HR Powers are NOT easy to land. Certainly not easier than CW powers.
Saying it is easy to land in PvP is completely and utterly wrong. And seriously if you want to say it's hard to land something in PvP comparably please use a better example than the kings of CC. If you are saying it's okay for Control Wizards to have insane damage because it's hard to hit then you are completely ignoring powers like Entangling Force.
It's easier to land Entangling Force than Boar Rush
(Equally hard to dodge and ranged has an advantage)
Additionally Boar Rush's knockdown lasts about .5-1 second and have time for ONE attack. Entangling Force lasts at least two in which the CW can cast at least two more powers (likely extending the CC).
Saying the hard to land powers on an HR is easy to land because of Boar Rush while saying CW's have a harder time landing powers is just...wrong. Sorry it is outright wrong.
Please stop posting that. It's so biased in every way it is violating the nerf request rule. I've been lenient with this thread but be realistic please. Asking for nerfs based on hyperbolic biased opinions is wrong and against the rules.
As a person that plays both classes...
- both CW and HR CCs are remarkably easy to land, if the target is CCable. If the target is a permasprinty GWF or permaTR etc, HR is at great advantage vs a CW simply cause it can outheal the damage
- it's NOT OK for either CW or HR to have so much damage - from unavoidable procs, such as Storm Spell/Piercing/Flurry. Thing is, HR will still have great damage against a BiS Senti GWF for example, or GF, while CW will have serious issues against these noCC/very tanky opponents.
- Entangle is almost impossible to land without a preCC, such as Freeze or Icy Rays, if the opponent sees you. Boar Charge is easier to land because it's very fast, but you can definitely still fail it, so good HRs open with Disruptive, which means no dodges after.
- the prone from Boar last like a normal prone, and the victim cannot deflect; Entangle lasts for an extremely short period. The extended Entangles you seen were from the CW class feat Orb of Imposition, which is kinda cheesy.
That's about as realistic one can get about these two classes.
My conclusion is that CW and HR land their stuff pretty dang easy, through Point and Click.
I say bring back Shard, which requires AIMING and full combo, and make most of the powers work like Frontline Surge - which requires AIMING and TIMING as well.
- both CW and HR CCs are remarkably easy to land, if the target is CCable. If the target is a permasprinty GWF or permaTR etc, HR is at great advantage vs a CW simply cause it can outheal the damage
- it's NOT OK for either CW or HR to have so much damage - from unavoidable procs, such as Storm Spell/Piercing/Flurry. Thing is, HR will still have great damage against a BiS Senti GWF for example, or GF, while CW will have serious issues against these noCC/very tanky opponents.
- Entangle is almost impossible to land without a preCC, such as Freeze or Icy Rays, if the opponent sees you. Boar Charge is easier to land because it's very fast, but you can definitely still fail it, so good HRs open with Disruptive, which means no dodges after.
- the prone from Boar last like a normal prone, and the victim cannot deflect; Entangle lasts for an extremely short period. The extended Entangles you seen were from the CW class feat Orb of Imposition, which is kinda cheesy.
That's about as realistic one can get about these two classes.
My conclusion is that CW and HR land their stuff pretty dang easy, through Point and Click.
I say bring back Shard, which requires AIMING and full combo, and make most of the powers work like Frontline Surge - which requires AIMING and TIMING as well.
Well put...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Point and click is hard? Almost every HR ability is a targeted nuke with zero cast time. CW also uses PnC, but due to much longer casting times you can easily avoid them via dodging.
Are HR powers hard to land? No. Are they hard to hit with? No, but it's a matter of skill. If 5 people say it's easy and 1 says it's hard, well...
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I say bring back Shard, which requires AIMING and full combo, and make most of the powers work like Frontline Surge - which requires AIMING and TIMING as well.
This is almost a daily discussion in my guild. Some classes have it too easy, and have been reduced to Point and Click and Proc. To make things worse, there's also this unavoidable Piercing stuff or Storm Spell huge procs (especially on squishies).
In contrast, the GWF now has, once every 17 secs or so, a chance to land a combo. They have a good nuke (unless it get deflected...), but you cannot realistically land it without good CC. One CC is usually not even enough, and you have to chain another stun with Takedown.
I mean, there isn't a huge amount of skill involved with 3 buttons to press, but at least it's something, and you pay the price if you miss.
This is an example of good design at the moment, no free damage, no more Threatening Rush spam, no more 99% guaranteed rotation every Roar/8 secs, no more Deep Gash extravaganza.
It is mind boggling that after all these months in which they should have learned from fixing and finally balancing the GWF, they screw up other classes now and give them the ezy mode tools they took from GWF.
It is an Action MMO, the Point&Click moves with huge burst need to go. Same with others guaranteed forms of damage.
I speced my Halfing as a mostly Combat Pathfinder, and although the Melee powers do a lot less damage than Archery, they are much faster to cast and do a lot more DoT against the Training Dummies. I think the Cool Down is longer, though.
I don't know how this will work out in PvP, as she has no enchants and no Epic Gear, but I'll try it out in the Skirmish of Neverwinter.
Getting too close to the Dragon will probably be a disaster, if my Wood Elf Archery Stormwarden with similar Gear is anything to go by.
Try using Disruptive Shot or Forest Ghost, then follow up with Boar and Fox.
Second, you need to take into consideration that the casting time of HR powers is short enough to take advantage of vulnerability windows that powers with long casting times like Entangling Force isn't.
You are wrong.
First - Only really inexperienced people in pvp don't know now what to do with Forest ghost.
Second - all 3 - Forest, Boar, Rain have 1 sec of freeze at the end of animation. Does not require it to be successful - you missed you have 1 freeze.
3rd - Forest and Disruptive are both dailies. So to trigger both you need at least 75% of AP.
4th - only face-roller does trigger Disruptive , forest, boar and fox. Yeah these powers plus mara are only powers HR still have. Not enough nerf by you? So give HR other 5 usable.
5th - vulnerability windows are 1 sec max by boars top. Disruptive work on players for 0.5 sec. After boars we do can land only 1 attack.
Usually it is a dot but aimed strike takes more time to place then accual boars stun.
So looks for me you just don't know anything about how HR do play. ambisinisterr is really right here - all this thread is just to whine about HRs. again. Go play one first. I do want to see how you will be able to place 20k damage in pvp with 15k GS combat HR in one hit.
HR powers arent easier to land than powers of other classes.
Frontline, take down, threating rush, cloud of steel, shadow strike, bulls charge, icy rays, entangl force and so on.
The claims in this thread are getting ridicolous. It seems this threads gathers all people who ever wanted to say something about HRs, no matter what nonsense it is. Whats next? HRs shouldnt ride mounts because its animal slavery?
Some issues of HRs dmg and PB should be worked on. For example pb dmg should not aply if the power that triggers it is dodged. But it should ignore resistances, but not immunities. So it should ignore a GFs shield, but not the immunity of their class feature after popping a daily.
Thats an actual issues worth looking into. Not that pathetic biased <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> flying around in this thread. Rain of swords in pvp… still loling...
If I switch my combat HR to pve gear, I have over 22k gs, over 11k power. And I dont even do half the dmg a cw or sw does in normal T2 dungeons. Bringing pve powers on the table will not help the Hr nerf crowd for their arguments.
You could only say that thing to prove you have no idea what are you talking about. Every RoS dot tick triggers flurry which leads to crazy careful attack or aimed strike triple ticks, and each of them applies PB and glyphs.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
You could only say that thing to prove you have no idea what are you talking about. Every RoS dot tick triggers flurry which leads to crazy careful attack or aimed strike triple ticks, and each of them applies PB and glyphs.
Sorry, I dont have low gs pug games in mind where nobody is aware of the other classes powers and just running around like chickens. Good luck trying rain of swords against serious opponents. Not to mention about rain of arrows… oh lol.
Thats skill is SO easy to counter, i am still laughing about people really considering it to be useful in pvp.
Still waiting with my 19k gwf to be beaten by a 12k hr what was claimed in the beginning of the thread. And I am also waiting for the HR using rain of swords while I use maraudeurs, which has 1000 times more utility.
Oh, and without glyphs, rain of swords is even crappier.
You know, I am not a so called forum warrior. I am out there on daily basis fighting with and against the best and most geared players in premades AND pug matches. Maybe some people here should actually start playing seriously before making assumptions.
I am always open for testing and learning, so feel free to pm me and how u beat me with rain of swords and a 12k HR. Otherwise, maybe stop talking ****.
Sorry, I dont have low gs pug games in mind where nobody is aware of the other classes powers and just running around like chickens. Good luck trying rain of swords against serious opponents.
Still waiting with my 19k gwf to be beaten by a 12k hr what was claimed in the beginning of the thread.
1. What any hr would do is, boar charge....rain of swords....activates all red glyphs and does very high dmg. It's easy to land on any player.
2. The thread is titled "12k HR 1 hit rotation against 19k GWF" because I was showing the dps that a hr can do with just 3 powers/ dot dmg. Not 12k hr 1v1s and beats 19kgwf.
Sorry, I dont have low gs pug games in mind where nobody is aware of the other classes powers and just running around like chickens. Good luck trying rain of swords against serious opponents. Not to mention about rain of arrows… oh lol.
Thats skill is SO easy to counter, i am still laughing about people really considering it to be useful in pvp.
Still waiting with my 19k gwf to be beaten by a 12k hr what was claimed in the beginning of the thread. And I am also waiting for the HR using rain of swords while I use maraudeurs, which has 1000 times more utility.
Oh, and without glyphs, rain of swords is even crappier.
You know, I am not a so called forum warrior. I am out there on daily basis fighting with and against the best and most geared players in premades AND pug matches. Maybe some people here should actually start playing seriously before making assumptions.
I am always open for testing and learning, so feel free to pm me and how u beat me with rain of swords and a 12k HR. Otherwise, maybe stop talking ****.
Figured as much.
Another elitist who bases opinions on what... 1%? Less than 1%? ... of the people which easily exceeds any definition of normalcy or average incidence. All of the what you can do within your small, tiny little circle of "elite players" or "premade-level" or "higher playing ground" or whatever term you wish to describe your lil' tea party, simply doesn't matter.
Heck, I bet keltz0r or dinter level TRs still beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of most BiS level competition they face, and what, us TRs are supposed to figure just where we stand in mod4 based upon two of the game's rarest, and most incredible players? Shall I use some of the best HRs as a reference, and quote how they have no problems in facing the CWs, and claim CWs don't need to be toned down?
The very fact you so proudly spend time "out there on daily basis fighting with and against the best and most geared players in premades AND pug matches" simply means how narrow your scope of vision is. So you spend your entire time in that small, exclusive club, secluded from what goes on in the rest of the world.
Try getting out of it some time, because when it comes to "balance", like it or not the 'normal' and 'average' players take incidience -- not your small little exclusive club of "the best and most geared". You're an anomally trying to comment on normalcy.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The FOTM rotation at the moment is Marauders, Fox, Boar. Replacing any of these skills is a pretty serious nerf to the HR's capabilities. No top HR will ever use RoA/RoS outside trying to troll pugs, so Small Bow is correct here.
You cannot really replace Marauders, as it allows you to "dodge" Icy Rays which is HR's worst enemy, but also close gaps and open up for Boar Charge.
You cannot replace Fox, as it's a free team dodge and our only nuke.
You cannot replace Boar, as it's another buff and it's an essential part of HR combos. In a game against good PvPers, you WON'T land Shifts on them without CCing them first.
I tested RoS and it's quite cool at triggering flurry periodically, somehow. I use RoA and RoS, for PvE. I would never bother using them in PvP.
However, the topic subject still stays... even though the execution is a bit flawed.
But you people should be VERY careful on what you ask for, because the Combat HR needs to be tanky, and this means Deflect/Healing for now, and it needs to dish very good melee damage.
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at.
The FOTM rotation at the moment is Marauders, Fox, Boar. Replacing any of these skills is a pretty serious nerf to the HR's capabilities. No top HR will ever use RoA/RoS outside trying to troll pugs, so Small Bow is correct here.
You cannot really replace Marauders, as it allows you to "dodge" Icy Rays which is HR's worst enemy, but also close gaps and open up for Boar Charge.
You cannot replace Fox, as it's a free team dodge and our only nuke.
You cannot replace Boar, as it's another buff and it's an essential part of HR combos. In a game against good PvPers, you WON'T land Shifts on them without CCing them first.
I tested RoS and it's quite cool at triggering flurry periodically, somehow. I use RoA and RoS, for PvE. I would never bother using them in PvP.
However, the topic subject still stays... even though the execution is a bit flawed.
But you people should be VERY careful on what you ask for, because the Combat HR needs to be tanky, and this means Deflect/Healing for now, and it needs to dish very good melee damage.
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at.
I agree. I fight top pvp hr players all the time and maybe 5% use ROS. I do see many of them using thorn ward though. But I wasn't saying its good to use or the best just that its easy to land, because any power is when the enemy is flat on there face.
I also just used it in the vid to show the DOT dmg. Showing how much a weak hr can do by just standing there. If I had the time to gear my hr up to the same as my gf I could have shown a 1v1 ir a pvp vid and then really shown it more involved and at full effectiveness but I just don't have the time to gear any other chars sorry.
"
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at."
Couldn't agree with this more and it's the point why I made this post and hopefully right. Hr is a striker class and should have high dps, they should be a class in pvp that you need to take out first because you don't want to be killed fast but them having so much dps on dot isn't fair I think and to get high numbers should require skill.
Nope. Ambisinisterr was trying to say HR cc is difficult to land. It isn't. One Disruptive Shot for 25% AP leads to the opponent being dazed and unable to dodge the Boar Charge which follows, followed by a Fox Shift for some good burst. Extremely easy. Yes, but Disruptive costs action points? So what? HRs get AP like candy, their AP generation being second only to GFs; a power that costs 25% AP is practically another encounter power.
On top of that, good HRs will use the Royal Guard PvE set to get ridiculously low cooldowns for lots of spammy goodness, and cheesy HRs will have glyphs for megadamage with their nice little dots.
Ok. I agree with you on this. You pretty much wrote correct workflow for HR. Problem is that the only one good damage power with those is Fox. Also as you see most of them require to be close to target. At the same time it is very easy away from boars. Just dodge or move a little. So Ambisinisterr is right too. Disruptive is not really hard to put but it has cooldown as daily! That is what I mean by they are dailies. So even if you have enough AP that does not mean you have Disruptive available.
Plus all of this is single target. Yes HR with good gear can survive CWs rotation. sometimes even survive knife. But As long as you fight not alone like Rembo you are good- cause add 30% of damage to HR - he is dead.
Same thing goes about 1 vs 1 against GF. IF gf will be too defensive - HR will kill him. If it is smart GF - he will kill HR in one rotation without chance to regen or get hit.
As for me all of this is pretty much 1 vs 1 - as long as equal OP CW and GF exist like they are now - HR are at right spot in 1 vs 1 fights. Maybe all rembo CW should really try to fight in team rather then call for nerf ?
Piercing as it is now is not the best implementation. Like balance from cryptic. But what else you are supposed to do with over -defencive GF with glypth ? You can not hurt him, his shield blocks pretty much everything - just try to fight as archer againts GF, and glypth will kill you.
My final on this - as long as there is kinda OP balance between CW GF and HR piercing should stay as it is. To fix piercing you need to fix Unmitigated damage and make "defence' as it is in D&D rather then <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that we have now. IMHO
But you people should be VERY careful on what you ask for, because the Combat HR needs to be tanky, and this means Deflect/Healing for now, and it needs to dish very good melee damage.
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at.
Applause on this. Exactly what we asked, exactly what I wish we had. Mod 3 HR were really better in meaning of skill requirements. Just needed a bit more tanky, bigger base damage for off hand that is our main, and twicks for melee power. Still miss reduction of range cool-downs from melee attacks.
dinter ,sicarius,crollax best trs in the game dont last 10 sec against bis hr if they decide to fight
fight goes like this :u land df they land that rush u prone gone to soul, revive, dead again.
i watch a dev with bis gwf 1v1 rank 9 hr it was over in 20 sec hr won with full hp
gwf couldnt last 2 rotations
fight was on domination when one team quit
hr dmg is insane to say the least ,cw is strong but doesnt come close
and just to say hr mod 3 was way more balanced ,they were tanky but low dmg ,now they one shot people
its normal to see 30 -40 kills hr in pug if the other team dont quit in first min
Same thing goes about 1 vs 1 against GF. IF gf will be too defensive - HR will kill him. If it is smart GF - he will kill HR in one rotation without chance to regen or get hit.
I agree with you on a lot i will just say though that a gf vs hr, the hr does have the advantage if they are both equals. I mean equal skill and gear, the hr class is a bit better than gf in 1v1. I was on test shard for weeks with other high end pvp gf players and we was testing with pvp hr players and have been since mod 4 and the gf loses about 70% of the time. The one thing a gf can do is get lucky with a 1 hit rotation( by luck i mean, mostly crit hits and the hr not deflecting much or at all) or if the hr doesn't regen in time for the second rotation. A good hr in pvp with have 50% + deflect chance and 35 - 40k + hp the only way a gf can kill that in 1 rotation is with luck because if the hr deflects they mitigate the duration of our stuns and they break free, able to regen.
Basically, M3 HR was balanced. It was tanky, but didn't deal much damage. I'd prefer M3 HR that can survive 3 players over M4 HR that just kills them in a few seconds.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
Basically, M3 HR was balanced. It was tanky, but didn't deal much damage. I'd prefer M3 HR that can survive 3 players over M4 HR that just kills them in a few seconds.
Yeah mod 3 hr was almost unkillable but couldn't do all the insane dot dmg, I would also prefer that. PVP is becoming about JUST dps, some skill and strategy should still remain but all classes keep getting dps buffs and now with glyphs it's who has the most dps wins.
Yeah mod 3 hr was almost unkillable but couldn't do all the insane dot dmg, I would also prefer that. PVP is becoming about JUST dps, some skill and strategy should still remain but all classes keep getting dps buffs and now with glyphs it's who has the most dps wins.
Yeah, they neglected the entire purpose of Tenacity in this module - to prolong PvP combat and make it more skill based as well as giving players more time to react and fight back. Now we're back again in the era of one-rotationing each other.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
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lirithielMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,482Arc User
edited September 2014
I'm glad I gave pvp a skip in the new module. I will only try it out again once the devs get a clue about pvp. The sad thing is we haven't heard a peep from any of them about anything pvp related, hell anything really, since the launch of Mod 4. How long did it take them to apply a fix for the blue glyphs. Now the red glyphs are causing all sorts of problems in pvp and no word on whether the devs plan to address this any time soon. What's even sadder is that I'm beginning to miss WoW pvp...
Our pain is self chosen.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
I agree with you on a lot ... I was on test shard for weeks with other high end pvp gf players and we was testing with pvp hr players and have been since mod 4 and the gf loses about 70% of the time. The one thing a gf can do is get lucky with a 1 hit rotation( by luck i mean, mostly crit hits and the hr not deflecting much or at all)
Well yeah. Im not saying it 100% equal chances. CW with 2k GS lower can kill HR easily in one rotation. It has to be balance better for sure. You kinda need 100 fights of same opponents in same start conditions to get % of balance. Really impossible. I do think that GF shield blocking CW ray is good fix.
I had pug fights with same gf like 20 time. pretty much we were equal on win losses. Don't know his GS thought. But he and one more geared one cold kill me in one rotation no sweat. twice in row. Then I got them 2-3 times) so it is kinda balance. Way more balanced then 1 vs 1 HR DC now . OR SW vs anything else except HR or GF.
But like I sad - HR in mod 3 were more Hunter Rangers.Rather then this stuff we have now where devs tried to put hr in combat stand only and fix all <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they did earlier by more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on top of it.
Yeah mod 3 hr was almost unkillable but couldn't do all the insane dot dmg, I would also prefer that. PVP is becoming about JUST dps, some skill and strategy should still remain but all classes keep getting dps buffs and now with glyphs it's who has the most dps wins.
I kinda liked HR more before mod 3 pathfinder and regen stuff. Where we did more damage but where way more squshier. And most important we were not just nerfed archer for pve and nerfed-to-1-path combat HR in pvp and pretty bad in pve.
It all
- Unmitigated damage and base HR damage with encounter reworked.
- entire defense/deflect made more D&D with Armor Rating, Fortitude, Reflexes and Will
- limit to 1 stand for archer and combat
- pretty much no reliable way to escape CC.
- no use for support spells like Hindering Heal
- armor and gear nerf
- artifacts for off-hand
With my pvp HR 16K and the StormWarden path, I did not see this effect . So, all not the HR class is concerned, I think.
Moreover, recently I noticed that few 12K HRs can kill me in 2 seconds. I have a correct rank (around page 50) and a descent gear
I kinda liked HR more before mod 3 pathfinder and regen stuff. Where we did more damage but where way more squshier. And most important we were not just nerfed archer for pve and nerfed-to-1-path combat HR in pvp and pretty bad in pve.
It all
- Unmitigated damage and base HR damage with encounter reworked.
- entire defense/deflect made more D&D with Armor Rating, Fortitude, Reflexes and Will
- limit to 1 stand for archer and combat
- pretty much no reliable way to escape CC.
- no use for support spells like Hindering Heal
- armor and gear nerf
- artifacts for off-hand
has to be reworked unfortunately IMHO.
If the HR also needs a rework, so be it. Frankly, I'm not sure just what to call the HR any more. Rangers in D&D can be versatile and both capable as a ranged and melee combatant, but still the defining format/archetype for the class is basically the "archer", with the iconic imagery being the bow, arrow, and an animal partner.
Instead, our HR is a weird combination of some archery skills, certain melee powers way too powerful, and not even true melee OR ranged for that matter -- it's DoT. I've used this comparison several times already but the MMOG class that most closely resembles our HR is actually the World of Warcraft Warlock.
The WoW Warlock is quite tanky for a spellcaster, it doesn't really have much of any direct attack, and its basic combat pattern is to apply a helluva lot of DoTs, then CC the target and run in circles, let the DoT do all the life-draining job while the Warlock simply runs and concentrates in surviving.
If anything, my opinion is that our HRs need stronger direct damage archery powers, more slow/root type CCs (just not the old bullshi* grapsing roots which grasps your ankles even if the attack misses), and most of the melee powers reduced to supplementary/utility type powers, instead of what the HR is now -- gimmicky ranged powers, super-easy melee powers with bullshi* damage, and endless barrage of free-damage DoT/procs.
I've always maintained the same stance with unmitigated/undodgeable damage: it doesn't belong in a game like NW. If all the damage potential the HR currently has, is simply lifted away from DoTs and procs, and was moved to direct archery attacks - which can be avoided with skill - then I'd actually accept that as it is.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I noticed this too: this game is becoming the new WoW due that much DoT, auto-proc passives with insane damage, skill-less classes, etc. I said this previously, but a mod just deleted my post... but i will say it again over and over again... not due "i am squareheaded", but due a lot of people think and feel like this.
WoW is not an Action MMO, and PvP is better there by far, and actually working. Just the fact that it has Tab targetting doesn't make a game worse by default. Claiming that the game takes no skill is quite crazy, as evidenced by the very small number of players that are actually good at high-end PvP or able to clear heroic raids before the nerfs.
If anything, the devs here could learn a lot from WoW. You know... things there JUST WORK.
Comments
As a person that plays both classes...
- both CW and HR CCs are remarkably easy to land, if the target is CCable. If the target is a permasprinty GWF or permaTR etc, HR is at great advantage vs a CW simply cause it can outheal the damage
- it's NOT OK for either CW or HR to have so much damage - from unavoidable procs, such as Storm Spell/Piercing/Flurry. Thing is, HR will still have great damage against a BiS Senti GWF for example, or GF, while CW will have serious issues against these noCC/very tanky opponents.
- Entangle is almost impossible to land without a preCC, such as Freeze or Icy Rays, if the opponent sees you. Boar Charge is easier to land because it's very fast, but you can definitely still fail it, so good HRs open with Disruptive, which means no dodges after.
- the prone from Boar last like a normal prone, and the victim cannot deflect; Entangle lasts for an extremely short period. The extended Entangles you seen were from the CW class feat Orb of Imposition, which is kinda cheesy.
That's about as realistic one can get about these two classes.
My conclusion is that CW and HR land their stuff pretty dang easy, through Point and Click.
I say bring back Shard, which requires AIMING and full combo, and make most of the powers work like Frontline Surge - which requires AIMING and TIMING as well.
Well put...
Point and click is hard? Almost every HR ability is a targeted nuke with zero cast time. CW also uses PnC, but due to much longer casting times you can easily avoid them via dodging.
Are HR powers hard to land? No. Are they hard to hit with? No, but it's a matter of skill. If 5 people say it's easy and 1 says it's hard, well...
I strongly support this.
This is almost a daily discussion in my guild. Some classes have it too easy, and have been reduced to Point and Click and Proc. To make things worse, there's also this unavoidable Piercing stuff or Storm Spell huge procs (especially on squishies).
In contrast, the GWF now has, once every 17 secs or so, a chance to land a combo. They have a good nuke (unless it get deflected...), but you cannot realistically land it without good CC. One CC is usually not even enough, and you have to chain another stun with Takedown.
I mean, there isn't a huge amount of skill involved with 3 buttons to press, but at least it's something, and you pay the price if you miss.
This is an example of good design at the moment, no free damage, no more Threatening Rush spam, no more 99% guaranteed rotation every Roar/8 secs, no more Deep Gash extravaganza.
It is mind boggling that after all these months in which they should have learned from fixing and finally balancing the GWF, they screw up other classes now and give them the ezy mode tools they took from GWF.
It is an Action MMO, the Point&Click moves with huge burst need to go. Same with others guaranteed forms of damage.
No free goodies.
I don't know how this will work out in PvP, as she has no enchants and no Epic Gear, but I'll try it out in the Skirmish of Neverwinter.
Getting too close to the Dragon will probably be a disaster, if my Wood Elf Archery Stormwarden with similar Gear is anything to go by.
Oh, for 10 million AD to spend!
~
What is ACT and how would I use it to log my dps output?
Cheers!
well you know feet says +40% of unmitigated damage. Don't think you should be surprised by that lol or need to parse log for that.
Advanced Combat Log. With plug- in for Neverwinter. Just search on this forum.
You are wrong.
First - Only really inexperienced people in pvp don't know now what to do with Forest ghost.
Second - all 3 - Forest, Boar, Rain have 1 sec of freeze at the end of animation. Does not require it to be successful - you missed you have 1 freeze.
3rd - Forest and Disruptive are both dailies. So to trigger both you need at least 75% of AP.
4th - only face-roller does trigger Disruptive , forest, boar and fox. Yeah these powers plus mara are only powers HR still have. Not enough nerf by you? So give HR other 5 usable.
5th - vulnerability windows are 1 sec max by boars top. Disruptive work on players for 0.5 sec. After boars we do can land only 1 attack.
Usually it is a dot but aimed strike takes more time to place then accual boars stun.
So looks for me you just don't know anything about how HR do play. ambisinisterr is really right here - all this thread is just to whine about HRs. again. Go play one first. I do want to see how you will be able to place 20k damage in pvp with 15k GS combat HR in one hit.
Frontline, take down, threating rush, cloud of steel, shadow strike, bulls charge, icy rays, entangl force and so on.
The claims in this thread are getting ridicolous. It seems this threads gathers all people who ever wanted to say something about HRs, no matter what nonsense it is. Whats next? HRs shouldnt ride mounts because its animal slavery?
Some issues of HRs dmg and PB should be worked on. For example pb dmg should not aply if the power that triggers it is dodged. But it should ignore resistances, but not immunities. So it should ignore a GFs shield, but not the immunity of their class feature after popping a daily.
Thats an actual issues worth looking into. Not that pathetic biased <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> flying around in this thread. Rain of swords in pvp… still loling...
If I switch my combat HR to pve gear, I have over 22k gs, over 11k power. And I dont even do half the dmg a cw or sw does in normal T2 dungeons. Bringing pve powers on the table will not help the Hr nerf crowd for their arguments.
You could only say that thing to prove you have no idea what are you talking about. Every RoS dot tick triggers flurry which leads to crazy careful attack or aimed strike triple ticks, and each of them applies PB and glyphs.
Sorry, I dont have low gs pug games in mind where nobody is aware of the other classes powers and just running around like chickens. Good luck trying rain of swords against serious opponents. Not to mention about rain of arrows… oh lol.
Thats skill is SO easy to counter, i am still laughing about people really considering it to be useful in pvp.
Still waiting with my 19k gwf to be beaten by a 12k hr what was claimed in the beginning of the thread. And I am also waiting for the HR using rain of swords while I use maraudeurs, which has 1000 times more utility.
Oh, and without glyphs, rain of swords is even crappier.
You know, I am not a so called forum warrior. I am out there on daily basis fighting with and against the best and most geared players in premades AND pug matches. Maybe some people here should actually start playing seriously before making assumptions.
I am always open for testing and learning, so feel free to pm me and how u beat me with rain of swords and a 12k HR. Otherwise, maybe stop talking ****.
1. What any hr would do is, boar charge....rain of swords....activates all red glyphs and does very high dmg. It's easy to land on any player.
2. The thread is titled "12k HR 1 hit rotation against 19k GWF" because I was showing the dps that a hr can do with just 3 powers/ dot dmg. Not 12k hr 1v1s and beats 19kgwf.
Read before posting please.
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Figured as much.
Another elitist who bases opinions on what... 1%? Less than 1%? ... of the people which easily exceeds any definition of normalcy or average incidence. All of the what you can do within your small, tiny little circle of "elite players" or "premade-level" or "higher playing ground" or whatever term you wish to describe your lil' tea party, simply doesn't matter.
Heck, I bet keltz0r or dinter level TRs still beat the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of most BiS level competition they face, and what, us TRs are supposed to figure just where we stand in mod4 based upon two of the game's rarest, and most incredible players? Shall I use some of the best HRs as a reference, and quote how they have no problems in facing the CWs, and claim CWs don't need to be toned down?
The very fact you so proudly spend time "out there on daily basis fighting with and against the best and most geared players in premades AND pug matches" simply means how narrow your scope of vision is. So you spend your entire time in that small, exclusive club, secluded from what goes on in the rest of the world.
Try getting out of it some time, because when it comes to "balance", like it or not the 'normal' and 'average' players take incidience -- not your small little exclusive club of "the best and most geared". You're an anomally trying to comment on normalcy.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You cannot really replace Marauders, as it allows you to "dodge" Icy Rays which is HR's worst enemy, but also close gaps and open up for Boar Charge.
You cannot replace Fox, as it's a free team dodge and our only nuke.
You cannot replace Boar, as it's another buff and it's an essential part of HR combos. In a game against good PvPers, you WON'T land Shifts on them without CCing them first.
I tested RoS and it's quite cool at triggering flurry periodically, somehow. I use RoA and RoS, for PvE. I would never bother using them in PvP.
However, the topic subject still stays... even though the execution is a bit flawed.
But you people should be VERY careful on what you ask for, because the Combat HR needs to be tanky, and this means Deflect/Healing for now, and it needs to dish very good melee damage.
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at.
I agree. I fight top pvp hr players all the time and maybe 5% use ROS. I do see many of them using thorn ward though. But I wasn't saying its good to use or the best just that its easy to land, because any power is when the enemy is flat on there face.
I also just used it in the vid to show the DOT dmg. Showing how much a weak hr can do by just standing there. If I had the time to gear my hr up to the same as my gf I could have shown a 1v1 ir a pvp vid and then really shown it more involved and at full effectiveness but I just don't have the time to gear any other chars sorry.
"
What HR doesn't need tho is dishing damage through lame DoTs and procs and unavoidable whatevers. Encounters/at will damage that you need to AIM for and LAND should be where the DPS is at."
Couldn't agree with this more and it's the point why I made this post and hopefully right. Hr is a striker class and should have high dps, they should be a class in pvp that you need to take out first because you don't want to be killed fast but them having so much dps on dot isn't fair I think and to get high numbers should require skill.
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Plus all of this is single target. Yes HR with good gear can survive CWs rotation. sometimes even survive knife. But As long as you fight not alone like Rembo you are good- cause add 30% of damage to HR - he is dead.
Same thing goes about 1 vs 1 against GF. IF gf will be too defensive - HR will kill him. If it is smart GF - he will kill HR in one rotation without chance to regen or get hit.
As for me all of this is pretty much 1 vs 1 - as long as equal OP CW and GF exist like they are now - HR are at right spot in 1 vs 1 fights. Maybe all rembo CW should really try to fight in team rather then call for nerf ?
Piercing as it is now is not the best implementation. Like balance from cryptic. But what else you are supposed to do with over -defencive GF with glypth ? You can not hurt him, his shield blocks pretty much everything - just try to fight as archer againts GF, and glypth will kill you.
My final on this - as long as there is kinda OP balance between CW GF and HR piercing should stay as it is. To fix piercing you need to fix Unmitigated damage and make "defence' as it is in D&D rather then <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that we have now. IMHO
Applause on this. Exactly what we asked, exactly what I wish we had. Mod 3 HR were really better in meaning of skill requirements. Just needed a bit more tanky, bigger base damage for off hand that is our main, and twicks for melee power. Still miss reduction of range cool-downs from melee attacks.
fight goes like this :u land df they land that rush u prone gone to soul, revive, dead again.
i watch a dev with bis gwf 1v1 rank 9 hr it was over in 20 sec hr won with full hp
gwf couldnt last 2 rotations
fight was on domination when one team quit
hr dmg is insane to say the least ,cw is strong but doesnt come close
and just to say hr mod 3 was way more balanced ,they were tanky but low dmg ,now they one shot people
its normal to see 30 -40 kills hr in pug if the other team dont quit in first min
I agree with you on a lot
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Yeah mod 3 hr was almost unkillable but couldn't do all the insane dot dmg, I would also prefer that. PVP is becoming about JUST dps, some skill and strategy should still remain but all classes keep getting dps buffs and now with glyphs it's who has the most dps wins.
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Yeah, they neglected the entire purpose of Tenacity in this module - to prolong PvP combat and make it more skill based as well as giving players more time to react and fight back. Now we're back again in the era of one-rotationing each other.
The most important thing in life is to be yourself. Unless you can be Batman. Always be Batman.
Well yeah. Im not saying it 100% equal chances. CW with 2k GS lower can kill HR easily in one rotation. It has to be balance better for sure. You kinda need 100 fights of same opponents in same start conditions to get % of balance. Really impossible. I do think that GF shield blocking CW ray is good fix.
I had pug fights with same gf like 20 time. pretty much we were equal on win losses. Don't know his GS thought. But he and one more geared one cold kill me in one rotation no sweat. twice in row. Then I got them 2-3 times) so it is kinda balance. Way more balanced then 1 vs 1 HR DC now . OR SW vs anything else except HR or GF.
But like I sad - HR in mod 3 were more Hunter Rangers.Rather then this stuff we have now where devs tried to put hr in combat stand only and fix all <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> they did earlier by more <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> on top of it.
I kinda liked HR more before mod 3 pathfinder and regen stuff. Where we did more damage but where way more squshier. And most important we were not just nerfed archer for pve and nerfed-to-1-path combat HR in pvp and pretty bad in pve.
It all
- Unmitigated damage and base HR damage with encounter reworked.
- entire defense/deflect made more D&D with Armor Rating, Fortitude, Reflexes and Will
- limit to 1 stand for archer and combat
- pretty much no reliable way to escape CC.
- no use for support spells like Hindering Heal
- armor and gear nerf
- artifacts for off-hand
has to be reworked unfortunately IMHO.
With my pvp HR 16K and the StormWarden path, I did not see this effect . So, all not the HR class is concerned, I think.
Moreover, recently I noticed that few 12K HRs can kill me in 2 seconds. I have a correct rank (around page 50) and a descent gear
If the HR also needs a rework, so be it. Frankly, I'm not sure just what to call the HR any more. Rangers in D&D can be versatile and both capable as a ranged and melee combatant, but still the defining format/archetype for the class is basically the "archer", with the iconic imagery being the bow, arrow, and an animal partner.
Instead, our HR is a weird combination of some archery skills, certain melee powers way too powerful, and not even true melee OR ranged for that matter -- it's DoT. I've used this comparison several times already but the MMOG class that most closely resembles our HR is actually the World of Warcraft Warlock.
The WoW Warlock is quite tanky for a spellcaster, it doesn't really have much of any direct attack, and its basic combat pattern is to apply a helluva lot of DoTs, then CC the target and run in circles, let the DoT do all the life-draining job while the Warlock simply runs and concentrates in surviving.
If anything, my opinion is that our HRs need stronger direct damage archery powers, more slow/root type CCs (just not the old bullshi* grapsing roots which grasps your ankles even if the attack misses), and most of the melee powers reduced to supplementary/utility type powers, instead of what the HR is now -- gimmicky ranged powers, super-easy melee powers with bullshi* damage, and endless barrage of free-damage DoT/procs.
I've always maintained the same stance with unmitigated/undodgeable damage: it doesn't belong in a game like NW. If all the damage potential the HR currently has, is simply lifted away from DoTs and procs, and was moved to direct archery attacks - which can be avoided with skill - then I'd actually accept that as it is.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
WoW is not an Action MMO, and PvP is better there by far, and actually working. Just the fact that it has Tab targetting doesn't make a game worse by default. Claiming that the game takes no skill is quite crazy, as evidenced by the very small number of players that are actually good at high-end PvP or able to clear heroic raids before the nerfs.
If anything, the devs here could learn a lot from WoW. You know... things there JUST WORK.