In California interns DO NOT get paid. Considering Cryptic is in California it's really the only state that matters. Interns get compensation via college credit, that is all. There has been a fairly recent movement to get this changed in the television industry. But it's yet to gain any real traction.
Creditability is lost when people say interns are free. This is a completely false stereotype. Interns have to be paid by law. Slave labor does not exist.
Credibility is lost when people claim that unpaid interns do not exist, in the state where the development of this game mostly happens
Hmm, giving a few specific individual players a voice in the development/balance process and expecting them to objectively speak for everyone else who plays their class? What could possibly go wrong? It's not like this could possibly lead to abuse and advancement of personal agendas and biases.
Hmm, giving a few specific individual players a voice in the development/balance process and expecting them to objectively speak for everyone else who plays their class? What could possibly go wrong? It's not like this could possibly lead to abuse and advancement of personal agendas and biases.
/sarcasm off
Terrible idea, IMHO.
Even WORSE, such players would almost inevitably get an idea of forthcoming nerf/buffs before the rest of the player base, and so this could be a very VERY profitable position for themselves and their friends/guildies.
And of course, if someone gets this position who has severe question marks about past behaviour with regrad to glitches/exploits/... then Cryptic could instantly lose the confidence of the majority of their player base.
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mircalla83Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 36
edited August 2014
Just look at EVE Online if you want to know what a 'privileged' player ends up being.
Either those people are a word in the dev's ear, to work the game towards THEIR playstyle, or they blatantly abuse insider knowledge - in EVE, the latter ended up with, for example, the CSM (priviledged player council) players getting a notice of a certain ship type getting a rework, so they nagged and directed the direction of this rework towards making this ship type significantly weaker against the fleet doctrine (aka 'Lineup') that the CSM members had been using inside their Powerblocks.
What I would do is see all the Official Feedback Threads about the class changes on MoD 4, there the Devs can see who are the people who are pro "Balance" instead of "Make my class OP". The people who said that some skills were too strong on their characters are clearly pro balance.
Why do you guys assume there will be someone picked with an agenda? Its pretty easy to tell if you read the last 10 posts made by a person if they have a hidden agenda or not or if they are trying to promote fair balance in the game....
First of all ayroux, let me say that I think your intent is to improve the game through fair and balanced changes. I have nominated you for class advocate because of that.
To be honest though, you do focus a bit too much on PVP when the casual players who have no voice are poorly represented in your opinions. This case is much much worse in a lot of the forum posters I have seen here. I have observed biased opinions and short-sighted arguments from a lot of people (including those who want to be class advocates) so I think the backlash from this idea is justified.
Terrible idea if implemented according to Akromatik's original post(s).
Player Councils are almost always made up of hardcore/lore-geek/PVPers/etc. that don't have any perspectives that would make the game better for casual players (even though casuals make up the vast majority of the player base). And you can't get a casual player to be an advocate because they don't have the time. That catch-22 is only one of the reasons why the concept is inherently flawed.
The time it would require for someone at Cryptic to audit the 'weekly report' (many posts in this thread point to why this is absolutely needed) would be just as time-consuming as if they would have just compiled the information themselves without a Class Advocate.
First of all ayroux, let me say that I think your intent is to improve the game through fair and balanced changes. I have nominated you for class advocate because of that.
To be honest though, you do focus a bit too much on PVP when the casual players who have no voice are poorly represented in your opinions. This case is much much worse in a lot of the forum posters I have seen here. I have observed biased opinions and short-sighted arguments from a lot of people (including those who want to be class advocates) so I think the backlash from this idea is justified.
Yes I agree. Part of my frustration with PVE at the moment is there is no challenge or dungeons that are even hard anymore! I used to run PVE all the time back when T1/T2 meant something, back when CN meant something. Then when MC came, Ive run that probably more than 100 times easily, but since then (mod 2) whats the point?
I will say though, in my submission to Akro I admitted this would be my only "Con" - that I am not as up to date on PVE, because again frankly, its so easy to outgear content its hard to even be able to have a "needed" voice.
That said, my idea still stands of a "mini-counsel" so hopefully those more PVE oriented will have some feedback to pass along. If they ever release better content, I will be one of the first to dive into it!
As to the "casual players" I do think balance starts from the top and trickles down. I dont think it works the other way.
ALL that said, a GF is in a pretty strong point for PVE at the moment with the massive group benefits, so atleast in the short term, PVE considerations would be much more about bugs and power fixes than any real "needed balance" issues. Although, again, I would be MORE than open to hearing suggestions.
Sorry, but I don't see this a a positive suggestion. Without some way to confirm/verify that an advocate is indeed speaking to players in his/her class this is too open to the abuse of one individual pushing their own agenda. It's just a bad idea.
Player Councils are almost always made up of hardcore/lore-geek/PVPers/etc.
They're not looking for the most aknowledged player of class X, they're looking for people with a good sense of impartiality.
The 'job' is make a resume of what most players of class X are talking about the class, not send suggestions.
(´･ ω ･`)
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2014
Passion and creativity are not required. If you are going to do this, which needed doing all along, then you hire some non-player to do it. All that is needed is someone to consolidate reports. Nothing artistic about it. You are NOT going to get that from a player.
All players with perspective have 'friends.' And opinions. And self-serving desires. And not one of those things are welcome in this sort of position.
All you need is someone with communication and data-entry skills, and a semi-logical brain. We don't need any more Chiefs of the Wannabee tribe.
Please stop trying to get free labor from the player base. Read the forum for a few minutes and you will see that the player base hates the player base. The player base will therefore never work in the player base's best interests. LOL.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
They're not looking for the most aknowledged player of class X, they're looking for people with a good sense of impartiality.
The 'job' is make a resume of what most players of class X are talking about the class, not send suggestions.
Right.
But who cares what the players are talking about? We are a whiny bunch of self-centered slobs. There are some notable exceptions which I will not note here, but for the most part we all suck. I think that's the problem here, and why some folks may think a player advocacy makes sense -- they have an unrealistic idea of human (especially MMO player style-human) nature.
There's no way I'm going to play a game I don't like... ?
They'll have an idea about what we want and will work on something that can satisfy everyone, doesn't matter if the feedback comes from haters or not. In your conception they're making the game for themselves and don't want money at all.
is not a bad idea. it is a great idea. if you authorize me to compile all "feedback gwf preview" in m2 / 3/4 I would be happy in the world since they gave me a promise that, from there, there would be a change.
I really can not understand how you can be dishonest in a summary. you will show the incline of the class (the constant behind the desire of players) and not propose the change itself (feet x now will do y).
SUMMARY.
what seems strange to me, and I'm expecting a gesture of good will, is to know the weight this will have. theoretically the feedbacks preview threads are supposedly read by the devs.
say "I want to hear the opinion of the players" always been told. I wonder know what has changed internally.
THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. and once again will not be answered.
There is also another possibility. but I will not even mention because is "conspiracy theory"
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited August 2014
Maybe each class should have a PvE and PvP advocate - since it's pretty difficult to recruit a player that can be seen as an authority/highly experienced in both areas.
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
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chaoscourtesanMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
One of the most disturbing parts is how people are talking about voting in the official threads.
Well, they included the word NOMINATION in the title when they meant VOLUNTEER, so it is to be expected.
I've changed my thinking on the whole thing though. Please put this in place as soon as possible. It will save me an incredible amount of time and heartache. I will be able to release myself from the fantasy that the things that I write are actually read or... considered. I will be able relax in the peace of knowing that whatever I type will go unseen, or be changed by someone's misinterpretation, or even deliberately misrepresented by someone with nothing to lose.
Oh well. It is what it is, and they will do as they will do.
Rhyon Cawdorian GWF | Opa Loka TR | Cormac Argentus III DC | Annika Thornblade GF | Aerys Skydark HR | Bartin Findlor TR | Aellia Baalthrall CW | Lucan Hawkmoon CW | Opa Brahk GWF | Korzbyrk DC | Den Kruk GWF | Jherek Skarsin CW |
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
is not a bad idea. it is a great idea. if you authorize me to compile all "feedback gwf preview" in m2 / 3/4 I would be happy in the world since they gave me a promise that, from there, there would be a change.
Sadly, I believe it is a partly clerical role. It would require the ability to communicate in a clear and unmangled manner. I'm not sure it would make others "happy in the world"(sic) to have things filtered that way.
The more I think about this idea the more troublesome it is , if one single person is chosen then they basically become a censor , every idea posted by a forum user should have a opportunity to be seen by the developers ( unless it is plain crazy idiot idea) but with a system like this in place with one single person in charge of compiling feedback for each class there is a massive danger of the advocate steering class development in the direction of their choosing by censoring any ideas they don't agree with or like .
If akromatik insists on only one person being chosen for each class then I really hope that the feedback they pass along to akromatik also gets posted on the forum so there is complete transparency about exactly what is being forwarded on to the development team.
Guildmates recommending each other, one-sided players (PvE or PvP) using their powers to make the better for their playing style. Yes, I see where this is going.
Sadly, I believe it is a partly clerical role. It would require the ability to communicate in a clear and unmangled manner. I'm not sure it would make others "happy in the world"(sic) to have things filtered that way.
my messages are translated by google ( usually you can seeme edit my posts 20,602,935,093 times )
but the above sentence ,that you understand, is just expression. I do not sent my "curriculum" (even intend), among other reasons, why I am aware that it must be hell to read what I write.;)
the point is whether this communication has real substance, or is just a mockery of forum... like now.
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited August 2014
Thing is that ppl doesn't understand that they only want a secretary so if you know tons of info about the class doesn't matter, all you have to do is gather info and send it to Akro, that's all. Also, there should be at least 2 advocates so every data relative to the same class should be the same, as soon as Akro notice that the date is different means that person is trying to do something wrong and shouldn't be in charge of that.
Thing is that ppl doesn't understand that they only want a secretary so if you know tons of info about the class doesn't matter, all you have to do is gather info and send it to Akro, that's all. Also, there should be at least 2 advocates so every data relative to the same class should be the same, as soon as Akro notice that the date is different means that person is trying to do something wrong and shouldn't be in charge of that.
That would make it harder but not impossible. A lot of the "pro" pvp'ers are volunteering, wouldn't exactly be hard to talk to each other and both falsify the same report.
This is one of the worst ideas ever. If the game goes towards this direction I am sure many people will leave after the classes start getting worse and worse.
This is one of the worst ideas ever. If the game goes towards this direction I am sure many people will leave after the classes start getting worse and worse.
Bit strongly put but perhaps not that unfair.
If this goes through as currently planned there will most likely be players (probably from one of the 'lucky' PvP guilds) who not only will be in a position to push their own personal/guild agendas but also will almost certainly have first access to potential forthcoming changes which will enable them and their guildies/friends to play everyone else in the market for fools.
Everyone so far fails to understand that this person only sends SUGGESTIONS. The only thing this "advocate" is going to be working towards are ideas, suggestions, and nothing more. And there is apsolutely no way that any suggestion of "clear advantage of a certain class over others" is going to be even considered.
This is the first time since I play this game that PW came trough and delivered the "mods<>players" connection that people have been begging for. Your responce? "Omg elections are going to be rigged, devs are going to blindly follow what advocates tell them and ruin the game." Think about this for a little.
I would rather see someone hired and paid for a player liaison position.
Much better idea. Feedback loops are bad. I mean the forums here represent a minority of the player base. And I think any such position would as well. What I would like to see (hell in any game) is maybe someone like ARko but instead of doing events has a regular event of just contacting random players. I mean totally random regardless of play time or experience. And then just asking them what they like and dislike about the game. That way the feedback is not modified by who's the squeekiest wheel.
Comments
Credibility is lost when people claim that unpaid interns do not exist, in the state where the development of this game mostly happens
/sarcasm off
Terrible idea, IMHO.
Even WORSE, such players would almost inevitably get an idea of forthcoming nerf/buffs before the rest of the player base, and so this could be a very VERY profitable position for themselves and their friends/guildies.
And of course, if someone gets this position who has severe question marks about past behaviour with regrad to glitches/exploits/... then Cryptic could instantly lose the confidence of the majority of their player base.
Either those people are a word in the dev's ear, to work the game towards THEIR playstyle, or they blatantly abuse insider knowledge - in EVE, the latter ended up with, for example, the CSM (priviledged player council) players getting a notice of a certain ship type getting a rework, so they nagged and directed the direction of this rework towards making this ship type significantly weaker against the fleet doctrine (aka 'Lineup') that the CSM members had been using inside their Powerblocks.
First of all ayroux, let me say that I think your intent is to improve the game through fair and balanced changes. I have nominated you for class advocate because of that.
To be honest though, you do focus a bit too much on PVP when the casual players who have no voice are poorly represented in your opinions. This case is much much worse in a lot of the forum posters I have seen here. I have observed biased opinions and short-sighted arguments from a lot of people (including those who want to be class advocates) so I think the backlash from this idea is justified.
Player Councils are almost always made up of hardcore/lore-geek/PVPers/etc. that don't have any perspectives that would make the game better for casual players (even though casuals make up the vast majority of the player base). And you can't get a casual player to be an advocate because they don't have the time. That catch-22 is only one of the reasons why the concept is inherently flawed.
The time it would require for someone at Cryptic to audit the 'weekly report' (many posts in this thread point to why this is absolutely needed) would be just as time-consuming as if they would have just compiled the information themselves without a Class Advocate.
Sorry, it's just a terrible idea.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Yes I agree. Part of my frustration with PVE at the moment is there is no challenge or dungeons that are even hard anymore! I used to run PVE all the time back when T1/T2 meant something, back when CN meant something. Then when MC came, Ive run that probably more than 100 times easily, but since then (mod 2) whats the point?
I will say though, in my submission to Akro I admitted this would be my only "Con" - that I am not as up to date on PVE, because again frankly, its so easy to outgear content its hard to even be able to have a "needed" voice.
That said, my idea still stands of a "mini-counsel" so hopefully those more PVE oriented will have some feedback to pass along. If they ever release better content, I will be one of the first to dive into it!
As to the "casual players" I do think balance starts from the top and trickles down. I dont think it works the other way.
ALL that said, a GF is in a pretty strong point for PVE at the moment with the massive group benefits, so atleast in the short term, PVE considerations would be much more about bugs and power fixes than any real "needed balance" issues. Although, again, I would be MORE than open to hearing suggestions.
They're not looking for the most aknowledged player of class X, they're looking for people with a good sense of impartiality.
The 'job' is make a resume of what most players of class X are talking about the class, not send suggestions.
All players with perspective have 'friends.' And opinions. And self-serving desires. And not one of those things are welcome in this sort of position.
All you need is someone with communication and data-entry skills, and a semi-logical brain. We don't need any more Chiefs of the Wannabee tribe.
Please stop trying to get free labor from the player base. Read the forum for a few minutes and you will see that the player base hates the player base. The player base will therefore never work in the player base's best interests. LOL.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Right.
But who cares what the players are talking about? We are a whiny bunch of self-centered slobs. There are some notable exceptions which I will not note here, but for the most part we all suck. I think that's the problem here, and why some folks may think a player advocacy makes sense -- they have an unrealistic idea of human (especially MMO player style-human) nature.
There's no way I'm going to play a game I don't like... ?
They'll have an idea about what we want and will work on something that can satisfy everyone, doesn't matter if the feedback comes from haters or not. In your conception they're making the game for themselves and don't want money at all.
I really can not understand how you can be dishonest in a summary. you will show the incline of the class (the constant behind the desire of players) and not propose the change itself (feet x now will do y).
SUMMARY.
what seems strange to me, and I'm expecting a gesture of good will, is to know the weight this will have. theoretically the feedbacks preview threads are supposedly read by the devs.
say "I want to hear the opinion of the players" always been told. I wonder know what has changed internally.
THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION. and once again will not be answered.
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Well, they included the word NOMINATION in the title when they meant VOLUNTEER, so it is to be expected.
I've changed my thinking on the whole thing though. Please put this in place as soon as possible. It will save me an incredible amount of time and heartache. I will be able to release myself from the fantasy that the things that I write are actually read or... considered. I will be able relax in the peace of knowing that whatever I type will go unseen, or be changed by someone's misinterpretation, or even deliberately misrepresented by someone with nothing to lose.
Oh well. It is what it is, and they will do as they will do.
Roland Mac Sheonin GF | Tarron Direheart SW |
Sadly, I believe it is a partly clerical role. It would require the ability to communicate in a clear and unmangled manner. I'm not sure it would make others "happy in the world"(sic) to have things filtered that way.
If akromatik insists on only one person being chosen for each class then I really hope that the feedback they pass along to akromatik also gets posted on the forum so there is complete transparency about exactly what is being forwarded on to the development team.
1 advocate for each class is a bad idea.
WTB Class Reroll please
my messages are translated by google ( usually you can seeme edit my posts 20,602,935,093 times )
but the above sentence ,that you understand, is just expression. I do not sent my "curriculum" (even intend), among other reasons, why I am aware that it must be hell to read what I write.;)
the point is whether this communication has real substance, or is just a mockery of forum... like now.
That would make it harder but not impossible. A lot of the "pro" pvp'ers are volunteering, wouldn't exactly be hard to talk to each other and both falsify the same report.
Bit strongly put but perhaps not that unfair.
If this goes through as currently planned there will most likely be players (probably from one of the 'lucky' PvP guilds) who not only will be in a position to push their own personal/guild agendas but also will almost certainly have first access to potential forthcoming changes which will enable them and their guildies/friends to play everyone else in the market for fools.
This is the first time since I play this game that PW came trough and delivered the "mods<>players" connection that people have been begging for. Your responce? "Omg elections are going to be rigged, devs are going to blindly follow what advocates tell them and ruin the game." Think about this for a little.
Much better idea. Feedback loops are bad. I mean the forums here represent a minority of the player base. And I think any such position would as well. What I would like to see (hell in any game) is maybe someone like ARko but instead of doing events has a regular event of just contacting random players. I mean totally random regardless of play time or experience. And then just asking them what they like and dislike about the game. That way the feedback is not modified by who's the squeekiest wheel.