with all due respect... if the source of the data is opinion rather than fact... meaning if 20 individuals have a similar experience of going into PvP and getting slaughtered by HRs (just an example) and suggest they are too OP... considering you have a wide range of player levels due to time invested, skill, gear, builds, guild support, etc... how can you consider combining this data with actual data comparisons, combat logs, collective builds and gear comparisons, etc?
i do realize that the feedback collectively is what it is. the source is greatly varied. i just hope that is part of what is taken into consideration when reviewed.
as for transparency, it would only give those that disagree with what the masses are saying a rail to rant over. as akromatik stated, advocates will not be a part of the decision making. they are only collating and reporting data. so i suppose how the data is viewed is at PWE's sole discretion. that is how it's always been even with the official feedback threads in the preview forums.
Well some of the stuff posted by mods and dev's lately has cast question on if it's legitimate to post our logs/ACT data (which is just the logs put into a nice readable format) If we really can't post those anymore, and I don't think we've gotten an official clarification on this, then opinion is all we can post.
The whole thing reminds me of cheesy horror where the camera pans out and the kicker is that the protagonist is the monster.
I have met the playerbase, hell, I am one of them. "Hive of scum and villainy" doesn't even begin to cover what we're like. I really would prefer a stronger emphasis on instrumentation and data, rather than listening to us. We are not to be trusted.
This is pretty much the main issue. The one thing is it's not just the playerbase here. It's all humanity on the internet. A few can be trusted but 99.99999999% shouldn't be.
A feedback thread about a method of collecting feedback...interesting.
Some clarification on the on class advocate position.
-These individuals will be selected based on their past actions and participation in the class feedback threads from previous modules. They will be selected by GentlemanCrush and myself.
-The advocates will hold office for 1 module. Once their time in the sun is up, we will move on to the next eligible candidate.
-These advocates will not be assisting in the design or decisions regarding the class direction. These players will function to collate and collect feedback into more readable lists to improve dev response time and better allow the feelings of the community to become apparent.
-A big part of this is separating the feedback from the "discussions" that tend to pop up in these threads. These advocates will include any and all feedback in their reports. They will not be the ones deciding what is "good" feedback and what isn't. If we find that an advocate has been purposely omitting feedback in their reports, they will be relieved of their post immediately.
Hopefully that has answered some questions.
Thanks for clearing a few things up ,your post is very much appreciated , one more question and not asking for any specifics obviously but will people who's MAIN ACCOUNT (not forum account but main class account in game since many here use alts for the forum) have been temporarily banned in the past or had any other sanction against their account be excluded from the application process?
with all due respect... if the source of the data is opinion rather than fact... meaning if 20 individuals have a similar experience of going into PvP and getting slaughtered by HRs (just an example) and suggest they are too OP... considering you have a wide range of player levels due to time invested, skill, gear, builds, guild support, etc... how can you consider combining this data with actual data comparisons, combat logs, collective builds and gear comparisons, etc?
i do realize that the feedback collectively is what it is. the source is greatly varied. i just hope that is part of what is taken into consideration when reviewed.
I would assume that a game like Neverwinter, which is designed to appeal to casual players, needs to have its "balance" tweaked towards what the majority perceives. If the majority of forum users (despite their lack of skill or understanding or other biased factors) believe that a skill/feat is overpowered, then that's all Cryptic wants to know so that they can change it until the perception changes to view that skill as "balanced". Whether or not the skill was already balanced when perceived by group 'x' (equally skilled and experienced players) is irrelevant - group 'a' (the forum majority) thinks it's unbalanced, and so Cryptic must change it to assuage the larger group 'a'.
Does it matter that group 'a' contains a large number of "squeeky wheels" and thus skews the overall perception? Nope.
Since we already know that Cryptic devs don't have an adequate amount of time to compile and analyze data, and the PWE budget won't allow hiring new people, what other options do we have as a collective community?
I propose that the devs run multiple tests on the largest issues resulting from the Advocate's reports, and then it's up to the Devs to decide if those issues were issues at all, or the result of a large number of squeeky-wheels who also don't know how to play their own class very well.
SNIP
so i suppose how the data is viewed is at PWE's sole discretion. that is how it's always been even with the official feedback threads in the preview forums.
The Devs want to review feedback. They want to take feedback into consideration. They looked at the time spent doing this and see it is eating away at their coding time. They also see that they aren't able to use all of the feedback because they don't have enough time to work through it. Now they will have volunteers to summarize and tally this feedback.
The key advantage here is feedback will be less likely to be missed or overlooked. That's why I emphasized part of the quote above. Without these summaries, how the data is viewed = not viewed.
Give the devs some credit with evaluating the feedback. They are going to check the feedback opinions with their hard data. For example, if lots of feedback says "power xyz needs to do more damage" they won't just say "the community has spoken. Buff power XYZ!" They will compare this to their stats on power xyz. See if it's working as intended, and decide what to do about it.
Note: My comments are not directed at melodywhr. I just used his quote to emphasize my point.
Nixon the TR
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The Devs want to review feedback. They want to take feedback into consideration. They looked at the time spent doing this and see it is eating away at their coding time. They also see that they aren't able to use all of the feedback because they don't have enough time to work through it. Now they will have volunteers to summarize and tally this feedback.
The key advantage here is feedback will be less likely to be missed or overlooked. That's why I emphasized part of the quote above. Without these summaries, how the data is viewed = not viewed.
Give the devs some credit with evaluating the feedback. They are going to check the feedback opinions with their hard data. For example, if lots of feedback says "power xyz needs to do more damage" they won't just say "the community has spoken. Buff power XYZ!" They will compare this to their stats on power xyz. See if it's working as intended, and decide what to do about it.
Note: My comments are not directed at melodywhr. I just used his quote to emphasize my point.
Well-put in excellent fashion. I agree with this and is more or less what I was hoping to state in-part previously, but I know when my comments turn into a novel they don't get read well by others.
Oh, wait, is this not the same case for the Devs reading forum comments, hence the request for volunteer Advocates?
The whole thing reminds me of cheesy horror where the camera pans out and the kicker is that the protagonist is the monster.
I have met the playerbase, hell, I am one of them. "Hive of scum and villainy" doesn't even begin to cover what we're like. I really would prefer a stronger emphasis on instrumentation and data, rather than listening to us. We are not to be trusted.
This is, after all, the same community that will gleefully, as a 18k GS veteran, push down a rank newbie. Just to steal some flowers. Because the 30 second respawn timer is much to long. We as a community, make the kids from "Lord of the flies" seem downright civilized. Now, someone go find me piggy, I need to torment something.
Then it's not advocacy. As you are so fond of asking others to do; please read the various definitions of the word.
An advocate is, by definition, a person lobbying for, speaking for, writing for the advancement of a specific group's position. This is, as you have written it (and perhaps as Cryptic intends it to be), nothing more than a job anyone with moderate reading comprehension skills and the ability to create a bullet-pointed summary could do.
This is my thoughts exactly. I have been very active on the forums and a HUGE underlying theme I see and echo myself is that players feel like what they are asking "a summary of issues" has been done before in the threads, in the forums. Heck go look at the GF thread, Dom and I both kept an up to date summary and it hasnt gone anywhere. I know this is EXACTLY true as well for the GWF thread, post after post ALL saying the SAME things. Got nowhere.
So if you guys (DEVS) think this "summary" approach is really going to help, GREAT!However speaking from the player base, alot of us have little confidence in this method and the change this will help bring. Again, if its PURELY a "data collect" system, whats going to change?
Now my PERSONAL opinion of what I think this "Advocate" SHOULD be. (Take out your fire extinguishers and get ready!!!) Is a TRUE "advocate" in every sense of the word. His role would be to actually communicate with the DEVs (back and forth discussion) in order to help bring DEEPER perspective into class balance.
In order to do this, you DO run the risk of that advocate putting their own opinions into the equation. This is BOTH a pro AND a con. The ONLY way this will honestly work is if you guys take YOUR top 10 candidates and somehow hold an "election" of sorts. Then youll have a fair representative that will help bring valuable perspective and input FOR the class. To help you guys get direction of where things need to go. Not just a "tally" system but someone who CAN and WILL weed out bad advise, who can put weekly suggestions into summarized bullet points of say 10 things that have been prevalent issues with the class, such as bugs, lack luster powers, over-powered powers ETC.
Yes, you run the risk of that person having an advantageous platform to insert their "own agenda" obviously YOU as DEVs are the quality control, but you NEED a direct ear to the player base. Instead of getting 7 reports with 100 different items (because all they did was data collect) you now get 7 reports with 10 different items that have been DISCERNED as important issues.
Since its only 1 module long, worst case you get a bad advocate who pushes their own agenda too much (which will be apparent to the DEVs BTW in the way they act and suggest things - its hard to hide) and removed from office. The election standpoint will make it somewhat fair in that the community of that class elects its own advocate.
Obvious "rules" would apply to that like you must have a lvl 60 of the class to vote, etc... However this is the ONLY way I think this will truly work and you will truly get traction in making balance changes.
This is my thoughts exactly. I have been very active on the forums and a HUGE underlying theme I see and echo myself is that players feel like what they are asking "a summary of issues" has been done before in the threads, in the forums. Heck go look at the GF thread, Dom and I both kept an up to date summary and it hasnt gone anywhere. I know this is EXACTLY true as well for the GWF thread, post after post ALL saying the SAME things. Got nowhere.
So if you guys (DEVS) think this "summary" approach is really going to help, GREAT!However speaking from the player base, alot of us have little confidence in this method and the change this will help bring. Again, if its PURELY a "data collect" system, whats going to change?
Now my PERSONAL opinion of what I think this "Advocate" SHOULD be. (Take out your fire extinguishers and get ready!!!) Is a TRUE "advocate" in every sense of the word. His role would be to actually communicate with the DEVs (back and forth discussion) in order to help bring DEEPER perspective into class balance.
In order to do this, you DO run the risk of that advocate putting their own opinions into the equation. This is BOTH a pro AND a con. The ONLY way this will honestly work is if you guys take YOUR top 10 candidates and somehow hold an "election" of sorts. Then youll have a fair representative that will help bring valuable perspective and input FOR the class. To help you guys get direction of where things need to go. Not just a "tally" system but someone who CAN and WILL weed out bad advise, who can put weekly suggestions into summarized bullet points of say 10 things that have been prevalent issues with the class, such as bugs, lack luster powers, over-powered powers ETC.
Yes, you run the risk of that person having an advantageous platform to insert their "own agenda" obviously YOU as DEVs are the quality control, but you NEED a direct ear to the player base. Instead of getting 7 reports with 100 different items (because all they did was data collect) you now get 7 reports with 10 different items that have been DISCERNED as important issues.
Since its only 1 module long, worst case you get a bad advocate who pushes their own agenda too much (which will be apparent to the DEVs BTW in the way they act and suggest things - its hard to hide) and removed from office. The election standpoint will make it somewhat fair in that the community of that class elects its own advocate.
Obvious "rules" would apply to that like you must have a lvl 60 of the class to vote, etc... However this is the ONLY way I think this will truly work and you will truly get traction in making balance changes.
Seriously? You think an election on the internet has any chance of working or being fair? Seriously?
Seriously? You think an election on the internet has any chance of working or being fair? Seriously?
Well of course you have a better solution, one that stands a snowball's chance in hell of being at least arguably fair?
No, of course it wouldn't be unbiased. But as ways to make the selection even remotely represent the players go, I think it's probably better than whatever alternatives there are. I could be wrong though, it's happened once or twice.
Well some of the stuff posted by mods and dev's lately has cast question on if it's legitimate to post our logs/ACT data (which is just the logs put into a nice readable format) If we really can't post those anymore, and I don't think we've gotten an official clarification on this, then opinion is all we can post.
if it hasn't already been posted elsewhere, ACT has been deemed to be acceptable per the CMs.
I have met the playerbase, hell, I am one of them. "Hive of scum and villainy" doesn't even begin to cover what we're like. I really would prefer a stronger emphasis on instrumentation and data, rather than listening to us. We are not to be trusted.
This. A thousand times this.
I mentioned that this was a really bad idea, right?
Well of course you have a better solution, one that stands a snowball's chance in hell of being at least arguably fair?
No, of course it wouldn't be unbiased. But as ways to make the selection even remotely represent the players go, I think it's probably better than whatever alternatives there are. I could be wrong though, it's happened once or twice.
The better solution is to forget the whole thing.
No internet election ever worked. Not anywhere, and not for anything. Ever.
mod note: i went through this thread and cleaned up some unproductive and off topic discussions. whether the word "advocate" is being accurately represented based on Webster's definition is irrelevant. it's what the position was titled. if you think it's incorrect, please PM the CMs especially if you think part of this whole discussion is based on the misrepresentation of the title.
as for having these as elected positions, this has already been clarified by Akromatik that the selections for these positions will be made by Akro and gcrush.
let's please stay on topic and be respectful of each other.
I feel SOOO bad for the advocates who may not realize they are painting targets on themselves. I bet all or most of the ones chosen are really nice people, too.
All I can say is "have thick skin" -- maybe elephant-thick or rhino-thick -- because when the classes end up not being "perfect" for whatever reason, it is now going to be the advocates' fault.
"Why didn't you make sure XXXXXX got nerfed?"
"Are you stupid? We all told you YYYYYYY was the highest priority!"
"You suck, advocate! This is even worse than before because ZZZZZZ!"
It is going to be a very long list of complaints for these poor people. A LONG LONG list. I would expect the number of complaints and personal insults to far outweigh any kind of actual feedback for them to organize. Imagine having to read through fifty posts calling you specifically stupid, or foolish, or whatever.
Seriously? You think an election on the internet has any chance of working or being fair? Seriously?
I think its the best chance this game has to be honest. Not that its "fair" for someone trying to BE elected, but that you will have ONE voice and ONE advocate who can help give incite into some of the balance issues.
Because lets be honest, the DEVs are so limited in capacity and they spend 8hrs + a day coding and not playing this game. Then you have others who spend 8 hrs + a day PLAYING the game.
Who is better suited for discussing balance? The players who play the game....
A simple "compilation" wont work, because it puts the ball BACK in the DEV field of "heres 100 things people want, oh and BTW 50 of them have been brought up 10x or more and about 30 of them are complete opposites of the other 70 etc" Itll get us NOWHERE fast.
Again, the ISSUE is DEVs dont play the game as much as the players, dont know he REAL problems and have little way of REALLY knowing whose opinions are valid/fair etc.
If you get ONE person (or even THREE players) for each class who have the direct ear of the DEVs able to pass along "council" if you will about balance issues, changes, suggestions.
I mean Maybe Crush alternates each week. Week 1: CWs Week 2: GFs etc... But give each class its fair shake and attention THROUGH the players who can bring the most important issues to the surface, get them hammered out, then you have 6-7 weeks to compile/test etc again before your class rolls back around.
I mean unless Crush/DEVs want to offer a Q/A session for each of the classes once a week, but they need SOME way of having the players give direct feedback/suggestions - clearly the forums are not a good way of doing this (as evidenced in the past).
Well of course you have a better solution, one that stands a snowball's chance in hell of being at least arguably fair?
No, of course it wouldn't be unbiased. But as ways to make the selection even remotely represent the players go, I think it's probably better than whatever alternatives there are. I could be wrong though, it's happened once or twice.
Yeah ditch the idea of having players do it and get an intern to do it.
I think its the best chance this game has to be honest. Not that its "fair" for someone trying to BE elected, but that you will have ONE voice and ONE advocate who can help give incite into some of the balance issues.
Because lets be honest, the DEVs are so limited in capacity and they spend 8hrs + a day coding and not playing this game. Then you have others who spend 8 hrs + a day PLAYING the game.
Who is better suited for discussing balance? The players who play the game....
A simple "compilation" wont work, because it puts the ball BACK in the DEV field of "heres 100 things people want, oh and BTW 50 of them have been brought up 10x or more and about 30 of them are complete opposites of the other 70 etc" Itll get us NOWHERE fast.
Again, the ISSUE is DEVs dont play the game as much as the players, dont know he REAL problems and have little way of REALLY knowing whose opinions are valid/fair etc.
If you get ONE person (or even THREE players) for each class who have the direct ear of the DEVs able to pass along "council" if you will about balance issues, changes, suggestions.
I mean Maybe Crush alternates each week. Week 1: CWs Week 2: GFs etc... But give each class its fair shake and attention THROUGH the players who can bring the most important issues to the surface, get them hammered out, then you have 6-7 weeks to compile/test etc again before your class rolls back around.
I mean unless Crush/DEVs want to offer a Q/A session for each of the classes once a week, but they need SOME way of having the players give direct feedback/suggestions - clearly the forums are not a good way of doing this (as evidenced in the past).
Players won't try for balance. That's an idealistic myth. Players will try to get the devs to do what benefits them. Players don't care about balance as a whole. It's why the dev's should read nothing but the bug report section.
Now my PERSONAL opinion of what I think this "Advocate" SHOULD be. (Take out your fire extinguishers and get ready!!!) Is a TRUE "advocate" in every sense of the word. His role would be to actually communicate with the DEVs (back and forth discussion) in order to help bring DEEPER perspective into class balance.
And this is exactly why I dread this. What makes YOUR vision for the class the best one? Your opinion might work for you, but not for anyone else. The very idea of a single player having back and forth discussions about class balance and changes, is just chilling. There is no way anyone, who feels they have a special connection and influence with the devs, wont abuse it for self interest. We all play this game, no one players voice should be above any other, for any reason.
Yeah ditch the idea of having players do it and get an intern to do it.
Thanks for the clarification, having that up in the air was disturbing.
Players won't try for balance. That's an idealistic myth. Players will try to get the devs to do what benefits them. Players don't care about balance as a whole. It's why the dev's should read nothing but the bug report section.
1) I agree, if its JUST compilation, an intern could do that. I guess if they can get it free, why not have players but seems itll only add complication.
2) ACT now approved - cool beans
3) I think the game is past the point of players just wanting an OP class. Alot of players have left, alot of players have significantly cut back time spent. I think everyone is tired of NOT having balance it just makes it not fun. Atleast a majority of players I play with/talk to have this attitude.
If this were 1 year ago or even 6 months ago, sure, but most of the guys still playing the game are past the point of just wanting to be OP. Weve (mostly) all been there, done that, gets old fast. Now (myself included) just want to see PVP balanced, fun AND new content.
Since DEVs havnt opened up about "PVE community advocates" or "PVP community advocates" yet, the only one we can help them with is class balance. Will there still be issues? Always. Will it help some of the stupid decisions from being made? YES.
If this was around for module 2->module 3 GWFs never would have been stupid OP as they were. If it were around mod3->mod 4 CWs wouldnt have been stupid OP etc.... At the end of the day, a GOOD advocate has more depth and knowledge about a classes needs and balance than the DEV team will, just due to time spent. Unless there is a specific GF DEV, CW Dev, GWF DEV etc it wont happen.
So let the players tell you who they want for each class, let that player give you his list of "major" issues for the class. Not just "GWFs should 1 shot people" but its pretty easy to see from past posts who is objective about the class and wants fair balance.
Voting is perfect, but unless they are going to spend tens to hundreds of hours finding a qualified candidate, the DEVs picking a person wont work.
I think it is a matter of method and transparency ...
again, we're, for fun, discussing how we wanted to see gwf (barracks). there are commonalities, divergences exist. but I believe it is possible to make concessions in each direction. if this were a kind of "official forum" (moderated by advocat, has a lot of people that I do not like to see posting there) he could, at the end of the week or the end of a term summarizing what was discussed and post the full report in barracks before sending to akro. the responsible dev could this "pre report" with the report received and, bang, you have transparency.
the point is: the dev is willing to do gwf under the format (not power level) we expect from class?
the same method could be done in the feedback thread. having to repeat the same thing, sometimes being sympathetic, sometimes being aggressive in hopes to read took me a lot of pleasure from the game.
And this is exactly why I dread this. What makes YOUR vision for the class the best one? Your opinion might work for you, but not for anyone else. The very idea of a single player having back and forth discussions about class balance and changes, is just chilling. There is no way anyone, who feels they have a special connection and influence with the devs, wont abuse it for self interest. We all play this game, no one players voice should be above any other, for any reason.
Exactly this. We already have too much class elitism going on as it is in both PvE and PvP. It's ridiculous. How do we know these "advocates" will comb the forums for the right posts to boost their class instead of making things work as intended? How do we know these people have the best interests of the community in their posts as opposed to "Well, MY class is the best so it should never have ANY changes". Or even if they've tried other classes to see how they play and get a feel for them so they know group synergy as opposed to 4/5 of one class in a single party because that's the state of the game in many cases. the truth is, we don't know.
I'd rather see a thread, a SINGLE THREAD PER CLASS with everything from people who play said classes to say what works and what doesn't, much like the feedback threads in the Preview server. Sadly, though, a lot of those don't seem to be read as much either.
Ultimately this might also become some kind of popularity contest. I'll bet some of those who've nominated themselves will go all out and post all over just to prove themselves.
I guess I'll have to wait and see who gets picked for what.
Exactly this. We already have too much class elitism going on as it is in both PvE and PvP. It's ridiculous. How do we know these "advocates" will comb the forums for the right posts to boost their class instead of making things work as intended? How do we know these people have the best interests of the community in their posts as opposed to "Well, MY class is the best so it should never have ANY changes". Or even if they've tried other classes to see how they play and get a feel for them so they know group synergy as opposed to 4/5 of one class in a single party because that's the state of the game in many cases. the truth is, we don't know.
I'd rather see a thread, a SINGLE THREAD PER CLASS with everything from people who play said classes to say what works and what doesn't, much like the feedback threads in the Preview server. Sadly, though, a lot of those don't seem to be read as much either.
Ultimately this might also become some kind of popularity contest. I'll bet some of those who've nominated themselves will go all out and post all over just to prove themselves.
I guess I'll have to wait and see who gets picked for what.
Doesn't matter, Raptor. The player base has no say in who gets chosen, and it's a volunteer clerical position not a position designed to speak for the class it's collecting posting comments for.
So, while it won't have the ability to do the good that a classic advocacy position might, it will also not have the ability to do any harm. Moot.
-snip-
I'll bet some of those who've nominated themselves...
-snip-
You can't nominate" yourself, you can volunteer yourself, which happens to be the *requirement*. All volunteers *must* announce their own interest in participating, then send answers to several question via PM to Akro. Hence, "nominating" anyone is a waste of time - that someone has to proactively volunteer. This is a clear example of rampant misinformation that spreads like the Ebola epidemic referenced in current events. It comes from the typical fear mongering that is prevalent in threads like this, whether it is intentional or not.
Generally speaking, as for the rest: I thought it was pretty clear from the initial announcement post and later verified in this thread by Akro and Gentleman Crush that this is a [secretary] job of gather and compile. It is not a means to proffer "advice" to the Devs and those devs will not take such 'advice' from any Advocate.
The Advocate is to comb the forums for class-specific threads, compile the content into an easy-to-read "report" with tallies. All of it: The good, bad, and ugly.
I am amazed at the fear mongering that goes on here and the intellectually-lazy who just jump onto those coattails for the ride without an ounce of their own vetting, turning one person with utterly wrong ideas into a throng of people with utterly wrong ideas.
If the concept of this [secretary] (Advocate) brings fear to your little hearts then you may have paranoia concerns you should have looked at, because even if the most biased, whacked-out agenda-based idea logs are selected for the job, the Devs will know it and fire them if they deviate from the intended and specific requirements of the "job".
Sure, "concern" is to be expected. Though many who use that word tend to express "fear" when describing that "concern". At the very least, this is how such comments read, whether that is what is actually happening or not.
This is an EXPERIMENT. If it doesn't work it will be disbanded and discontinued. I say let it happen. There is simply too much to "win" from it and very, very little to "lose" by it.
gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
edited September 2014
I volunteered as advocate for the HR class.
What I think the advocate should do is to make the weekly list of bullet points public, possibly opening a weekly thread on the relevant forum section. It will be very easy for everybody to check what he/she´s doing and people could offer further comments and possible clarifications to avoid misunderstandings. It will also be easy for the Mods to check the reactions on the thread and get a feeling about the alignment between the advocate and the other forum members. This will help avoiding hidden agendas becoming part of the game.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
What I think the advocate should do is to make the weekly list of bullet points public, possibly opening a weekly thread on the relevant forum section. It will be very easy for everybody to check what he/she´s doing and people could offer further comments and possible clarifications to avoid misunderstandings. It will also be easy for the Mods to check the reactions on the thread and get a feeling about the alignment between the advocate and the other forum members. This will help avoiding hidden agendas becoming part of the game.
Gabriel, I think that's a solid approach and one I can endorse. Given what the position actually is and the described duties that's about as open and transparent as it's going to get from a process perspective.
Comments
Well some of the stuff posted by mods and dev's lately has cast question on if it's legitimate to post our logs/ACT data (which is just the logs put into a nice readable format) If we really can't post those anymore, and I don't think we've gotten an official clarification on this, then opinion is all we can post.
This is pretty much the main issue. The one thing is it's not just the playerbase here. It's all humanity on the internet. A few can be trusted but 99.99999999% shouldn't be.
Thanks for clearing a few things up ,your post is very much appreciated , one more question and not asking for any specifics obviously but will people who's MAIN ACCOUNT (not forum account but main class account in game since many here use alts for the forum) have been temporarily banned in the past or had any other sanction against their account be excluded from the application process?
I would assume that a game like Neverwinter, which is designed to appeal to casual players, needs to have its "balance" tweaked towards what the majority perceives. If the majority of forum users (despite their lack of skill or understanding or other biased factors) believe that a skill/feat is overpowered, then that's all Cryptic wants to know so that they can change it until the perception changes to view that skill as "balanced". Whether or not the skill was already balanced when perceived by group 'x' (equally skilled and experienced players) is irrelevant - group 'a' (the forum majority) thinks it's unbalanced, and so Cryptic must change it to assuage the larger group 'a'.
Does it matter that group 'a' contains a large number of "squeeky wheels" and thus skews the overall perception? Nope.
Since we already know that Cryptic devs don't have an adequate amount of time to compile and analyze data, and the PWE budget won't allow hiring new people, what other options do we have as a collective community?
I propose that the devs run multiple tests on the largest issues resulting from the Advocate's reports, and then it's up to the Devs to decide if those issues were issues at all, or the result of a large number of squeeky-wheels who also don't know how to play their own class very well.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
The Devs want to review feedback. They want to take feedback into consideration. They looked at the time spent doing this and see it is eating away at their coding time. They also see that they aren't able to use all of the feedback because they don't have enough time to work through it. Now they will have volunteers to summarize and tally this feedback.
The key advantage here is feedback will be less likely to be missed or overlooked. That's why I emphasized part of the quote above. Without these summaries, how the data is viewed = not viewed.
Give the devs some credit with evaluating the feedback. They are going to check the feedback opinions with their hard data. For example, if lots of feedback says "power xyz needs to do more damage" they won't just say "the community has spoken. Buff power XYZ!" They will compare this to their stats on power xyz. See if it's working as intended, and decide what to do about it.
Note: My comments are not directed at melodywhr. I just used his quote to emphasize my point.
Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
Well-put in excellent fashion. I agree with this and is more or less what I was hoping to state in-part previously, but I know when my comments turn into a novel they don't get read well by others.
Oh, wait, is this not the same case for the Devs reading forum comments, hence the request for volunteer Advocates?
-Things that make you go hmmmm...-
This is, after all, the same community that will gleefully, as a 18k GS veteran, push down a rank newbie. Just to steal some flowers. Because the 30 second respawn timer is much to long. We as a community, make the kids from "Lord of the flies" seem downright civilized. Now, someone go find me piggy, I need to torment something.
This is my thoughts exactly. I have been very active on the forums and a HUGE underlying theme I see and echo myself is that players feel like what they are asking "a summary of issues" has been done before in the threads, in the forums. Heck go look at the GF thread, Dom and I both kept an up to date summary and it hasnt gone anywhere. I know this is EXACTLY true as well for the GWF thread, post after post ALL saying the SAME things. Got nowhere.
So if you guys (DEVS) think this "summary" approach is really going to help, GREAT! However speaking from the player base, alot of us have little confidence in this method and the change this will help bring. Again, if its PURELY a "data collect" system, whats going to change?
Now my PERSONAL opinion of what I think this "Advocate" SHOULD be. (Take out your fire extinguishers and get ready!!!) Is a TRUE "advocate" in every sense of the word. His role would be to actually communicate with the DEVs (back and forth discussion) in order to help bring DEEPER perspective into class balance.
In order to do this, you DO run the risk of that advocate putting their own opinions into the equation. This is BOTH a pro AND a con. The ONLY way this will honestly work is if you guys take YOUR top 10 candidates and somehow hold an "election" of sorts. Then youll have a fair representative that will help bring valuable perspective and input FOR the class. To help you guys get direction of where things need to go. Not just a "tally" system but someone who CAN and WILL weed out bad advise, who can put weekly suggestions into summarized bullet points of say 10 things that have been prevalent issues with the class, such as bugs, lack luster powers, over-powered powers ETC.
Yes, you run the risk of that person having an advantageous platform to insert their "own agenda" obviously YOU as DEVs are the quality control, but you NEED a direct ear to the player base. Instead of getting 7 reports with 100 different items (because all they did was data collect) you now get 7 reports with 10 different items that have been DISCERNED as important issues.
Since its only 1 module long, worst case you get a bad advocate who pushes their own agenda too much (which will be apparent to the DEVs BTW in the way they act and suggest things - its hard to hide) and removed from office. The election standpoint will make it somewhat fair in that the community of that class elects its own advocate.
Obvious "rules" would apply to that like you must have a lvl 60 of the class to vote, etc... However this is the ONLY way I think this will truly work and you will truly get traction in making balance changes.
Seriously? You think an election on the internet has any chance of working or being fair? Seriously?
Well of course you have a better solution, one that stands a snowball's chance in hell of being at least arguably fair?
No, of course it wouldn't be unbiased. But as ways to make the selection even remotely represent the players go, I think it's probably better than whatever alternatives there are. I could be wrong though, it's happened once or twice.
if it hasn't already been posted elsewhere, ACT has been deemed to be acceptable per the CMs.
Thanks for clarifying that, Melody
I mentioned that this was a really bad idea, right?
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
No internet election ever worked. Not anywhere, and not for anything. Ever.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
as for having these as elected positions, this has already been clarified by Akromatik that the selections for these positions will be made by Akro and gcrush.
let's please stay on topic and be respectful of each other.
thanks.
All I can say is "have thick skin" -- maybe elephant-thick or rhino-thick -- because when the classes end up not being "perfect" for whatever reason, it is now going to be the advocates' fault.
"Why didn't you make sure XXXXXX got nerfed?"
"Are you stupid? We all told you YYYYYYY was the highest priority!"
"You suck, advocate! This is even worse than before because ZZZZZZ!"
It is going to be a very long list of complaints for these poor people. A LONG LONG list. I would expect the number of complaints and personal insults to far outweigh any kind of actual feedback for them to organize. Imagine having to read through fifty posts calling you specifically stupid, or foolish, or whatever.
I think its the best chance this game has to be honest. Not that its "fair" for someone trying to BE elected, but that you will have ONE voice and ONE advocate who can help give incite into some of the balance issues.
Because lets be honest, the DEVs are so limited in capacity and they spend 8hrs + a day coding and not playing this game. Then you have others who spend 8 hrs + a day PLAYING the game.
Who is better suited for discussing balance? The players who play the game....
A simple "compilation" wont work, because it puts the ball BACK in the DEV field of "heres 100 things people want, oh and BTW 50 of them have been brought up 10x or more and about 30 of them are complete opposites of the other 70 etc" Itll get us NOWHERE fast.
Again, the ISSUE is DEVs dont play the game as much as the players, dont know he REAL problems and have little way of REALLY knowing whose opinions are valid/fair etc.
If you get ONE person (or even THREE players) for each class who have the direct ear of the DEVs able to pass along "council" if you will about balance issues, changes, suggestions.
I mean Maybe Crush alternates each week. Week 1: CWs Week 2: GFs etc... But give each class its fair shake and attention THROUGH the players who can bring the most important issues to the surface, get them hammered out, then you have 6-7 weeks to compile/test etc again before your class rolls back around.
I mean unless Crush/DEVs want to offer a Q/A session for each of the classes once a week, but they need SOME way of having the players give direct feedback/suggestions - clearly the forums are not a good way of doing this (as evidenced in the past).
Yeah ditch the idea of having players do it and get an intern to do it.
Thanks for the clarification, having that up in the air was disturbing.
Players won't try for balance. That's an idealistic myth. Players will try to get the devs to do what benefits them. Players don't care about balance as a whole. It's why the dev's should read nothing but the bug report section.
And this is exactly why I dread this. What makes YOUR vision for the class the best one? Your opinion might work for you, but not for anyone else. The very idea of a single player having back and forth discussions about class balance and changes, is just chilling. There is no way anyone, who feels they have a special connection and influence with the devs, wont abuse it for self interest. We all play this game, no one players voice should be above any other, for any reason.
1) I agree, if its JUST compilation, an intern could do that. I guess if they can get it free, why not have players but seems itll only add complication.
2) ACT now approved - cool beans
3) I think the game is past the point of players just wanting an OP class. Alot of players have left, alot of players have significantly cut back time spent. I think everyone is tired of NOT having balance it just makes it not fun. Atleast a majority of players I play with/talk to have this attitude.
If this were 1 year ago or even 6 months ago, sure, but most of the guys still playing the game are past the point of just wanting to be OP. Weve (mostly) all been there, done that, gets old fast. Now (myself included) just want to see PVP balanced, fun AND new content.
Since DEVs havnt opened up about "PVE community advocates" or "PVP community advocates" yet, the only one we can help them with is class balance. Will there still be issues? Always. Will it help some of the stupid decisions from being made? YES.
If this was around for module 2->module 3 GWFs never would have been stupid OP as they were. If it were around mod3->mod 4 CWs wouldnt have been stupid OP etc.... At the end of the day, a GOOD advocate has more depth and knowledge about a classes needs and balance than the DEV team will, just due to time spent. Unless there is a specific GF DEV, CW Dev, GWF DEV etc it wont happen.
So let the players tell you who they want for each class, let that player give you his list of "major" issues for the class. Not just "GWFs should 1 shot people" but its pretty easy to see from past posts who is objective about the class and wants fair balance.
Voting is perfect, but unless they are going to spend tens to hundreds of hours finding a qualified candidate, the DEVs picking a person wont work.
again, we're, for fun, discussing how we wanted to see gwf (barracks). there are commonalities, divergences exist. but I believe it is possible to make concessions in each direction. if this were a kind of "official forum" (moderated by advocat, has a lot of people that I do not like to see posting there) he could, at the end of the week or the end of a term summarizing what was discussed and post the full report in barracks before sending to akro. the responsible dev could this "pre report" with the report received and, bang, you have transparency.
the point is: the dev is willing to do gwf under the format (not power level) we expect from class?
the same method could be done in the feedback thread. having to repeat the same thing, sometimes being sympathetic, sometimes being aggressive in hopes to read took me a lot of pleasure from the game.
Exactly this. We already have too much class elitism going on as it is in both PvE and PvP. It's ridiculous. How do we know these "advocates" will comb the forums for the right posts to boost their class instead of making things work as intended? How do we know these people have the best interests of the community in their posts as opposed to "Well, MY class is the best so it should never have ANY changes". Or even if they've tried other classes to see how they play and get a feel for them so they know group synergy as opposed to 4/5 of one class in a single party because that's the state of the game in many cases. the truth is, we don't know.
I'd rather see a thread, a SINGLE THREAD PER CLASS with everything from people who play said classes to say what works and what doesn't, much like the feedback threads in the Preview server. Sadly, though, a lot of those don't seem to be read as much either.
Ultimately this might also become some kind of popularity contest. I'll bet some of those who've nominated themselves will go all out and post all over just to prove themselves.
I guess I'll have to wait and see who gets picked for what.
I have many alts, I am a class and race rainbow.
Doesn't matter, Raptor. The player base has no say in who gets chosen, and it's a volunteer clerical position not a position designed to speak for the class it's collecting posting comments for.
So, while it won't have the ability to do the good that a classic advocacy position might, it will also not have the ability to do any harm. Moot.
You can't nominate" yourself, you can volunteer yourself, which happens to be the *requirement*. All volunteers *must* announce their own interest in participating, then send answers to several question via PM to Akro. Hence, "nominating" anyone is a waste of time - that someone has to proactively volunteer. This is a clear example of rampant misinformation that spreads like the Ebola epidemic referenced in current events. It comes from the typical fear mongering that is prevalent in threads like this, whether it is intentional or not.
Generally speaking, as for the rest: I thought it was pretty clear from the initial announcement post and later verified in this thread by Akro and Gentleman Crush that this is a [secretary] job of gather and compile. It is not a means to proffer "advice" to the Devs and those devs will not take such 'advice' from any Advocate.
The Advocate is to comb the forums for class-specific threads, compile the content into an easy-to-read "report" with tallies. All of it: The good, bad, and ugly.
I am amazed at the fear mongering that goes on here and the intellectually-lazy who just jump onto those coattails for the ride without an ounce of their own vetting, turning one person with utterly wrong ideas into a throng of people with utterly wrong ideas.
If the concept of this [secretary] (Advocate) brings fear to your little hearts then you may have paranoia concerns you should have looked at, because even if the most biased, whacked-out agenda-based idea logs are selected for the job, the Devs will know it and fire them if they deviate from the intended and specific requirements of the "job".
Sure, "concern" is to be expected. Though many who use that word tend to express "fear" when describing that "concern". At the very least, this is how such comments read, whether that is what is actually happening or not.
This is an EXPERIMENT. If it doesn't work it will be disbanded and discontinued. I say let it happen. There is simply too much to "win" from it and very, very little to "lose" by it.
What I think the advocate should do is to make the weekly list of bullet points public, possibly opening a weekly thread on the relevant forum section. It will be very easy for everybody to check what he/she´s doing and people could offer further comments and possible clarifications to avoid misunderstandings. It will also be easy for the Mods to check the reactions on the thread and get a feeling about the alignment between the advocate and the other forum members. This will help avoiding hidden agendas becoming part of the game.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Gabriel, I think that's a solid approach and one I can endorse. Given what the position actually is and the described duties that's about as open and transparent as it's going to get from a process perspective.
thanks.