There are actually 2 problems here we are looking at.
Firstly, Guardian Block is not always blocking CC that comes in from the front like it is supposed to, so we are looking at that independent of Wizard CC potential.
Secondly, Wizards are getting a little *too* much chain CC potential. Given this we are looking at adding a duration after being frozen where you are immune to Chill Stacks. This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for. This will mean landing a successful Shatter Strike on the target will give them a little longer safe time before they can be controlled again.
The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters. This means that wizards can lock down a large number of foes but cannot do it forever. It is important to note that multiple wizards will SHARE this lockout, so it cannot be subverted by stacking more wizards.
We want controlling foes to be a powerful utility without totally disabling gameplay for everyone else.
Thank you for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
3 seconds in PvP is a long time for a CW and 5 seconds is even longer in PvE. I think maybe you should lower it to 2 second for players and 3 seconds for PvE and then nerf Oppressor shatter a little bit. Because with 3 seconds you nerf all CWs and not just oppressor. A Thaum CW cant chain CC like oppressor, so that tree should not get as much nerf as the Oppressor.
You also need to fix our shard. The shard is the most useless power now for dungeons and PvP. Every single CW in PvP Is using the exact same encounters now and that was the direct opposite what you wanted when you nerfed the shard according to your own statement.
"We looked at letting damage divide down by number of targets but we found the same problem. It was pretty close to always a right choice and that didn't feel appropriate with one of the cornerstones of the Wizard philosophy in PNP (which is Preparing spells and being flexible with your casting choices)"
just a little clarification, does that mean that if i shatter an enemy for 5 second (oppressor capstone) when shatter ends they are immune for 5 second before chill start to stack again? so for a 5 second shatter i then have a 8 second gap before shatter kicks in again? please consider this change for thauma and renegade cw's because i specced into oppressor to be able to run dg's in a party where i am the only cw and with this change i couldn't help them anymore. thauma's have dps, let oppressors have control
That is correct, after the shatter ends they would be immune to new stacks of chill for 3 seconds (for a total of 8 seconds of immunity. 5 stun and 3 seconds post stun).
This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
That is correct, after the shatter ends they would be immune to new stacks of chill for 3 seconds (for a total of 8 seconds of immunity. 5 stun and 3 seconds post stun).
This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
so on mobs (pve side) is still 3 seconds? i would find 3 reasonable but 5 actually a little bit too much, anyway without testing is difficult to think about how the gameplay can change for oppressors, ty for the quick clarification anyway.
(by the way i said 8 because i used the 5 second immunity frame from your post + an average 3 seconds to apply chill up to freeze after the end of shatter)
Its 5 stun and 5 immune in Pve and 5 stun and 3 sec in PvP.
Will Thaum freeze give the full 5/3 second immunity? Because normal freeze isn't as long as shatter? I don't get it. You wrote "This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for.".
And will it add another 75% to the 5/3 seconds if I use orb of imposition and even more if I get other control stats/companions?
Its 5 stun and 5 immune in Pve and 5 stun and 3 sec in PvP.
But will Thaum get the full 5/3 second immunity? Because normal freeze isn't as long as shatter? I don't get it.
because you used your feat point to o get assailant and more dps, i used them to have shatter, that's why your freeze last less, nothing difficult to understand, you want to take away my shatter? give me your assailant... yeah make only 1 path
That is correct, after the shatter ends they would be immune to new stacks of chill for 3 seconds (for a total of 8 seconds of immunity. 5 stun and 3 seconds post stun).
This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
let me fix things x.x I'm on my first year of a game software dev course in uni let me balance everything for you.. properly >.> you can have all the credit, i just want a game that's fun to play again
It seems like the way they're doing it, that won't be an issue since the mobs will be immune to freeze from all CWs.
I think it's a good idea overall and should really help with balance in PVE and PVP.
It's too much change too fast. They're going to lose customers from this. There are going to be so many people that get upset about having to refigure out a build again, and get funneled into thaum.
That is correct, after the shatter ends they would be immune to new stacks of chill for 3 seconds (for a total of 8 seconds of immunity. 5 stun and 3 seconds post stun).
This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
I'd like to highlight the fact that some Monsters,especially in IWD,have CC resistance and it means that Freeze breaks quite fast when applied to them. If you introduce this Cooldown on Freeze then it will effectively make these monsters uncontrollable.So if you're gonna implement this change ,balance it out by giving Orb of Imposition a CC resistance / immunity penetration stat,or make Cw armor penetration,penetrate CC resistance too.
first for the period of many-many days answer of a person in charge took place in the very thread that was started as many others for complaining about cw's exclusive OPness and was mainly being pushed but non-cw's ..
3 pages of non-constructive talk in the spirit of pvp sub-forum and bam - "we'll take out control from control wizard" granted. that's really adorable. i'd highly suggest posting such info in pvp threads to get 20+ pages of hailing comments and hosannas for such a move.
/sarcasm
as i believe and what i can see people still stacking cw's in their parties after m4 came live aiming not at total control but rather fast melting the content. lots were forced to respec for thauma in order to grab place in dungeon runs. PE lfg channel has changed drastically since ToD started? don't think so. (ik, ik, everyone here making guild/legit_channel runs but for indicating global trends it's ok).
and we all know what exactly class feature is overpowered and prolly broken. just fix one thing literally most of forum is talking about and things will be much better.
i'm talking about pve aspect exclusively. as for pvp i hope crazymike and other respected cw's will throw in their 2 cents.
If you are going to change still stacks so that there is an immunity on the CC, then you need to change all stuns to be effected by this, because currently, 1 single gwf can stun you for 6s straight. not including daily, and then takedown only has a 8s cooldown.
Or, you can do the remotely intelligent thing for once, and revert the changes to chill stacks and instead of immunity, make freeze break on damage again, and while your at it, revert the other stupid changes made to CW, and bring back shard of endless avalanche. but, knowing you guys, you would rather change something completely rather than make work as it is
[...] This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
Let me repeat myself and get a little more into detail:
When your party is swarmed by adds, as in almost every single T2 bossfight, this will be of major impact on a team's performance. Don't get me wrong - for highly geared parties this won't be much of an issue because those will literally kill every single mob before they unfreeze. But I see a problem in this for parties that are still in the gearing-up phase and/or inexperienced. One CW can't keep the party safe from the overwhelming hordes of adds. And when your GF and DC also don't have the equipment or experience to keep the party safe you're in for a wipe and quickly. So, what do you think those guys will do after wiping 3 times in a row? They probably will go in with more than one CW next time, because they'll think that more control (2x ST, 2x OF/Sing[increase target cap, please], 2x Shard[bring it back to life, please], 2x Ice Storm, 2x EF[tabbed], heck even 2x shield) will be mandatory to beat the boss. And guess what - they are right and they will succeed eventually. What do you think their next party and the one after that will look like? Yup, 2xCW, GF, DC and probably a SW due to its novelty and popolarity.
Getting back to high-end groups. What do you think, these will run? One CW only? Wrong. Is the current status of freeze the reason why? Negative. You do know why, right? Maybe address the reason behind this before you gimp new players.
To sum it all up: In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to keep a group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe. With the current status of freeze this is quite possible, yet relying only on one CC aspect and a broken feat seems odd, so I get your intention to fix this. But then again, you need to offer the CW more control capabilities in general to prevent groups from stacking them, not less. Lastly, in order to reduce CW stacking which would happen also if they had zero control, consider buffing other damage-dealing classes and/or address certain passives and feats rendering CWs as monstrous proc-machines.
To sum it all up: In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to keep a group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe.
Why? Why should a CW negate the need for a tank or a healer, and do top dps on top of it? Why is that a good thing?
Content is essentially a joke with just 1 CW in the party, and becomes exponentially more of a joke the more CWs you stack.
The idea here is to bring up the importance of GF/GWF tanking and DC healing, while also making it not a good idea to stack CWs.
There are 7 classes in this game but currently the only one worth using in PVE is a CW.
1 CW will still be pretty much mandatory because they'll still have a hell of a lot of dps and control, but stacking them and roflstomping all content shouldn't happen anymore with the proposed changes.
It's too much change too fast. They're going to lose customers from this. There are going to be so many people that get upset about having to refigure out a build again, and get funneled into thaum.
Oppressor will be better than ever since you get a 5 second stun on top of the freeze, meaning it will be the best spec for control by far (most things will be dead by the time that ends).
The way they lose customers is to have 6/7 of the classes not wanted for groups.
Accept the fact that this rework is a complete fail especially in PVP, you devs didn't listen to a SINGLE feedback for over a month, completely broke the class and now you're trying to "fix" things making them even worse.
But it's ok, mods go ahead and delete this post too.
Why? Why should a CW negate the need for a tank or a healer, and do top dps on top of it? Why is that a good thing?
I knew, a reply similar like yours would come, so let me quote myself:
One CW can't keep the party safe from the overwhelming hordes of adds. And when your GF and DC also don't have the equipment or experience to keep the party safe you're in for a wipe and quickly.
As well as
[...] for highly geared parties this won't be much of an issue because those will literally kill every single mob before they unfreeze
I take it that you're more frequently running with parties that fall under the latter category. There in fact are groups that even with today's "broken OP" CW have major problems completing any T2 out there.
Furthermore, where did I state that a CW should a) negate the need "for a tank or a healer" and b) "do top dps"?
As for b), let me refer you to my closing words:
Lastly, in order to reduce CW stacking which would happen also if they had zero control, consider buffing other damage-dealing classes and/or address certain passives and feats rendering CWs as monstrous proc-machines
I think we both can agree on that. Current high-end parties don't stack CWs for control purposes but their mere damage potential.
Concerning a) - I might have phrased it unprecisely, so let me give it another shot:
In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to assist a Tank and Healer (not necessarily GF and DC) in keeping their group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe.
In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to assist a Tank and Healer (not necessarily GF and DC) in keeping their group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe.
A single CW would still carry a buttload of control, even with the proposed changes.
Orb of Imposition is insane. If you're going for control, the only thing worse than mod3 (when CWs were also OP as hell in PVE because of ridiculous control/DPS) is the target cap on singularity. Freeze broke on damage in mod3 and CWs did just fine.
You can actually end up with way more control than mod3 if you use shard for the prone and spec oppressor for the extra stun after freeze and use orb of imposition. Damage would be a bit lower but that's NOT A BAD THING. The idea here is to make other classes wanted, and most of them just bring DPS.
Damage would be a bit lower but that's NOT A BAD THING. The idea here is to make other classes wanted, and most of them just bring DPS.
Glad we agree on that :-)
E: Hit send too early. You make a lot of sense, still I'm sure this implemented immunity won't stop people from stacking CWs. In contrary. Hence why I call for even MORE control and fix of certain Feats and Flass Features to bring the damage potential back in line with other classes. Then maybe we'll see only 1x CW parties even in the beginners' section. Ideally, along with tuning down the CW's damage output, buffing of other classes would be a welcome change of events.
There are actually 2 problems here we are looking at.
Firstly, Guardian Block is not always blocking CC that comes in from the front like it is supposed to, so we are looking at that independent of Wizard CC potential.
Secondly, Wizards are getting a little *too* much chain CC potential. Given this we are looking at adding a duration after being frozen where you are immune to Chill Stacks. This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for. This will mean landing a successful Shatter Strike on the target will give them a little longer safe time before they can be controlled again.
The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters. This means that wizards can lock down a large number of foes but cannot do it forever. It is important to note that multiple wizards will SHARE this lockout, so it cannot be subverted by stacking more wizards.
We want controlling foes to be a powerful utility without totally disabling gameplay for everyone else.
Thank you for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Well thank you for acknowledging that there is a bug for GF guard! I know we've brought it up in the GF feedback thread but heard no news on the subject as if it was WAI... This is great news!
I also play a CW and in MOD 3 CW were tough in PvP as GWF were so over the top ridiculous and HR, we suffered trying to get off powers trying to kite to survive. Now classes are better balanced the CW like you said needs that control and I like the idea but may I suggest before changing ANY CW spells or chill stacking fix the GF guard first and lets see how that plays out?
We are really the only class that has no way to counter the freeze unless we manage to get off a Villians Menace that seems to take a long time to get off and we end up frozen in the animation anyway... So I think if GF can block ICY Rays or Entangling Force with a well timed block everything may be fine and no changes will be needed in PvP anyway.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Glad we agree on that :-)
You make a lot of sense, still I'm sure this implemented immunity won't stop people from stacking CWs. In contrary. Hence why I call for even MORE control and fix of certain Feats and Flass Features to bring the damage potential back in line with other classes. Then maybe we'll see only 1x CW parties even in the beginners' section. Ideally, along with tuning down the CW's damage output, buffing of other classes would be a welcome change of events.
Well, there still is the problem that CWs do top damage, so even if stacking them has a greatly reduced benefit on control, they'll still be wanted for their dps.
But it's a step in the right direction. You can see just in this thread how resistant CWs are to nerfs, so I don't think nerfing their damage is the answer. I think they should combine the idea they have with buffing the DPS only classes (HR, TR, SW, and somewhat GWF), at least in PVE.
My suggestion was to make all CW powers do absolutely nothing if there is a CW power from a different CW already active.
I'm not sure what exactly what would be the best way to prevent CW stacking, but at least this is something.
So I think if GF can block ICY Rays or Entangling Force with a well timed block everything may be fine and no changes will be needed in PvP anyway.
Sounds like your secondary character the CW is having second thoughts. Being able to perma-lock and kill anyone at range if they don't have a cc-break up is broken.
That's the great thing about the fix their proposing- it kills two birds with one stone. CWs will still be great and top notch for PVE and PVP, but they won't be totally over the top.
Other classes will be more wanted in PVE and people will have more of a chance to actually fight back in PVP.
*****
The funny part is if they just make it so GF shield blocks chill and icy roots, how is a CW supposed to deal with a GF? GF can have shield up a really long time now, and it's not exactly easy for a CW to get behind them and CC them before they can turn around.
The current freeze mechanics allow 1 Oppressor CW to be able to lock down and freeze most, if not all, of the controllable adds. This is the sort of thing people were demanding pre-mod4. CW - controls adds via freeze; Everyone else - kills adds. Take that away again and it's back to multi-CW parties.
i dont mind, freeze them, just do 2~3x less damage, thats what CONTROL wizard should have been from the start
the problem with cw stacking is that the dps a cw can provide is far superior than mod3 because of storm spell doing a lot of damage, the current control is the only thnig that can avoid cw stacking because a single oppressor is enough to keep the party safe. to avoid cw stacking theu should have fixed storm spell and not nerf the control of a CONTROL wizard, now that they do that they are no longer able to change/nerf a single thing of the cw, and for sure leaving us our dps will not avoid cw stacking
Sounds like your secondary character the CW is having second thoughts. Being able to perma-lock and kill anyone at range if they don't have a cc-break up is broken.
The funny part is if they just make it so GF shield blocks chill and icy roots, how is a CW supposed to deal with a GF? GF can have shield up a really long time now, and it's not exactly easy for a CW to get behind them and CC them before they can turn around.
Not at all, I just don't want to see CW changes if the GF is bugged. I brought this thread up thinking GF guard was WAI, as we heard nothing on it otherwise... Now it has been acknowledged as a bug, I think we should get that fixed before changing things around as GF are really the only class thats really having issue with freeze and roots. Other classes can still fight from range, or have a means to get out of or prevent the root.
No one is asking for chill to be blockable? Where did you read that? I didn't say it, nor did anyone else in this thread? Chill is fine its supposed to stack on targets just like arcane stacks. The problem is not being able to block the CC which gives the chill stacks a boost.
CW can still freeze me, they only need to hold RoF? But If I can block the ICY at least I have time to counter the freeze before it finishes stacking. The point is right now we cannot, and if there is 2 CWs lmao don't even go over that area as a GF unless you popped VM.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Not at all, I just don't want to see CW changes if the GF is bugged. I brought this thread up thinking GF guard was WAI, as we heard nothing on it otherwise... Now it has been acknowledged as a bug, I think we should get that fixed before changing things around as GF are really the only class thats really having issue with freeze and roots. Other classes can still fight from range, or have a means to get out of or prevent the root.
No one is asking for chill to be blockable? Where did you read that? I didn't say it, nor did anyone else in this thread? Chill is fine its supposed to stack on targets just like arcane stacks. The problem is not being able to block the CC which gives the chill stacks a boost.
CW can still freeze me, they only need to hold RoF? But If I can block the ICY at least I have time to counter the freeze before it finishes stacking. The point is right now we cannot, and if there is 2 CWs lmao don't even go over that area as a GF unless you popped VM.
GF isn't the only class having "trouble" with the freeze and roots. Icy roots is undodgable and as far as the freeze, from your OP:
But now as a CW all I do is icy rays rof anything and its dead in seconds?
the problem with cw stacking is that the dps a cw can provide is far superior than mod3 because of storm spell doing a lot of damage, the current control is the only thnig that can avoid cw stacking because a single oppressor is enough to keep the party safe. to avoid cw stacking theu should have fixed storm spell and not nerf the control of a CONTROL wizard, now that they do that they are no longer able to change/nerf a single thing of the cw, and for sure leaving us our dps will not avoid cw stacking
You are thinking mod 2 / mod 3 all over again, it is not the CWs job to keep the party safe, thats the GF's job! The CW is their to gather the adds and position them so the tank can efficiently hold aggro and the party can dps them down.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GF isn't the only class having "trouble" with the freeze and roots. Icy roots is undodgable and as far as the freeze, from your OP:
That is true, thats all I need to do... I cannot speak at high level PvP from the CW point of view though. I know other classes can still dps, and counter it though. Gf right now cannot. But I got your point CW are very powerful against all classes...
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
You are thinking mod 2 / mod 3 all over again, it is not the CWs job to keep the party safe, thats the GF's job! The CW is their to gather the adds and position them so the tank can efficiently hold aggro and the party can dps them down.
Except that in most content they don't really do that. CW aoe dps combined with SW/HR/GWF dps does. GF is just a helpful buff bot like DC's are. Now GF has better buffs than DC but that doesn't change that it's just a buff bot. Right now the fastest runs are CW SW stacked runs. What they needed to do for PvE was lower CW dps and let them keep their control and the stacking issue would go away, You'd want one for control and dps classes for the rest with maybe a buffbot thrown in.
Except that in most content they don't really do that. CW aoe dps combined with SW/HR/GWF dps does. GF is just a helpful buff bot like DC's are. Now GF has better buffs than DC but that doesn't change that it's just a buff bot. Right now the fastest runs are CW SW stacked runs. What they needed to do for PvE was lower CW dps and let them keep their control and the stacking issue would go away, You'd want one for control and dps classes for the rest with maybe a buffbot thrown in.
yes, lowering the dps would have resolved the problem because you would have to choose more control or LESS dps for the party, and we know how much people is dps freak on this game
Except that in most content they don't really do that. CW aoe dps combined with SW/HR/GWF dps does. GF is just a helpful buff bot like DC's are. Now GF has better buffs than DC but that doesn't change that it's just a buff bot. Right now the fastest runs are CW SW stacked runs. What they needed to do for PvE was lower CW dps and let them keep their control and the stacking issue would go away, You'd want one for control and dps classes for the rest with maybe a buffbot thrown in.
You are right, there are many ways to complete the same tasks. But in a Developers mind his goal is to have diversity and class roles, the GF's job is to protect the party and tank! Now if you wanna DPS race or CW stack, or go 5 GWFs thats fine too... But the class role for a CW is not to protect the party unless its to save your DC with a well timed CC. CW, is there to maintain control and keep groups together so the party can kill the group without running all over the dungeon.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
3 seconds in PvP is a long time for a CW and 5 seconds is even longer in PvE. I think maybe you should lower it to 2 second for players and 3 seconds for PvE and then nerf Oppressor shatter a little bit. Because with 3 seconds you nerf all CWs and not just oppressor. A Thaum CW cant chain CC like oppressor, so that tree should not get as much nerf as the Oppressor.
You also need to fix our shard. The shard is the most useless power now for dungeons and PvP. Every single CW in PvP Is using the exact same encounters now and that was the direct opposite what you wanted when you nerfed the shard according to your own statement.
That is correct, after the shatter ends they would be immune to new stacks of chill for 3 seconds (for a total of 8 seconds of immunity. 5 stun and 3 seconds post stun).
This allows a single wizard to take a lot of pressure off of players with stun uptimes exceeding 50~70%, but means that stacking many wizards won't increase that value that much. This also means that the team still needs to cover other areas such as tanking adds during that downtime and dealing damage, but that wizard can handle a lot of that pressure without removing all of the gameplay for other members via chain controlling mobs.
so on mobs (pve side) is still 3 seconds? i would find 3 reasonable but 5 actually a little bit too much, anyway without testing is difficult to think about how the gameplay can change for oppressors, ty for the quick clarification anyway.
(by the way i said 8 because i used the 5 second immunity frame from your post + an average 3 seconds to apply chill up to freeze after the end of shatter)
Will Thaum freeze give the full 5/3 second immunity? Because normal freeze isn't as long as shatter? I don't get it. You wrote "This duration will be related to how long you are controlled for.".
And will it add another 75% to the 5/3 seconds if I use orb of imposition and even more if I get other control stats/companions?
because you used your feat point to o get assailant and more dps, i used them to have shatter, that's why your freeze last less, nothing difficult to understand, you want to take away my shatter? give me your assailant... yeah make only 1 path
let me fix things x.x I'm on my first year of a game software dev course in uni let me balance everything for you.. properly >.> you can have all the credit, i just want a game that's fun to play again
It seems like the way they're doing it, that won't be an issue since the mobs will be immune to freeze from all CWs.
I think it's a good idea overall and should really help with balance in PVE and PVP.
It's too much change too fast. They're going to lose customers from this. There are going to be so many people that get upset about having to refigure out a build again, and get funneled into thaum.
I'd like to highlight the fact that some Monsters,especially in IWD,have CC resistance and it means that Freeze breaks quite fast when applied to them. If you introduce this Cooldown on Freeze then it will effectively make these monsters uncontrollable.So if you're gonna implement this change ,balance it out by giving Orb of Imposition a CC resistance / immunity penetration stat,or make Cw armor penetration,penetrate CC resistance too.
3 pages of non-constructive talk in the spirit of pvp sub-forum and bam - "we'll take out control from control wizard" granted. that's really adorable. i'd highly suggest posting such info in pvp threads to get 20+ pages of hailing comments and hosannas for such a move.
/sarcasm
as i believe and what i can see people still stacking cw's in their parties after m4 came live aiming not at total control but rather fast melting the content. lots were forced to respec for thauma in order to grab place in dungeon runs. PE lfg channel has changed drastically since ToD started? don't think so. (ik, ik, everyone here making guild/legit_channel runs but for indicating global trends it's ok).
and we all know what exactly class feature is overpowered and prolly broken. just fix one thing literally most of forum is talking about and things will be much better.
i'm talking about pve aspect exclusively. as for pvp i hope crazymike and other respected cw's will throw in their 2 cents.
IMMUNITY for 3 SECONDS?
Way too much.
There are but 4 classes that have an issue with the freezes. DC/HR/GF/CW.
All the above classes but the CW have ways to mitigate it - high Wisdom/healing/mitigation/good CC/stuns of their own/great melee damage/self-healing.
Introducing IMMUNITY is bad.
You need to work out Diminishing Returns for ALL THE CC. Not just the CW's. Then it will be OK.
Let me repeat myself and get a little more into detail:
When your party is swarmed by adds, as in almost every single T2 bossfight, this will be of major impact on a team's performance. Don't get me wrong - for highly geared parties this won't be much of an issue because those will literally kill every single mob before they unfreeze. But I see a problem in this for parties that are still in the gearing-up phase and/or inexperienced. One CW can't keep the party safe from the overwhelming hordes of adds. And when your GF and DC also don't have the equipment or experience to keep the party safe you're in for a wipe and quickly. So, what do you think those guys will do after wiping 3 times in a row? They probably will go in with more than one CW next time, because they'll think that more control (2x ST, 2x OF/Sing[increase target cap, please], 2x Shard[bring it back to life, please], 2x Ice Storm, 2x EF[tabbed], heck even 2x shield) will be mandatory to beat the boss. And guess what - they are right and they will succeed eventually. What do you think their next party and the one after that will look like? Yup, 2xCW, GF, DC and probably a SW due to its novelty and popolarity.
Getting back to high-end groups. What do you think, these will run? One CW only? Wrong. Is the current status of freeze the reason why? Negative. You do know why, right? Maybe address the reason behind this before you gimp new players.
To sum it all up: In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to keep a group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe. With the current status of freeze this is quite possible, yet relying only on one CC aspect and a broken feat seems odd, so I get your intention to fix this. But then again, you need to offer the CW more control capabilities in general to prevent groups from stacking them, not less. Lastly, in order to reduce CW stacking which would happen also if they had zero control, consider buffing other damage-dealing classes and/or address certain passives and feats rendering CWs as monstrous proc-machines.
Why? Why should a CW negate the need for a tank or a healer, and do top dps on top of it? Why is that a good thing?
Content is essentially a joke with just 1 CW in the party, and becomes exponentially more of a joke the more CWs you stack.
The idea here is to bring up the importance of GF/GWF tanking and DC healing, while also making it not a good idea to stack CWs.
There are 7 classes in this game but currently the only one worth using in PVE is a CW.
1 CW will still be pretty much mandatory because they'll still have a hell of a lot of dps and control, but stacking them and roflstomping all content shouldn't happen anymore with the proposed changes.
Oppressor will be better than ever since you get a 5 second stun on top of the freeze, meaning it will be the best spec for control by far (most things will be dead by the time that ends).
The way they lose customers is to have 6/7 of the classes not wanted for groups.
Accept the fact that this rework is a complete fail especially in PVP, you devs didn't listen to a SINGLE feedback for over a month, completely broke the class and now you're trying to "fix" things making them even worse.
But it's ok, mods go ahead and delete this post too.
I knew, a reply similar like yours would come, so let me quote myself:
As well as
I take it that you're more frequently running with parties that fall under the latter category. There in fact are groups that even with today's "broken OP" CW have major problems completing any T2 out there.
Furthermore, where did I state that a CW should a) negate the need "for a tank or a healer" and b) "do top dps"?
As for b), let me refer you to my closing words: I think we both can agree on that. Current high-end parties don't stack CWs for control purposes but their mere damage potential.
Concerning a) - I might have phrased it unprecisely, so let me give it another shot:
In my oppinion, one CW should be able to provide enough control on her/his own to assist a Tank and Healer (not necessarily GF and DC) in keeping their group - even an undergeared and inexperienced one - safe.
A single CW would still carry a buttload of control, even with the proposed changes.
Orb of Imposition is insane. If you're going for control, the only thing worse than mod3 (when CWs were also OP as hell in PVE because of ridiculous control/DPS) is the target cap on singularity. Freeze broke on damage in mod3 and CWs did just fine.
You can actually end up with way more control than mod3 if you use shard for the prone and spec oppressor for the extra stun after freeze and use orb of imposition. Damage would be a bit lower but that's NOT A BAD THING. The idea here is to make other classes wanted, and most of them just bring DPS.
Glad we agree on that :-)
E: Hit send too early. You make a lot of sense, still I'm sure this implemented immunity won't stop people from stacking CWs. In contrary. Hence why I call for even MORE control and fix of certain Feats and Flass Features to bring the damage potential back in line with other classes. Then maybe we'll see only 1x CW parties even in the beginners' section. Ideally, along with tuning down the CW's damage output, buffing of other classes would be a welcome change of events.
Well thank you for acknowledging that there is a bug for GF guard! I know we've brought it up in the GF feedback thread but heard no news on the subject as if it was WAI... This is great news!
I also play a CW and in MOD 3 CW were tough in PvP as GWF were so over the top ridiculous and HR, we suffered trying to get off powers trying to kite to survive. Now classes are better balanced the CW like you said needs that control and I like the idea but may I suggest before changing ANY CW spells or chill stacking fix the GF guard first and lets see how that plays out?
We are really the only class that has no way to counter the freeze unless we manage to get off a Villians Menace that seems to take a long time to get off and we end up frozen in the animation anyway... So I think if GF can block ICY Rays or Entangling Force with a well timed block everything may be fine and no changes will be needed in PvP anyway.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Well, there still is the problem that CWs do top damage, so even if stacking them has a greatly reduced benefit on control, they'll still be wanted for their dps.
But it's a step in the right direction. You can see just in this thread how resistant CWs are to nerfs, so I don't think nerfing their damage is the answer. I think they should combine the idea they have with buffing the DPS only classes (HR, TR, SW, and somewhat GWF), at least in PVE.
My suggestion was to make all CW powers do absolutely nothing if there is a CW power from a different CW already active.
I'm not sure what exactly what would be the best way to prevent CW stacking, but at least this is something.
Sounds like your secondary character the CW is having second thoughts. Being able to perma-lock and kill anyone at range if they don't have a cc-break up is broken.
That's the great thing about the fix their proposing- it kills two birds with one stone. CWs will still be great and top notch for PVE and PVP, but they won't be totally over the top.
Other classes will be more wanted in PVE and people will have more of a chance to actually fight back in PVP.
*****
The funny part is if they just make it so GF shield blocks chill and icy roots, how is a CW supposed to deal with a GF? GF can have shield up a really long time now, and it's not exactly easy for a CW to get behind them and CC them before they can turn around.
i dont mind, freeze them, just do 2~3x less damage, thats what CONTROL wizard should have been from the start
the problem with cw stacking is that the dps a cw can provide is far superior than mod3 because of storm spell doing a lot of damage, the current control is the only thnig that can avoid cw stacking because a single oppressor is enough to keep the party safe. to avoid cw stacking theu should have fixed storm spell and not nerf the control of a CONTROL wizard, now that they do that they are no longer able to change/nerf a single thing of the cw, and for sure leaving us our dps will not avoid cw stacking
Not at all, I just don't want to see CW changes if the GF is bugged. I brought this thread up thinking GF guard was WAI, as we heard nothing on it otherwise... Now it has been acknowledged as a bug, I think we should get that fixed before changing things around as GF are really the only class thats really having issue with freeze and roots. Other classes can still fight from range, or have a means to get out of or prevent the root.
No one is asking for chill to be blockable? Where did you read that? I didn't say it, nor did anyone else in this thread? Chill is fine its supposed to stack on targets just like arcane stacks. The problem is not being able to block the CC which gives the chill stacks a boost.
CW can still freeze me, they only need to hold RoF? But If I can block the ICY at least I have time to counter the freeze before it finishes stacking. The point is right now we cannot, and if there is 2 CWs lmao don't even go over that area as a GF unless you popped VM.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
GF isn't the only class having "trouble" with the freeze and roots. Icy roots is undodgable and as far as the freeze, from your OP:
You are thinking mod 2 / mod 3 all over again, it is not the CWs job to keep the party safe, thats the GF's job! The CW is their to gather the adds and position them so the tank can efficiently hold aggro and the party can dps them down.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
That is true, thats all I need to do... I cannot speak at high level PvP from the CW point of view though. I know other classes can still dps, and counter it though. Gf right now cannot. But I got your point CW are very powerful against all classes...
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Except that in most content they don't really do that. CW aoe dps combined with SW/HR/GWF dps does. GF is just a helpful buff bot like DC's are. Now GF has better buffs than DC but that doesn't change that it's just a buff bot. Right now the fastest runs are CW SW stacked runs. What they needed to do for PvE was lower CW dps and let them keep their control and the stacking issue would go away, You'd want one for control and dps classes for the rest with maybe a buffbot thrown in.
yes, lowering the dps would have resolved the problem because you would have to choose more control or LESS dps for the party, and we know how much people is dps freak on this game
You are right, there are many ways to complete the same tasks. But in a Developers mind his goal is to have diversity and class roles, the GF's job is to protect the party and tank! Now if you wanna DPS race or CW stack, or go 5 GWFs thats fine too... But the class role for a CW is not to protect the party unless its to save your DC with a well timed CC. CW, is there to maintain control and keep groups together so the party can kill the group without running all over the dungeon.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!