogether.)
^this
c'mon people, this is STANDARD PRACTICE in the corporate world. those who "gotta have it NOW" always pay more for the privilege.