There is one more issue that speaks against this idea of class advocates which I didn't think of yet: In case the chosen class advocate will not do the job properly, we will have a very hard time removing that class advocate. First of all because this forum has strict naming & shaming policies, so criticising someone will be ... let's say 'complicated'. This is especially true if the one who criticizes is a mere player, and the criticized person a class advocate and therefore someone with better access to power.
And then there is the fact that here are players who share the same interests and don't operate on principle but rather on what benefits them regardless of the damage done to others. Unfortunately, as usual in groups of humans there is a significant cohesion amongst them which enables them to work more efficiently than the remaining unorganized, non-zealous, sane joe-averages. This means if the class advocate is someone of such a group, and we already see these groups moving foreward, then you will not only challenge one person, but you will stand against a whole group. My life experience has taught me that in such cases the reasonable, sane, informed and involved individual who attempts to prevent a train-crash and challenges such a power will get abandoned by the other sane average joes, and eventually will lose and be doomed to watch to train-crash happen. The cases in which this kind of tragedy do not happen are rare, very rare, and I hope that there is enough maturity in this community that we at least realize our shortcomings and don't go there.
Drop the idea of 'class advocates', if you want to improve the game by listening to the players, then fix bugs, thx.
I guess I'll chime on this argument, and my thoughts can be summarized in something attributed to the creator of Pokemon. It's paraphrased, sure, because I can't remember the exact quote offhand, but it went something like this:
"If we implemented everything the players asked us to do, what we would be left with ultimately is an unplayable mess of a game. Sometimes we have to say 'sorry, but this just isn't doable'."
Pretty new to the forums here, but I have been playing MMOs for a while. And my view is this nails it. The idea at its base of having advocates is just a bad idea. It never really works to the benefit of all players. With that said, I want to say upfront that I am a PVE player, I do not play PVP at all, it just doesn't interest me. Being such, as I spend some time the last few days reading the forums when bored, it is painfully obvious that they lean, almost completely, towards PVP and its faults etc. The one thing that I have noticed in all PVE based games, is that a PVP leaning forum can really mess up the works with its ever persistent quest for "class Balance". And honestly nothing in the comments in this string, or in general really, make me feel confident that who ever is elected will make that the focus. Which will more then likely have a negative impact on PVE in the overall scheme.
Overall I believe that when developers start to cater to the masses (which ironically isnt even the point sense forum posters are the minority of the minority of the overall player base) then like what is quoted above you get mayhem. So if you are deadset on making these "advocates" then I would recommend that you have at least 2 for each class, 1 PVE and 1 PVP, that is the only way I see that it could not as easily be abused.
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
How did I come up with that? Really?
Left out the red part on purpose ?
If you want to missunderstand its rather easy ) the point was talk to others not a selected few that suits your interrest.
That's how. By you saying that you have already pre-determined who you decided to solicit input from, i.e. those people you deem worthy of repsect. That's not how this should be working. Someone who genuinely wants to be an effective advocate need to talk to more than the experts...and in fact they need to talk to the people struggling with the class just as much if not more so. They need to be talking to everyone who plays the class who is willing to do so.
I agree and I think thats about what am been writing.
And please don't confuse my criticisms with a lack of respect for the work you are putting in lobbying for this. One is not the other
I dont all oppinion here is important if we are to make the best out of this.
And if you want to further prove my point about how even people with the best of intentions inevitably STILL, even against their deepest beliefs, cause issues just read up about how much his wife got away with, simply because he trusted her...
LOL a good argument isent always valid though :-).
Again all your argument is why this is a bad idea and how human has proven to abuse power/trust to its own agenda. Now if we going to recite litterature for and against human nature we are in for a loooooooooooooooooong ride indeed so lets not at least not on this thread(the subject is highly interresting though and I can do this with you if you like as one of my majors are in behavior science).
If this discussion are to move forward the arguments that its shouldent happend might be better left alone or moved to another thread.
Imho it would be more fruitfull if we try to dictate under which conditions an advocate would work best and what its role should involve.
If you read the devs explanations earlier on this thread it pretty much explains that when it comes to power the advocate shouldent put his hopes to high.
As you can read below...
Who said there will only be one class advocate?
There's no rule saying that will be the case.
Additionally, I promise you my feedback means nothing more to the devs. It really doesn't and it's not wishful thinking. The very first thing I have to supply is not numbers but support. The same will be needed from advocates. Compile a list of major concerns and show examples of people agreeing and disagreeing with you.
And just to stomp out the mis-information...
This was not requested by the developers. This was something Akromatik wanted to do for some time now which Zeb and I had wanted done basically from the start of the game.
And all the fear about personal agendas...
The only way that won't come into play is if you listen to nobody. Even right now hearing the petty arguments sends my head spinning because everybody is looking from a personal perspective that oft times blinds them from the big picture.
The only means to squash agendas is not to close the door but to open them to a wider range but that doesn't mean having a room full of screaming people. It means gathering feedback from a larger variety of ways and class advocates are just one more way to gather feedback. It's not a replacement for the forums or social media sites, it is an additional tool to gather from a smaller group of players who are passionate about the game.
If this discussion are to move forward the arguments that its shouldent happend might be better left alone or moved to another thread.
Imho it would be more fruitfull if we try to dictate under which conditions an advocate would work best and what its role should involve.
Ok this is extremely troubling, last I checked the title of this thread was feedback, so basically what you are saying is that anyone that has feedback opposite of what you believenshould be moved to another thread? Basically you are making his argument of WHY this is a bad idea. So what about when the advocates are chosen (which for some reason I think they may have already been) can we expect the same treatment. Anyone that doesn't agree with suggested changes should be moved to another thread?
Left out the red part on purpose ?
If you want to missunderstand its rather easy ) the point was talk to others not a selected few that suits your interrest.
Actually, the part I left out was even worse! I don't want my class advocate diluting my class's feedback with opinions from other class advocates. It's not the <insert class here> Advocate's job to see what some other class thinks of his class. It's to represent the class he was chosen for.
I could not care less what the CW advocate thinks of HRs, for example. I want the HR advocate focusing on what we as HRs tell him to focus on...and absolutely nothing more than that.
Even more wrongheaded than playing favourites with who you would listen to, you compound it by saying your presentations to Cryptic would be coloured by what other classes would have to say about yours.
What I find ironic about this is the fact that I'm pretty sure that certain people (ahem) hope the advocacy program calms down the wailing gnashing teeth of the forums; in terms of class balance, nerf threads, general whining, etc. -- it's a nice idea on paper -- "Hey let's give the players an organized way to have constructive feedback reach us! It'll be better than the random screech of the forums, right?"
Hilariously, this is doomed to backfire, as now instead of nebulous ignorance on whether or not the devs ever listen to us, there will be a bona fide "official" channel for player grief (the advocate) and seeing opportunity to have their voices heard, the caterwauling will, in fact, multiply. Anyone (and expect this to be a large number of folks before too long) who does not get a pat on the head and quick assurances from their advocate that whatever gripe is being looked at, fixed, nerfed, etc. will stream out onto general discussion and repeat their grievance, only even angrier than they would have been under the old, reliable nerf QQ system we have now.
To the future Advocates: enjoy being a "grief funnel". Your heart might be in the right place as you sign on to this mess, but the heart isn't where you're gonna get kicked. Wear a cup.
Ok this is extremely troubling, last I checked the title of this thread was feedback, so basically what you are saying is that anyone that has feedback opposite of what you believenshould be moved to another thread? Basically you are making his argument of WHY this is a bad idea. So what about when the advocates are chosen (which for some reason I think they may have already been) can we expect the same treatment. Anyone that doesn't agree with suggested changes should be moved to another thread?
Yea I feared that it would hit me in the back :-).
I should have phrased it differently and will so now. What I mean is that to argue why its a bad idea has its limits and has been presented in abundance. I am pretty sure that as its been presented by devs on each class forum it is going through and it will probably be more constructive if people also included how they want it to work if its to avoid the things that would make it fail.
I dont mean to restrict the voices that are against and I apologize for the bad wording(kinda tired I guess).
Actually, the part I left out was even worse! I don't want my class advocate diluting my class's feedback with opinions from other class advocates. It's not the <insert class here> Advocate's job to see what some other class thinks of his class. It's to represent the class he was chosen for.
On this I dissagree. As this is a group game mostly understanding the mechanics of how your class intergrate with others are crusial to reach a balance among classes.
The notion of being a class advocate without understanding how changes would effect the game play in groups or toward other classes in pvp is not a good one imho.
Now you can argue that the advocate should be aware of the other classes and can agrue from its own class point of view but I think that taking in more information from the other advocates will in the long run make for changes that are better and more consistent.
Yea I feared that it would hit me in the back :-).
I should have phraded it differently and will so now. What I mean is that to argue why its a bad idea has its limits and has been presented in abundance. I am pretty sure that as its been presented by devs on each class forum it is going through and it will probably be more constructive if people also included how they want it to work if its to avoid the things that would make it fail.
I dont mean to restrict the voices that are against and I apologize for the bad wording(kinda tired I guess).
If someone views something as bad and faulty then how in heavens name can he make suggestions on how it could work. It won't work, so what more is there to be said. I can't make constructive arguments on how it could work,when i believe that the whole idea has no way of working no matter how you implement it. It's like asking me to make constructive suggestions on how to cut someones head off in such a way that he/she may have a normal life ,without a head. He/she will be dead,the end.
If someone views something as bad and faulty then how in heavens name can he make suggestions on how it could work. It won't work, so what more is there to be said. I can't make constructive arguments on how it could work,when i believe that the whole idea has no way of working no matter how you implement it. It's like asking me to make constructive suggestions on how to cut someones head off in such a way that he/she may have a normal life ,without a head. He/she will be dead,the end.
Ha ha yea well that is one way of putting it. But if reality is that something is going to happend no matter how bad you think it is you have the option of refusing to take part of it or make the best of it.
I have been playing mmo for over 20 yaers now and I have seen advocate that manage to not only get the respect of the player base but also succeeded in making great changes to the class(one very good example was the warrior advocate in everquest that turned a more or less uselss class into one that was much liked in less then 4 month after he came to office).
If you live on a vulcano that are going active and dont want to move my suggestion is that instead of saying I dont like the volcano to erupt it might be better to help with the logistics of how to move the most efficient way :-).
Err, the reason why people like Nelson Mandala was so admired is because they are so RARE and that the vast majority of the time people are not despite the best efforts of society.
And if you want to further prove my point about how even people with the best of intentions inevitably STILL, even against their deepest beliefs, cause issues just read up about how much his wife got away with, simply because he trusted her....
As for /Legit, it is a tiny fraction of the player-base, which again strengthens the argument against this system. The very fact that it had to be formed is a huge glaring huge neon sign illustrating how the vast majority of the player base acts. Not to mention, having been in /Legit for quite a while, don't assume that everyone there is a Saint.
Worse, no system known to man, has ever been able to consistently pick out the 'Good Guys' for positions of power. In fact the only adage that I know of that I actually believe might work is paraphrasing Gore Vidal:
Apart from this, the best you can hope for is pot luck, and there are far more selfish people out there then altruistic ones, and even then sub-conscious biases or gradual corruption is pretty much inevitable.
I just want to say I run in legit almost exclusively. I wouldn't trust myself to be unbiased. It takes a rare saintlike person to do that. None of us are saints, if we were we wouldn't be playing video games we'd be out helping the poor, fighting for justice etc.
The red part makes it no better. That's just saying that it won't just be 0.000001% of the population I'll listen to it'll be 0.000002%. It makes it no better at all.
If this discussion are to move forward the arguments that its shouldent happend might be better left alone or moved to another thread.
Imho it would be more fruitfull if we try to dictate under which conditions an advocate would work best and what its role should involve.
Yea I feared that it would hit me in the back :-).
I should have phrased it differently and will so now. What I mean is that to argue why its a bad idea has its limits and has been presented in abundance. I am pretty sure that as its been presented by devs on each class forum it is going through and it will probably be more constructive if people also included how they want it to work if its to avoid the things that would make it fail.
So only some feedback is valid. The rest should hit the the circular file cabinet. You don't see this as another glaring over obvious example of the problem do you. This is the problem in a microcosm, someone getting to decide that others opinions don't matter before submitting them to the devs.
I just want to say I run in legit almost exclusively. I wouldn't trust myself to be unbiased. It takes a rare saintlike person to do that. None of us are saints, if we were we wouldn't be playing video games we'd be out helping the poor, fighting for justice etc.
The red part makes it no better. That's just saying that it won't just be 0.000001% of the population I'll listen to it'll be 0.000002%. It makes it no better at all.
So only some feedback is valid. The rest should hit the the circular file cabinet. You don't see this as another glaring over obvious example of the problem do you. This is the problem in a microcosm, someone getting to decide that others opinions don't matter before submitting them to the devs.
QFT. I agree with all of this, and calls out why advocacy...if it happens...needs to be as class-centric, open, and transparent as possible. It's going to be hard as heck to implement in a way that doesn't exclude people who play the class and are not e-famous for it.
in my opinion, there are already class advocates and they are employed by PWE. there will always be opposing ideas here on the forums and among players. i doubt that this is something they would consider on that basis alone. and that's not even going into what percentage of players actually choose to visit or participate on the forums.
I completely agree with all this. Because the things Id consider someone a candidate for this, and the responsibilities, and duties required to do it adequately, is already employed or should be employed at pwe/cryptic doing it. Class leads are not a bad idea, but I believe class lead positions should be an idea implemented when a suitable balance is attained. What that "balance" is. I do not know. I hope cryptic does, maybe its right around the corner in mod5 idk. Class leads right now will just take major flack for things completely outta their control. Like the mods of the forums get. Whoever does volunteer I wish you the best. And hope your intentions are well.
Personally Im unhappy with the whole idea of it. But if nothing else, can we at least make it so that members on this team cant be in the same guild.
They will just start their own Phoenix Five guild and at first will do great things. Eventually Illyana wil start kidnapping good posters and sending them to limbo to quiet any questions, but everyone will start to realize the power went to her head and now we have take them all down!
err wait, sorry x-men plot. So confusing.
P.S. I still think this should be a paid liaison position, not a player position.
Personally Im unhappy with the whole idea of it. But if nothing else, can we at least make it so that members on this team cant be in the same guild.
At the very least the players who are chosen must have a completely clean record as in no temporary bans or investigations against them whatsoever in the past , on every other mmo I have ever played with community volunteers this is usually stated in the post inviting players to apply for such positions , looking at the applications right now some very very questionable players have applied.
cryptic, a subsidiary of PWE, has the most at stake considering they have the most time, effort, finances, etc vested into neverwinter so when i made the statement about PWE already has class advocates, as the creators and developers of the game, they will always have the ultimate FINAL say in what is implemented into the game.
their focus may not always be considered "right" but their direction is to make neverwinter a fun experience and a playable game.
class advocates on the other hand might be in theory a good idea, the problem lies in the focus. it's one thing for a player that has shown time and time again their overall dedication to neverwinter as a whole, but it is something entirely different for a player that has a competitive focus or has shown a consistent trend that may or may not be construed as constructive feedback towards the overall success of neverwinter. as players, we want a great game to play but not everyone has the same focus towards that goal. so thus lies the challenge with appointing player class advocates... who do you choose?
in the end, whether this is going to make any difference in the overall balancing of classes remains to be seen. if the nomination as class advocate is taken seriously by those appointed, it could prove to be a positive thing. or not.
Well, to be fair. Cryptics judgement in some of these cases has been known to be spotty. I recall a contest in Champions, to design a set of baddies for an upcoming rampage alert. The winner, submitted his entry incorrectly, technically disqualifying him. That alone caused issue. But it was later found out that the player, wasn't even an active player anymore and only submitted his entry to troll the contest.
I can't say I love the idea, but I want our feedback to be heard.
The idea I have about Devs since I started playing (Open-BETA) is that they don't have time to come here. Sometimes maybe they have time to read 1-2 posts but I quite sure the team is not big and they are always busy.
Having an advocate won't be perfect, but it's better than having nothing and having 50+ posts about something going ignored.
I suggest adding "Weekly/Monthly Community Report" to this idea. This report will consist of the feedback sent to the Devs, all sent feedback would be presented in this Report. Such report would ease everyone's worries and people would see what is being said.
This report could be posted at "Gameplay" forums where all classes' feedback woud be compiled into 1 post.
Just a copy&paste, with a title and class' sections.
1. It's better than what we have now.
2. Transparency - Aggregation/Summary presented to Devs cannot be PM'd it must be posted publicly and harvested by CM/Devs.
This is just adding yet another layer of bureaucracy. We already have the Moderators who read the forums everyday, have experience playing the classes, and the playing game. They are already trusted agents of Cryptic, just ask them for a summary of the feedback.
This is just adding yet another layer of bureaucracy. We already have the Moderators who read the forums everyday, have experience playing the classes, and the playing game. They are already trusted agents of Cryptic, just ask them for a summary of the feedback.
Are they playing any of it at a high level though?
Are they playing any of it at a high level though?
Does it matter? This is the problem with the advocates, they're suppossed to just compile what everyone else says but everyone that volunteers for it is going to try to only give their own opinions. The ideal advocate will have never logged in before and will just take what people are saying compile it to an easy to read form and give it to the devs. You absolutely don't want someone that plays at a "high" level, because they will abuse things. If you've logged in to the game you will abuse the position, it's human nature.
Does it matter? This is the problem with the advocates, they're suppossed to just compile what everyone else says but everyone that volunteers for it is going to try to only give their own opinions. The ideal advocate will have never logged in before and will just take what people are saying compile it to an easy to read form and give it to the devs. You absolutely don't want someone that plays at a "high" level, because they will abuse things. If you've logged in to the game you will abuse the position, it's human nature.
Right, unless I'm completely misunderstanding, you responded to someone saying the moderators should do the function of the advocates by asking if the moderators play at high level. To me that meant you think that the advocates should play at "high" level and that the moderators may not. If I'm misunderstanding what you are meaning please explain it to me because I really don't get it.
Right, unless I'm completely misunderstanding, you responded to someone saying the moderators should do the function of the advocates by asking if the moderators play at high level. To me that meant you think that the advocates should play at "high" level and that the moderators may not. If I'm misunderstanding what you are meaning please explain it to me because I really don't get it.
Was referring to Cryptic as an entity, the devs more specifically but the whole system in general. Someone along the chains of command should be playing the game at a high level whether be it the messenger who collects the feedback, the decision maker or the coders.
So I'm wondering, do any of them play any aspect of the game at a high level?
I was specifically referring to the Moderators, not Cryptic as a whole, so your question of do they play at high level should mean the Moderators only. To answer that question about the Moderators, I do know at least two of them do. More than likely all of them do. Their level however is irrelevant to the function. The proposed "Class Advocate" is supposed to give feedback from the community as a whole, not their own, nor is it supposed to be from any level/skill/style or any other type of qualifier. My position is that this should just be a natural extension of the duties that the Moderators already perform.
Whoever winds up giving this feedback needs to be able to compile and summarize objectively the information that the community presents. Their level is immaterial to these primary skills. Outside of the Moderators, I highly doubt anyone else in the chain plays consistently at the level you are asking for.
Are they playing any of it at a high level though?
I am in guild with at least 2 of the moderators of this forum. I can say that, yes, they are all level 60 and quite heavily decked out and skilled in at least a couple characters. In fact one of them helped me learn the cleric when I first started playing.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
So since these advocates need no skill other than logging in the game as charnonous stated, will they be filtering troll/useless feedback or will they be putting everything on an equal bullet point to forward to the devs?
So since these advocates need no skill other than logging in the game as charnonous stated, will they be filtering troll/useless feedback or will they be putting everything on an equal bullet point to forward to the devs?
Thats a distinction they shouldn't be making because the line between them legitimately excluding "troll" feedback (rare) and feedback they don't agree with, is microscopic and will result in abuse. If they filter at all this is a failure.
Comments
And then there is the fact that here are players who share the same interests and don't operate on principle but rather on what benefits them regardless of the damage done to others. Unfortunately, as usual in groups of humans there is a significant cohesion amongst them which enables them to work more efficiently than the remaining unorganized, non-zealous, sane joe-averages. This means if the class advocate is someone of such a group, and we already see these groups moving foreward, then you will not only challenge one person, but you will stand against a whole group. My life experience has taught me that in such cases the reasonable, sane, informed and involved individual who attempts to prevent a train-crash and challenges such a power will get abandoned by the other sane average joes, and eventually will lose and be doomed to watch to train-crash happen. The cases in which this kind of tragedy do not happen are rare, very rare, and I hope that there is enough maturity in this community that we at least realize our shortcomings and don't go there.
Drop the idea of 'class advocates', if you want to improve the game by listening to the players, then fix bugs, thx.
Pretty new to the forums here, but I have been playing MMOs for a while. And my view is this nails it. The idea at its base of having advocates is just a bad idea. It never really works to the benefit of all players. With that said, I want to say upfront that I am a PVE player, I do not play PVP at all, it just doesn't interest me. Being such, as I spend some time the last few days reading the forums when bored, it is painfully obvious that they lean, almost completely, towards PVP and its faults etc. The one thing that I have noticed in all PVE based games, is that a PVP leaning forum can really mess up the works with its ever persistent quest for "class Balance". And honestly nothing in the comments in this string, or in general really, make me feel confident that who ever is elected will make that the focus. Which will more then likely have a negative impact on PVE in the overall scheme.
Overall I believe that when developers start to cater to the masses (which ironically isnt even the point sense forum posters are the minority of the minority of the overall player base) then like what is quoted above you get mayhem. So if you are deadset on making these "advocates" then I would recommend that you have at least 2 for each class, 1 PVE and 1 PVP, that is the only way I see that it could not as easily be abused.
If you want to missunderstand its rather easy ) the point was talk to others not a selected few that suits your interrest.
I agree and I think thats about what am been writing.
I dont all oppinion here is important if we are to make the best out of this. LOL a good argument isent always valid though :-).
Again all your argument is why this is a bad idea and how human has proven to abuse power/trust to its own agenda. Now if we going to recite litterature for and against human nature we are in for a loooooooooooooooooong ride indeed so lets not at least not on this thread(the subject is highly interresting though and I can do this with you if you like as one of my majors are in behavior science).
If this discussion are to move forward the arguments that its shouldent happend might be better left alone or moved to another thread.
Imho it would be more fruitfull if we try to dictate under which conditions an advocate would work best and what its role should involve.
If you read the devs explanations earlier on this thread it pretty much explains that when it comes to power the advocate shouldent put his hopes to high.
As you can read below...
Best
If this discussion are to move forward the arguments that its shouldent happend might be better left alone or moved to another thread.
Imho it would be more fruitfull if we try to dictate under which conditions an advocate would work best and what its role should involve.
Ok this is extremely troubling, last I checked the title of this thread was feedback, so basically what you are saying is that anyone that has feedback opposite of what you believenshould be moved to another thread? Basically you are making his argument of WHY this is a bad idea. So what about when the advocates are chosen (which for some reason I think they may have already been) can we expect the same treatment. Anyone that doesn't agree with suggested changes should be moved to another thread?
Actually, the part I left out was even worse! I don't want my class advocate diluting my class's feedback with opinions from other class advocates. It's not the <insert class here> Advocate's job to see what some other class thinks of his class. It's to represent the class he was chosen for.
I could not care less what the CW advocate thinks of HRs, for example. I want the HR advocate focusing on what we as HRs tell him to focus on...and absolutely nothing more than that.
Even more wrongheaded than playing favourites with who you would listen to, you compound it by saying your presentations to Cryptic would be coloured by what other classes would have to say about yours.
No, no thank you.
Hilariously, this is doomed to backfire, as now instead of nebulous ignorance on whether or not the devs ever listen to us, there will be a bona fide "official" channel for player grief (the advocate) and seeing opportunity to have their voices heard, the caterwauling will, in fact, multiply. Anyone (and expect this to be a large number of folks before too long) who does not get a pat on the head and quick assurances from their advocate that whatever gripe is being looked at, fixed, nerfed, etc. will stream out onto general discussion and repeat their grievance, only even angrier than they would have been under the old, reliable nerf QQ system we have now.
To the future Advocates: enjoy being a "grief funnel". Your heart might be in the right place as you sign on to this mess, but the heart isn't where you're gonna get kicked. Wear a cup.
Yea I feared that it would hit me in the back :-).
I should have phrased it differently and will so now. What I mean is that to argue why its a bad idea has its limits and has been presented in abundance. I am pretty sure that as its been presented by devs on each class forum it is going through and it will probably be more constructive if people also included how they want it to work if its to avoid the things that would make it fail.
I dont mean to restrict the voices that are against and I apologize for the bad wording(kinda tired I guess).
On this I dissagree. As this is a group game mostly understanding the mechanics of how your class intergrate with others are crusial to reach a balance among classes.
The notion of being a class advocate without understanding how changes would effect the game play in groups or toward other classes in pvp is not a good one imho.
Now you can argue that the advocate should be aware of the other classes and can agrue from its own class point of view but I think that taking in more information from the other advocates will in the long run make for changes that are better and more consistent.
If someone views something as bad and faulty then how in heavens name can he make suggestions on how it could work. It won't work, so what more is there to be said. I can't make constructive arguments on how it could work,when i believe that the whole idea has no way of working no matter how you implement it. It's like asking me to make constructive suggestions on how to cut someones head off in such a way that he/she may have a normal life ,without a head. He/she will be dead,the end.
Ha ha yea well that is one way of putting it. But if reality is that something is going to happend no matter how bad you think it is you have the option of refusing to take part of it or make the best of it.
I have been playing mmo for over 20 yaers now and I have seen advocate that manage to not only get the respect of the player base but also succeeded in making great changes to the class(one very good example was the warrior advocate in everquest that turned a more or less uselss class into one that was much liked in less then 4 month after he came to office).
If you live on a vulcano that are going active and dont want to move my suggestion is that instead of saying I dont like the volcano to erupt it might be better to help with the logistics of how to move the most efficient way :-).
I just want to say I run in legit almost exclusively. I wouldn't trust myself to be unbiased. It takes a rare saintlike person to do that. None of us are saints, if we were we wouldn't be playing video games we'd be out helping the poor, fighting for justice etc.
The red part makes it no better. That's just saying that it won't just be 0.000001% of the population I'll listen to it'll be 0.000002%. It makes it no better at all.
So only some feedback is valid. The rest should hit the the circular file cabinet. You don't see this as another glaring over obvious example of the problem do you. This is the problem in a microcosm, someone getting to decide that others opinions don't matter before submitting them to the devs.
QFT. I agree with all of this, and calls out why advocacy...if it happens...needs to be as class-centric, open, and transparent as possible. It's going to be hard as heck to implement in a way that doesn't exclude people who play the class and are not e-famous for it.
I completely agree with all this. Because the things Id consider someone a candidate for this, and the responsibilities, and duties required to do it adequately, is already employed or should be employed at pwe/cryptic doing it. Class leads are not a bad idea, but I believe class lead positions should be an idea implemented when a suitable balance is attained. What that "balance" is. I do not know. I hope cryptic does, maybe its right around the corner in mod5 idk. Class leads right now will just take major flack for things completely outta their control. Like the mods of the forums get. Whoever does volunteer I wish you the best. And hope your intentions are well.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
They will just start their own Phoenix Five guild and at first will do great things. Eventually Illyana wil start kidnapping good posters and sending them to limbo to quiet any questions, but everyone will start to realize the power went to her head and now we have take them all down!
err wait, sorry x-men plot. So confusing.
P.S. I still think this should be a paid liaison position, not a player position.
At the very least the players who are chosen must have a completely clean record as in no temporary bans or investigations against them whatsoever in the past , on every other mmo I have ever played with community volunteers this is usually stated in the post inviting players to apply for such positions , looking at the applications right now some very very questionable players have applied.
their focus may not always be considered "right" but their direction is to make neverwinter a fun experience and a playable game.
class advocates on the other hand might be in theory a good idea, the problem lies in the focus. it's one thing for a player that has shown time and time again their overall dedication to neverwinter as a whole, but it is something entirely different for a player that has a competitive focus or has shown a consistent trend that may or may not be construed as constructive feedback towards the overall success of neverwinter. as players, we want a great game to play but not everyone has the same focus towards that goal. so thus lies the challenge with appointing player class advocates... who do you choose?
in the end, whether this is going to make any difference in the overall balancing of classes remains to be seen. if the nomination as class advocate is taken seriously by those appointed, it could prove to be a positive thing. or not.
I can't say I love the idea, but I want our feedback to be heard.
The idea I have about Devs since I started playing (Open-BETA) is that they don't have time to come here. Sometimes maybe they have time to read 1-2 posts but I quite sure the team is not big and they are always busy.
Having an advocate won't be perfect, but it's better than having nothing and having 50+ posts about something going ignored.
I suggest adding "Weekly/Monthly Community Report" to this idea. This report will consist of the feedback sent to the Devs, all sent feedback would be presented in this Report. Such report would ease everyone's worries and people would see what is being said.
This report could be posted at "Gameplay" forums where all classes' feedback woud be compiled into 1 post.
Just a copy&paste, with a title and class' sections.
1. It's better than what we have now.
2. Transparency - Aggregation/Summary presented to Devs cannot be PM'd it must be posted publicly and harvested by CM/Devs.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Unless this happens, I don't see this lasting longer than module 5 due to people complaining.
Are they playing any of it at a high level though?
I was not referring to class advocates
Right, unless I'm completely misunderstanding, you responded to someone saying the moderators should do the function of the advocates by asking if the moderators play at high level. To me that meant you think that the advocates should play at "high" level and that the moderators may not. If I'm misunderstanding what you are meaning please explain it to me because I really don't get it.
Was referring to Cryptic as an entity, the devs more specifically but the whole system in general. Someone along the chains of command should be playing the game at a high level whether be it the messenger who collects the feedback, the decision maker or the coders.
So I'm wondering, do any of them play any aspect of the game at a high level?
Whoever winds up giving this feedback needs to be able to compile and summarize objectively the information that the community presents. Their level is immaterial to these primary skills. Outside of the Moderators, I highly doubt anyone else in the chain plays consistently at the level you are asking for.
I am in guild with at least 2 of the moderators of this forum. I can say that, yes, they are all level 60 and quite heavily decked out and skilled in at least a couple characters. In fact one of them helped me learn the cleric when I first started playing.
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Thats a distinction they shouldn't be making because the line between them legitimately excluding "troll" feedback (rare) and feedback they don't agree with, is microscopic and will result in abuse. If they filter at all this is a failure.