Thing is, I have been watching vids, checking my CWs damage since mod4. Yes, shard got nerfed, but assailing force procced A LOT of damage to MORE than make up for it. Not to mention the silent buff added to Storm Spell, so now a class feat can hit around 9-10k. Ive seen the 12k CW critting for damage similar to, if not the same, as what youre showing. Look up on the forums for dps complaints. Its primarily littered with CW and HRs damage are too high threads. Watch vids of BiS GWFs they can really do a lot of damage as well, ESPECIALLY if they don't have to run around, or constantly run Unstoppable to survive, as opposed to damage. The very reason they got nerfed in mod4 is because they could heal back up(in fact, they've been slowly nerfed/buffed since beta to find an easy balance to their tanking).
The main reason i done this thread is to find balance some way. I will do it with any class that needs it, i have already made a thread and saying kv ap gain from allies shouldn't be happening and reflect on gf shouldn't work that well with glyphs. If i feel a class truly has a huge advantage over others then i will say my opinion and atm hr class dmg seems to be crazy and this would not bother me but it does for 2 reasons. 1. It only requires dot, no skill needed. 2. Hr i would say have best survivability in game if they go combat path. I just want balance, i dont think pvp will ever be full balanced but its worth a try
The main reason i done this thread is to find balance some way. I will do it with any class that needs it, i have already made a thread and saying kv ap gain from allies shouldn't be happening and reflect on gf shouldn't work that well with glyphs. If i feel a class truly has a huge advantage over others then i will say my opinion and atm hr class dmg seems to be crazy and this would not bother me but it does for 2 reasons. 1. It only requires dot, no skill needed. 2. Hr i would say have best survivability in game if they go combat path. I just want balance, i dont think pvp will ever be full balanced but its worth a try
And all im saying is that balance isn't in nerfing something so everyone else has an advantage but that class. HRs should've always been a striker class, yet I know for a fact that unless the CW is working with the HR, a CW will always outdamage an HR. They also have class features that are out of balance, and it bothers me for several reasons, the major one being that CW should've always been a controller/support class more than a striker class, not the other way around.
As far as KV ap gain, im also in those threads. GFs have a build that means 100% uptime SoS. I get that that shouldn't be happening. But taking their AP gain totally away is like saying to HRs "hey, youre a striker class, but you shouldn't be doing more damage than CWs" then people wonder why CWs are the more preferred class. Heck, the SW is a great dps class, but due to CWs being better in every other aspect, only dedicated SWs do consistently better than even middle ground(say, 12k) CWs. Is that fair?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
And all im saying is that balance isn't in nerfing something so everyone else has an advantage but that class. HRs should've always been a striker class, yet I know for a fact that unless the CW is working with the HR, a CW will always outdamage an HR. They also have class features that are out of balance, and it bothers me for several reasons, the major one being that CW should've always been a controller/support class more than a striker class, not the other way around.
As far as KV ap gain, im also in those threads. GFs have a build that means 100% uptime SoS. I get that that shouldn't be happening. But taking their AP gain totally away is like saying to HRs "hey, youre a striker class, but you shouldn't be doing more damage than CWs" then people wonder why CWs are the more preferred class. Heck, the SW is a great dps class, but due to CWs being better in every other aspect, only dedicated SWs do consistently better than even middle ground(say, 12k) CWs. Is that fair?
Well i don't want nerfs man and never have. if something should be changed then it could be done in a good way. Like i said, i would prefer the hr to be able to deal good dmg but it to require some skill not just using dot. Not sure how it could be done but you get the point. As for cw i will have to test with them sometime and see how the changes are but that vid you posted looked crazy lol
Well i don't want nerfs man and never have. if something should be changed then it could be done in a good way. Like i said, i would prefer the hr to be able to deal good dmg but it to require some skill not just using dot. Not sure how it could be done but you get the point. As for cw i will have to test with them sometime and see how the changes are but that vid you posted looked crazy lol
CWs really can post high damage too. It comes down to proccing feats for the 2 main dps classes(CW/HR/GWF). Look at their trees. All three have at least 1 brutal feat or class feat that procs OP damage right now. The HR(whether archer or combat) both get some amazing feats proccing for insane DoTs. I am not denying this. Im just saying that the weapon enchant wouldn't have mattered whether it was on or off, it was just another source for proccing. When it comes to all the classes currently, its all about attacking fast enough to let your "passive skills" do the damage for you. Storm Spell often hits around 9k on my 15.9k storm CW. That does more damage than Shard now! Since when did it become okay for a CW passive to outdamage one of its most complained about abilities?!
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Your intentions are good and you seem to genuinely desire balance.
So I'd say ignore the few HRs that are clinging desperately to the cheez in the class.
Is your video fully "legit"? Not really. The GWF is kinda meh and I think I can tank that damage better on my CW, and if I put Shield on Tab, there's no longer a question about this. Properly built GWFs are very tanky. Nobody uses RoS in PvP either. I assume you did it to proc Flurry.
These being said, HR does need damage, and Combat path that needs to be melee range needs to be able to tank, thorugh healing, deflect etc.
The real issue is that the damage is OVER TIME and will slowly eat you after it is applied, and there are many procs, part of them being Piercing.
So the real solution is to move the DoTs to Encounter damage, without taking away from the HR overall, but...
- the damage needs to respect DR/Dodges
- the damage needs to be AVOIDABLE. No more fire&forget. You either hit your target and do damage, or you miss and don't. Simple as that.
So overall, the video indeed shows the condition in which the HR is now, with DoTs and procs everywhere, but any change needs to be extremely careful, or it might destroy the class completely.
So overall, the video indeed shows the condition in which the HR is now, with DoTs and procs everywhere, but any change needs to be extremely careful, or it might destroy the class completely.
That's all im saying. Maybe used to many words I guess. Just also inputing that theyre not the only classes capable of this...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Your intentions are good and you seem to genuinely desire balance.
So I'd say ignore the few HRs that are clinging desperately to the cheez in the class.
Is your video fully "legit"? Not really. The GWF is kinda meh and I think I can tank that damage better on my CW, and if I put Shield on Tab, there's no longer a question about this. Properly built GWFs are very tanky. Nobody uses RoS in PvP either. I assume you did it to proc Flurry.
These being said, HR does need damage, and Combat path that needs to be melee range needs to be able to tank, thorugh healing, deflect etc.
The real issue is that the damage is OVER TIME and will slowly eat you after it is applied, and there are many procs, part of them being Piercing.
So the real solution is to move the DoTs to Encounter damage, without taking away from the HR overall, but...
- the damage needs to respect DR/Dodges
- the damage needs to be AVOIDABLE. No more fire&forget. You either hit your target and do damage, or you miss and don't. Simple as that.
So overall, the video indeed shows the condition in which the HR is now, with DoTs and procs everywhere, but any change needs to be extremely careful, or it might destroy the class completely.
The gwf in the vid was destroyer, like most they go mainly dps but the guy still had pretty good defense too. Also yeah not many hr at all use Ros, i showed it to just show the base dmg. Hr can do good dmg with most abilities and i couldn't really think of the best way to show this properly. I would love a way to make it fair to the hr and to the class fighting them if the hr needed more skill to get this kind of dmg or the defending player could use skill to prevent it. At least fighting a cw you can dodge/ block his attacks but once a hr boar charges you thats it, the dots are on no matter what.
And i agree about changes needing to be careful, the kv change was a little rushed i thought and look what happend perma dailys everywhere so the hr if changed could become actually OP or weak and i would want neither.
Edit: I would also like to tests this against a less dps gwf and a gwf based on being tanky. I will try to find someone incewind when im on my hr next
It's a low end 12k HR pumping out insane damage who is equally as squishy to burst. I see no problem here. But the next 8k GS the HR gets can go STRAIGHT to defense if this "minimal" amount of damage is already enough to drop a 19k GWF.
That's 8k worth of GS transitioning from completely acceptable 'glass cannon' to 'tankzilla king of deflect' while maintaining this same damage output. Once you start needing more than 1 full rotation to take down an HR, you've lost. Wild Medicine is kicking in, Pots and Artifacts start popping, and the HR has enough mobility to stall any class (except maybe CW) long enough to take you down.
This damage is fine but needs to scale more off of offensive stats. Someone's who's pumping out this volume of passive damage shouldn't also be sitting at 50k HP with 60% deflect while healing 3% of their HP every sec.
Do you get the point that gearscore doesn't always mean more damage, right? Built right, a class can and will overcome gearscore gaps... I cant remember the thread name, but a CW posted a vid when mod4 came out about a 9k cw with no tenacity gear wrecking pvp!!! Wheres the complaint about that?
As far as without weapon enchants, they don't do any of the real damage. I cant believe that this far in the game, people still think they can only do great damage if they had weapon enchants on! The real things doing the damage are feats proccing. Like someone asked you, do this with a)the GWF fighting back, b)with combat logs.
P.S. Long before I even reached 12k on my CW(I also didn't use weapon enchants back then) I could accomplish 40k+ alone through a well timed EotS Ice Knife, Shard, Sudden Storm etc... It all depended on what abilities you ran, and your rotation...
If damage needs to be toned down, although they need slightly more than CW, tone it down all around. GWF procs, CW procs, HR procs, even SW procs claim more damage. And then people wonder why those are the top dps classes. Its not just the speed of their dps. Its their dps, and their feats proccing. Tell me, does a TR have a feat that procs 15% of a players health in addition to their hit? Does a DC? Does a GF?
Assailing was fixed awhile back. 9k Cws now do not wreck face in PvP. They may get lucky against people who don't know how to counter them, but the average 18-20k GS player who steps into pvp will have no problem with a 9k CW.
Also, if you are doping 40k damage in pvp with that rotation I will laugh at you. Because there is no chance of you landing that in the top tier against anything but bots.
But showing something without accepting variables is 1 sided, isn't it? Once again, no one denied the damage. But YOU refuse to understand the concept of fighting back, don't you? If someone's fighting back, you cant land as many hits, their dr can come into effect as well. If you showed a GWF going unstoppable, having his DR increased, and still did that much damage, then you can say something, cant you?
56k Ice knife on a Dummy. Congrats. You took that Dummy into Negative DR with HV, even more so if you were utilising Plague fire. Your video is pointless for the purposes of this discussion. I could post a screen shot of a 64k Ice Knife I got in PvP last week against a poor 8k Gs Pug player, but again, thats subjective and doesn't mean anything.
Plus there is always forest mediation too and if your fighting a player who dosnt know the hr class, they will strike you lots during this daily, making you heal even more.
No one uses this crappy daily anymore. It was only good in mod3 because of two conditions: 1. bugged profound set which procced like crazy when 2. your opponents were utterly bad because they attacked u while u popped that daily. I couldnt count the times when players were just attacking me like braindeads, with GPFs and biles, proccing the profound set.
Against good players it was not nearly as effective as against bad players.
You seem to not have a clue about the HR class and its powers and their uses in pvp. Ok, fine. Nobody can know everything, right? But please dont talk about stuff u dont understand. Wilds medicine for example is quite irrelevant in the current meta game. Yeah, good heals over time, but u can never reach even 6 stacks of it in pvp. And the bursts flying around everywhere make this feat just normal good and in no way overpowered.
The life steal is whats keep HRs alive in intense combat. A controlled HR is dead meat. HRs are not even close as tanky as in mod3, but they shine even more in 1vs1 because of their increased dmg. More dmg = more healz. The current structure of HR gameplay is very fragile because the class lives of the snyergies of many things.
Btw: at the beginning you said you take down many 18-19k gs players with your 12k HR. As soon as I offered u a challenge to beat my gwf with your "12k HR" your claims disapear (lol!) and you started to say something about "yeah, I just wanted to show dmg dot procs bla".
Put your money where your mouth is, or stop ur ridicolous claims u made at the beginning "12k hr can beat 19k gwf wtf lol nerf".
To offer this thread more than this biased madeup nonsense, what about a pure reduction of the piercing dmg in pvp? Instead of 40% only 20% on players? Because changing the dmg to be resisted normally u would have to increase the base dmg of HRs and that would hurt othet squishy classes and tanky one would benefit more against HRs.
what i meant to say is that a feat shouldn't give unresistable damage, thats a bit too unreasonable for any class, abilities and such are fine, but since its a feat its always unresistable damage and thats just too op, if its on an ability there is a cooldown, aswell as other abilities that can be used ect. being on a feat is just a stupid idea and i dont know how so many people are blind to that fact lol, they make assailiant resistable in pvp because of how much it was outpreforming everything, and now piercing blade is the same IF NOT WORSE then assailiant because there is no cooldown, and it procs of all melee damage.
what i meant to say is that a feat shouldn't give unresistable damage, thats a bit too unreasonable for any class, abilities and such are fine, but since its a feat its always unresistable damage and thats just too op, if its on an ability there is a cooldown, aswell as other abilities that can be used ect. being on a feat is just a stupid idea and i dont know how so many people are blind to that fact lol, they make assailiant resistable in pvp because of how much it was outpreforming everything, and now piercing blade is the same IF NOT WORSE then assailiant because there is no cooldown, and it procs of all melee damage.
IMO two things that should not be in the game -- "unmitigated" and "undodgeable".
Even if the developers could allow unmitigated damage in certain cases, the amount the HR benefits from is simply insanely large. I'd understand if PB proc was based on actual damage dealt, except it has now been proven it doesn't work like that. Based on initial damage before mitigation, and procs whether or not actually the power hits. This is simply folly. A proverbial bullchi*.
Damages coming from PB, from Careful Attack, unavoidable at all. Just guaranteed additional damage no matter how small the initial source is, and finally the Red Dragon Glyph. Another unmitigable, unavoidable damage on TOP of everything else.
Like people have mentioned, its not active damage. It's all passive. You deal one proc source and it does more than twice, thrice the original damage in the form of an automatic proc DoT.
If anything it screws with the risk-reward ratio.
As a general rule of thumb big, heavy attacks are slow and difficult to hit. or requires a very careful setup, very likely to miss. It's usually the risk you take when attempting large damage attacks in any game. The auto proccing damage HRs use? CA isn't even melee. It's 40' range. Any teeney tiny damage, even GPF DoTs proc it. Melee attacks? Don't even need to care about the attack being dodged. It's OK. It does almost half damage no matter what you do. Bad timing, plain screwed up attack, nothing matters. Target, push button, guaranteed 40% damage of initial value.
I'd rather see all that amount of HR damage simply moved over to direct archery attacks. At least those can be dodged, avoided, mitigated.
(ps) And to the idjit who still argues "bu...but... HRs aren't just ranged! We're also melees!" nonsense, in that case I'm sure you'll have no qualms if a miracle happens and the TRs receive ranged attacks that puts HRs to shame, or GF/GWFs throwing around 60~80' "Throw Weapon" power that easily out DPSs any ranged attack the HR could deal.
And when you find that to be unacceptable, let us laugh in your face and say, "bu..but.. who says melees can't do better damage with ranged powers than a real ranged class?" I'm sure you'll have no problems at all.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Assailing was fixed awhile back. 9k Cws now do not wreck face in PvP. They may get lucky against people who don't know how to counter them, but the average 18-20k GS player who steps into pvp will have no problem with a 9k CW.
Also, if you are doping 40k damage in pvp with that rotation I will laugh at you. Because there is no chance of you landing that in the top tier against anything but bots..
I was just bringing up certain similarities between what CWs can do THEN, which isn't that far removed from what they can still do NOW. Assailing Force was fixed, now its Piercing Blade's turn. No one here is saying that a power having unresistable damage is fine, in fact was going to agree with mikee on that one. But youre going on the offensive just cuz I posted about what CWs can also do. I was talking about a vid from post mod4 of a 9k CW with no tenacity gear wrecking in pvp. Theres enough CW nerf threads explaining why that was wrong, that you should've seen by now.
In return, an 18-20k gs player wont have a problem with a 9k ranger, now will they?
56k Ice knife on a Dummy. Congrats. You took that Dummy into Negative DR with HV, even more so if you were utilising Plague fire. Your video is pointless for the purposes of this discussion. I could post a screen shot of a 64k Ice Knife I got in PvP last week against a poor 8k Gs Pug player, but again, thats subjective and doesn't mean anything.
And you being offended because of a vid I posted is ALSO pointless for the discussion. I was showing crixus that similar situations can be recorded when the target doesn't fight back. Im sure I can find an old school vid of a CW 1 shotting in pvp back in the ol' beta days, or a TR doing that. But again, you ignoring the past and being subjective doesn't mean anything either.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
what i meant to say is that a feat shouldn't give unresistable damage, thats a bit too unreasonable for any class, abilities and such are fine, but since its a feat its always unresistable damage and thats just too op, if its on an ability there is a cooldown, aswell as other abilities that can be used ect. being on a feat is just a stupid idea and i dont know how so many people are blind to that fact lol, they make assailiant resistable in pvp because of how much it was outpreforming everything, and now piercing blade is the same IF NOT WORSE then assailiant because there is no cooldown, and it procs of all melee damage.
+1 agree to this.
Passives should NOT be a considerable portion of a classes' damage. Is it bad when people put on a weapon enchant just to proc a class feature, or a feat?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited September 2014
Somebody really should post some actual data on how much piecing damage does...
Because it does not do what all this voodoo talk says.
GWF's are squishy. If they don't fight back they die. Guess what, HR's are the exact same way...
You all talk about Wild Medicine with such fear...it does exactly nothing if you stand still. If I get frozen or entangled by control wizards I die just as fast as that GWF. I can skirmish for long periods of time. Just like a permastealth TR I can run in circles without attacking or potting and survive but once I am immobile I die.
So showing the survivability of an immobile non-retaliating GWF is about as helpful as showing off the surviviability of HR's being Icy Ray'ed to full HP on the Preview Shard.
Post some ACT's.
Then compare that to the damage output of other heavy damaging classes. While the HR damage is unmitigatable it is very small quantities and really only brings it on par with other damage dealing classes' final damage output. It's too bursty? Good, that's the intent. It's a burst skirmisher. Period. End of story.
The difference between HR piecing damage and CW's is the scaling. As an HR I have faced even highly defensive CW's that sometimes refused to take much damage. Fox Shift on the average CW will tear about half of their HP yet occasionally I'll Fox Shift on a tankier CW and do maybe 10% of their HP. It does not play anywhere near as huge of a role as players think. More or less the class is doing high burst, as intended, and the unmitigatable damage brings it up to a reasonable level.
The only way it can be taken away and not completely gimp the HR is to give at least a 500% bonus to their damage output if that damage is then mitigated because their melee damage is horrendously low.
The difference between HR piecing damage and CW's is the scaling. As an HR I have faced even highly defensive CW's that sometimes refused to take much damage. Fox Shift on the average CW will tear about half of their HP yet occasionally I'll Fox Shift on a tankier CW and do maybe 10% of their HP. It does not play anywhere near as huge of a role as players think.
You say its foolhardy to use a GWF not fighting back as a reference to show how HR damage is overboard. Then, you clearly state that "on the average tear half of their HP", and yet draw up conclusions the damage mechanics of HR is no problem based on certain "tanky CWs" you've faced, which I have a pretty good idea on just exactly what types you've met.
Ignore the 80~90% cases on average where a single application of a melee encounter rips up a CW to half HP.... and then go claim PB is no problems because in 10~20% of the cases you've met a premade-grade BiS CW with 50k HP.
Nice double standard.
More or less the class is doing high burst, as intended, and the unmitigatable damage brings it up to a reasonable level.
So a 5k damage coming through a special defense power which is supposed to grant immunity to all damage, or getting damaged even if you've dodged and successfully evaded the very origin/source power from which the effect procs... because it still procs anyway... that is "reasonable" to you?
It sure as heck doesn't sound to reasonable to me.
What I find "reasonable", would be when someone is immune to damage, then he should be immune to damage. When you have evaded a power totally, no proc relying on that power should manifest when the origin/source didn't even touch you. This is "reasonable", not this shi* you're defending.
But then again, the entire HR class was full of such shi* from the beginning. Such as a certain filthy root that grasps you even when the source power didn't even touch you. I know its not the individual HR player at fault for this, but just how long does the class need to rely on something that just ignore/forgoes basic combat rules of PvP?
The only way it can be taken away and not completely gimp the HR is to give at least a 500% bonus to their damage output if that damage is then mitigated because their melee damage is horrendously low.
Why not just ask for a free "I WIN" button?
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Somebody really should post some actual data on how much piecing damage does...
Because it does not do what all this voodoo talk says.
GWF's are squishy. If they don't fight back they die. Guess what, HR's are the exact same way...
You all talk about Wild Medicine with such fear...it does exactly nothing if you stand still. If I get frozen or entangled by control wizards I die just as fast as that GWF. I can skirmish for long periods of time. Just like a permastealth TR I can run in circles without attacking or potting and survive but once I am immobile I die.
So showing the survivability of an immobile non-retaliating GWF is about as helpful as showing off the surviviability of HR's being Icy Ray'ed to full HP on the Preview Shard.
Post some ACT's.
Then compare that to the damage output of other heavy damaging classes. While the HR damage is unmitigatable it is very small quantities and really only brings it on par with other damage dealing classes' final damage output. It's too bursty? Good, that's the intent. It's a burst skirmisher. Period. End of story.
The difference between HR piecing damage and CW's is the scaling. As an HR I have faced even highly defensive CW's that sometimes refused to take much damage. Fox Shift on the average CW will tear about half of their HP yet occasionally I'll Fox Shift on a tankier CW and do maybe 10% of their HP. It does not play anywhere near as huge of a role as players think. More or less the class is doing high burst, as intended, and the unmitigatable damage brings it up to a reasonable level.
The only way it can be taken away and not completely gimp the HR is to give at least a 500% bonus to their damage output if that damage is then mitigated because their melee damage is horrendously low.
What i would say is about the whole module 4 changes.
Some classes like gwfs and trs have to TIME and AIM or their DPS goes to waste.
On the other hand, we have this mix of UNAVOIDABLE and UNRESISTABLE damage with AUTO-LOCK mechanic. Now read the words in caps lock.
I would be happy to give more damage if it means every class will have to time and aim or they deal zero DPS. This game was different cause it was more action-oriented with combat. Gwf is like that now. You time and aim well, and if you make mistakes you get punished and deal zero DPS.
Warlocks need to AIM their ray of death. CWs need to keep a button pressed and take a nap while their DPS passively pops up.
Gwf/ TRs need to aim and time their encounters or they are dodged.
HRs have unresistable, passive and undodgeable damage GUARANTEED.
so i'd be more than happy to have every class deal higher but NON-GUARANTEED damage. Right now it's not like that. A gwf sprinter with ibs usually deals high DPS. To land it you have to actually time perfectly your encounters to stun the enemy. If you use Bf and takedown + IBS you need to time, AIM, and predict your enemy movements when fighting a CW, HR or TR. You do that, you're usually rewaded with high numbers. IF you do all that perfectly. And you're built/ geared correctly. And the enemy can still defend and deflect if built/ geared correctly. This is how the game should work.
I'm all for a system like that for all melee combat where you hit only if you AIM, time correctly and need to have the enemy in range (no more auto-gap closers melee attacks where your toon automatically blinks at the enemy and hit him).
And for a ranged combat like SW ray, where you AIM and follow the enemy movement or you deal deal zero DPS.
Then you can have encounters hitting as hard as ibs for all i care. And we would see how 'skilled' players are.
To me, right now, only gwf sprinter with Bf, takedown and ibs is true action combat, cause it's all about footwork, aiming and timing and anticipating the enemy movements. Only other class that come close in terms of skills required to be successful is TR cause it requires perfect timing on rotation, aim with df and footwork during stealth.
Most of the rest is little timing now and lots of passive stuff.
Mod 3 cws with shard also was a good example of action with high risk, high reward.
I'll be happy to see it applied to all the classes. But then all the 'skilled' players would cry cause it'll be really hard to play.
If you can: grab a gwf, go destroyer and slot bravery, Bf and takedown+ibs. Then go pvp and fight good permas. Or HRs or other gwfs. That is action, fun combat.
No one uses this crappy daily anymore. It was only good in mod3 because of two conditions: 1. bugged profound set which procced like crazy when 2. your opponents were utterly bad because they attacked u while u popped that daily. I couldnt count the times when players were just attacking me like braindeads, with GPFs and biles, proccing the profound set.
Against good players it was not nearly as effective as against bad players.
You seem to not have a clue about the HR class and its powers and their uses in pvp. Ok, fine. Nobody can know everything, right? But please dont talk about stuff u dont understand. Wilds medicine for example is quite irrelevant in the current meta game. Yeah, good heals over time, but u can never reach even 6 stacks of it in pvp. And the bursts flying around everywhere make this feat just normal good and in no way overpowered.
The life steal is whats keep HRs alive in intense combat. A controlled HR is dead meat. HRs are not even close as tanky as in mod3, but they shine even more in 1vs1 because of their increased dmg. More dmg = more healz. The current structure of HR gameplay is very fragile because the class lives of the snyergies of many things.
Btw: at the beginning you said you take down many 18-19k gs players with your 12k HR. As soon as I offered u a challenge to beat my gwf with your "12k HR" your claims disapear (lol!) and you started to say something about "yeah, I just wanted to show dmg dot procs bla".
Put your money where your mouth is, or stop ur ridicolous claims u made at the beginning "12k hr can beat 19k gwf wtf lol nerf".
To offer this thread more than this biased madeup nonsense, what about a pure reduction of the piercing dmg in pvp? Instead of 40% only 20% on players? Because changing the dmg to be resisted normally u would have to increase the base dmg of HRs and that would hurt othet squishy classes and tanky one would benefit more against HRs.
I didn't say i was a master lol. I posted this to show that hr dot dmg is high considering its easy to use and wanting a more skilled way to achieve the dmg, that's basically it.
I also did not say i could beat any 19k gwf, that's just pathetic, i have not met every gwf out there and some could 1 hit rotation me on my hr so i would never make such a claim. I have beaten many 19k players yes but have lost to some too. I was just saying that in no way should a 12k char beat a 19k char unless the 19k is very bad but that has not always been the case.
But ok, I don't know everything about hr class and I'm totally in the wrong so I can't share my opinion, my mistake -.-
On the other hand, we have this mix of UNAVOIDABLE and UNRESISTABLE damage with AUTO-LOCK mechanic. Now read the words in caps lock.
...
if you make mistakes you get punished and deal zero DPS.
Please go create and play a HR and then tell me about not having to aim or time attacks especially since you are complaining about the melee end of the spectrum.
Fox Shift is lost if you cast it and there's no target. This is our most effective source of damage and it is quite consistently lost due to people dodging or moving around. Even if the person is standing directly next to you if the reticule is more than, on my screen, an inch or two away the attack is lost.
Rain of Swords...the evidence of OP HR's in this thread...that is the easiest skill to ever dodge which is why I don't use it in PvP nor do I often see it used in PvP. It's hard to land it on mobs sometimes let alone on players who see you jump in the air.
Boar Rush? again dodgable. It's hard and involves predicting when the HR is going to use it but it is 100% dodgeable. It happens quite a bit.
Thorn Strike? Good grief this attack does very little damage even after the buff and is consistently avoided by any person who is not standing completely still due to it's very small target area.
Rapid Strike? Don't get me started on the rooting of this power. If you don't stand still you will have me working to land it.
Split Strike? This one is actually pretty rough to use even though you would figure the range of Rapid Strike would be effective. It's very common for somebody to walk out of range mid animation and thus avoid all damage.
We have many opportunities to miss in melee. Trying to say otherwise is just blatantly wrong and shows no experience playing as a melee HR.
It's not a double standard. The 10% is the unavoidable damage. The damage which can not be mitigated.
However by all means when CW's no lower tear through my HP in about the same speed I tear through theirs, sure then we can talk about reducing my damage. As it is I can not see any fault in killing most CW's in a single rotation when most CW's tear through me in a single rotation.
Why is it not an I win button?
Because when I do a basic attack and it doesn't crit it deals less than 1K Damage even with the 40% bonus damage.
If you want to reduce the unavoidable damage than make the damage competitive with the other classes. Right now as a melee HR damage is still on par with other classes with or without piecing damage. Instead of complaining that you see unavoidable damage do look at the amount of damage.
We are bursty. We rely on encounters like Fox Shift, but we do not have consistent damage and the piercing damage is what allows our damage to be bursty, unsustainable and still competitive.
Please go create and play a HR and then tell me about not having to aim or time attacks especially since you are complaining about the melee end of the spectrum.
Look at my signature.
I am leveling one HR.
And got a level 60 CW going to IWD and PvPing with it for a while.
And let me tell you. It's easy as hell. Even the "difficult" powers you mentioned, are easy mode compared to a destroyer sprinter, which is what i play now.
Boar rush is a auto gap-closer. And prones. Can be "dodged" but it's nowhere as hard to land as a takedown as opening move or a IBS.
AoE attacks are for the most part meant to work on mobs, not on players. Same i could say for mighty leap. These are AoE with no root on target, taking them as an example of something you need to use with accurate aiming is just silly.
Fox shift needs a target then you hit. And is it a huge difficulty in your opinion?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's completely skill-less gameplay. But very assisted? Yes.
But i understand that not playing a sprinter GWF it's hard to understand what i mean when i say that it would be better to have real action combat.
Most classes like CWs and HRs too, have powers that once you shoot them to the target, auto-lock and land. Can be dodged if the player shifts at the right time. But doing it with most of these moves is a mix of prediction and luck. So it's safe to say these powers are easier to land since the opponent can dodge a, say, boar rush only if they can predict AND get lucky.
On the other hand, if you try and play a GWF Destroyer with sprinter build, you'll see that landing takedown is not a simple "aim, shoot, profit". Cause it's a move that can be dodged by skill and timing, no luck. And can land by skill play only, at least on a decent PvPer.
No lock-on, no auto-gap closing. You close the gap by moving towards the enemy like a GWF does with sprint. Can have more shifts for gap closing on melee tree for that. Fair.
And when you reach the target, you do your move and that move can have a small follow up like takedown. So if you time it perfectly and get in the right range, it hits. If you don't, you miss 100%.
Just like takedown.
That is how melee combat should work. No automatic gap-closing, no lock-on-target.
And ranged combat should be the same. A CW ray of frost requires initial target, then locks on. Wrong. You shoot your ray, i move away, you've to follow me and keep hitting me.
Or stuff like shard, that is a good example.
I'd prefer more DPS BUT on powers like that, which require perfect timing, aiming and also anticipation of the enemy movements.
Would also decrease the insane burst damage we have now in PvP, and in a balanced way since everything would be up to the skills of the player.
However, if you can, try and PvP with a GWF destroyer using bravery, battle fury, takedown and IBS. That's what i mean for "action"
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Fox shift needs a target then you hit. And is it a huge difficulty in your opinion?
It's difficult because uniquely (AFAIK) among powers which require a target it give NO indication of when a target is in range. You can trigger Fox Shift at any time. Guessing when a target is in range is interesting when in the heat of battle, and if you guess wrong the attack is wasted. If you guess right but the target moves out of range before you hit the button then the attack is wasted.
I suggested this as a solution on one of the many, many other 'nerf HR plox' threads:
1. Increase base damage of HR blades.
2. Replace Wilds Medicine with a feat that increases deflect severity.
3. Replace PB with a feat that increases AP percent.
It's difficult because uniquely (AFAIK) among powers which require a target it give NO indication of when a target is in range. You can trigger Fox Shift at any time. Guessing when a target is in range is interesting when in the heat of battle, and if you guess wrong the attack is wasted. If you guess right but the target moves out of range before you hit the button then the attack is wasted.
It's a melee attack. Most of which can whiff completely.
Comments
The main reason i done this thread is to find balance some way. I will do it with any class that needs it, i have already made a thread and saying kv ap gain from allies shouldn't be happening and reflect on gf shouldn't work that well with glyphs. If i feel a class truly has a huge advantage over others then i will say my opinion and atm hr class dmg seems to be crazy and this would not bother me but it does for 2 reasons. 1. It only requires dot, no skill needed. 2. Hr i would say have best survivability in game if they go combat path. I just want balance, i dont think pvp will ever be full balanced but its worth a try
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And all im saying is that balance isn't in nerfing something so everyone else has an advantage but that class. HRs should've always been a striker class, yet I know for a fact that unless the CW is working with the HR, a CW will always outdamage an HR. They also have class features that are out of balance, and it bothers me for several reasons, the major one being that CW should've always been a controller/support class more than a striker class, not the other way around.
As far as KV ap gain, im also in those threads. GFs have a build that means 100% uptime SoS. I get that that shouldn't be happening. But taking their AP gain totally away is like saying to HRs "hey, youre a striker class, but you shouldn't be doing more damage than CWs" then people wonder why CWs are the more preferred class. Heck, the SW is a great dps class, but due to CWs being better in every other aspect, only dedicated SWs do consistently better than even middle ground(say, 12k) CWs. Is that fair?
Well i don't want nerfs man and never have. if something should be changed then it could be done in a good way. Like i said, i would prefer the hr to be able to deal good dmg but it to require some skill not just using dot. Not sure how it could be done but you get the point. As for cw i will have to test with them sometime and see how the changes are but that vid you posted looked crazy lol
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CWs really can post high damage too. It comes down to proccing feats for the 2 main dps classes(CW/HR/GWF). Look at their trees. All three have at least 1 brutal feat or class feat that procs OP damage right now. The HR(whether archer or combat) both get some amazing feats proccing for insane DoTs. I am not denying this. Im just saying that the weapon enchant wouldn't have mattered whether it was on or off, it was just another source for proccing. When it comes to all the classes currently, its all about attacking fast enough to let your "passive skills" do the damage for you. Storm Spell often hits around 9k on my 15.9k storm CW. That does more damage than Shard now! Since when did it become okay for a CW passive to outdamage one of its most complained about abilities?!
Your intentions are good and you seem to genuinely desire balance.
So I'd say ignore the few HRs that are clinging desperately to the cheez in the class.
Is your video fully "legit"? Not really. The GWF is kinda meh and I think I can tank that damage better on my CW, and if I put Shield on Tab, there's no longer a question about this. Properly built GWFs are very tanky. Nobody uses RoS in PvP either. I assume you did it to proc Flurry.
These being said, HR does need damage, and Combat path that needs to be melee range needs to be able to tank, thorugh healing, deflect etc.
The real issue is that the damage is OVER TIME and will slowly eat you after it is applied, and there are many procs, part of them being Piercing.
So the real solution is to move the DoTs to Encounter damage, without taking away from the HR overall, but...
- the damage needs to respect DR/Dodges
- the damage needs to be AVOIDABLE. No more fire&forget. You either hit your target and do damage, or you miss and don't. Simple as that.
So overall, the video indeed shows the condition in which the HR is now, with DoTs and procs everywhere, but any change needs to be extremely careful, or it might destroy the class completely.
That's all im saying. Maybe used to many words I guess. Just also inputing that theyre not the only classes capable of this...
The gwf in the vid was destroyer, like most they go mainly dps but the guy still had pretty good defense too. Also yeah not many hr at all use Ros, i showed it to just show the base dmg. Hr can do good dmg with most abilities and i couldn't really think of the best way to show this properly. I would love a way to make it fair to the hr and to the class fighting them if the hr needed more skill to get this kind of dmg or the defending player could use skill to prevent it. At least fighting a cw you can dodge/ block his attacks but once a hr boar charges you thats it, the dots are on no matter what.
And i agree about changes needing to be careful, the kv change was a little rushed i thought and look what happend
Edit: I would also like to tests this against a less dps gwf and a gwf based on being tanky. I will try to find someone incewind when im on my hr next
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CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
TRs too?.
That's 8k worth of GS transitioning from completely acceptable 'glass cannon' to 'tankzilla king of deflect' while maintaining this same damage output. Once you start needing more than 1 full rotation to take down an HR, you've lost. Wild Medicine is kicking in, Pots and Artifacts start popping, and the HR has enough mobility to stall any class (except maybe CW) long enough to take you down.
This damage is fine but needs to scale more off of offensive stats. Someone's who's pumping out this volume of passive damage shouldn't also be sitting at 50k HP with 60% deflect while healing 3% of their HP every sec.
Assailing was fixed awhile back. 9k Cws now do not wreck face in PvP. They may get lucky against people who don't know how to counter them, but the average 18-20k GS player who steps into pvp will have no problem with a 9k CW.
Also, if you are doping 40k damage in pvp with that rotation I will laugh at you. Because there is no chance of you landing that in the top tier against anything but bots.
56k Ice knife on a Dummy. Congrats. You took that Dummy into Negative DR with HV, even more so if you were utilising Plague fire. Your video is pointless for the purposes of this discussion. I could post a screen shot of a 64k Ice Knife I got in PvP last week against a poor 8k Gs Pug player, but again, thats subjective and doesn't mean anything.
+1 to mikee.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
No one uses this crappy daily anymore. It was only good in mod3 because of two conditions: 1. bugged profound set which procced like crazy when 2. your opponents were utterly bad because they attacked u while u popped that daily. I couldnt count the times when players were just attacking me like braindeads, with GPFs and biles, proccing the profound set.
Against good players it was not nearly as effective as against bad players.
You seem to not have a clue about the HR class and its powers and their uses in pvp. Ok, fine. Nobody can know everything, right? But please dont talk about stuff u dont understand. Wilds medicine for example is quite irrelevant in the current meta game. Yeah, good heals over time, but u can never reach even 6 stacks of it in pvp. And the bursts flying around everywhere make this feat just normal good and in no way overpowered.
The life steal is whats keep HRs alive in intense combat. A controlled HR is dead meat. HRs are not even close as tanky as in mod3, but they shine even more in 1vs1 because of their increased dmg. More dmg = more healz. The current structure of HR gameplay is very fragile because the class lives of the snyergies of many things.
Btw: at the beginning you said you take down many 18-19k gs players with your 12k HR. As soon as I offered u a challenge to beat my gwf with your "12k HR" your claims disapear (lol!) and you started to say something about "yeah, I just wanted to show dmg dot procs bla".
Put your money where your mouth is, or stop ur ridicolous claims u made at the beginning "12k hr can beat 19k gwf wtf lol nerf".
To offer this thread more than this biased madeup nonsense, what about a pure reduction of the piercing dmg in pvp? Instead of 40% only 20% on players? Because changing the dmg to be resisted normally u would have to increase the base dmg of HRs and that would hurt othet squishy classes and tanky one would benefit more against HRs.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
I see no reason why TRs should be exempt from it.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
IMO two things that should not be in the game -- "unmitigated" and "undodgeable".
Even if the developers could allow unmitigated damage in certain cases, the amount the HR benefits from is simply insanely large. I'd understand if PB proc was based on actual damage dealt, except it has now been proven it doesn't work like that. Based on initial damage before mitigation, and procs whether or not actually the power hits. This is simply folly. A proverbial bullchi*.
Damages coming from PB, from Careful Attack, unavoidable at all. Just guaranteed additional damage no matter how small the initial source is, and finally the Red Dragon Glyph. Another unmitigable, unavoidable damage on TOP of everything else.
Like people have mentioned, its not active damage. It's all passive. You deal one proc source and it does more than twice, thrice the original damage in the form of an automatic proc DoT.
If anything it screws with the risk-reward ratio.
As a general rule of thumb big, heavy attacks are slow and difficult to hit. or requires a very careful setup, very likely to miss. It's usually the risk you take when attempting large damage attacks in any game. The auto proccing damage HRs use? CA isn't even melee. It's 40' range. Any teeney tiny damage, even GPF DoTs proc it. Melee attacks? Don't even need to care about the attack being dodged. It's OK. It does almost half damage no matter what you do. Bad timing, plain screwed up attack, nothing matters. Target, push button, guaranteed 40% damage of initial value.
I'd rather see all that amount of HR damage simply moved over to direct archery attacks. At least those can be dodged, avoided, mitigated.
(ps) And to the idjit who still argues "bu...but... HRs aren't just ranged! We're also melees!" nonsense, in that case I'm sure you'll have no qualms if a miracle happens and the TRs receive ranged attacks that puts HRs to shame, or GF/GWFs throwing around 60~80' "Throw Weapon" power that easily out DPSs any ranged attack the HR could deal.
And when you find that to be unacceptable, let us laugh in your face and say, "bu..but.. who says melees can't do better damage with ranged powers than a real ranged class?" I'm sure you'll have no problems at all.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I was just bringing up certain similarities between what CWs can do THEN, which isn't that far removed from what they can still do NOW. Assailing Force was fixed, now its Piercing Blade's turn. No one here is saying that a power having unresistable damage is fine, in fact was going to agree with mikee on that one. But youre going on the offensive just cuz I posted about what CWs can also do. I was talking about a vid from post mod4 of a 9k CW with no tenacity gear wrecking in pvp. Theres enough CW nerf threads explaining why that was wrong, that you should've seen by now.
In return, an 18-20k gs player wont have a problem with a 9k ranger, now will they?
And you being offended because of a vid I posted is ALSO pointless for the discussion. I was showing crixus that similar situations can be recorded when the target doesn't fight back. Im sure I can find an old school vid of a CW 1 shotting in pvp back in the ol' beta days, or a TR doing that. But again, you ignoring the past and being subjective doesn't mean anything either.
+1 agree to this.
Passives should NOT be a considerable portion of a classes' damage. Is it bad when people put on a weapon enchant just to proc a class feature, or a feat?
Because it does not do what all this voodoo talk says.
GWF's are squishy. If they don't fight back they die. Guess what, HR's are the exact same way...
You all talk about Wild Medicine with such fear...it does exactly nothing if you stand still. If I get frozen or entangled by control wizards I die just as fast as that GWF. I can skirmish for long periods of time. Just like a permastealth TR I can run in circles without attacking or potting and survive but once I am immobile I die.
So showing the survivability of an immobile non-retaliating GWF is about as helpful as showing off the surviviability of HR's being Icy Ray'ed to full HP on the Preview Shard.
Post some ACT's.
Then compare that to the damage output of other heavy damaging classes. While the HR damage is unmitigatable it is very small quantities and really only brings it on par with other damage dealing classes' final damage output. It's too bursty? Good, that's the intent. It's a burst skirmisher. Period. End of story.
The difference between HR piecing damage and CW's is the scaling. As an HR I have faced even highly defensive CW's that sometimes refused to take much damage. Fox Shift on the average CW will tear about half of their HP yet occasionally I'll Fox Shift on a tankier CW and do maybe 10% of their HP. It does not play anywhere near as huge of a role as players think. More or less the class is doing high burst, as intended, and the unmitigatable damage brings it up to a reasonable level.
The only way it can be taken away and not completely gimp the HR is to give at least a 500% bonus to their damage output if that damage is then mitigated because their melee damage is horrendously low.
You say its foolhardy to use a GWF not fighting back as a reference to show how HR damage is overboard. Then, you clearly state that "on the average tear half of their HP", and yet draw up conclusions the damage mechanics of HR is no problem based on certain "tanky CWs" you've faced, which I have a pretty good idea on just exactly what types you've met.
Ignore the 80~90% cases on average where a single application of a melee encounter rips up a CW to half HP.... and then go claim PB is no problems because in 10~20% of the cases you've met a premade-grade BiS CW with 50k HP.
Nice double standard.
So a 5k damage coming through a special defense power which is supposed to grant immunity to all damage, or getting damaged even if you've dodged and successfully evaded the very origin/source power from which the effect procs... because it still procs anyway... that is "reasonable" to you?
It sure as heck doesn't sound to reasonable to me.
What I find "reasonable", would be when someone is immune to damage, then he should be immune to damage. When you have evaded a power totally, no proc relying on that power should manifest when the origin/source didn't even touch you. This is "reasonable", not this shi* you're defending.
But then again, the entire HR class was full of such shi* from the beginning. Such as a certain filthy root that grasps you even when the source power didn't even touch you. I know its not the individual HR player at fault for this, but just how long does the class need to rely on something that just ignore/forgoes basic combat rules of PvP?
Why not just ask for a free "I WIN" button?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
What i would say is about the whole module 4 changes.
Some classes like gwfs and trs have to TIME and AIM or their DPS goes to waste.
On the other hand, we have this mix of UNAVOIDABLE and UNRESISTABLE damage with AUTO-LOCK mechanic. Now read the words in caps lock.
I would be happy to give more damage if it means every class will have to time and aim or they deal zero DPS. This game was different cause it was more action-oriented with combat. Gwf is like that now. You time and aim well, and if you make mistakes you get punished and deal zero DPS.
Warlocks need to AIM their ray of death. CWs need to keep a button pressed and take a nap while their DPS passively pops up.
Gwf/ TRs need to aim and time their encounters or they are dodged.
HRs have unresistable, passive and undodgeable damage GUARANTEED.
so i'd be more than happy to have every class deal higher but NON-GUARANTEED damage. Right now it's not like that. A gwf sprinter with ibs usually deals high DPS. To land it you have to actually time perfectly your encounters to stun the enemy. If you use Bf and takedown + IBS you need to time, AIM, and predict your enemy movements when fighting a CW, HR or TR. You do that, you're usually rewaded with high numbers. IF you do all that perfectly. And you're built/ geared correctly. And the enemy can still defend and deflect if built/ geared correctly. This is how the game should work.
I'm all for a system like that for all melee combat where you hit only if you AIM, time correctly and need to have the enemy in range (no more auto-gap closers melee attacks where your toon automatically blinks at the enemy and hit him).
And for a ranged combat like SW ray, where you AIM and follow the enemy movement or you deal deal zero DPS.
Then you can have encounters hitting as hard as ibs for all i care. And we would see how 'skilled' players are.
To me, right now, only gwf sprinter with Bf, takedown and ibs is true action combat, cause it's all about footwork, aiming and timing and anticipating the enemy movements. Only other class that come close in terms of skills required to be successful is TR cause it requires perfect timing on rotation, aim with df and footwork during stealth.
Most of the rest is little timing now and lots of passive stuff.
Mod 3 cws with shard also was a good example of action with high risk, high reward.
I'll be happy to see it applied to all the classes. But then all the 'skilled' players would cry cause it'll be really hard to play.
If you can: grab a gwf, go destroyer and slot bravery, Bf and takedown+ibs. Then go pvp and fight good permas. Or HRs or other gwfs. That is action, fun combat.
I didn't say i was a master lol. I posted this to show that hr dot dmg is high considering its easy to use and wanting a more skilled way to achieve the dmg, that's basically it.
I also did not say i could beat any 19k gwf, that's just pathetic, i have not met every gwf out there and some could 1 hit rotation me on my hr so i would never make such a claim. I have beaten many 19k players yes but have lost to some too. I was just saying that in no way should a 12k char beat a 19k char unless the 19k is very bad but that has not always been the case.
But ok, I don't know everything about hr class and I'm totally in the wrong so I can't share my opinion, my mistake -.-
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Please go create and play a HR and then tell me about not having to aim or time attacks especially since you are complaining about the melee end of the spectrum.
Fox Shift is lost if you cast it and there's no target. This is our most effective source of damage and it is quite consistently lost due to people dodging or moving around. Even if the person is standing directly next to you if the reticule is more than, on my screen, an inch or two away the attack is lost.
Rain of Swords...the evidence of OP HR's in this thread...that is the easiest skill to ever dodge which is why I don't use it in PvP nor do I often see it used in PvP. It's hard to land it on mobs sometimes let alone on players who see you jump in the air.
Boar Rush? again dodgable. It's hard and involves predicting when the HR is going to use it but it is 100% dodgeable. It happens quite a bit.
Thorn Strike? Good grief this attack does very little damage even after the buff and is consistently avoided by any person who is not standing completely still due to it's very small target area.
Rapid Strike? Don't get me started on the rooting of this power. If you don't stand still you will have me working to land it.
Split Strike? This one is actually pretty rough to use even though you would figure the range of Rapid Strike would be effective. It's very common for somebody to walk out of range mid animation and thus avoid all damage.
We have many opportunities to miss in melee. Trying to say otherwise is just blatantly wrong and shows no experience playing as a melee HR.
It's not a double standard. The 10% is the unavoidable damage. The damage which can not be mitigated.
However by all means when CW's no lower tear through my HP in about the same speed I tear through theirs, sure then we can talk about reducing my damage. As it is I can not see any fault in killing most CW's in a single rotation when most CW's tear through me in a single rotation.
Why is it not an I win button?
Because when I do a basic attack and it doesn't crit it deals less than 1K Damage even with the 40% bonus damage.
If you want to reduce the unavoidable damage than make the damage competitive with the other classes. Right now as a melee HR damage is still on par with other classes with or without piecing damage. Instead of complaining that you see unavoidable damage do look at the amount of damage.
We are bursty. We rely on encounters like Fox Shift, but we do not have consistent damage and the piercing damage is what allows our damage to be bursty, unsustainable and still competitive.
http://i.imgur.com/rv5HjEL.png (please remove link if it's not allowed)
My hr has 13k gs with Thayan Zealot bow, uncrafted BI axe and a GPF . I was also lucky to crit on aimed strike and rain of swords.
Rotation used - Careful attack > Ambush > Aimed Strike > Rain of Swords. 103997 total damage from a single rotation on dummy.
Look at my signature.
I am leveling one HR.
And got a level 60 CW going to IWD and PvPing with it for a while.
And let me tell you. It's easy as hell. Even the "difficult" powers you mentioned, are easy mode compared to a destroyer sprinter, which is what i play now.
Boar rush is a auto gap-closer. And prones. Can be "dodged" but it's nowhere as hard to land as a takedown as opening move or a IBS.
AoE attacks are for the most part meant to work on mobs, not on players. Same i could say for mighty leap. These are AoE with no root on target, taking them as an example of something you need to use with accurate aiming is just silly.
Fox shift needs a target then you hit. And is it a huge difficulty in your opinion?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's completely skill-less gameplay. But very assisted? Yes.
But i understand that not playing a sprinter GWF it's hard to understand what i mean when i say that it would be better to have real action combat.
Most classes like CWs and HRs too, have powers that once you shoot them to the target, auto-lock and land. Can be dodged if the player shifts at the right time. But doing it with most of these moves is a mix of prediction and luck. So it's safe to say these powers are easier to land since the opponent can dodge a, say, boar rush only if they can predict AND get lucky.
On the other hand, if you try and play a GWF Destroyer with sprinter build, you'll see that landing takedown is not a simple "aim, shoot, profit". Cause it's a move that can be dodged by skill and timing, no luck. And can land by skill play only, at least on a decent PvPer.
No lock-on, no auto-gap closing. You close the gap by moving towards the enemy like a GWF does with sprint. Can have more shifts for gap closing on melee tree for that. Fair.
And when you reach the target, you do your move and that move can have a small follow up like takedown. So if you time it perfectly and get in the right range, it hits. If you don't, you miss 100%.
Just like takedown.
That is how melee combat should work. No automatic gap-closing, no lock-on-target.
And ranged combat should be the same. A CW ray of frost requires initial target, then locks on. Wrong. You shoot your ray, i move away, you've to follow me and keep hitting me.
Or stuff like shard, that is a good example.
I'd prefer more DPS BUT on powers like that, which require perfect timing, aiming and also anticipation of the enemy movements.
Would also decrease the insane burst damage we have now in PvP, and in a balanced way since everything would be up to the skills of the player.
However, if you can, try and PvP with a GWF destroyer using bravery, battle fury, takedown and IBS. That's what i mean for "action"
Blade Hurricane did most of the damage, as I said due to Rain of Swords proc'ing flurry once per second.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
1. Increase base damage of HR blades.
2. Replace Wilds Medicine with a feat that increases deflect severity.
3. Replace PB with a feat that increases AP percent.
Problem solved.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
It's a melee attack. Most of which can whiff completely.
Takedown
IBS
Dazing Strike
Lashing Blade
Griffon's Wrath
Knee Breaker
Although with an ugpraded 20' Conal Range it's probably closest to:
Roar
And maybe if we give it some shiny ground lights:
Frontline Surge