"Omg elections are going to be rigged, devs are going to blindly follow what advocates tell them and ruin the game." Think about this for a little.
Access to power is power. They will have a more direct connection to the dev's to make their voices heard above the noise more often. This extra access while not always listened to, does translate into more power to get their wants addressed.
I have read this thread and I am a bit suppriced that so many are against it.
THere are alot of oppinions of why its a bad idea and some what it would require to make if work but mostly why it wont work.
Let us look at the bigger picture here.
There has been to say the least many post about devs not listening to feedback on the test forum during the balancing of module 4 among just about all classes that has gone through a remake.
Now they (at least thats how one can interpret the intension) are trying to give each class a saying through a advocate.
You can say what you want about democracy but it usally works by someone getting elected and voicing the oppinions of others.
As in all changes poeple in general are against them for the simple rule of you know what you have but you dont know what you get.
One of the reason of why this might not work was written like this..
The downfall to any western civilization can be traced to a point wherein the citizenry was allowed to spend tax money.
Giving the players any kind of voice in this game's inner workings besides bug reporting is asking for a great deal of trouble. We do not deserve even the smallest amount of trust with the vision of how this game is "supposed" to be. We have proven, as a body, that we are selfish, cruel, shortsighted, overly-biased, unrepentant, boorish, impatient, undisciplined, and self-contradicting.
Even if the base of that argument is valid it all depends on who is elected(shosen) and the support/trust that person can achieve,
which leads to the next comment...
- is somewhat an academic. Giving an objective, unbiased report based on one's in-game experience is not an easy task. I can imagine that many players will nominate themselves with the idea of finally getting their subjective views (again, melody's post) through to the devs.
Lets asume that suggesting a class advocate is for the benevolence of all classes and their future development.
If it is handled right by the right person the potential is far greater then not having one, for example written like this...
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
Communication is the very essence to understanding and what all that are against a class advocate are voicing is the concern that the advocat will be communicating the wrong information to the devs, which would be the case if someone without out knowledge or with bias motives would be elected.
As the advocate is elected during a limited time period each time there will (hopefully) many advocates for each class and overall as long as the criteria for electing an advocate is valid the end result is imho much more likely to result in a better communication between devs and the players.
In conclution I think you should focus on the criteria for the advocate rather then why it can be a bad idea.
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
Because it perfectly highlights the problem. This poster only wants to take feedback from a certain group, possibly his guildies and friends, and the other advocates. Everyone else gets the finger. This is the type of cronyism that we are warning about. This is proof that the system is going to be broken by the people that become advocates.
Because it perfectly highlights the problem. This poster only wants to take feedback from a certain group, possibly his guildies and friends, and the other advocates. Everyone else gets the finger. This is the type of cronyism that we are warning about. This is proof that the system is going to be broken by the people that become advocates.
Again you conclude that a cerain advocate would act in a manner without actually knowing who will become the advocate.
To say that something is going to be broken before its even been tested is exactly the attitude that prevents progress.
Instead of trying to find ways to sink the idea before its even been tested, plz hightlight the pros and cons so that you can avoid most of the pits and enhance the benefits.
And argument is very seldom enhanced by saying no or yes but by expressing why and how....
Again you conclude that a cerain advocate would act in a manner without actually knowing who will become the advocate.
To say that something is going to be broken before its even been tested is exactly the attitude that prevents progress.
Instead of trying to find ways to sink the idea before its even been tested, plz hightlight the pros and cons so that you can avoid most of the pits and enhance the benefits.
And argument is very seldom enhanced by saying no or yes but by expressing why and how....
No to the currently proposed system because it would be wide open to abuse. As someone said, access to power IS power, not just in this case but in real life. (Think about the money lobbyists can make - there is a pretty obvious reason why they command such high remuneration.)
Worse, this advocate would be in a prime position to filter out views they dislike and push changes that benefit themselves. They will also almost inevitably have access to earlier and better information about forthcoming changes than other players, and this will translate into huge investment advantages for them and any friends/guildies they let in on such privileged information.
This is the way things always end up and why it is important to avoid setting up systems that can so easily be taken advantage of. Because if people can take advantage of something they will, as shown by the incredible number of exploits this game has had. (Curiously enough the set of the most serious abusers of past exploits and the set of those people applying for these posts may not be, err lets just say, totally separate.)
This is the way things always end up and why it is important to avoid setting up systems that can so easily be taken advantage of. Because if people can take advantage of something they will, as shown by the incredible number of exploits this game has had. (Curiously enough the set of the most serious abusers of past exploits and the set of those people applying for these posts may not be, err lets just say, totally separate.)
THIS
SO MUCH OF THIS ^^^^
Reading through the "let's do this, we can trust everyone!" posts today, I don't know if I should be worried about the human race, or relieved that there are still doe-eyed innocents out there.
I'll take option #2, I think... being a realist is enough of a downer without also being a pessimist.
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc) But I would also be talking to other advocates for other classes about what THEY see is troublesome about GF.
I wish I knew where you quoted this part from
Because it perfectly highlights the problem. This poster only wants to take feedback from a certain group, possibly his guildies and friends, and the other advocates. Everyone else gets the finger. This is the type of cronyism that we are warning about. This is proof that the system is going to be broken by the people that become advocates.
A problem? For someone who is very active here, you sure have some narrow minded ideas. But I'll humor this, I've listened to a lot crazier ideas. Lets say EVERYONE gets a shot. In my own example, I thought I'm a good CW. Decent damage compared to my gear. Just today, by chaning 1 spell, I realised how much my whole build sucked. Everyone todays seems to know everything. Hell, why raise the minimum wage to 20$? Why not make it 1000$? Might as well pay people with unicorns instead of money. Same thing here. People that have experience in the role will be the ones discussing this. Or maybe you prefer a thousands reports to Akro with "Increase damage of this by 500%, make my favorite ability prone the whole battleground" etc.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2014
Okay, we are going to keep this discussion respectful.
There will be no more accusations of wrong doing in this or any other thread or the accusers will be the ones reprimanded.
Hi all,this is my view of this "Brilliant Idea" called Class Advocates : Faulty. First of all I'd feel better if feedback was compiled by someone who doesn't have an invested interest in this or that class. It's better if Cryptic hired someone, Trained him/her on the intricacies of the Game and gave him/her the task,among other things, of compiling the Feedback and making suggestions. It would also help if the Devs randomly asked players,ingame, of what they think. For example a player would receive an email by the Devs ,asking for feedback and opinions. I am against Class Advocates coming from the player base and ,from what it seems, others too. It's a bad idea that will create more problems than it solves.
Edit : Thinking about it,does it even matter posting our opinions on the subject? I bet that if the Devs want it implemented it will be,no matter how many players protest.
People that have experience in the role will be the ones discussing this. Or maybe you prefer a thousands reports to Akro with "Increase damage of this by 500%, make my favorite ability prone the whole battleground" etc.
Thank you for perfectly illustrating why player advocacy is terrible. I don't have a problem with experienced players being put into a position to filter through posts to cherrypick or a million other little niggling ways of how subtle (or overt) corruption could strike at the advocate.
Not my point.
My point is that the devs should absolutely NOT be listening to us except for bug reports. The fact that they seek creative player feedback AT ALL is a problem. The devs need to do their thing without heeding the howling baying mass of players demanding this or that, and having appointed players from specific classes to distill this morass of an entire cow field's worth of dung into a capuccino-sized gulp does not make the manure more palatable or nutritious.
Oh but you propose the supercilious solution? "Fine, we'll just ignore the foolish masses and talk amongst the ones who truly understand the classes and game mechanics!"
Ahhhh yesss... but now you are properly ignoring all or most of the player feedback like the devs should, and wearing the game developer hat yourself. You have now become part of the creative team. In effect, you are now Cryptic. Only you aren't getting a paycheck. And you have the responsiblity to deal with the sobbing neverending stream of outrage from the players that you absolutely MUST ignore unless you want to fail -- while still keeping up the appearance that you give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> what anyone has to say at all.
SOUNDS GREAT! Sign me up! LOL
OR
Maybe just not even bother with the advocates in the first place. The devs can keep on ignoring us (like they should) and the forum will remain the strangled tangle of nerf QQ and vanity that it is supposed to be.
No to the currently proposed system because it would be wide open to abuse. As someone said, access to power IS power, not just in this case but in real life. (Think about the money lobbyists can make - there is a pretty obvious reason why they command such high remuneration.)
Again a system that is open to abuse is not the same as it being abused. And power is not more power then the devs gives the advocate role. You can also see this as devs has unlimited power but the advocate will become a control to this.
Worse, this advocate would be in a prime position to filter out views they dislike and push changes that benefit themselves. They will also almost inevitably have access to earlier and better information about forthcoming changes than other players, and this will translate into huge investment advantages for them and any friends/guildies they let in on such privileged information.
Again a good advocate will give a more balanced info to the devs and if that advocate is good at his role he will involve other class advocates and work together with valid inputs from all classes. When it comes to having information this is up to the devs and we do not know how this would work.
This is the way things always end up and why it is important to avoid setting up systems that can so easily be taken advantage of. Because if people can take advantage of something they will, as shown by the incredible number of exploits this game has had. (Curiously enough the set of the most serious abusers of past exploits and the set of those people applying for these posts may not be, err lets just say, totally separate.)
Ok now you been throughing example what can go wrong but again its has to be tested to actually see what happens. Hopefully the advocate shosen will not have a record of abuse (am pretty sure devs will check into this arent you?) All i see is - I dont trust anybody and am sure that who ever is shosen will abuse its power and the devs are to blind to see that.....
One way progress is made is by not wasting time and energy on a bad ideal and conserving it for more promising ones. Just look at the loudest voices advocating for their class on these forums. No nerf is acceptable and buffs are constantly suggested. You want to talk about democracy? Fine. Elected leaders spend 5% of their time governing and 95% expanding their faction's power base. And that's in the real world where actual lives and futures are effected by their decissions...
No you will always waste time comming up with new good changes as it involves trial and error per see. And comparing elected leaders in real life where their very future depends on them being elected again is somewhat taking it out of propotions.
Once again the succes of this depends on several factors like how much power does the devs give to the role as an advocate and how the advocate uses/abuses his role.
For those of you working in real life at a slightly higher corporate level this is how it mostly works for a reason.
The use of an advocate that represent a faction or an interrest is nothing new and have been used for a very long time. It all comes down to how much power is placed in the advocate hands and how the advocate act according to his role.
A good advocate with the ability to look at the big picure analyze information and cooperate with other classes advocates in a spirit to further the classes within the game can be a tremendous asset.
A bad one will most probably loose its trust with the devs and by that also its power to effect the role of its class.
As it stands I cant see that we have much to loose with trying as long as all works for making the advocates role as good as possible and electing somebody that meets the criteria for what makes a good advocate.
Worst case scenario it dont work out so well and we are well not much worse out then we allready are----
Thank you for perfectly illustrating why player advocacy is terrible. I don't have a problem with experienced players being put into a position to filter through posts to cherrypick or a million other little niggling ways of how subtle (or overt) corruption could strike at the advocate.
Not my point.
My point is that the devs should absolutely NOT be listening to us except for bug reports. The fact that they seek creative player feedback AT ALL is a problem. The devs need to do their thing without heeding the howling baying mass of players demanding this or that, and having appointed players from specific classes to distill this morass of an entire cow field's worth of dung into a capuccino-sized gulp does not make the manure more palatable or nutritious.
Oh but you propose the supercilious solution? "Fine, we'll just ignore the foolish masses and talk amongst the ones who truly understand the classes and game mechanics!"
Ahhhh yesss... but now you are properly ignoring all or most of the player feedback like the devs should, and wearing the game developer hat yourself. You have now become part of the creative team. In effect, you are now Cryptic. Only you aren't getting a paycheck. And you have the responsiblity to deal with the sobbing neverending stream of outrage from the players that you absolutely MUST ignore unless you want to fail -- while still keeping up the appearance that you give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> what anyone has to say at all.
SOUNDS GREAT! Sign me up! LOL
OR
Maybe just not even bother with the advocates in the first place. The devs can keep on ignoring us (like they should) and the forum will remain the strangled tangle of nerf QQ and vanity that it is supposed to be.
I must say i kinda laugh when i read this and as much as I on a level agree very much of what you write(the pure rhetorics are very amusing indeed)
it is based on negativism( your probably say reality) and adds nothing of value exept explaining how bad everthing is..
Also, I should add briefly that am 99% sure that the advocacy program is going to go forward. I suspect that the decision was made at Cryptic before it was ever announced on the forums, and I realize that all of my posts on this subject are largely pointless.
I'm honestly just setting up a couple of posts now in this thread so that in the future when everyone is bellyaching about how useless/awful/corrupt the advocacy program is, I can provide a link to some posts with a "told you so" wink.
in my opinion, there are already class advocates and they are employed by PWE. there will always be opposing ideas here on the forums and among players. i doubt that this is something they would consider on that basis alone. and that's not even going into what percentage of players actually choose to visit or participate on the forums.
I'm sorry Melody, but in my opinion the PWE employees are in no way player advocates. We have two very different goals; the player's is to enjoy themselves as much as humanly possible and PWE's is to profit as much as humanly possible through the vehicle of GaaS (Games as a Service). That's ok, PWE needs to profit in order for us to keep playing...but I do not, for a second, believe that PWE has my best interests at heart.
@Marnivial just saying ty for putting so much effort into this. I am very much for it too but I lost my path thanks to some people here that I have to deal with all the time... Just keep the good work going!
Again a system that is open to abuse is not the same as it being abused.
And yet in this game, every time when there is a beneficial bug/exploit it has been exploited as much as possible.
Your claim also goes against pretty much all human experience and every study of human nature ever done. For instance take the infamous Stanford prison experiment:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
But if you are saying that THIS time, unlike all of others, it will different, then I envy you your optimism, but I am under no such illusions.
The best way to avoid abuses is to set up a system that is as resilient as possible against it. But what is being suggested here, effectively putting a single (or small number of) players in such a privileged position has so many possibilities for self-gain that it is just asking for trouble in my opinion.
Again you conclude that a cerain advocate would act in a manner without actually knowing who will become the advocate.
To say that something is going to be broken before its even been tested is exactly the attitude that prevents progress.
Instead of trying to find ways to sink the idea before its even been tested, plz hightlight the pros and cons so that you can avoid most of the pits and enhance the benefits.
And argument is very seldom enhanced by saying no or yes but by expressing why and how....
Marnival, you're the one...yourself...who illustrated his point by saying you would seek out some small subset of players 'you' judge worthy of giving an opinion. Open this up for a vote, run on that specific comment, and I'll campaign as hard against you as possible.
Run the selection process in a completely open and transparent manner; only the players should be deciding who they want representing them.
Open a set of threads, one for each class, let the people who want to run for the position tell us why, let us ask them questions, and then let us decide. Send player email with links to that forum so no one playing can say "Hey, I didn't have any say in that!" and let the chips fall where they may.
Candidate criteria is simple, and the same as voter criteria; you want to be an advocate or vote for one in a class you must have a 60 in that class.
Marnival, you're the one...yourself...who illustrated his point by saying you would seek out some small subset of players 'you' judge worthy of giving an opinion. Open this up for a vote, run on that specific comment, and I'll campaign as hard against you as possible.
This is sadly a perfect illustration of the potential issues that WILL arise.
Even those players with the best of intentions initially will inevitably subconsciously 'flavour' their reports based on personal preferences and beliefs. And this is the BEST case scenario with someone who actually wants to do what they believe is the right thing.
Run the selection process in a completely open and transparent manner; only the players should be deciding who they want representing them.
Open a set of threads, one for each class, let the people who want to run for the position tell us why, let us ask them questions, and then let us decide. Send player email with links to that forum so no one playing can say "Hey, I didn't have any say in that!" and let the chips fall where they may.
Candidate criteria is simple, and the same as voter criteria; you want to be an advocate or vote for one in a class you must have a 60 in that class.
Simple idea, but sadly likely to come down to who has the most guildies, rather than based on any objective criteria.
Not that it is easy to come up with a better way of deciding who gets these positions, but this to me simply illustrates why this whole idea is fundamentally flawed.
And yet in this game, every time when there is a beneficial bug/exploit it has been exploited as much as possible.
Your claim also goes against pretty much all human experience and every study of human nature ever done. For instance take the infamous Stanford prison experiment:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
But if you are saying that THIS time, unlike all of others, it will different, then I envy you your optimism, but I am under no such illusions.
The best way to avoid abuses is to set up a system that is as resilient as possible against it. But what is being suggested here, effectively putting a single (or small number of) players in such a privileged position has so many possibilities for self-gain that it is just asking for trouble in my opinion
Well I only say NELSON MANDELA :cool:.
You also seem to forget channel :legit, and trust me if you see to the hole population very few has use the buggs/exploits (yea standing on a ledge or jumping ahead might be more common but not the worst buggs).
If you pick an elist player as advocate that only wants to kill everything as fast as possible and dont care for other classes or players you are in for a tough ride(but as i said before I think devs would find this out rather fast). But if the shoose a player that plays this game for fun (putting in a considerable time though) has several classes are interrested in how to incoorperate the class with others in both pvp and pve am pretty sure this will come to a happy ending.
I do agree that the system has to be somewhat resilitant to avoid abuse.
If the advocate also communicate to the populance what they are discussing and are open with his way of getting feedback this goes a long way to insure that we are on the right track.
@Marnivial just saying ty for putting so much effort into this. I am very much for it too but I lost my path thanks to some people here that I have to deal with all the time... Just keep the good work going!
Marnival, you're the one...yourself...who illustrated his point by saying you would seek out some small subset of players 'you' judge worthy of giving an opinion. Open this up for a vote, run on that specific comment, and I'll campaign as hard against you as possible.
Eum how did you come up with that .
If you read my post and that is your conclution I failed misserable am afraid...
Just for the record am not running I dont play cw or tr and only have 4 lvl 60 so am pretty sure there are some that can do a much better job at it then I ever could..
I know if I was selected for GF, Id still be looking to not only gather info from my fellow GFs that I respect (like Godmode,Dom,Marat,Xuven etc)...
That's how. By you saying that you have already pre-determined who you decided to solicit input from, i.e. those people you deem worthy of repsect. That's not how this should be working. Someone who genuinely wants to be an effective advocate need to talk to more than the experts...and in fact they need to talk to the people struggling with the class just as much if not more so. They need to be talking to everyone who plays the class who is willing to do so.
Additionally, while I'm here, I also think I take issue with the comments about wanting other class advocate opinions about the class you represent. That's not the advocate's job. By definition, the adovcate's job is to work for the class...advocate for the class...that they represent and present the class's position. It's Cryptic's job to take that feedback and manage balancing.
My .02
Anyone who thinks that being a class advocate would be an easy and fun job has no clue, none (and I am not saying you think so...it's just an "as long as I'm here" thing )
And please don't confuse my criticisms with a lack of respect for the work you are putting in lobbying for this. One is not the other
I guess I'll chime on this argument, and my thoughts can be summarized in something attributed to the creator of Pokemon. It's paraphrased, sure, because I can't remember the exact quote offhand, but it went something like this:
"If we implemented everything the players asked us to do, what we would be left with ultimately is an unplayable mess of a game. Sometimes we have to say 'sorry, but this just isn't doable'."
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
You also seem to forget channel :legit, and trust me if you see to the hole population very few has use the buggs/exploits (yea standing on a ledge or jumping ahead might be more common but not the worst buggs).
Err, the reason why people like Nelson Mandala was so admired is because they are so RARE and that the vast majority of the time people are not despite the best efforts of society.
And if you want to further prove my point about how even people with the best of intentions inevitably STILL, even against their deepest beliefs, cause issues just read up about how much his wife got away with, simply because he trusted her....
As for /Legit, it is a tiny fraction of the player-base, which again strengthens the argument against this system. The very fact that it had to be formed is a huge glaring huge neon sign illustrating how the vast majority of the player base acts. Not to mention, having been in /Legit for quite a while, don't assume that everyone there is a Saint.
Worse, no system known to man, has ever been able to consistently pick out the 'Good Guys' for positions of power. In fact the only adage that I know of that I actually believe might work is paraphrasing Gore Vidal:
Anyone who is prepared to run for political office should automatically, by definition, be disqualified from ever doing so.
Apart from this, the best you can hope for is pot luck, and there are far more selfish people out there then altruistic ones, and even then sub-conscious biases or gradual corruption is pretty much inevitable.
I guess I'll chime on this argument, and my thoughts can be summarized in something attributed to the creator of Pokemon. It's paraphrased, sure, because I can't remember the exact quote offhand, but it went something like this:
"If we implemented everything the players asked us to do, what we would be left with ultimately is an unplayable mess of a game. Sometimes we have to say 'sorry, but this just isn't doable'."
I think there is a huge difference between wanting to create a team of advocates to act as filters, as a focus group, and provide class-consensus feedback to the developers and anyone having any expectation that this body would somehow be making design decisions.
It's possible you're defending a gate that isn't being attacked.
I think there is a huge difference between wanting to create a team of advocates to act as filters, as a focus group, and provide class-consensus feedback to the developers and anyone having any expectation that this body would somehow be making design decisions.
It's possible you're defending a gate that isn't being attacked.
More along the lines of saying that not everything that the advocates suggest should be implemented--presuming, of course, that the advocates are to speak for the whole of the player base.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
More along the lines of saying that not everything that the advocates suggest should be implemented--presuming, of course, that the advocates are to speak for the whole of the player base.
Well, that's impossible for me to debate with you since I agree comepletely.
Comments
Access to power is power. They will have a more direct connection to the dev's to make their voices heard above the noise more often. This extra access while not always listened to, does translate into more power to get their wants addressed.
THere are alot of oppinions of why its a bad idea and some what it would require to make if work but mostly why it wont work.
Let us look at the bigger picture here.
There has been to say the least many post about devs not listening to feedback on the test forum during the balancing of module 4 among just about all classes that has gone through a remake.
Now they (at least thats how one can interpret the intension) are trying to give each class a saying through a advocate.
You can say what you want about democracy but it usally works by someone getting elected and voicing the oppinions of others.
As in all changes poeple in general are against them for the simple rule of you know what you have but you dont know what you get.
One of the reason of why this might not work was written like this..
Even if the base of that argument is valid it all depends on who is elected(shosen) and the support/trust that person can achieve,
which leads to the next comment...
Lets asume that suggesting a class advocate is for the benevolence of all classes and their future development.
If it is handled right by the right person the potential is far greater then not having one, for example written like this...
Communication is the very essence to understanding and what all that are against a class advocate are voicing is the concern that the advocat will be communicating the wrong information to the devs, which would be the case if someone without out knowledge or with bias motives would be elected.
As the advocate is elected during a limited time period each time there will (hopefully) many advocates for each class and overall as long as the criteria for electing an advocate is valid the end result is imho much more likely to result in a better communication between devs and the players.
In conclution I think you should focus on the criteria for the advocate rather then why it can be a bad idea.
Best
I wish I knew where you quoted this part from Because it perfectly highlights the problem. This poster only wants to take feedback from a certain group, possibly his guildies and friends, and the other advocates. Everyone else gets the finger. This is the type of cronyism that we are warning about. This is proof that the system is going to be broken by the people that become advocates.
Again you conclude that a cerain advocate would act in a manner without actually knowing who will become the advocate.
To say that something is going to be broken before its even been tested is exactly the attitude that prevents progress.
Instead of trying to find ways to sink the idea before its even been tested, plz hightlight the pros and cons so that you can avoid most of the pits and enhance the benefits.
And argument is very seldom enhanced by saying no or yes but by expressing why and how....
I'm a misanthrope. If the answer to who becomes an advocate is a human being I feel safe in saying they will act in that manner.
This doesn't even get into the fact that the person you quoted flat out said that was his plan in the quote you had.
No to the currently proposed system because it would be wide open to abuse. As someone said, access to power IS power, not just in this case but in real life. (Think about the money lobbyists can make - there is a pretty obvious reason why they command such high remuneration.)
Worse, this advocate would be in a prime position to filter out views they dislike and push changes that benefit themselves. They will also almost inevitably have access to earlier and better information about forthcoming changes than other players, and this will translate into huge investment advantages for them and any friends/guildies they let in on such privileged information.
This is the way things always end up and why it is important to avoid setting up systems that can so easily be taken advantage of. Because if people can take advantage of something they will, as shown by the incredible number of exploits this game has had. (Curiously enough the set of the most serious abusers of past exploits and the set of those people applying for these posts may not be, err lets just say, totally separate.)
THIS
SO MUCH OF THIS ^^^^
Reading through the "let's do this, we can trust everyone!" posts today, I don't know if I should be worried about the human race, or relieved that there are still doe-eyed innocents out there.
I'll take option #2, I think... being a realist is enough of a downer without also being a pessimist.
A problem? For someone who is very active here, you sure have some narrow minded ideas. But I'll humor this, I've listened to a lot crazier ideas. Lets say EVERYONE gets a shot. In my own example, I thought I'm a good CW. Decent damage compared to my gear. Just today, by chaning 1 spell, I realised how much my whole build sucked. Everyone todays seems to know everything. Hell, why raise the minimum wage to 20$? Why not make it 1000$? Might as well pay people with unicorns instead of money. Same thing here. People that have experience in the role will be the ones discussing this. Or maybe you prefer a thousands reports to Akro with "Increase damage of this by 500%, make my favorite ability prone the whole battleground" etc.
There will be no more accusations of wrong doing in this or any other thread or the accusers will be the ones reprimanded.
Edit : Thinking about it,does it even matter posting our opinions on the subject? I bet that if the Devs want it implemented it will be,no matter how many players protest.
Thank you for perfectly illustrating why player advocacy is terrible. I don't have a problem with experienced players being put into a position to filter through posts to cherrypick or a million other little niggling ways of how subtle (or overt) corruption could strike at the advocate.
Not my point.
My point is that the devs should absolutely NOT be listening to us except for bug reports. The fact that they seek creative player feedback AT ALL is a problem. The devs need to do their thing without heeding the howling baying mass of players demanding this or that, and having appointed players from specific classes to distill this morass of an entire cow field's worth of dung into a capuccino-sized gulp does not make the manure more palatable or nutritious.
Oh but you propose the supercilious solution? "Fine, we'll just ignore the foolish masses and talk amongst the ones who truly understand the classes and game mechanics!"
Ahhhh yesss... but now you are properly ignoring all or most of the player feedback like the devs should, and wearing the game developer hat yourself. You have now become part of the creative team. In effect, you are now Cryptic. Only you aren't getting a paycheck. And you have the responsiblity to deal with the sobbing neverending stream of outrage from the players that you absolutely MUST ignore unless you want to fail -- while still keeping up the appearance that you give a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> what anyone has to say at all.
SOUNDS GREAT! Sign me up! LOL
OR
Maybe just not even bother with the advocates in the first place. The devs can keep on ignoring us (like they should) and the forum will remain the strangled tangle of nerf QQ and vanity that it is supposed to be.
Again a good advocate will give a more balanced info to the devs and if that advocate is good at his role he will involve other class advocates and work together with valid inputs from all classes. When it comes to having information this is up to the devs and we do not know how this would work.
Ok now you been throughing example what can go wrong but again its has to be tested to actually see what happens. Hopefully the advocate shosen will not have a record of abuse (am pretty sure devs will check into this arent you?) All i see is - I dont trust anybody and am sure that who ever is shosen will abuse its power and the devs are to blind to see that.....
No you will always waste time comming up with new good changes as it involves trial and error per see. And comparing elected leaders in real life where their very future depends on them being elected again is somewhat taking it out of propotions.
Once again the succes of this depends on several factors like how much power does the devs give to the role as an advocate and how the advocate uses/abuses his role.
For those of you working in real life at a slightly higher corporate level this is how it mostly works for a reason.
The use of an advocate that represent a faction or an interrest is nothing new and have been used for a very long time. It all comes down to how much power is placed in the advocate hands and how the advocate act according to his role.
A good advocate with the ability to look at the big picure analyze information and cooperate with other classes advocates in a spirit to further the classes within the game can be a tremendous asset.
A bad one will most probably loose its trust with the devs and by that also its power to effect the role of its class.
As it stands I cant see that we have much to loose with trying as long as all works for making the advocates role as good as possible and electing somebody that meets the criteria for what makes a good advocate.
Worst case scenario it dont work out so well and we are well not much worse out then we allready are----
I must say i kinda laugh when i read this and as much as I on a level agree very much of what you write(the pure rhetorics are very amusing indeed)
it is based on negativism( your probably say reality) and adds nothing of value exept explaining how bad everthing is..
I'm honestly just setting up a couple of posts now in this thread so that in the future when everyone is bellyaching about how useless/awful/corrupt the advocacy program is, I can provide a link to some posts with a "told you so" wink.
I'm sorry Melody, but in my opinion the PWE employees are in no way player advocates. We have two very different goals; the player's is to enjoy themselves as much as humanly possible and PWE's is to profit as much as humanly possible through the vehicle of GaaS (Games as a Service). That's ok, PWE needs to profit in order for us to keep playing...but I do not, for a second, believe that PWE has my best interests at heart.
And yet in this game, every time when there is a beneficial bug/exploit it has been exploited as much as possible.
Your claim also goes against pretty much all human experience and every study of human nature ever done. For instance take the infamous Stanford prison experiment:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment
But if you are saying that THIS time, unlike all of others, it will different, then I envy you your optimism, but I am under no such illusions.
The best way to avoid abuses is to set up a system that is as resilient as possible against it. But what is being suggested here, effectively putting a single (or small number of) players in such a privileged position has so many possibilities for self-gain that it is just asking for trouble in my opinion.
Marnival, you're the one...yourself...who illustrated his point by saying you would seek out some small subset of players 'you' judge worthy of giving an opinion. Open this up for a vote, run on that specific comment, and I'll campaign as hard against you as possible.
Open a set of threads, one for each class, let the people who want to run for the position tell us why, let us ask them questions, and then let us decide. Send player email with links to that forum so no one playing can say "Hey, I didn't have any say in that!" and let the chips fall where they may.
Candidate criteria is simple, and the same as voter criteria; you want to be an advocate or vote for one in a class you must have a 60 in that class.
This is sadly a perfect illustration of the potential issues that WILL arise.
Even those players with the best of intentions initially will inevitably subconsciously 'flavour' their reports based on personal preferences and beliefs. And this is the BEST case scenario with someone who actually wants to do what they believe is the right thing.
Simple idea, but sadly likely to come down to who has the most guildies, rather than based on any objective criteria.
Not that it is easy to come up with a better way of deciding who gets these positions, but this to me simply illustrates why this whole idea is fundamentally flawed.
Well I only say NELSON MANDELA :cool:.
You also seem to forget channel :legit, and trust me if you see to the hole population very few has use the buggs/exploits (yea standing on a ledge or jumping ahead might be more common but not the worst buggs).
If you pick an elist player as advocate that only wants to kill everything as fast as possible and dont care for other classes or players you are in for a tough ride(but as i said before I think devs would find this out rather fast). But if the shoose a player that plays this game for fun (putting in a considerable time though) has several classes are interrested in how to incoorperate the class with others in both pvp and pve am pretty sure this will come to a happy ending.
I do agree that the system has to be somewhat resilitant to avoid abuse.
If the advocate also communicate to the populance what they are discussing and are open with his way of getting feedback this goes a long way to insure that we are on the right track.
Much appreciated
Best
If you read my post and that is your conclution I failed misserable am afraid...
Just for the record am not running I dont play cw or tr and only have 4 lvl 60 so am pretty sure there are some that can do a much better job at it then I ever could..
How did I come up with that? Really?
That's how. By you saying that you have already pre-determined who you decided to solicit input from, i.e. those people you deem worthy of repsect. That's not how this should be working. Someone who genuinely wants to be an effective advocate need to talk to more than the experts...and in fact they need to talk to the people struggling with the class just as much if not more so. They need to be talking to everyone who plays the class who is willing to do so.
Additionally, while I'm here, I also think I take issue with the comments about wanting other class advocate opinions about the class you represent. That's not the advocate's job. By definition, the adovcate's job is to work for the class...advocate for the class...that they represent and present the class's position. It's Cryptic's job to take that feedback and manage balancing.
My .02
Anyone who thinks that being a class advocate would be an easy and fun job has no clue, none (and I am not saying you think so...it's just an "as long as I'm here" thing
And please don't confuse my criticisms with a lack of respect for the work you are putting in lobbying for this. One is not the other
"If we implemented everything the players asked us to do, what we would be left with ultimately is an unplayable mess of a game. Sometimes we have to say 'sorry, but this just isn't doable'."
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Err, the reason why people like Nelson Mandala was so admired is because they are so RARE and that the vast majority of the time people are not despite the best efforts of society.
And if you want to further prove my point about how even people with the best of intentions inevitably STILL, even against their deepest beliefs, cause issues just read up about how much his wife got away with, simply because he trusted her....
As for /Legit, it is a tiny fraction of the player-base, which again strengthens the argument against this system. The very fact that it had to be formed is a huge glaring huge neon sign illustrating how the vast majority of the player base acts. Not to mention, having been in /Legit for quite a while, don't assume that everyone there is a Saint.
Worse, no system known to man, has ever been able to consistently pick out the 'Good Guys' for positions of power. In fact the only adage that I know of that I actually believe might work is paraphrasing Gore Vidal:
Apart from this, the best you can hope for is pot luck, and there are far more selfish people out there then altruistic ones, and even then sub-conscious biases or gradual corruption is pretty much inevitable.
I think there is a huge difference between wanting to create a team of advocates to act as filters, as a focus group, and provide class-consensus feedback to the developers and anyone having any expectation that this body would somehow be making design decisions.
It's possible you're defending a gate that isn't being attacked.
More along the lines of saying that not everything that the advocates suggest should be implemented--presuming, of course, that the advocates are to speak for the whole of the player base.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Well, that's impossible for me to debate with you since I agree comepletely.