There is a reason why the president has a cabinet.
The devs do read the forums, but there is a lot of noise. Smaller groups with more direct communications have immeasurable benefits to the games they have been incorporated to. In fact I am surprised to hear so much naysaying because many MMOs use these types of systems as an additional means to collect feedback.
Right now there are currently five non-employed advocates. Their names are Ambisinisterr, Zebular, Melodywhr and Lewstelemon along with a community member who has worked tirelessly to compile bug reports.
Class advocates will more or less expand this list out to get a wider range of views and opinions. But even then, class advocates will only have a more direct line. Their opinions will be no better than anybody else's.
When I don't like something I can not simply say that...well I can but it doesn't mean much. There has to be a reference for community opinions for it to have any weight.
And let me put this bold and clear to read: Class Advocates are not replacing the forums. They are a means to give a more direct line of communication and discussion in addition to the forums.
To go back to my opening statement, the president can not listen to everybody. It is just not possible. So the president builds a smaller cabinet of people which can help express the concerns of the people with a more direct line of communication. Big companies such as the one I work for do the same thing with Safety Comities and Round Tables where upper management is able to have an open and direct line of communication with a smaller group which is just not possible with a large group.
Class Advocates are a communication tool and frankly the best thing to happen for the community and the future of the game in a long time.
Ok here's the thing with all of that. There is a statement I've heard in politics "access to power, is power." The dev's in this case are the ones with power. Giving a more direct access gives an individual more power just because they can make their voice heard above the noise. This is the part that has us worried.
Additionally, I promise you my feedback means nothing more to the devs. It really doesn't and it's not wishful thinking. The very first thing I have to supply is not numbers but support. The same will be needed from advocates. Compile a list of major concerns and show examples of people agreeing and disagreeing with you.
And just to stomp out the mis-information...
This was not requested by the developers. This was something Akromatik wanted to do for some time now which Zeb and I had wanted done basically from the start of the game.
And all the fear about personal agendas...
The only way that won't come into play is if you listen to nobody. Even right now hearing the petty arguments sends my head spinning because everybody is looking from a personal perspective that oft times blinds them from the big picture.
The only means to squash agendas is not to close the door but to open them to a wider range but that doesn't mean having a room full of screaming people. It means gathering feedback from a larger variety of ways and class advocates are just one more way to gather feedback. It's not a replacement for the forums or social media sites, it is an additional tool to gather from a smaller group of players who are passionate about the game.
Yes the way to eliminate personal agenda's is to make the feedback from a larger audience. The worry is that this is doing the opposite and shrinking who is going to be giving the feedback. It feels like we're moving the wrong way with this.
The downfall to any western civilization can be traced to a point wherein the citizenry was allowed to spend tax money.
Giving the players any kind of voice in this game's inner workings besides bug reporting is asking for a great deal of trouble. We do not deserve even the smallest amount of trust with the vision of how this game is "supposed" to be. We have proven, as a body, that we are selfish, cruel, shortsighted, overly-biased, unrepentant, boorish, impatient, undisciplined, and self-contradicting.
I think if this idea is being seriously considered at the corporate level AT ALL someone needs to get their head examined.
I'm not kidding.
Hopefully, this is kind of a late April Fool's joke or more of the "throw them what they think is a bone, but ignore them" kind of thing like what happened with the preview feedback.
Bug reports. Nothing more. And even those, double check to make sure we aren't lying our asses off.
I'm still not kidding. I know us.
Everybody lies.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2014
Not a larger audience, a larger variety of collection points.
Not a larger audience, a larger variety of collection points.
mmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yes and no. The difference between collection points and audience is there, but they're still close in meaning. It's still enough to be concerned. I think this idea can work but I think there needs to also be some kind of transparency for it as well. I wouldn't trust myself to be without bias even if I tried and that means I really wouldn't trust anyone else. Some transparency of the feedback would let us "report" egregious bias. Now how to keep that from turning into a whole other headache like the feedback threads were for you I'm not sure. I don't have all the answers for this, I'd like to see it work but the flaws I see concern me.
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited August 2014
I have a hard time swallowing this idea.
I do not like the notion of giving my voice to a class advocate and sitting back in silence because my consent was given to another to voice my feelings for me.
This is going to rip open a rift for all players.
Some will be saying
what is the class advocates /played time in game?
why are they class advocate, because they have a larger friend base rooting for them?
Populartity does not = right for the job
We have said all we need to say on feedback for two years now.
Have a PE person compile our issues and build a model around it that we all can accept.
Don't try to say well we gave you the choice of class advocate and your advocate thinks this is best.
NO.
You have to accept responsibility for your own game, creations, failure, successes.
First things first.
Never listen to a player that complains about balance when they do not know how to use their skills properly in combat.
Never listen to a player that has not tried all the skills of their class.
Never listen to a player that complains about balance that has less than 10 days /played time.
Good luck in trying to fix what you are about to break.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
It sounds like a good idea on paper but I've seen players ideas, thoughts and how they see things and I get kinda scared that someone with really bad opinions would get this position.
This is my major concern , all it takes is for somebody with bad intentions to get a spot call for a bunch of damage reductions at the same time as playing another class , if this is going to happen there have to be checks that the players involved spend at least 75% of their game time playing the class they wish to advocate for . There are far far far too many Trolls on the forum saying that they play a particular class when infact they do not.
I have to say, after reading some more of the replies here, that I am totally against this idea. This sounds to me like putting a democratic spin on this game's development, which should not be a democracy. I could be totally wrong and this could lead to good things, but if the advocate gets too much power then no, this is a bad thing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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This is a bad idea. A really, REALLY, bad idea. Has nobody at Cryptic read the dross that gets posted on here disguised as 'feedback'?
Quite. You think the devs have funny ideas about PvP? The players make them look like geniuses. Heaven help us when "one of the seven GF masters" or the green ink/comic sans brigade chimes in, you'll actually feel your IQ dropping.
I know that this game is in a weird state right now, with both PvE and PvP more skewed and broken in mod 4 than it ever has been before, but it's as a result of long-overdue attempts to fix things, at least. That's progress, even if it doesn't feel like it right now. The rubble is still bouncing, I admit, but the game is still shiny and fun.
i think you should give the job to cryptic staff, rather than sending in an report, that is maybe never correctly forwarded to the devs, they could attend the meetings, furthermore they should manage the feedback threads for the class, with an frequently updated post with the current feedback directions.
i think the main problem with the feedback thread is that they are unmanaged, they have many different topics/discussion in the same thread, so they end up in more spam than feedback.
If they where managed, had a list of the current feedback at the start and all discussion would be split in new threads, than everyone could take part without reading 100 pages full of spam and 5 feedback post.
i think the main problem with the feedback thread is that they are unmanaged, they have many different topics/discussion in the same thread, so they end up in more spam than feedback.
I'm pretty sure this is the main problem and probably the reason they are thinking of using this idea , during the run up to module four gentlemancrush posted on his twitter feed that he was having to trawl through every class feedback thread every morning when he got into the office and that it was taking two to three hours , can you imagine having to read and digest all that nonsense and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> every morning for two hours ,it would be enough to drive anybody insane
If they do choose to go down the route of using experienced players then I would be more comfortable if they had maybe four or five of each class who could consult with the rest of us then with each other before passing anything on to akromatik , this would also make it obvious if anybody was trolling and not doing a proper job.
First of all it will require someone with integrity.
Second - it will require someone with the time and resolve to put in a lot of work.
If you read the description of the 'job' carefully, you can see the primary purpose is to (help CM and Devs) keep up on feedback happening in the forums by (more or less) gathering all that information up and filtering out any non-relevant information to get the meat of the feedback and present it in a bullet form. Obviously you can add your own commentary.
As for it being someone who is PVP or PVE only - that's a moot point if giving what is requested: gather, compile, present.
But in the end, it will require someone with integrity and also who is on the passionate side about their particular chosen class.
OH, and though those threads are titled "nomination" - it's misnomer. It's more like "volunteer" because you have to first post in the thread that you are actually interested in doing this, then answer Akro's questions in detail through a PM. I'm already seeing people blindly nominating other people (blind to the people being nominated) and one who posted his PM in the thread itself (leads me to wonder if that person can follow directions). LOL
You are *required* to nominate yourself.
-ahem-
[EDIT: fixing some autocorrupt word-replacements, etc.]
EDIT to add: also if you read the description carefully, this is more about "what direction to take the class" - and not so much about "how to fix existing complaints" about a class. So even a majority of feedback in this very thread are made by people who are not paying close attention to just what is being asked for in the original requests.
Possibly some knee-jerk emotional reaction: I get it. But I would ask anyone who has contributed to this thread (and the original "volunteer" threads) to take a deep breath, calm yourself, and *carefully* read exactly what is being asked for from these *volunteers*. It may not be quite what you are be thinking - at least not as the primary purpose.
(leads me to wonder if that person can follow directions). LOL
LMFAO , this was one of the key things they asked for when recruiting Game Sage's for Aeria games games , on the monthly recruitment thread they would post exact instructions explaining what you had to do to apply , the number of people who took absolutely no notice whatsoever and posted applications on the thread itself was actually quite hysterical and rather sad all at the same time lol.
I don't have an issue with having a Class Advocate. However, I am sure that there are separate issues to be looked at.
I would suggest having a Pair or a group of Advocates that discuss the feedback prior to submitting to the Devs. Why? There are two types of Control Wizards in this game. PvE Wizards and PvP Wizards.
As someone who solely pvps, I don't want to see the Class advocate be a pure PvE wizard. Likewise I would not expect PvE wizards to sit down and take a solely PvP wizard as their Class advocate.
As each type of wizard runs into different problems, Because of this, either a council is necessary, or the Class advocates need to Pvp and Pve on regular occasions and be familiar with both styles of wizardry (so to speak).
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Furthermore, it is also just naive wishful thinking to think that the advocates will be merely impartial unbiased conduits of information. Like in every other situation in real life, the job of an *advocate* isn't to present both sides of an issue fairly, but instead to push for his/her particular agenda, framing the issue in a light most positive to the advocate's position and most negative to the advocate's opponents. And the deciding factor of which advocate "wins" isn't much based on the quality of the evidence, but instead is based overwhelmingly on which advocate did a better job of framing the issue and manipulating the discussion.
I am opposed to this idea of 'class advocates' and had intended to write a longer post detailing why. But pointsman has done that very well, better than I could have done it. In the GF nomination thread there are already players waiting first in line to become a class advocate, who are precisely NOT the players you would like to see at such a position. It is tragic that the people who want such positions are more than often exactly the people who are most unfit for the job.
I am opposed to this idea of 'class advocates' and had intended to write a longer post detailing why. But pointsman has done that very well, better than I could have done it. In the GF nomination thread there are already players waiting first in line to become a class advocate, who are precisely NOT the players you would like to see at such a position. It is tragic that the people who want such positions are more than often exactly the people who are most unfit for the job.
Possibly true, but there is a reason why in real life, the type of people who are most attracted to positions of power are usually like this.
I don't really see how this can be avoided as if it becomes a player vote, then the person with the most guildies or alts will win.
Personally such a position should be only for producing summaries and nothing else. In fact it would be best if Cryptic hired someone to do this....
Seriously, I think this would be best. Get an intern from the local college and you don't even have to pay them.
Or just find someone wanting to work to get experience in game development who is prepared to work for minimum wage. They can do other stuff too, but let this be part of their remit. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.....
Seriously, I think this would be best. Get an intern from the local college and you don't even have to pay them.
I respectfully disagree with you, an intern would definitely lack passion and first person perspective and have zero way of determining the good feedback from the bad.
If all you wanted was someone to compile feedback into bullet points sure.
If they want someone to compile the GOOD feedback and leave the bad, an intern cannot do this.
Overall this is a good idea IF and only IF this advocate is actually listened to!!! Thats the big caveat here. If the advocates are selected correctly, I almost guarantee they will create a "council" amongst themselves to discuss potential changes to get input/feedback about how that will also affect other classes.
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
So the way I think it NEEDS to be seen and approached by the correct people is the advocate should seek other "advocates" that they trust for their class, to help collect feedback, THEN meet (maybe once a week) to postulate with other classes any considerations for changes, then present THAT to Akro and the DEV team.
What I STRONGLY encourage them to do when deciding is to do some homework on the player first. Doing that now, will save you alot of time in the future. There are people who can and have given great objective feedback about their class, posing both buffs and nerfs not looking for just OPness but true balance.
I can speak for a large group of people I know who just want balance in this game, nothing more. This is a great idea IF implemented correctly and we (the players) may FINALLY have a good advocate with the DEVs - something that has been NEEDED since OB.
If all you wanted was someone to compile feedback into bullet points sure.
If they want someone to compile the GOOD feedback and leave the bad, an intern cannot do this.
And this is why having a player do it is a horrible idea. They will cut out feedback they don't agree with. They will have an agenda, and they will have bias. Your reason for not having an intern do it, is the reason to have an intern do it.
Seriously, I think this would be best. Get an intern from the local college and you don't even have to pay them.
Quite. Far preferable to someone from the player base, strutting egotists with agendas (normally in ugly colours in an angry forum sig) and a wild overestimation of their own insight and ability. Brr...
(There are a few people around here who I'd trust to do it, regardless of how I feel about them personally, but they will by definition be too sensible to put themselves forward, or too busy.)
I respectfully disagree with you, an intern would definitely lack passion and first person perspective and have zero way of determining the good feedback from the bad.
If all you wanted was someone to compile feedback into bullet points sure.
If they want someone to compile the GOOD feedback and leave the bad, an intern cannot do this.
The point is that while an intern might not have the passion that is not necessarily a BAD thing. They are much more likely to just summarize and leave it at that.
The nightmare scenario we are facing is that people with with an agenda or severe biases get these positions and then 'filter' the information.
At least an intern has a decent incentive to try to remain somewhat neutral.....
Why do you guys assume there will be someone picked with an agenda? Its pretty easy to tell if you read the last 10 posts made by a person if they have a hidden agenda or not or if they are trying to promote fair balance in the game....
Like I said, all of this is predicated on the notion that they do their homework on a player, not only look at his/her achievements in game, play history, join date, leaderboards, forum history etc.
Its not hard to tell. Also I think there ARE alot of players who are willing to do this who are ALSO willing to leave out their own bias. Its one thing to say here are my opinions, but compiling feedback is another. If they pick the right people who can be objective it will be MUCH better than trying to hire someone without the know how to get real feedback.
Part of the reason we are here today is (no disrespect DEVs) but they are not "elite" players. They dont honestly know what feedback is good and can only judge it based on their own limited perspective.
What they need are seasoned veterans who know good versus bad feedback who can weed out the players who frankly dont know what they are talking about.
Its not like they are going to just flip a coin and BAM class advocate. hopefully they do some research before selecting someone and then its up to that classes community to make their voices heard.
Any bad representative will be EASILY noticed by the other reps and called out. It will also be apparent to the DEVs if a player is just pushing their own classes agenda versus truly being objective about the class.
Why do you guys assume there will be someone picked with an agenda? Its pretty easy to tell if you read the last 10 posts made by a person if they have a hidden agenda or not or if they are trying to promote fair balance in the game....
Because we have seen just how well things have balanced things before, usually by avoiding good advice and listening to bad advice. So at best this appointment will be pot luck, at worst.....
Why do you guys assume there will be someone picked with an agenda?
I do not trust the players to NOT inject their personal agendas into whatever feedback is delivered.
ALREADY, PVPers use the feedback forums not to offer helpful advice but to attempt to manipulate the devs to accept their point of view. Why on earth would this behavior change if these people are given positions of authority?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2014
Creditability is lost when people say interns are free. This is a completely false stereotype. Interns have to be paid by law. Slave labor does not exist.
Creditability is lost when people say interns are free. This is a completely false stereotype. Interns have to be paid by law. Slave labor does not exist.
This may vary from state to state then. I have been an unpaid intern.
Creditability is lost when people say interns are free. This is a completely false stereotype. Interns have to be paid by law. Slave labor does not exist.
When I did my internship at the hospital I was not paid a dime. In fact, you could say that I paid THEM for the privilege of being around a hospital work environment and learning the ropes. (College isn't free)
Anyway, I see some of us still think that having a "Master Compiler" of forum posts is a good idea. I will jump on board and throw my weight behind this if Cryptic promises me unabashedly that a full 100% of the input provided to them through this avenue is summarily ignored without even the faintest consideration.
It must be a dog and pony show, designed to mollify the loudest of us in the asylum, and be nothing of any true influence.
Art, Creativity, Vision -- these are not things made in a committee with advocates and voting. Have a strong vision and stick with it... don't cowtow to the lowest common denominator (us) and give us any say in this! If we don't like it, tough. You gotta be strong, man.
But seriously, giving the players any actual input is a terrible terrible terrible idea. (unless it's just for show)
Let us report bugs. Listen to THAT stuff. FIX THAT STUFF.
Comments
Ok here's the thing with all of that. There is a statement I've heard in politics "access to power, is power." The dev's in this case are the ones with power. Giving a more direct access gives an individual more power just because they can make their voice heard above the noise. This is the part that has us worried.
Yes the way to eliminate personal agenda's is to make the feedback from a larger audience. The worry is that this is doing the opposite and shrinking who is going to be giving the feedback. It feels like we're moving the wrong way with this.
Everybody lies.
mmmmmmmhhhhhhhhhhhh
Yes and no. The difference between collection points and audience is there, but they're still close in meaning. It's still enough to be concerned. I think this idea can work but I think there needs to also be some kind of transparency for it as well. I wouldn't trust myself to be without bias even if I tried and that means I really wouldn't trust anyone else. Some transparency of the feedback would let us "report" egregious bias. Now how to keep that from turning into a whole other headache like the feedback threads were for you I'm not sure. I don't have all the answers for this, I'd like to see it work but the flaws I see concern me.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I do not like the notion of giving my voice to a class advocate and sitting back in silence because my consent was given to another to voice my feelings for me.
This is going to rip open a rift for all players.
Some will be saying
what is the class advocates /played time in game?
why are they class advocate, because they have a larger friend base rooting for them?
Populartity does not = right for the job
We have said all we need to say on feedback for two years now.
Have a PE person compile our issues and build a model around it that we all can accept.
Don't try to say well we gave you the choice of class advocate and your advocate thinks this is best.
NO.
You have to accept responsibility for your own game, creations, failure, successes.
First things first.
Never listen to a player that complains about balance when they do not know how to use their skills properly in combat.
Never listen to a player that has not tried all the skills of their class.
Never listen to a player that complains about balance that has less than 10 days /played time.
Good luck in trying to fix what you are about to break.
This is my major concern , all it takes is for somebody with bad intentions to get a spot call for a bunch of damage reductions at the same time as playing another class , if this is going to happen there have to be checks that the players involved spend at least 75% of their game time playing the class they wish to advocate for . There are far far far too many Trolls on the forum saying that they play a particular class when infact they do not.
This community is simply not mature enough to handle this kind of arrangement. It's too full of pure trolls for one thing.
Also - self nomination? There is an old and very true adage that anyone who volunteers for a position of power should never be allowed to have one...
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Quite. You think the devs have funny ideas about PvP? The players make them look like geniuses. Heaven help us when "one of the seven GF masters" or the green ink/comic sans brigade chimes in, you'll actually feel your IQ dropping.
I know that this game is in a weird state right now, with both PvE and PvP more skewed and broken in mod 4 than it ever has been before, but it's as a result of long-overdue attempts to fix things, at least. That's progress, even if it doesn't feel like it right now. The rubble is still bouncing, I admit, but the game is still shiny and fun.
i think the main problem with the feedback thread is that they are unmanaged, they have many different topics/discussion in the same thread, so they end up in more spam than feedback.
If they where managed, had a list of the current feedback at the start and all discussion would be split in new threads, than everyone could take part without reading 100 pages full of spam and 5 feedback post.
I'm pretty sure this is the main problem and probably the reason they are thinking of using this idea , during the run up to module four gentlemancrush posted on his twitter feed that he was having to trawl through every class feedback thread every morning when he got into the office and that it was taking two to three hours , can you imagine having to read and digest all that nonsense and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> every morning for two hours ,it would be enough to drive anybody insane
If they do choose to go down the route of using experienced players then I would be more comfortable if they had maybe four or five of each class who could consult with the rest of us then with each other before passing anything on to akromatik , this would also make it obvious if anybody was trolling and not doing a proper job.
First of all it will require someone with integrity.
Second - it will require someone with the time and resolve to put in a lot of work.
If you read the description of the 'job' carefully, you can see the primary purpose is to (help CM and Devs) keep up on feedback happening in the forums by (more or less) gathering all that information up and filtering out any non-relevant information to get the meat of the feedback and present it in a bullet form. Obviously you can add your own commentary.
As for it being someone who is PVP or PVE only - that's a moot point if giving what is requested: gather, compile, present.
But in the end, it will require someone with integrity and also who is on the passionate side about their particular chosen class.
OH, and though those threads are titled "nomination" - it's misnomer. It's more like "volunteer" because you have to first post in the thread that you are actually interested in doing this, then answer Akro's questions in detail through a PM. I'm already seeing people blindly nominating other people (blind to the people being nominated) and one who posted his PM in the thread itself (leads me to wonder if that person can follow directions). LOL
You are *required* to nominate yourself.
-ahem-
[EDIT: fixing some autocorrupt word-replacements, etc.]
EDIT to add: also if you read the description carefully, this is more about "what direction to take the class" - and not so much about "how to fix existing complaints" about a class. So even a majority of feedback in this very thread are made by people who are not paying close attention to just what is being asked for in the original requests.
Possibly some knee-jerk emotional reaction: I get it. But I would ask anyone who has contributed to this thread (and the original "volunteer" threads) to take a deep breath, calm yourself, and *carefully* read exactly what is being asked for from these *volunteers*. It may not be quite what you are be thinking - at least not as the primary purpose.
LMFAO , this was one of the key things they asked for when recruiting Game Sage's for Aeria games games , on the monthly recruitment thread they would post exact instructions explaining what you had to do to apply , the number of people who took absolutely no notice whatsoever and posted applications on the thread itself was actually quite hysterical and rather sad all at the same time lol.
I would suggest having a Pair or a group of Advocates that discuss the feedback prior to submitting to the Devs. Why? There are two types of Control Wizards in this game. PvE Wizards and PvP Wizards.
As someone who solely pvps, I don't want to see the Class advocate be a pure PvE wizard. Likewise I would not expect PvE wizards to sit down and take a solely PvP wizard as their Class advocate.
As each type of wizard runs into different problems, Because of this, either a council is necessary, or the Class advocates need to Pvp and Pve on regular occasions and be familiar with both styles of wizardry (so to speak).
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
I am opposed to this idea of 'class advocates' and had intended to write a longer post detailing why. But pointsman has done that very well, better than I could have done it. In the GF nomination thread there are already players waiting first in line to become a class advocate, who are precisely NOT the players you would like to see at such a position. It is tragic that the people who want such positions are more than often exactly the people who are most unfit for the job.
This is an extremely important point that is often underrated.
Possibly true, but there is a reason why in real life, the type of people who are most attracted to positions of power are usually like this.
I don't really see how this can be avoided as if it becomes a player vote, then the person with the most guildies or alts will win.
Personally such a position should be only for producing summaries and nothing else. In fact it would be best if Cryptic hired someone to do this....
Seriously, I think this would be best. Get an intern from the local college and you don't even have to pay them.
Or just find someone wanting to work to get experience in game development who is prepared to work for minimum wage. They can do other stuff too, but let this be part of their remit. Sounds like a win-win situation to me.....
I respectfully disagree with you, an intern would definitely lack passion and first person perspective and have zero way of determining the good feedback from the bad.
If all you wanted was someone to compile feedback into bullet points sure.
If they want someone to compile the GOOD feedback and leave the bad, an intern cannot do this.
Overall this is a good idea IF and only IF this advocate is actually listened to!!! Thats the big caveat here. If the advocates are selected correctly, I almost guarantee they will create a "council" amongst themselves to discuss potential changes to get input/feedback about how that will also affect other classes.
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
So the way I think it NEEDS to be seen and approached by the correct people is the advocate should seek other "advocates" that they trust for their class, to help collect feedback, THEN meet (maybe once a week) to postulate with other classes any considerations for changes, then present THAT to Akro and the DEV team.
What I STRONGLY encourage them to do when deciding is to do some homework on the player first. Doing that now, will save you alot of time in the future. There are people who can and have given great objective feedback about their class, posing both buffs and nerfs not looking for just OPness but true balance.
I can speak for a large group of people I know who just want balance in this game, nothing more. This is a great idea IF implemented correctly and we (the players) may FINALLY have a good advocate with the DEVs - something that has been NEEDED since OB.
Quite. Far preferable to someone from the player base, strutting egotists with agendas (normally in ugly colours in an angry forum sig) and a wild overestimation of their own insight and ability. Brr...
(There are a few people around here who I'd trust to do it, regardless of how I feel about them personally, but they will by definition be too sensible to put themselves forward, or too busy.)
The point is that while an intern might not have the passion that is not necessarily a BAD thing. They are much more likely to just summarize and leave it at that.
The nightmare scenario we are facing is that people with with an agenda or severe biases get these positions and then 'filter' the information.
At least an intern has a decent incentive to try to remain somewhat neutral.....
EDIT:
LOL Doubled Ninja'd
Class Advocates trying to make their class better.
Normal Scenario:
Class Advocates producing summaries and nothing else.
Best Scenario:
Class Advocates producing good summaries and really want some really good balance.
Like I said, all of this is predicated on the notion that they do their homework on a player, not only look at his/her achievements in game, play history, join date, leaderboards, forum history etc.
Its not hard to tell. Also I think there ARE alot of players who are willing to do this who are ALSO willing to leave out their own bias. Its one thing to say here are my opinions, but compiling feedback is another. If they pick the right people who can be objective it will be MUCH better than trying to hire someone without the know how to get real feedback.
Part of the reason we are here today is (no disrespect DEVs) but they are not "elite" players. They dont honestly know what feedback is good and can only judge it based on their own limited perspective.
What they need are seasoned veterans who know good versus bad feedback who can weed out the players who frankly dont know what they are talking about.
Its not like they are going to just flip a coin and BAM class advocate. hopefully they do some research before selecting someone and then its up to that classes community to make their voices heard.
Any bad representative will be EASILY noticed by the other reps and called out. It will also be apparent to the DEVs if a player is just pushing their own classes agenda versus truly being objective about the class.
Because we have seen just how well things have balanced things before, usually by avoiding good advice and listening to bad advice. So at best this appointment will be pot luck, at worst.....
I do not trust the players to NOT inject their personal agendas into whatever feedback is delivered.
ALREADY, PVPers use the feedback forums not to offer helpful advice but to attempt to manipulate the devs to accept their point of view. Why on earth would this behavior change if these people are given positions of authority?
This may vary from state to state then. I have been an unpaid intern.
When I did my internship at the hospital I was not paid a dime. In fact, you could say that I paid THEM for the privilege of being around a hospital work environment and learning the ropes. (College isn't free)
Anyway, I see some of us still think that having a "Master Compiler" of forum posts is a good idea. I will jump on board and throw my weight behind this if Cryptic promises me unabashedly that a full 100% of the input provided to them through this avenue is summarily ignored without even the faintest consideration.
It must be a dog and pony show, designed to mollify the loudest of us in the asylum, and be nothing of any true influence.
Art, Creativity, Vision -- these are not things made in a committee with advocates and voting. Have a strong vision and stick with it... don't cowtow to the lowest common denominator (us) and give us any say in this! If we don't like it, tough. You gotta be strong, man.
But seriously, giving the players any actual input is a terrible terrible terrible idea. (unless it's just for show)
Let us report bugs. Listen to THAT stuff. FIX THAT STUFF.