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Dragon glyphs, ruining pvp.

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  • edited September 2014
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  • crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    clonkyo1 wrote: »
    Well, some classes are not viable at all, with or without glyphs/enchants, but due other classes "base" over performance (auto proc damage, piercing damage, DoT, etc)... and that (both over and under performances) is a problem and that is what must be attended.

    I think all classes can use them very well except maybe gwf

    Gf: reflect style, kill all enemies who hit anything.

    cleric: The beam thing, they get very high dmg from this with glyphs.

    TR: can do 25k+ dmg with 1 at-will using red glyphs (duelists flurry)

    SW: Most of there powers are dot or fast hits so they can kill players very quickly especially using warlocks bargain.

    CW: Again many moves that can make glyphs proc and deal very high dmg, 1 rotation most players.

    HR: Can deal about 100k dmg in 1 rotation with red glyphs lol, crazy dot dmg.
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • benja32gonsalesbenja32gonsales Member Posts: 236 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Well I have my 10s and legendaries too and am a "dedicated PvPer", formerly until glyphs are dealt with. I choose NOT to use glyphs though, and because I recognize that I will probably get owned by glyph users, I just stopped PvPing.

    You see, thing is that there are some limits in what "competitive" is. Elixirs are annoying, but with a few leadership chars, I get them mostly for free. They also do not allow me to one-rotation people, actually a full elixirs pmvspm seem to lasts longer, people are harder to kill.

    Thing is, the Tenes, Glyphs and no-skill procs push the game into a Point&Click "ezy, nab friendly" mode. You press mouse button, and shiny numbers start filling the screen. Numbers that sometimes even ignore DR or Dodging.

    Another thing is, the "top" PvPers should work together to accelerate the removal of such mechanics. People should NOT use this stuff and frown those that do, exclude them from guilds and parties.

    What I see, however, is people that I used to respect and consider good PvPers jumping into the glyph bandwagon immediately and being quiet about it. People that say "glyphs are bad", then after one hour I inspect, they are wearing Reds. People that QQ their class is not viable without glyphs, as if the adversary is unable to slot them too.

    There are some expectations from such people. If they would stop using the glyphs and tell their lower rank guildies to stop using them as well, things would improve substantially. Pugs would lose anyway, glyphs or not.

    Well, I don't PvP in this mode (I'm not even playing), but if people want to PvP the only way to fight Glyphs users is using Glyphs, you don't PvP so you don't have to face the frustration by dying for someone that use that OP Glyphs, so I kinda understand that other people use it after some PvP match cause the get angry... It's a cycle I know, but when you are on a punch circle it's hard to stop that while you are the one who is punched... So for me using Glyphs and saying that they should be removed it's a valid point of view.
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited September 2014
    You PvP types should be happy. Glyphs were made for you. Use them. Enjoy them. You *deserve* them.
  • ayrouxayroux Member Posts: 4,271 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You PvP types should be happy. Glyphs were made for you. Use them. Enjoy them. You *deserve* them.

    Actually they were clearly made for PVe purposes...
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    ayroux wrote: »
    Actually they were clearly made for PVe purposes...

    I don't think so... They came out with mod3, and only on a pvp set. If they were made for pve, putting them on a pvp set a module before they released a pve set doesn't make sense. In pve, the glyphs don't add significantly to dps. Hence why you don't see complaints about its pve utility in the forums.
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • jennyavarieljennyavariel Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 167
    edited September 2014
    Yep. PvPer's demanded balance. So now, you can all buy balanced glyphs, and play a nice balanced round of 'hit the other guy till he stops hitting me back'.

    Enjoy :)

    Note to devs: Thanks for the glyphs. We need more things like this. Maybe add a new tier of 'reinforced glyphs' or something. Something with a bit more 'oomph'. I think there should be a glyph that prones your opponent in pvp. That sounds balanced.
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Not all overloads are GLYPHS. Just the new, Module 4 ones, such as Blue Dragon Glyph or Red Dragon Glyph.

    Balanced overloads, that nobody complained about were introduced in Mod 3, such as Greater Corrupt Black Ice Enchantment.

    Only the newer glyphs are problematic. The other older overloads proc for just some additional stats and maybe some Power or temp HP, which are useful, but it's not even close to 600 damage/tick of anything.
  • williep30williep30 Member Posts: 773 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Not all overloads are GLYPHS. Just the new, Module 4 ones, such as Blue Dragon Glyph or Red Dragon Glyph.

    Balanced overloads, that nobody complained about were introduced in Mod 3, such as Greater Corrupt Black Ice Enchantment.

    Only the newer glyphs are problematic. The other older overloads proc for just some additional stats and maybe some Power or temp HP, which are useful, but it's not even close to 600 damage/tick of anything.

    Correction. I was thinking of the overload slots themselves and their capacity to hold them, not the glyphs themselves. My bad.
    I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
  • edited September 2014
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  • mfgamesysmfgamesys Member Posts: 462 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    You PvP types should be happy. Glyphs were made for you. Use them. Enjoy them. You *deserve* them.

    Yes I deserve having my hp shredded when blocking a duelist flurry and losing 12k hp. Yes I really like how these glyphs bypass a class mechanic making it almost pointless to use.
    Main-Lothor Syralth Guardian Fighter
  • pando83pando83 Member Posts: 2,564 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I noticed elixirs just lately. But found out that many dedicated pvpers have 12km of stuff buffing their toon even when they pug.
    I usually only use campfire buff and invocation if it's up
    Was just wondering if elixirs are now 'accepted' in pvp.
  • magiquepursemagiquepurse Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    pando83 wrote: »
    I noticed elixirs just lately. But found out that many dedicated pvpers have 12km of stuff buffing their toon even when they pug.
    I usually only use campfire buff and invocation if it's up
    Was just wondering if elixirs are now 'accepted' in pvp.

    No, nobody wanted them at all. If you look at the older premades when PvP meant something, such as Lemonade Stand vs ET etc., you will see pretty much nobody has elixirs, with some very rare random exceptions.

    They were pretty much forced upon the PvP community by people that just went at one point "I built my character with elixirs in mind:, i.e. taking advantage of softcaps and stacking for example Power without diminishing returns and leaving the rest undercapped because they knew elixirs will cover it.

    While we didn't like this at all, soon more and more people started using elixirs, flasks and foods. Sometimes it's quite comical seeing streams of these PvPers popping desperately any consumable in their inventory, losing valuable seconds off point to do it and so on.

    So after this moment, there was nothing else to do but adapt and use elixirs too - or die and lose.

    The elixirs equal 7 more Rank 10 enchants, and some procs too. Then there is the Feast, Caprese, flasks... sign of how desperate are people to win.
  • yoadoadyoadoad Member Posts: 182 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Elixirs are accepted, but elixirs are different than glyphs because:
    1. Elixirs aren't game changers - Having +200 Power/Critical/Recovery does not equal +600 damage per strike or some other cheese
    2. Elixirs work to further increase your stats - They don't completely ignore your stats (Glyphs don't care about YOUR stats and they don't care about the OPPONENT stats - you can have 1000 power and the opponent can have 6k defense and the glyph would still do 600 damage)
    3. Elixirs do not limit you to only two sets of equipment.
  • vinceent1vinceent1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,264 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    yeah, but consider too, there are "orange all that can" players roflstomped others more quickly, that gwf at his best times. its more expensive than glyphs, but makes grande imbalance in pvp too. this artifact gear is the worst thing what can happen. these who were rich from SOME sources, become beast in play, no matter of class, so for eternity
  • tearsoffeartearsoffear Member Posts: 89 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    No, nobody wanted them at all. If you look at the older premades when PvP meant something, such as Lemonade Stand vs ET etc., you will see pretty much nobody has elixirs, with some very rare random exceptions.
    They did not have elixirs but 25 in all stats and most were banned for bug using.
    So, if you ask me if pots or bugs, I prefer to use pots.
  • edited September 2014
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  • zildan7905zildan7905 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    crixus8000 wrote: »
    So what your saying is the guardian fighter needs to be nerfed just because of an in game item ? IT IS NOT THE GF, it is the glyph that is causing all the problems and if they nerf gf it will be a huge mistake. We was weak all in mod 3 finally get a buff and now people want nerfs and say they are fixes for something that is not even wrong with the class.

    Finally, something I can agree on. As a Tiefling GF 16k with Iron Warrior, Into the Frey, Knights Valor, Guarded Assault and Shield talent... I AM A FULL DAMAGE REFLECT build, a buff/debuff TANK. Throughout my boons I opted for the most tanky I could find to that end and went with Protector tree/paragon path. I don't use glyphs. There's Tenembrous in ever offensive slot I have (wow, 3). Don't need glyphs to to win. Supremacy of Steel travels with briartwine thorns and Knights Valor (to block party damage and 'assist') I don't make many kills if any, but mostly assists and I am on page 47 of standing - not using glyphs!

    I've run PUG pvp parties with some of the most gregariously over geared players you've ever seen in this game (with legendary stuff and toped out gear score) and they were asking why I don't have red dragon glyphs. I tell them I dont need them for a win :[

    Therefore, it is my OPINION that those GFs using glyphs, (espically the red ones) are harping on a GLITCH, a widely known bug, (cheating) - and should be banned!

    Field testing glyphs was a sorrowful mistake by the makers of this game! It throws completely legit players to the curb with a 'ha-ha there's nothing you can do about it! You mad bro?' kind-of mantra. I am an invincible Overlord taking a stand for 'doing it the right way' and winning w/o using glyphs. Ban the glyphs or ban the people using them or if neither of which happens, PVP will be a mute point and GFs will be directly to blame since they are the spotlight of the ones putting every other class - even other GFs at such a disadvantage.

    The green dragon glyphs give deflect.. DEFLECT DOES NOT MATTER to other glyphs damage.
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    In apb there was sort of analogue to glyphs and potions in that you could do really lame things to win. APB was and is a shooting game where everyone has the same amount of health so new players and old players will die in the exact same amount of time when shot when the starting gun and they intend and sort of succeed in making all other guns sidegrades to the starting gun. It has had its own balance issues to put it generously but that's neither here nor there. The lamest do anything to win tactics weren't really weapon related they were part of the nature of the gameworld because it was open world. If the final stage was hold on to a bag longest for five minutes people would get on to some impossibly hard to capture roof and just sit there. Like one ladder up, four guys with rifles staring at it, gg no re.

    When everyone did this or some variation of this the matches were just excruciating because the game could be balanced for like 20 minutes and then it all comes down to who spawns closest and knows the most aggravating spots, and there were a lot of them. Anyway the devs did try to cut down on this a bit but in an openworld game stupid spots are whack a mole. Anyway the top players stopped doing this nonsense because a) its boring b) its uncompetitive c) can you even really call it winning. APB is still a million miles from a competitive game but a lot of people in it come from cs so they follow the sort of competitive spirit in other games. Anyway this sort of good behaviour fed down the chain to an extent. Now quite a lot of players just won't do the lame stuff for similar reasons and because everyone will make fun of them for being cowardly and weak. So you kind of have a culture to an extent of fairplay even in situations where one side could easily shut down the other side's capacity to make a comeback. And it had a really nice cumulative effect in that you got to recognise the clans that were fun players who would play a square game with you so even if you were a feminine hygiene product sometimes you were inclined to give them a fairgame on the basis they were giving you one regardless of outcome or even your own behaviour.

    The only way it kind of worked to the extent that it did was better players could outclass worse players and still win without resorting to being a bad. Like I don't want to overgild the lily here because there are still a bunch of spots if you have to attack against people who aren't using a trackpad to aim you are going to lose but generally people recognise the situation for what it is. This winning despite not being lame isn't really possible in Neverwinter because to be frank Neverwinter pvp isn't really reliant on skill, just basic communication. There is a perma stealth on 3, unkillable joe you should go hang out with him etc. Oh and of course massive gearscores. If you have more health and do more damage and control than the other guy he doesn't stand a chance. If you are the 7k new 60 it doesn't matter how good your gamesense is. The guy with the bigger gs and most op artifact is going to win so long as he knows how to press buttons. You can actually macro it so he doesn't even have to do that and have everything bound one after the other to left click with target lock attached to it as well.

    Everyone recognises that having the best gear is pretty much being the best player. We can split hairs and talk about builds but lets not kid ourselves about it being rocketscience to look at a feat tree and recognise what does damage and what makes you tankier. There is zero point in being upset about the glyphs because Neverwinter pvp is about having the most gear. Complaining about glyphs is insisting that bows and arrows were fairer than guns but the guys still playing with a rock has it coming if I'm up against him. The whole thing is built on you acquiring more and better gear.

    Having any kind of culture of fairplay in Neverwinter is impossible because of gear.
  • zildan7905zildan7905 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited September 2014
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    so YAY they're reading it!
  • zildan7905zildan7905 Member Posts: 40 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    Glyps are op as hell.
    Nerf them before they destroy pvp completely.

    too late PVP is 'completely destroyed'
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    If you had a match with no artifacts, no glyphs, no pots and no enchants of any kind you would quickly find out who built their character right and who plays intelligently. Of course its impossible because who is going to disarm themselves first. You would have to have some disable them all first, like crptic who absolutely want an arms race pvp game.

    “When the tide goes out you can tell who’s been skinny dipping.”
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    If you had a match with no artifacts, no glyphs, no pots and no enchants of any kind you would quickly find out who built their character right and who plays intelligently. Of course its impossible because who is going to disarm themselves first. You would have to have some disable them all first, like crptic who absolutely want an arms race pvp game.

    “When the tide goes out you can tell who’s been skinny dipping.”

    I can agreed with thread starter, Dragon Glyphs actually killing interest in pvp....
    Couple minutes ago i had dominion fight 5vs5. Looks normal,, but funny thing is. Some dudes, come in to fight, and they don't have even bother to attack..
    I hitted rogue from distance and I taked down 90% of my own HP by simply attacking that guy. He didn't even looked to my side, he where "busy" with other one.. Next one where GS character, same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Either he return back 90% my own HP, or if i hit him i got tons of dmg from nowhere and got killed..
    And actually i have x5 times more chance to live if do not attack..... how interesting should be fight if no matter what you gona do, you still get fuc_ked anyway. Either you kill by own attacks or by enemy hits.. o_O
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    I can agreed with thread starter, Dragon Glyphs actually killing interest in pvp....
    Couple minutes ago i had dominion fight 5vs5. Looks normal,, but funny thing is. Some dudes, come in to fight, and they don't have even bother to attack..
    I hitted rogue from distance and I taked down 90% of my own HP by simply attacking that guy. He didn't even looked to my side, he where "busy" with other one.. Next one where GS character, same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Either he return back 90% my own HP, or if i hit him i got tons of dmg from nowhere and got killed..
    And actually i have x5 times more chance to live if do not attack..... how interesting should be fight if no matter what you gona do, you still get fuc_ked anyway. Either you kill by own attacks or by enemy hits.. o_O

    If they had a blue aura, they had a glyph using GF friend. only way to beat this, is to CC the GF, so KV gets interrupted, then you can begin your killing spree. Other way is to run around a corner and hope, that the enemy, excluding the GF, follows you. Now, that KV respects line of sight, some players where up for a nasty surprise without KV/glyph OPness.
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    asterotg wrote: »
    If they had a blue aura, they had a glyph using GF friend. only way to beat this, is to CC the GF, so KV gets interrupted, then you can begin your killing spree. Other way is to run around a corner and hope, that the enemy, excluding the GF, follows you. Now, that KV respects line of sight, some players where up for a nasty surprise without KV/glyph OPness.

    Like i have wrote before.. I have 5x more chance live longer if i hide... But come one, thats not pvp, its like duck hunting....
    I don't have this stuffs, and I don't even planing getting them. What the point have boring fights....

    With CW probably I can stand against him without big problems.. But not with warlock which have only one control spell/curse..

    also about 15 min ago I where again in dominion fight and hell I liked it,, It where realy fun, and even my team, lose I still liked it... Without imortaliyy, damage from and other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...

    And also dominion teams should be build by gear points. not only by lv...
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
  • crixus8000crixus8000 Member Posts: 1,205 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    The best way to do it would be to have a game mode where you start off and are equipped with green gear, all players would have the same so its fully balanced and artifacts and other things like that would be disabled until the end of the match. This way all players are fighting fairly, just down to pure skill. I have seen this in some other games and I love the idea.
    Crixus - PVP GF
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • ortzhyortzhy Member Posts: 1,103 Bounty Hunter
    edited September 2014
    Like i have wrote before.. I have 5x more chance live longer if i hide... But come one, thats not pvp, its like duck hunting....
    I don't have this stuffs, and I don't even planing getting them. What the point have boring fights....

    With CW probably I can stand against him without big problems.. But not with warlock which have only one control spell/curse..

    also about 15 min ago I where again in dominion fight and hell I liked it,, It where realy fun, and even my team, lose I still liked it... Without imortaliyy, damage from and other <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...

    And also dominion teams should be build by gear points. not only by lv...
    panderus wrote: »
    As a note, we have a fix for glyphs no longer triggering from reflective damage sources. I am not yet sure if it will be released next week yet however.
    just in case u;ve missed it
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    ortzhy wrote: »
    just in case u;ve missed it

    Reading is not believing. A friend of mine was german community admin and he told me half a year ago, that they would implement a dump for dread ring junk...
    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
  • blackiejblackiej Member Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    mod 5 changed it.
    ~ da Vinci (22k AC Faithfull PvP Cleric)
  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited September 2014
    grimah wrote: »
    probably a tactician swordmaster, theres a few of them about.

    Anyways the KV build is a problem. its funny if i go into GG with it on i just melt hte enemy team with little resistance. its the glyph's problem though, because it procs off our reflect it means anyone who attacks any other team member gets glyphs to the face, whilst the GF is safe behind their shield.

    ALL the dragon glyphs should be changed, having actives is just too much. just give them % increase, like +5% healing recieved, crit severity etc.

    But i have a feeling they will just put ICDs on them all.

    It appears your prediction of an ICD has happened.
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