TR's are not useless in pve and I am getting sick and tired of everyone saying so and I will prove to you that you are wrong. Smoke bomb debuff's large mobs that are clustered and I can hold some aggro this slows them for around 4 to 5 seconds imo sb is kind op atm and I love it lol, also a TR's job is to protect any casters from getting overwhelmed at least that's what I do in my guild and everyone seems to appreciate this and are happy with my performence. I am not done yet>>>>> also I can debuff the some of the mob with blitz, (another slow) and also debuff the boss with something that's lowers its defense 20%, so before you go shooting off your mouth maybe do some homework Execute Guild Leader of Order of The Assassin's
In PvP, even though there's no 1v1 balance, there aren't that many issues. Sure some classes are stronger than other classes, but you could argue that a player of class X can beat a player of class Y and vice versa.
In PvE however CW's and GWF's are the only "core" classes, GF's HR's and SW's are sometimes useful, and DC's and TR's are completely useless (at least DC's are helpful in some boss fights, but TR's really don't do anything)
I just noticed that this game is becoming the new WoW... all the stuff is done via passive/auto procs/etc instead of pure skill as it was on previous mods.
You mean HRs and GWFs having pure skill in module 3? Yeah pure skill......
TR's are not useless in pve and I am getting sick and tired of everyone saying so and I will prove to you that you are wrong. Smoke bomb debuff's large mobs that are clustered and I can hold some aggro this slows them for around 4 to 5 seconds imo sb is kind op atm and I love it lol, also a TR's job is to protect any casters from getting overwhelmed at least that's what I do in my guild and everyone seems to appreciate this and are happy with my performence. I am not done yet>>>>> also I can debuff the some of the mob with blitz, (another slow) and also debuff the boss with something that's lowers its defense 20%, so before you go shooting off your mouth maybe do some homework Execute Guild Leader of Order of The Assassin's
Smoke Bomb is a good utility skill, it's good to have, but isn't big enough for TRs to have a "controlling" role. Say you run a T2 dungeon, and instead of 3 CW's you run with 3 TR's. Can the TR's pop enough smoke bombs to be as efficient as Control Wizards? No.
Then you mention Blitz. Yes, it's slows, not bad. But Blitz will work only in specific circumstances (Enemies need to be set in the right position, must be in stealth, etc), and also a Slow effect isn't as good as a daze/stun/freeze other effect that makes the monster not fight you back.
Wicked Reminder is good, but is only useful on boss fights that last more than a minute, which is maybe 1-3 bosses per dungeon. Other than that, it does nothing. Wicked Reminder is not the difference between a boss going down or not going down. Wicked Reminder is the difference between if the boss takes 5 minutes to complete or 7 minutes to complete. Wicked Reminder has very limited uses in most dungeons because most dungeons have low defense/low hp opponents in big amounts.
So I explained why the skills you use are nice, but aren't essential to a party.
Now you also mentioned your role is making sure casters don't get in trouble. Ok, sounds reasonable, TRs can do that. But... is it the only class that can do it? In fact, does it even do it well? Let's think about other classes that can probably defend casters better than TRs...
1. Guardian Fighter. Because when the tank takes all the aggro, casters aren't in trouble.
2. Devoted Cleric. Because constant healing or buff/debuff abilities all over the dungeon does better than a good timed smoke bomb...
3. Another Control Wizard to defend the Control Wizards... Pretty trivial, right? Not only is he a better controller than you, but his AoE damage beats anything you can offer
Now you could argue that Warlocks are better too, because they have higher single target damage than TR, and from range, so they don't really need to chase the casters around the battle, and some builds can help with healing... And you could argue that a GWF could be better because he has better AoE than the TR and can add some tanking, and you could argue that the HR, that greatly outdamages the TR with equal gear would contribute to the party much more...
The point is, TRs aren't essential for dungeons, Just make an experiment with your guild, while doing a dungeon run log off and see if your casters manage to survive, or have them invite someone else and see if they still complete the dungeon at the same rate.
If that is the case then problem if fixed with gf's not cw and hr
Exactly! That only would prevent GFs from abusing these glyphs. But HRs and CWs profit even more from them in single target dmg. It needs to be nerfed for all classes not only GFs.
Exactly! That only would prevent GFs from abusing these glyphs. But HRs and CWs profit even more from them in single target dmg. It needs to be nerfed for all classes not only GFs.
Yes the glyphs nerfed would be great and gf kv should not grant ap from allies or gf players will be able to keep up daily's like crazy. It's mainly bad because glyphs are in the game but perma daily is still too much.
About glyphs...
I was in page 22.Glyphs come out ,fellow Gfs abusing them with KV/SoS/Gaurded assault combo.
Dawn to page 86
Ok then....got angry bought one greater green and one greater blue.
Went to pvp.
latest scores:17-1 ,16-0,21-4.At the last match a faced perfect vorpal GWF who try to fight me bravely head on.Killed by just attacking me in 4-5 secs.
At that point i stopped pvping.
Cause any Glyph toon it is guaranteed to kill any non,whatever the conditions and the rotations.
PVP WITH GLYPHS IS JUST PLAIN BROKEN.
And a comparison with greater BI enchantements:
Take 18 hours to make.require BI .Are only activated for 8 secs.
Glyph nonsense enchantements.
Are bloddy cheap in ah.(200ad the lessers!! lol) .Do not require anything.Are activated for 20 secs(!!!) every 60 secs.
And can do 800 unmitigated damage minimum.
Glyps are op as hell.
Nerf them before they destroy pvp completely.
Smoke Bomb is a good utility skill, it's good to have, but isn't big enough for TRs to have a "controlling" role. Say you run a T2 dungeon, and instead of 3 CW's you run with 3 TR's. Can the TR's pop enough smoke bombs to be as efficient as Control Wizards? No.
depends. for most boss fights, smoke bomb is generally unnecessary. while i was doing pirate king on my temptation warlock, we had a team with a wizard and failed. the wizard left afterwards and i asked the rogue to help the rest of us out with mobs by using smoke bomb. we won that time.
when i run the epic dragon skirmish with guardians/wizards/clerics and we get the barbarian ambush, everyone else tends to die long b4 i do and i am in melee-range of all those hard-hitting aoe spams. gf pretty much dies in a few constant barrages depending on how tanky he is and a single wizard is generally incapable of freezing everything so there isn't much i notice from them. i can, however, occasionally prevent a single death by timing my frost enchant, smoke bomb, dazing strike, and whirlwind of blades (pretty much an aoe stun with frost) properly to protect the rest of the team.
generally, smoke bomb is among the strongest aoe cc's for pve and the only restriction is everything being in melee range. if there is 3 rogues to replace 3 wizards then that is near constant uptime on dazes which can make some dungeons easier at the price of lacking aoe dps.
wizard's do have powerful dps and cc, but requires 2-3 wizards to really make a team difference. i have noticed that the aoe dps that 3 wizards do is like a constant tyrannical threat since my warlock can barely get enough elites to have the fight last longer than the duration of tyrannical with 3 of those nukes walking around >.>
The point is, TRs aren't essential for dungeons, Just make an experiment with your guild, while doing a dungeon run log off and see if your casters manage to survive, or have them invite someone else and see if they still complete the dungeon at the same rate.
they can be helpful if you are not running a 3+ wizard group. they definitely won't speed up the dungeon more than another wizard/warlock or can absorb damage like gf's, but that's about it. they can simply provide survivability that other classes can't give outside of stacking wizards.
although, nobody mentions a rogue's +5% critical buff as a speed boost for dungeons though.
Quit talking about PvE rogues, make a new thread so we can keep this one on topic yeah?
PvP is suffering more than ever due to these glyphs. It often takes 20 minutes in the queue to get a match going and I suspect that's simply because it takes that long to get even 10 people who are interested in playing. The gear creep in this game is bad enough without introducing these glyphs at all, and the few people who want to log in and pvp can't because they have to go grind to keep up with the Jones's.
All of my toons are PvP spec and geared. I've never even ran a dungeon in this game at lvl 60. I signed on for fun PvP, and it used to be. It sometimes still is when we get a decent matchup, but that's getting harder and harder to achieve. How can a matchup system even work when there are too few players to select from?
My vote is to remove glyphs from PvP entirely.
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nalikkMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This game should not be balanced around pvp. Dungeons and Dragons is a PvE game and this MMO seems to support PvE first. Coming from games that have sacrificed PvE in the name of PvP balance I am hoping that things will not change since they are fine in PvE.
This statement is getting very old. PvP exists in NW, get over it.
The glyphs need a nerf, make them not function in PvP. As it stands now a GF is doing almost as much, if not more, damage than my CW by doing nothing but holding shield up and running KV.
Quit talking about PvE rogues, make a new thread so we can keep this one on topic yeah?
PvP is suffering more than ever due to these glyphs. It often takes 20 minutes in the queue to get a match going and I suspect that's simply because it takes that long to get even 10 people who are interested in playing. The gear creep in this game is bad enough without introducing these glyphs at all, and the few people who want to log in and pvp can't because they have to go grind to keep up with the Jones's.
All of my toons are PvP spec and geared. I've never even ran a dungeon in this game at lvl 60. I signed on for fun PvP, and it used to be. It sometimes still is when we get a decent matchup, but that's getting harder and harder to achieve. How can a matchup system even work when there are too few players to select from?
My vote is to remove glyphs from PvP entirely.
+1!
Many players have stopped queuing for pvp, including myself. Premades are not possible because of the troll potential of multiple GFs. And pugging is more imbalanced than ever.
Also important is the fact that glyphs no longer serve any purpose, as in AD sink. There used to be a time with a Greater Blue/Red at 200k AD+ AH price, but now absolutely everybody can purchase them.
So all they do at the moment is making PvP suck and turning into a one-shot fest.
Tenacity was introduced for a purpose - to end the one-rotation deaths. This NEEDS to return. People have way too much DPS now.
Glyphs just made more players quick due "my broken class is being killed!"
Dude everyone can use glyphs. It's a question of honor and integrity not to. I refuse to slot them on my CW or HR. I know other players that do the same.
You can either play the "meta" card and use the latest lame cheez, slot your char with 100 Tenebrous and Reds, or have some morality left and plainly refuse to put them in.
It's not like we don't have them for free already from running LoL/SoT, or that we miss overload set pieces.
We just don't want to have anything to do with them.
This module already made my main classes, CW and HR, full of so much Point&Click&Proc cheez it made me stop PvPing. Adding the gyphs was the last drop.
Just so you know, this is a battle we went through before, when we fought to get the Tenebrous enchants nerfed. Took many weeks until they were nerfed to the ground and fell into desuetude... until now.
Free procs for lots of damage? No, thank you! This is an Action game. You should LAND your TARGETED attacks.
Good Examples:
- Frontline Surge
- Shard of the Endless Avalanche
Bad Examples:
- all "homing" attacks with short animations, such as Boar Charge, Disruptive
- Icy Rays/WoB/SE type of theoretically unavoidable <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
At this time, GWF FLS/Takedown/IBS is the only semi-good, action-like rotation in the game, although FLS is near instantaneous, which isn't really OK either.
Conclusion is we need to move away from guaranteed attacks and procs and things that avoid dodges and DR such as Piercing Blade/Whirlwind of Blades/Shocking Execution.
We need to have rotations that take skill to land and can be avoided through skill as well.
Not all players have bis or drac set to slot the glyphs on the overloads slots... in fact, even you sais so: most of players using glyphs are the top players on PvP Guilds.
Well, if some players from some classes would have some "morality", they should not use Stormspell + RoF + Orb with CW-class. Piercing blades + DoT with HR-class. Reflect build with GF-class... etc... and we are talking about something long before the dicovering of new glyphs. ;-)
And that is the reason a lot of players just quit (not quick, sorry, i just noticed the misspelling) from PvP: the imbalance this mod has is as big as AN ABYSS, even without glyphs used.
But now, Tenebrous are almost useless, they should buff them a bit (i dont really know how to buff it unless they rise again the HP damage and reduce the ICS to 15 secs but only slot 3 of them)
Agree with 2 exceptions: Frontline is not "that" fast, more even with the "dodgers" bug which allow CW, TR and DC classes to dodge these moves during the start of the "on hit" animation.
I dodged S.E. a lot of times and a i got it dodged by other classes too. Also, i am pretty sure that WoB can be dodge-able too...
Yup, most of the cheezers are shameless "pros" from PvP guilds. That's pretty much the same (type) of people that used tenes back in the day and thought they were skilled. Tenes are not that useless, and they should never be buffed, because their power grows with HP, and people have 40-60K HP+ in PvP now, compared to 30K when Tenes ruled. Any proc mechanic requiring no skill to land should do small damage. The Draconic gloves/head are cheap to get and many use them as a means of cheezing until they get BI.
You cannot dodge SE, you can out range it. Same is true for Icy Rays for example, if I mark someone, and they somehow go out of range as I push Icy Rays second time, IR will go on full cooldown. I think you can dodge WoB, but only as a coincidence, or with a prolonged "dodge" such as SW/GWF's. It still ignores DR so yeah... fix that part at least.
Frontline is near instantaneous. It's a good skill though, because you need to target it and you might miss. This puts it in the "great design" category, in contrast to things such as unavoidable procs/Icy Rays/SE etc. which are examples of very bad design. Dodging it as an HR or CW is quite a challenge though, but that's OK.
Couldn't they just make the glyphs equipable on PvE gear only?
If peeps wanted to use them in PvP they would have to equip their PvE gear which of course would give them a disadvantage in PvP, specifically with the Tenacity stat. No idea if that would be an even trade, they may still be way OP?
Of course I just threw that out there, no thought went into it, bear that in mind.
There is not PvE gear with overload slots. All gear with overload slots are PvP oriented gear.
Draconic gear has overload slots, friend.
As far as my thoughts on glyphs, I also have greater glyphs sitting in my bank. Absolutely refuse to use them...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Yup, most of the cheezers are shameless "pros" from PvP guilds. That's pretty much the same (type) of people that used tenes back in the day and thought they were skilled.
Now we are at bashing the dedicated pvp players again. This forum seems to be obsessed with pvp player bashing. Dont blame players for a broken system. If I want to play a serious premade these days, I have to be competive, or the whole purpose of pvp is gone at the beginning. Moral or integrety has nothing to do with it. Its not that red glyphs are an exploit or so, they are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op. I have never blamed tene user, roar users etc. U cant deny the fact that ur catched into a dynamic of power creep. If its out there it will be used. Like elixirs, r10s, legendaries. Is some of it stupid? Ofc! I dont want to pop 100k worth of elixirs per premade match, but I have to do it to level the playing field.
It would take like 10mins for the devs to fix this mess. I hope they do it. Because playing with these glyphs is stupid and playing without them means to loose which makes pvp obsolete.
Now we are at bashing the dedicated pvp players again. This forum seems to be obsessed with pvp player bashing. Dont blame players for a broken system. If I want to play a serious premade these days, I have to be competive, or the whole purpose of pvp is gone at the beginning. Moral or integrety has nothing to do with it. Its not that red glyphs are an exploit or so, they are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op. I have never blamed tene user, roar users etc. U cant deny the fact that ur catched into a dynamic of power creep. If its out there it will be used. Like elixirs, r10s, legendaries. Is some of it stupid? Ofc! I dont want to pop 100k worth of elixirs per premade match, but I have to do it to level the playing field.
It would take like 10mins for the devs to fix this mess. I hope they do it. Because playing with these glyphs is stupid and playing without them means to loose which makes pvp obsolete.
Well I have my 10s and legendaries too and am a "dedicated PvPer", formerly until glyphs are dealt with. I choose NOT to use glyphs though, and because I recognize that I will probably get owned by glyph users, I just stopped PvPing.
You see, thing is that there are some limits in what "competitive" is. Elixirs are annoying, but with a few leadership chars, I get them mostly for free. They also do not allow me to one-rotation people, actually a full elixirs pmvspm seem to lasts longer, people are harder to kill.
Thing is, the Tenes, Glyphs and no-skill procs push the game into a Point&Click "ezy, nab friendly" mode. You press mouse button, and shiny numbers start filling the screen. Numbers that sometimes even ignore DR or Dodging.
Another thing is, the "top" PvPers should work together to accelerate the removal of such mechanics. People should NOT use this stuff and frown those that do, exclude them from guilds and parties.
What I see, however, is people that I used to respect and consider good PvPers jumping into the glyph bandwagon immediately and being quiet about it. People that say "glyphs are bad", then after one hour I inspect, they are wearing Reds. People that QQ their class is not viable without glyphs, as if the adversary is unable to slot them too.
There are some expectations from such people. If they would stop using the glyphs and tell their lower rank guildies to stop using them as well, things would improve substantially. Pugs would lose anyway, glyphs or not.
Well I have my 10s and legendaries too and am a "dedicated PvPer", formerly until glyphs are dealt with. I choose NOT to use glyphs though, and because I recognize that I will probably get owned by glyph users, I just stopped PvPing.
You see, thing is that there are some limits in what "competitive" is. Elixirs are annoying, but with a few leadership chars, I get them mostly for free. They also do not allow me to one-rotation people, actually a full elixirs pmvspm seem to lasts longer, people are harder to kill.
Thing is, the Tenes, Glyphs and no-skill procs push the game into a Point&Click "ezy, nab friendly" mode. You press mouse button, and shiny numbers start filling the screen. Numbers that sometimes even ignore DR or Dodging.
Another thing is, the "top" PvPers should work together to accelerate the removal of such mechanics. People should NOT use this stuff and frown those that do, exclude them from guilds and parties.
What I see, however, is people that I used to respect and consider good PvPers jumping into the glyph bandwagon immediately and being quiet about it. People that say "glyphs are bad", then after one hour I inspect, they are wearing Reds. People that QQ their class is not viable without glyphs, as if the adversary is unable to slot them too.
There are some expectations from such people. If they would stop using the glyphs and tell their lower rank guildies to stop suing them as well, things would improve substantially. Pugs would lose anyway, glyphs or not.
It's a shame it doesn't work like that, I wish people would work together to get rid of these but instead people use them and are proud of it and others complain about certain classes that will lead to a class nerf instead of the glyphs hen they are the real problem
I have better things to spend my ad on than these glyphs, just like I never potion buff either, I need my ad for other things rather than giving me an advantage in pvp that I don't need, so the top pvpers that are using these all the time I think are a little sad but I can understand in a way if they are always up against glyph users too.
Funny thing is though people don't really need them...pvp would be fine without buffs and it's not like they are a must have for any class. Today I played pvped a LOT and lost 7 games in a row. I solo que and got the worst luck possible but I only died 5 times in them 7 games and I don't use glyphs nor am I a payer/maxed char so I don't get why other high pvpers are relying on them so much.
I say everyone should go on a glyph hunt and all just target the player using the glyphs, you might die a lot from other players but as long as mr glyph dies a lot then people might think " yeah these glyphs are good, but everyone seems to want me dead now" lol
Well, some classes are not viable at all, with or without glyphs/enchants, but due other classes "base" over performance (auto proc damage, piercing damage, DoT, etc)... and that (both over and under performances) is a problem and that is what must be attended.
I think all classes can use them very well except maybe gwf
Gf: reflect style, kill all enemies who hit anything.
cleric: The beam thing, they get very high dmg from this with glyphs.
TR: can do 25k+ dmg with 1 at-will using red glyphs (duelists flurry)
SW: Most of there powers are dot or fast hits so they can kill players very quickly especially using warlocks bargain.
CW: Again many moves that can make glyphs proc and deal very high dmg, 1 rotation most players.
HR: Can deal about 100k dmg in 1 rotation with red glyphs lol, crazy dot dmg.
Well I have my 10s and legendaries too and am a "dedicated PvPer", formerly until glyphs are dealt with. I choose NOT to use glyphs though, and because I recognize that I will probably get owned by glyph users, I just stopped PvPing.
You see, thing is that there are some limits in what "competitive" is. Elixirs are annoying, but with a few leadership chars, I get them mostly for free. They also do not allow me to one-rotation people, actually a full elixirs pmvspm seem to lasts longer, people are harder to kill.
Thing is, the Tenes, Glyphs and no-skill procs push the game into a Point&Click "ezy, nab friendly" mode. You press mouse button, and shiny numbers start filling the screen. Numbers that sometimes even ignore DR or Dodging.
Another thing is, the "top" PvPers should work together to accelerate the removal of such mechanics. People should NOT use this stuff and frown those that do, exclude them from guilds and parties.
What I see, however, is people that I used to respect and consider good PvPers jumping into the glyph bandwagon immediately and being quiet about it. People that say "glyphs are bad", then after one hour I inspect, they are wearing Reds. People that QQ their class is not viable without glyphs, as if the adversary is unable to slot them too.
There are some expectations from such people. If they would stop using the glyphs and tell their lower rank guildies to stop using them as well, things would improve substantially. Pugs would lose anyway, glyphs or not.
Well, I don't PvP in this mode (I'm not even playing), but if people want to PvP the only way to fight Glyphs users is using Glyphs, you don't PvP so you don't have to face the frustration by dying for someone that use that OP Glyphs, so I kinda understand that other people use it after some PvP match cause the get angry... It's a cycle I know, but when you are on a punch circle it's hard to stop that while you are the one who is punched... So for me using Glyphs and saying that they should be removed it's a valid point of view.
Actually they were clearly made for PVe purposes...
I don't think so... They came out with mod3, and only on a pvp set. If they were made for pve, putting them on a pvp set a module before they released a pve set doesn't make sense. In pve, the glyphs don't add significantly to dps. Hence why you don't see complaints about its pve utility in the forums.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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jennyavarielMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 167
edited September 2014
Yep. PvPer's demanded balance. So now, you can all buy balanced glyphs, and play a nice balanced round of 'hit the other guy till he stops hitting me back'.
Enjoy
Note to devs: Thanks for the glyphs. We need more things like this. Maybe add a new tier of 'reinforced glyphs' or something. Something with a bit more 'oomph'. I think there should be a glyph that prones your opponent in pvp. That sounds balanced.
Not all overloads are GLYPHS. Just the new, Module 4 ones, such as Blue Dragon Glyph or Red Dragon Glyph.
Balanced overloads, that nobody complained about were introduced in Mod 3, such as Greater Corrupt Black Ice Enchantment.
Only the newer glyphs are problematic. The other older overloads proc for just some additional stats and maybe some Power or temp HP, which are useful, but it's not even close to 600 damage/tick of anything.
Not all overloads are GLYPHS. Just the new, Module 4 ones, such as Blue Dragon Glyph or Red Dragon Glyph.
Balanced overloads, that nobody complained about were introduced in Mod 3, such as Greater Corrupt Black Ice Enchantment.
Only the newer glyphs are problematic. The other older overloads proc for just some additional stats and maybe some Power or temp HP, which are useful, but it's not even close to 600 damage/tick of anything.
Correction. I was thinking of the overload slots themselves and their capacity to hold them, not the glyphs themselves. My bad.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
You PvP types should be happy. Glyphs were made for you. Use them. Enjoy them. You *deserve* them.
Yes I deserve having my hp shredded when blocking a duelist flurry and losing 12k hp. Yes I really like how these glyphs bypass a class mechanic making it almost pointless to use.
I noticed elixirs just lately. But found out that many dedicated pvpers have 12km of stuff buffing their toon even when they pug.
I usually only use campfire buff and invocation if it's up
Was just wondering if elixirs are now 'accepted' in pvp.
Comments
You mean HRs and GWFs having pure skill in module 3? Yeah pure skill......
all is fixed
Then you mention Blitz. Yes, it's slows, not bad. But Blitz will work only in specific circumstances (Enemies need to be set in the right position, must be in stealth, etc), and also a Slow effect isn't as good as a daze/stun/freeze other effect that makes the monster not fight you back.
Wicked Reminder is good, but is only useful on boss fights that last more than a minute, which is maybe 1-3 bosses per dungeon. Other than that, it does nothing. Wicked Reminder is not the difference between a boss going down or not going down. Wicked Reminder is the difference between if the boss takes 5 minutes to complete or 7 minutes to complete. Wicked Reminder has very limited uses in most dungeons because most dungeons have low defense/low hp opponents in big amounts.
So I explained why the skills you use are nice, but aren't essential to a party.
Now you also mentioned your role is making sure casters don't get in trouble. Ok, sounds reasonable, TRs can do that. But... is it the only class that can do it? In fact, does it even do it well? Let's think about other classes that can probably defend casters better than TRs...
1. Guardian Fighter. Because when the tank takes all the aggro, casters aren't in trouble.
2. Devoted Cleric. Because constant healing or buff/debuff abilities all over the dungeon does better than a good timed smoke bomb...
3. Another Control Wizard to defend the Control Wizards... Pretty trivial, right? Not only is he a better controller than you, but his AoE damage beats anything you can offer
Now you could argue that Warlocks are better too, because they have higher single target damage than TR, and from range, so they don't really need to chase the casters around the battle, and some builds can help with healing... And you could argue that a GWF could be better because he has better AoE than the TR and can add some tanking, and you could argue that the HR, that greatly outdamages the TR with equal gear would contribute to the party much more...
The point is, TRs aren't essential for dungeons, Just make an experiment with your guild, while doing a dungeon run log off and see if your casters manage to survive, or have them invite someone else and see if they still complete the dungeon at the same rate.
If that is the case then problem if fixed with gf's not cw and hr
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Exactly! That only would prevent GFs from abusing these glyphs. But HRs and CWs profit even more from them in single target dmg. It needs to be nerfed for all classes not only GFs.
Yes the glyphs nerfed would be great and gf kv should not grant ap from allies or gf players will be able to keep up daily's like crazy. It's mainly bad because glyphs are in the game but perma daily is still too much.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I was in page 22.Glyphs come out ,fellow Gfs abusing them with KV/SoS/Gaurded assault combo.
Dawn to page 86
Ok then....got angry bought one greater green and one greater blue.
Went to pvp.
latest scores:17-1 ,16-0,21-4.At the last match a faced perfect vorpal GWF who try to fight me bravely head on.Killed by just attacking me in 4-5 secs.
At that point i stopped pvping.
Cause any Glyph toon it is guaranteed to kill any non,whatever the conditions and the rotations.
PVP WITH GLYPHS IS JUST PLAIN BROKEN.
And a comparison with greater BI enchantements:
Take 18 hours to make.require BI .Are only activated for 8 secs.
Glyph nonsense enchantements.
Are bloddy cheap in ah.(200ad the lessers!! lol) .Do not require anything.Are activated for 20 secs(!!!) every 60 secs.
And can do 800 unmitigated damage minimum.
Glyps are op as hell.
Nerf them before they destroy pvp completely.
when i run the epic dragon skirmish with guardians/wizards/clerics and we get the barbarian ambush, everyone else tends to die long b4 i do and i am in melee-range of all those hard-hitting aoe spams. gf pretty much dies in a few constant barrages depending on how tanky he is and a single wizard is generally incapable of freezing everything so there isn't much i notice from them. i can, however, occasionally prevent a single death by timing my frost enchant, smoke bomb, dazing strike, and whirlwind of blades (pretty much an aoe stun with frost) properly to protect the rest of the team.
generally, smoke bomb is among the strongest aoe cc's for pve and the only restriction is everything being in melee range. if there is 3 rogues to replace 3 wizards then that is near constant uptime on dazes which can make some dungeons easier at the price of lacking aoe dps.
wizard's do have powerful dps and cc, but requires 2-3 wizards to really make a team difference. i have noticed that the aoe dps that 3 wizards do is like a constant tyrannical threat since my warlock can barely get enough elites to have the fight last longer than the duration of tyrannical with 3 of those nukes walking around >.>
they can be helpful if you are not running a 3+ wizard group. they definitely won't speed up the dungeon more than another wizard/warlock or can absorb damage like gf's, but that's about it. they can simply provide survivability that other classes can't give outside of stacking wizards.
although, nobody mentions a rogue's +5% critical buff as a speed boost for dungeons though.
PvP is suffering more than ever due to these glyphs. It often takes 20 minutes in the queue to get a match going and I suspect that's simply because it takes that long to get even 10 people who are interested in playing. The gear creep in this game is bad enough without introducing these glyphs at all, and the few people who want to log in and pvp can't because they have to go grind to keep up with the Jones's.
All of my toons are PvP spec and geared. I've never even ran a dungeon in this game at lvl 60. I signed on for fun PvP, and it used to be. It sometimes still is when we get a decent matchup, but that's getting harder and harder to achieve. How can a matchup system even work when there are too few players to select from?
My vote is to remove glyphs from PvP entirely.
This statement is getting very old. PvP exists in NW, get over it.
The glyphs need a nerf, make them not function in PvP. As it stands now a GF is doing almost as much, if not more, damage than my CW by doing nothing but holding shield up and running KV.
+1!
Many players have stopped queuing for pvp, including myself. Premades are not possible because of the troll potential of multiple GFs. And pugging is more imbalanced than ever.
Remove the glyphs from pvp! Seriously!
So all they do at the moment is making PvP suck and turning into a one-shot fest.
Tenacity was introduced for a purpose - to end the one-rotation deaths. This NEEDS to return. People have way too much DPS now.
Dude everyone can use glyphs. It's a question of honor and integrity not to. I refuse to slot them on my CW or HR. I know other players that do the same.
You can either play the "meta" card and use the latest lame cheez, slot your char with 100 Tenebrous and Reds, or have some morality left and plainly refuse to put them in.
It's not like we don't have them for free already from running LoL/SoT, or that we miss overload set pieces.
We just don't want to have anything to do with them.
This module already made my main classes, CW and HR, full of so much Point&Click&Proc cheez it made me stop PvPing. Adding the gyphs was the last drop.
Just so you know, this is a battle we went through before, when we fought to get the Tenebrous enchants nerfed. Took many weeks until they were nerfed to the ground and fell into desuetude... until now.
Free procs for lots of damage? No, thank you! This is an Action game. You should LAND your TARGETED attacks.
Good Examples:
- Frontline Surge
- Shard of the Endless Avalanche
Bad Examples:
- all "homing" attacks with short animations, such as Boar Charge, Disruptive
- Icy Rays/WoB/SE type of theoretically unavoidable <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>
At this time, GWF FLS/Takedown/IBS is the only semi-good, action-like rotation in the game, although FLS is near instantaneous, which isn't really OK either.
Conclusion is we need to move away from guaranteed attacks and procs and things that avoid dodges and DR such as Piercing Blade/Whirlwind of Blades/Shocking Execution.
We need to have rotations that take skill to land and can be avoided through skill as well.
Yup, most of the cheezers are shameless "pros" from PvP guilds. That's pretty much the same (type) of people that used tenes back in the day and thought they were skilled. Tenes are not that useless, and they should never be buffed, because their power grows with HP, and people have 40-60K HP+ in PvP now, compared to 30K when Tenes ruled. Any proc mechanic requiring no skill to land should do small damage. The Draconic gloves/head are cheap to get and many use them as a means of cheezing until they get BI.
You cannot dodge SE, you can out range it. Same is true for Icy Rays for example, if I mark someone, and they somehow go out of range as I push Icy Rays second time, IR will go on full cooldown. I think you can dodge WoB, but only as a coincidence, or with a prolonged "dodge" such as SW/GWF's. It still ignores DR so yeah... fix that part at least.
Frontline is near instantaneous. It's a good skill though, because you need to target it and you might miss. This puts it in the "great design" category, in contrast to things such as unavoidable procs/Icy Rays/SE etc. which are examples of very bad design. Dodging it as an HR or CW is quite a challenge though, but that's OK.
If peeps wanted to use them in PvP they would have to equip their PvE gear which of course would give them a disadvantage in PvP, specifically with the Tenacity stat. No idea if that would be an even trade, they may still be way OP?
Of course I just threw that out there, no thought went into it, bear that in mind.
Draconic gear has overload slots, friend.
As far as my thoughts on glyphs, I also have greater glyphs sitting in my bank. Absolutely refuse to use them...
Now we are at bashing the dedicated pvp players again. This forum seems to be obsessed with pvp player bashing. Dont blame players for a broken system. If I want to play a serious premade these days, I have to be competive, or the whole purpose of pvp is gone at the beginning. Moral or integrety has nothing to do with it. Its not that red glyphs are an exploit or so, they are just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> op. I have never blamed tene user, roar users etc. U cant deny the fact that ur catched into a dynamic of power creep. If its out there it will be used. Like elixirs, r10s, legendaries. Is some of it stupid? Ofc! I dont want to pop 100k worth of elixirs per premade match, but I have to do it to level the playing field.
It would take like 10mins for the devs to fix this mess. I hope they do it. Because playing with these glyphs is stupid and playing without them means to loose which makes pvp obsolete.
Well I have my 10s and legendaries too and am a "dedicated PvPer", formerly until glyphs are dealt with. I choose NOT to use glyphs though, and because I recognize that I will probably get owned by glyph users, I just stopped PvPing.
You see, thing is that there are some limits in what "competitive" is. Elixirs are annoying, but with a few leadership chars, I get them mostly for free. They also do not allow me to one-rotation people, actually a full elixirs pmvspm seem to lasts longer, people are harder to kill.
Thing is, the Tenes, Glyphs and no-skill procs push the game into a Point&Click "ezy, nab friendly" mode. You press mouse button, and shiny numbers start filling the screen. Numbers that sometimes even ignore DR or Dodging.
Another thing is, the "top" PvPers should work together to accelerate the removal of such mechanics. People should NOT use this stuff and frown those that do, exclude them from guilds and parties.
What I see, however, is people that I used to respect and consider good PvPers jumping into the glyph bandwagon immediately and being quiet about it. People that say "glyphs are bad", then after one hour I inspect, they are wearing Reds. People that QQ their class is not viable without glyphs, as if the adversary is unable to slot them too.
There are some expectations from such people. If they would stop using the glyphs and tell their lower rank guildies to stop using them as well, things would improve substantially. Pugs would lose anyway, glyphs or not.
It's a shame it doesn't work like that, I wish people would work together to get rid of these but instead people use them and are proud of it and others complain about certain classes that will lead to a class nerf instead of the glyphs hen they are the real problem
I have better things to spend my ad on than these glyphs, just like I never potion buff either, I need my ad for other things rather than giving me an advantage in pvp that I don't need, so the top pvpers that are using these all the time I think are a little sad but I can understand in a way if they are always up against glyph users too.
Funny thing is though people don't really need them...pvp would be fine without buffs and it's not like they are a must have for any class. Today I played pvped a LOT and lost 7 games in a row. I solo que and got the worst luck possible but I only died 5 times in them 7 games and I don't use glyphs nor am I a payer/maxed char so I don't get why other high pvpers are relying on them so much.
I say everyone should go on a glyph hunt and all just target the player using the glyphs, you might die a lot from other players but as long as mr glyph dies a lot then people might think " yeah these glyphs are good, but everyone seems to want me dead now" lol
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I think all classes can use them very well except maybe gwf
Gf: reflect style, kill all enemies who hit anything.
cleric: The beam thing, they get very high dmg from this with glyphs.
TR: can do 25k+ dmg with 1 at-will using red glyphs (duelists flurry)
SW: Most of there powers are dot or fast hits so they can kill players very quickly especially using warlocks bargain.
CW: Again many moves that can make glyphs proc and deal very high dmg, 1 rotation most players.
HR: Can deal about 100k dmg in 1 rotation with red glyphs lol, crazy dot dmg.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Well, I don't PvP in this mode (I'm not even playing), but if people want to PvP the only way to fight Glyphs users is using Glyphs, you don't PvP so you don't have to face the frustration by dying for someone that use that OP Glyphs, so I kinda understand that other people use it after some PvP match cause the get angry... It's a cycle I know, but when you are on a punch circle it's hard to stop that while you are the one who is punched... So for me using Glyphs and saying that they should be removed it's a valid point of view.
Actually they were clearly made for PVe purposes...
I don't think so... They came out with mod3, and only on a pvp set. If they were made for pve, putting them on a pvp set a module before they released a pve set doesn't make sense. In pve, the glyphs don't add significantly to dps. Hence why you don't see complaints about its pve utility in the forums.
Enjoy
Note to devs: Thanks for the glyphs. We need more things like this. Maybe add a new tier of 'reinforced glyphs' or something. Something with a bit more 'oomph'. I think there should be a glyph that prones your opponent in pvp. That sounds balanced.
Balanced overloads, that nobody complained about were introduced in Mod 3, such as Greater Corrupt Black Ice Enchantment.
Only the newer glyphs are problematic. The other older overloads proc for just some additional stats and maybe some Power or temp HP, which are useful, but it's not even close to 600 damage/tick of anything.
Correction. I was thinking of the overload slots themselves and their capacity to hold them, not the glyphs themselves. My bad.
Yes I deserve having my hp shredded when blocking a duelist flurry and losing 12k hp. Yes I really like how these glyphs bypass a class mechanic making it almost pointless to use.
I usually only use campfire buff and invocation if it's up
Was just wondering if elixirs are now 'accepted' in pvp.