That has nothing to do with it. As a 18k gf with 21% tenacity, 47k hp and 46% dr I should have some defense against a perma freeze cw, but there is not 1 skill I can use if he is just out of range.
If our block worked properly then this wouldn't be a problem.
That has nothing to do with it. As a 18k gf with 21% tenacity, 47k hp and 46% dr I should have some defense against a perma freeze cw, but there is not 1 skill I can use if he is just out of range.
If our block worked properly then this wouldn't be a problem.
This drives me nuts. You don't nerf things because other things are bugged, you fix the bugs.
This drives me nuts. You don't nerf things because other things are bugged, you fix the bugs.
Don't put words in my mouth. I DID NOT say I wanted nerfs. I come here to point out a problem, last I checked that is one thing forums are about, to discus problems.
Edit: And yes the fact that the gf is bugged and not blocking powers we should be is the main reason cw can do this to and not on most other classes, does that change the issue though ? does that mean I shouldn't tell the truth ? No.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
edited September 2014
What classes can they not do it to? They can do it to my DC. My GWF will eventually break out with unstoppable, but as soon as it's gone, they'll kill me. My TR should be able to break out if he has ITC slotted. They can especially do it to my CW, though that would be overkill. All it takes is EF and IR with Assailant. Thaums can kill me as fast as GFs can.
What classes can they not do it to? They can do it to my DC. My GWF will eventually break out with unstoppable, but as soon as it's gone, they'll kill me. My TR should be able to break out if he has ITC slotted. They can especially do it to my CW, though that would be overkill. All it takes is EF and IR with Assailant. Thaums can kill me as fast as GFs can.
Gwf and tr can break out, hr might have a way but I'm not sure. All I'm saying is, as a gf I don't currently have any counter against a cw who loves the freeze powers. I'm not asking for nerfs at all and I never have. I use forums to point out where I think something is wrong and since gf players was told we would be immune to cc from the front while guarding that's what needs to be fixed.
Crixus - PVP GF
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Gwf and tr can break out, hr might have a way but I'm not sure. All I'm saying is, as a gf I don't currently have any counter against a cw who loves the freeze powers. I'm not asking for nerfs at all and I never have. I use forums to point out where I think something is wrong and since gf players was told we would be immune to cc from the front while guarding that's what needs to be fixed.
I know how to counter .
Get as many HP as y can hit 70k .
Then you will have chance to activate VM .
Then you must kill the CW or you are dead & hope no one will join him.
Legendary DC arti will help you in every 3 min to kill one CW.
Untill GF block CC immunity is not fixed this is the only way.
I know how to counter .
Get as many HP as y can hit 70k .
Then you will have chance to activate VM .
Then you must kill the CW or you are dead & hope no one will join him.
Legendary DC arti will help you in every 3 min to kill one CW.
Untill GF block CC immunity is not fixed this is the only way.
I could have 100k hp bro and it would not help. From the start of the fight I was frozen and there was not even 1 second to use anything lol. VM has a long activation time so its hard to get off against a perma controller. If our shield was fixed though then we could actually use it to block cc.
The primary reason for getting away from this is that it makes CC wildly unpredictable and entirely worthless on a bigger target (who is controllable) but is under fire as it would break instantly. That in general feels really bad.
As a general principle it is in most cases better to have consistent output who is affected by timing rather than variable output that relies on outside factors for systems like this. Remember that this is not by its nature a "long fragile CC" similar to sleep. If it were holding a target for 45 seconds or some other long period it would make sense. Diminishing returns on stuns like this are generally the right way to go, but the challenges of a true DR system on a series of stuns whose durations are not all equal are fairly complex and challenging. Given that making freeze itself operate on a more binary system of "Immune/Not Immune" moves much closer to that goal of letting a single Wizard be a powerful force for controlling foes without letting stacking them be awesome all the time. Two wizards will have to work together to make sure they don't waste their freezing potential under this system, and one wizard can still provide a substantial amount of control by spreading freezes. This just prevents it from being "permanent".
Breaking on damage is a difficult thing to balance because in most cases falls into one of two categories. 1) So easy to break that the CC becomes difficult to notice and provides little benefit beyond an interrupt and 2)So hard to break that it basically operates as if there were no way to break it in normal gameplay.
Rather than try and balance these two situations and make it feel good across all possible gear levels, it is far simpler to understand that after a foe has been frozen they cant be frozen again for several seconds. This provides a clear and consistent behavior to all wizards, regardless of their gear. And making the duration of this immunity not literally scale on the CC duration means that wizards who devote themselves to CC can still get higher uptime on their CC than other Wizards without locking out all gameplay.
This is a good idea, in theory. But I fear that having an artificial limit will just remove a lot of skill required to play the class. Right now having a 100% control uptime on requires a lot of practice and it's far from being that common. Yes it's possible to do it but what's going to happen if there's an artificial limit on control? Spam encounters until it dies, you'll reach the artificial cap the devs added eventually if you have high enough stats.
And I don't think the game needs to be dumbed down again right now. Because frankly it's been a bit too much on the easy side, especially for a wizard player.
On a slightly different tone it would be nice to make arcane and fire CW gameplay viable again. Now that shard of endless avalanche has been changed (a required change) it's all about chill - in pve and pvp. The last time i've used an arcane spell in pvp was back in module 2. And being a master of fire CW is so crippling in pve due to the absurd amount of damage storm spell does that it's not an option anymore if we ever want to do some pve. Even if the fire encounter is very nice in pvp. It could be done via nuking storm spell or buffing some chosen arcane and fire spells I don't mind but it would be a welcome change.
This drives me nuts. You don't nerf things because other things are bugged, you fix the bugs.
Just like the topic says, I did not ask for nerfs! However at the time we had no conformation that Guard was indeed bugged... We thought that was WAI, and we were looking for some discussion on why we cannot block Icy Rays.
Now we know that Guard is bugged, the discussion has changed to potential changes to CW CC times as was stated by the Developer not me / us.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited September 2014
So how about this. Let's fix Guard for GF's, then see what the situation is like.
Bug fix first, balance change second? I don't like the idea of the dev's changing mechanics because of gameplay feedback based on a bug.
...
Rather than try and balance these two situations and make it feel good across all possible gear levels, it is far simpler to understand that after a foe has been frozen they cant be frozen again for several seconds. This provides a clear and consistent behavior to all wizards, regardless of their gear. And making the duration of this immunity not literally scale on the CC duration means that wizards who devote themselves to CC can still get higher uptime on their CC than other Wizards without locking out all gameplay.
I saw this earlier, but I wanted to test/parse some things for a bit.
So I understand the reasoning behind this (I find it boring to see perma-frozen mobs/players), but I have a couple of questions (that might not relate to this specific topic, but relate to the bigger picture). It seems like that would be a reduction of control for the wizards (not entirely bad on its own), and in the larger scheme it does encourage players to go for the Thaumaturge path (which is DPS oriented). Currently, Thaumaturge DPS outplays (in most cases) Oppressors' control/team-buff utility. What is your vision for the CW in this respect (not to forget Renegade)? I ask because I am getting confused (from previous posts/news it seems like you want Oppressors to control more, while Thaumaturge to damage more), as I remember a post about CWs doing too much damage, but now it's even greater than before (has that vision been redacted?). Obviously more control/damage brings issues into PvP, but I can't tell what you are aiming for.
I think I might have misunderstood what GC was trying to say by making things 'immune' to Freeze.
As long as things aren't immune to chill there is really no issue in their 'fix'. After playing around with it pretty extensively on Preview last night it seems that an Oppressor doesn't actually need to freeze things themselves to proc Shatter Strike they just need to hit things that are already frozen.
I just don't want things to be immune to the slow from Chill itself, since that would really put a huge dent in my CW's survival.
All in all, it seems like maybe fixing GF guard would be a better solution but I'm a PvE only player. Maybe if there were gear score brackets I would engage in PvP, but without them I will never set foot in player combat if I can possibly avoid it.
Final point, SS/Thaum's control far too much through Chilling Control. Right now, on Live, there is no reason to be Oppressor when you can lock things down with two of your highest damaging spells. No reason at all.
As an example, you can put EF on tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Sudden Storm and keep everything locked down without any real problems at all while still doing far more damage than if you were spec'ced as Oppressor. The only thing Oppressor has going is Alacrity, which frankly isn't required at all. As long as Chilling Control is easily accessible while taking Thaum to the cap feat Oppressor will lose out in my opinion.
EF gathers, Terrain immobs, Sudden Storm freezes. That just works entirely too well while doing entirely too much damage while losing out on nothing by skipping Oppressor feats further into the tree. It might do less damage than a pure DPS rotation, but it still does far more than if you were an actual Oppressor spec. while still putting out the same amount of control. I notice no difference at all with or without Shatter Strike.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
The first iteration we are looking at is after being frozen from chill you will be immune to Chill stacks for 3 seconds after the freeze would have ended (before any strength and resistance get involved). After a successful shatter strike you will be immune for 3 seconds on players and 5 seconds on critters.
Ok, so let me revisit this, because it looks like I overlooked a key part here.
I don't know what the default duration for Freeze is, but say it's 3 seconds. What you're saying is if someone with a base CC strength freezes someone, they're immune to chill for 3 seconds + 3 seconds, or a total of 6 seconds. (Base duration + Immunity). If a wizard who specializes in CC strength (through wisdom, Orb and stats) gets his bonus duration up by over 3 seconds, so his Freeze lasts 6 seconds, then there's no noticeable effect on his ability to keep controlling stuff.
Thus a Wizard who invests more heavily in control still reaps all the benefits, while those (most notably Thaumaturge) who do not will suffer the biggest penalty.
Does that sound about right? Because I'm actually kind of on board with that idea.
Ok, so let me revisit this, because it looks like I overlooked a key part here.
I don't know what the default duration for Freeze is, but say it's 3 seconds. What you're saying is if someone with a base CC strength freezes someone, they're immune to chill for 3 seconds + 3 seconds, or a total of 6 seconds. (Base duration + Immunity). If a wizard who specializes in CC strength (through wisdom, Orb and stats) gets his bonus duration up by over 3 seconds, so his Freeze lasts 6 seconds, then there's no noticeable effect on his ability to keep controlling stuff.
Thus a Wizard who invests more heavily in control still reaps all the benefits, while those (most notably Thaumaturge) who do not will suffer the biggest penalty.
Does that sound about right? Because I'm actually kind of on board with that idea.
It was my understanding that the immunity to Chill / Freeze came into place as soon as the effect ended. Thereby providing complete immunity to those effects for 3 seconds.
Interestingly, I hope that this immunity window will not transfer over to stuns in the broadest sense. I would hate to see other classes (Think FLS and Takedown) become ineffectual due to targets being immune to the stuns because of Shatter.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Just like the topic says, I did not ask for nerfs! However at the time we had no conformation that Guard was indeed bugged... We thought that was WAI, and we were looking for some discussion on why we cannot block Icy Rays.
Now we know that Guard is bugged, the discussion has changed to potential changes to CW CC times as was stated by the Developer not me / us.
Icy Rays ignores CC-immunity such as dodge. It's not just a guard issue.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
It was my understanding that the immunity to Chill / Freeze came into place as soon as the effect ended. Thereby providing complete immunity to those effects for 3 seconds.
That's what I initially thought, but that's not what he said. In his explanation he specifically says "freeze would have ended" and "before any strength and resistance get involved".
Classes and Balance
Control Wizard: Freeze and Chill: After a target has been Frozen they are immune to new Chill stacks for 3 seconds. This lock out affects all Wizards.
Control Wizard: Shatter Strike: After a target has been stunned by Shatter Strike they are immune to new chill stacks for 4 seconds (3 seconds on players). This lockout affects all Wizards. Master of Flame: Twisting Immolation: This feat will no longer ignore control immunity.
Guardian Fighter Block: Now correctly stops control effects that hit the Guardian Fighter from the front.
Regarding the above, Someone will need to see if icy rays will still root a GF from the front. If not, than fighting Gfs just became inpossible for Cws.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Regarding the above, Someone will need to see if icy rays will still root a GF from the front. If not, than fighting Gfs just became inpossible for Cws.
How so you can still stack chill on us and a well timed choke... You could juke fake cast on me, you cold just dot the HAMSTER out of me and run away.
It will be harder not having instant root which I am not sure will block it yet. I will check when I get home from work on preview.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Comments
There is. It's called "your teammates".
That has nothing to do with it. As a 18k gf with 21% tenacity, 47k hp and 46% dr I should have some defense against a perma freeze cw, but there is not 1 skill I can use if he is just out of range.
If our block worked properly then this wouldn't be a problem.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This drives me nuts. You don't nerf things because other things are bugged, you fix the bugs.
Don't put words in my mouth. I DID NOT say I wanted nerfs. I come here to point out a problem, last I checked that is one thing forums are about, to discus problems.
Edit: And yes the fact that the gf is bugged and not blocking powers we should be is the main reason cw can do this to and not on most other classes, does that change the issue though ? does that mean I shouldn't tell the truth ? No.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Gwf and tr can break out, hr might have a way but I'm not sure. All I'm saying is, as a gf I don't currently have any counter against a cw who loves the freeze powers. I'm not asking for nerfs at all and I never have. I use forums to point out where I think something is wrong and since gf players was told we would be immune to cc from the front while guarding that's what needs to be fixed.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Get as many HP as y can hit 70k .
Then you will have chance to activate VM .
Then you must kill the CW or you are dead & hope no one will join him.
Legendary DC arti will help you in every 3 min to kill one CW.
Untill GF block CC immunity is not fixed this is the only way.
I could have 100k hp bro and it would not help. From the start of the fight I was frozen and there was not even 1 second to use anything lol. VM has a long activation time so its hard to get off against a perma controller. If our shield was fixed though then we could actually use it to block cc.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
This is a good idea, in theory. But I fear that having an artificial limit will just remove a lot of skill required to play the class. Right now having a 100% control uptime on requires a lot of practice and it's far from being that common. Yes it's possible to do it but what's going to happen if there's an artificial limit on control? Spam encounters until it dies, you'll reach the artificial cap the devs added eventually if you have high enough stats.
And I don't think the game needs to be dumbed down again right now. Because frankly it's been a bit too much on the easy side, especially for a wizard player.
On a slightly different tone it would be nice to make arcane and fire CW gameplay viable again. Now that shard of endless avalanche has been changed (a required change) it's all about chill - in pve and pvp. The last time i've used an arcane spell in pvp was back in module 2. And being a master of fire CW is so crippling in pve due to the absurd amount of damage storm spell does that it's not an option anymore if we ever want to do some pve. Even if the fire encounter is very nice in pvp. It could be done via nuking storm spell or buffing some chosen arcane and fire spells I don't mind but it would be a welcome change.
Just like the topic says, I did not ask for nerfs! However at the time we had no conformation that Guard was indeed bugged... We thought that was WAI, and we were looking for some discussion on why we cannot block Icy Rays.
Now we know that Guard is bugged, the discussion has changed to potential changes to CW CC times as was stated by the Developer not me / us.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
Bug fix first, balance change second? I don't like the idea of the dev's changing mechanics because of gameplay feedback based on a bug.
So I understand the reasoning behind this (I find it boring to see perma-frozen mobs/players), but I have a couple of questions (that might not relate to this specific topic, but relate to the bigger picture). It seems like that would be a reduction of control for the wizards (not entirely bad on its own), and in the larger scheme it does encourage players to go for the Thaumaturge path (which is DPS oriented). Currently, Thaumaturge DPS outplays (in most cases) Oppressors' control/team-buff utility. What is your vision for the CW in this respect (not to forget Renegade)? I ask because I am getting confused (from previous posts/news it seems like you want Oppressors to control more, while Thaumaturge to damage more), as I remember a post about CWs doing too much damage, but now it's even greater than before (has that vision been redacted?). Obviously more control/damage brings issues into PvP, but I can't tell what you are aiming for.
Just wanted to state that I love this phrase.
+1 to this!!!
As long as things aren't immune to chill there is really no issue in their 'fix'. After playing around with it pretty extensively on Preview last night it seems that an Oppressor doesn't actually need to freeze things themselves to proc Shatter Strike they just need to hit things that are already frozen.
I just don't want things to be immune to the slow from Chill itself, since that would really put a huge dent in my CW's survival.
All in all, it seems like maybe fixing GF guard would be a better solution but I'm a PvE only player. Maybe if there were gear score brackets I would engage in PvP, but without them I will never set foot in player combat if I can possibly avoid it.
Final point, SS/Thaum's control far too much through Chilling Control. Right now, on Live, there is no reason to be Oppressor when you can lock things down with two of your highest damaging spells. No reason at all.
As an example, you can put EF on tab, Icy Terrain, Steal Time, and Sudden Storm and keep everything locked down without any real problems at all while still doing far more damage than if you were spec'ced as Oppressor. The only thing Oppressor has going is Alacrity, which frankly isn't required at all. As long as Chilling Control is easily accessible while taking Thaum to the cap feat Oppressor will lose out in my opinion.
EF gathers, Terrain immobs, Sudden Storm freezes. That just works entirely too well while doing entirely too much damage while losing out on nothing by skipping Oppressor feats further into the tree. It might do less damage than a pure DPS rotation, but it still does far more than if you were an actual Oppressor spec. while still putting out the same amount of control. I notice no difference at all with or without Shatter Strike.
Ok, so let me revisit this, because it looks like I overlooked a key part here.
I don't know what the default duration for Freeze is, but say it's 3 seconds. What you're saying is if someone with a base CC strength freezes someone, they're immune to chill for 3 seconds + 3 seconds, or a total of 6 seconds. (Base duration + Immunity). If a wizard who specializes in CC strength (through wisdom, Orb and stats) gets his bonus duration up by over 3 seconds, so his Freeze lasts 6 seconds, then there's no noticeable effect on his ability to keep controlling stuff.
Thus a Wizard who invests more heavily in control still reaps all the benefits, while those (most notably Thaumaturge) who do not will suffer the biggest penalty.
Does that sound about right? Because I'm actually kind of on board with that idea.
It was my understanding that the immunity to Chill / Freeze came into place as soon as the effect ended. Thereby providing complete immunity to those effects for 3 seconds.
Interestingly, I hope that this immunity window will not transfer over to stuns in the broadest sense. I would hate to see other classes (Think FLS and Takedown) become ineffectual due to targets being immune to the stuns because of Shatter.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Icy Rays ignores CC-immunity such as dodge. It's not just a guard issue.
That's what I initially thought, but that's not what he said. In his explanation he specifically says "freeze would have ended" and "before any strength and resistance get involved".
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
How so you can still stack chill on us and a well timed choke... You could juke fake cast on me, you cold just dot the HAMSTER out of me and run away.
It will be harder not having instant root which I am not sure will block it yet. I will check when I get home from work on preview.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!