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Dragonborn Pack available on the zen store for 7500.

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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    if you're going to get into a legal discussion, we're going to lock this thread. if you want to legally challenge the price points of this sale, you need to contact PWE at customerservice@perfectworld.com.

    PWE posted a price for something they created so there is no precedent for a suggested retail price on it. previous packs have sold for $199, $59, $39 and $19 and based on what the price of individual items might cost, there's also the fact that the dragonborn race itself is not something they sell separately. they have the ability to do that. it is in the ToS.

    they also have the right to change prices and items without notice.

    if you think this is unfair... okay... you can even provide that feedback respectfully. but if you want to argue legal points we're going to refer you to PWE's legal department. we're not going to get into a legal discussion here on the forums.

    thanks.
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    zombieelviszombieelvis Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    if you're going to get into a legal discussion, we're going to lock this thread. if you want to legally challenge the price points of this sale, you need to contact PWE at customerservice@perfectworld.com.

    PWE posted a price for something they created so there is no precedent for a suggested retail price on it. previous packs have sold for $199, $59, $39 and $19 and based on what the price of individual items might cost, there's also the fact that the dragonborn race itself is not something they sell separately. they have the ability to do that. it is in the ToS.

    they also have the right to change prices and items without notice.

    if you think this is unfair... okay... you can even provide that feedback respectfully. but if you want to argue legal points we're going to refer you to PWE's legal department. we're not going to get into a legal discussion here on the forums.

    thanks.

    They set a precedent for the price when they listed it at $100, thus setting a regular or ordinary price.

    Changing their prices isn't the issue here. If the item was listed at $100 and then changed to $75, without any sale involved, there would be no real issue. Sure some people may not like it, but it's not illegal.

    Changing a price of an item after it was on a limited-time sale is the issue.
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    cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Wow. A lot of people in here must despise visiting retail stores - where pretty much every "original price" is a jacked up number that the product was never sold for...

    Look at it this way - the package has proven so popular that they've extended the sale, and expanded it to the zen market. Any better? Now people who didn't have the cash on hand, but had the zen, or those who didn't have the cash until the original sale ending date can take advantage of it.

    I paid up front for it. I wanted the items - which they improved - as much as the race.

    Now, if they had *cut* the price to lower than $75 / 7500zen, I would have been upset. But I'm not going to get upset that people get a chance to pay the same price I did.
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    obumbrataobumbrata Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    cdnbison wrote: »
    Wow. A lot of people in here must despise visiting retail stores - where pretty much every "original price" is a jacked up number that the product was never sold for...

    Look at it this way - the package has proven so popular that they've extended the sale, and expanded it to the zen market. Any better? Now people who didn't have the cash on hand, but had the zen, or those who didn't have the cash until the original sale ending date can take advantage of it.

    I paid up front for it. I wanted the items - which they improved - as much as the race.

    Now, if they had *cut* the price to lower than $75 / 7500zen, I would have been upset. But I'm not going to get upset that people get a chance to pay the same price I did.

    Well, they kinda did. Yes, it's 7500 zen to get the pack, which equates to $75. But, you don't actually -pay- $75 to get that much zen, with bonuses and the like. It's like....all the players that use zen are getting free coupons to use.
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    thetrueazurethetrueazure Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 17 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    My personal hope is that pre-purchasers will be credited with some kind of bonus for pre-purchasing at some point. I think that might go a long way in calming nerves and casting a more positive light on the whole thing. Reward those willing to invest and so on. :)

    Personally, I think reducing the price and making it available to those unwilling to spend money on the game is not in itself a bad move at all. The community was thunderously in favor of it. I myself was one of the people clamoring that the price at 100 dollars was too high, even.

    The way it was done, however, was less than ideal, and has quite clearly left a bad taste in the mouths of pre-purchasers - especially those who had no option but to pay in Euro and thus suffer higher prices than they would if they purchased Zen. :(

    So, I hope something can be done to soften the impact for everyone.


    And remember, peeps - being polite, even in this situation, is important. Anger and discontent is understandable, but there's real people on the other side of the line, and they don't like being hissed and spat at any more than you would. Not to mention that screaming, flailing and yelling just makes you look bad and actually detracts from any arguments you might present. It makes them less likely to listen, not more.
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    vrtesseractvrtesseract Member Posts: 631 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I agree maybe give prepurchasers something like a title or something like Early dragon or something equally cosmetic. or give a slightly different assortment of items in the zen pack... nothing major just enough so its obvious who prepaid so we can feel leet. of course thepeople in this game would probibly find a reason to complain about that as well.

    What they could have done is said something along the lines of due to numerous requests we will be offering the pack at the 75$ price in the zen store. As its probably the truth due to so many people saying the pack was not worth 100$ but at that point it would be our fault not cryptics. or if they had just said it would be offered for zen after release people might be less angry.

    Cause really they are extending the sale possibly for good and making it MORE accessable at a better price cause WE asked them to lower the price its not really fair to slap cryptic for lowering a price.
    they aren't going to give us a refund cause we complain. but what they probably will do is think twice before lowering any other prices because we ask since they would be afraid of insulting everyone who already bought the item at full price.

    I pre-bought the pack but im happy they are extending the 75$ price. I think this says they are listening to people when we say prices are to high.
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    charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    My personal hope is that pre-purchasers will be credited with some kind of bonus for pre-purchasing at some point. I think that might go a long way in calming nerves and casting a more positive light on the whole thing. Reward those willing to invest and so on. :)

    Personally, I think reducing the price and making it available to those unwilling to spend money on the game is not in itself a bad move at all. The community was thunderously in favor of it. I myself was one of the people clamoring that the price at 100 dollars was too high, even.

    The way it was done, however, was less than ideal, and has quite clearly left a bad taste in the mouths of pre-purchasers - especially those who had no option but to pay in Euro and thus suffer higher prices than they would if they purchased Zen. :(

    So, I hope something can be done to soften the impact for everyone.


    And remember, peeps - being polite, even in this situation, is important. Anger and discontent is understandable, but there's real people on the other side of the line, and they don't like being hissed and spat at any more than you would. Not to mention that screaming, flailing and yelling just makes you look bad and actually detracts from any arguments you might present. It makes them less likely to listen, not more.
    This is the best post in the thread.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    cdnbison wrote: »
    Wow. A lot of people in here must despise visiting retail stores - where pretty much every "original price" is a jacked up number that the product was never sold for...

    Look at it this way - the package has proven so popular that they've extended the sale, and expanded it to the zen market. Any better? Now people who didn't have the cash on hand, but had the zen, or those who didn't have the cash until the original sale ending date can take advantage of it.

    I paid up front for it. I wanted the items - which they improved - as much as the race.

    Now, if they had *cut* the price to lower than $75 / 7500zen, I would have been upset. But I'm not going to get upset that people get a chance to pay the same price I did.

    Actually retail stores are still required by law to have sold the items for rrp even if they have ways of limiting availability of that to get round it. Here they never offered it at the full price. If we bought a 25% discount, then we should have a 25% refund. That's what was offered, and that's what I should expect.
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    refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    haldan1968 wrote: »
    The point is that you have upset the clients who WOULD spend that kind of money to run around a pretend world with their pretend lizard-dragon man.

    And that's a very bad business decision.

    Well said!

    I do not feel particularly angry about it. But I certainly feel very much like I have been treated this day with no respect and have been taken for some kind of mug.

    They must think I am some kind of **** or something, when this is the time I would very likely have paid another €179.99 for 21,600 Zen (my AD are very low and I have no Preservation Wards left).

    I would NEVER have paid €71.24 (8,600 Zen-equivalent) for the Dragonborn pack if it had not been for their misleading misrepresentation. I would have bought 21,600 Zen again and the moment Module 4 went live, I would have bought the pack on the Zen market for 7,500.

    That means I would have saved 1100 Zen, which is 110 Preservation Wards! And going from Rank 8 to 9, I really need them!

    Obviously, I do not feel very inclined to ever purchase anything from them ever again while this situation is unresolved.

    ~.~
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    d4rthd00fusd4rthd00fus Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Wow 16 pages of anger. 16 pages of PAYING CUSTOMERS who paid more than a AAA game at retail for a new race and some extra goodies who thought they were getting a special deal, and now believe it to have been a raw deal. 16 pages of folks who will very definitely think twice the next time an offer like this is made.

    I do believe it is time for our friends at PWE to step to the plate and discuss this situation, stop the bleeding and attempt to make amends in some manner. Customers remember stuff like this, and coming on the heels of the massive exploitation of the game which gave many players a full boat free ride to the top of the charts and a mere slap on the wrist for doing it, they need to act now.

    If this had been planned all along, it's a truly sad state of affairs. Did no one on the marketing team expect this would be the reaction to this sleight of hand tactic? Please Cryptic, you work hard on this game and I know these decisions are out of your hands. You read these forums and see the vitriol this situation has caused. Talk to PWE and see what can be done about making it right.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    Actually retail stores are still required by law to have sold the items for rrp even if they have ways of limiting availability of that to get round it. Here they never offered it at the full price. If we bought a 25% discount, then we should have a 25% refund. That's what was offered, and that's what I should expect.

    there is no set suggested retail price even if they originally stated the base price of the pack was $100. they are entitled to change the base price if they want.

    also there has been no official announcement whether the sale has been extended or that the base price has been moved to $75.

    i would wait for something official before i started making assumptions and getting frustrated.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    there is no set suggested retail price even if they originally stated the base price of the pack was $100. they are entitled to change the base price if they want.

    also there has been no official announcement whether the sale has been extended or that the base price has been moved to $75.

    i would wait for something official before i started making assumptions and getting frustrated.

    They are but you can't tell people that they're saving $25 when they're not. What's to stop every company from making fake sales on every single item they sell and permanently reduce it instantly with the excuse that it's to provide better value?
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    refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    i would wait for something official before i started making assumptions and getting frustrated.

    Yes, but the thing is, Melody, they should have made an official announcement last week.

    -
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    They are but you can't tell people that they're saving $25 when they're not. What's to stop every company from making fake sales on every single item they sell and permanently reduce it instantly with the excuse that it's to provide better value?

    it seems to me that this thread exists because more people want to believe that PWE began with the intent to trick people into buying into their pre-sale by waving a fake price around... nevermind the fact that people complained loudly about the price to begin with and right now it seems that they have only extended the sale rather than dropped the base price of the pack from the original base price to the sale price.

    if the decision was made after the initial offering based on feedback to reduce the base cost of the item, there is nothing in the law that prevents them from doing so.

    but as of right now, we do not know if they are extending the sale or lowering the base price.

    as for the pack being offered on the zen shop... it's all speculative whether it was preplanned or an afterthought. but there is also nothing in the law that prevents them from doing this. but again, it's a matter of opinion whether they are doing what they should be doing vs what they choose to do.
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    melodywhrmelodywhr Member Posts: 4,220 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Yes, but the thing is, Melody, they should have made an official announcement last week.

    -

    we're talking about a company that runs multiple games, one that we're aware of that's dropping a new module and one CM is out of the office at a convention... we don't know the internal workings of PWE or what or how they run.

    some people think that fast food restaurants are irresponsible. but some of them do a lot of things for the community and make donations to charities that you'd never know about unless you looked into it. but even though they do things like that, there are still internal workings and decisions that are not public knowledge.

    if they had an announcement to make last week, then i'm sure they would have made it. if the extension and the zen shop decision was made at the last minute, how could it have been announced last week?
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    sonofraistlinsonofraistlin Member Posts: 178 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Just to put a little perspective (an australian perspective), it is significantly cheaper to buy it on the zen market (which I did), as the US$75 on paypal, translates to aussie $85...For some reason, the currency difference isn't as pronounced when purchasing zen :confused: anyhow, I thought it was a great idea to offer it on the zen market, it kind-a gives the existing players of the game an in-game advantage. Just a thought, please don't hurt me lol.
    “and someday, fat innkeepers will bow to me.”
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    it seems to me that this thread exists because more people want to believe that PWE began with the intent to trick people into buying into their pre-sale by waving a fake price around... nevermind the fact that people complained loudly about the price to begin with and right now it seems that they have only extended the sale rather than dropped the base price of the pack from the original base price to the sale price.

    if the decision was made after the initial offering based on feedback to reduce the base cost of the item, there is nothing in the law that prevents them from doing so.

    but as of right now, we do not know if they are extending the sale or lowering the base price.

    as for the pack being offered on the zen shop... it's all speculative whether it was preplanned or an afterthought. but there is also nothing in the law that prevents them from doing this. but again, it's a matter of opinion whether they are doing what they should be doing vs what they choose to do.

    If they extended the sale they wouldn't have removed the original price being crossed out and replacing it with the new one. How do we know that they didn't price the pack originally too high on purpose? Are we supposed to take their word for it? The possibility of them intentionally releasing it at an overpriced price on purpose and reducing it permanently making us think its because of our opinion when really they just wanted the extra early sales based on pretend offers is why they should not be able to do so and why I question the legality over it. I'm not saying they intentionally lied to us, but they did and people bought into on offer that didn't reflect the reality of it. Presuming it is permanently the new price, some form of compensation should be required since a lot of people bought it for the limited time extra value when really they were best off waiting and at the minimum get their bonus zen in addition to the pack. As for it being in the zen store it was stated to be exclusive which people assumed to be the case to buying it directly for money with no alternative. In court they could possibly argue that the vagueness doesn't necessarily exclude the zen store or it could be argued that it was too vague to get people to preorder based on that assumption. In my mind they were at least tight lipped about dragonborn availability on purpose to get extra sales.

    Releasing it in the zen store would have been great if the whole thing wasn't full of misinformation.
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    targlocktarglock Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 61 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    In every game i played so far, i took a couple of months to see how the company that developed the game acts in the face of exploits, customer service etc.
    I do it to understand if the company and the game worth to invest real money in to it (hard earned money!). Must of the companies are greedy, and the greediness is what eventually kills them, this game is really fun, but the way the company treat people in game is laughable!
    So in the meantime NO REAL MONEY FOR YOU, i know that there's still players that pay a lot of money, and you probably don't care about my money, but you're in the right direction to have 0 paying players, must people are not stupid! even the big money spenders will realize it soon. It's about time you wake up and start doing long time plans that will give me the Incentive to pay!
    and no, legendry mount and 0.000000001% chance to get a useless artifact are not Incentives :), start to look at the big picture!
    it will be sad to see this game go so soon, because it's a really nice game! and nice game needs a nice company to go with it :)
    Realm leader of Guild Medieval

    We are always recruiting mature, family-friendly, helpful and courteous people www.guildmedieval.com
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    zhaofuozhaofuo Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 129 Bounty Hunter
    edited August 2014
    This is the only gripe i have for this dragonborn pack being sold in Zen store, if i have know that they would do that, i could have bought it via zen instead of paying for it in advance.

    Think about it - for the Pre order, you bought it for 75$ dollars thats it.

    if i have bought it via zen, i could have paid the exact amount of Zen but i would still get some extra Zen since if you have bought zen in bigger denomination you would have gotten some extra zen for it which could translate to a much lower $ amount.
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    evileyecurseevileyecurse Member Posts: 38
    edited August 2014
    I look at the situation this way:

    A few weeks back, I was selling my Perfect Vorpal for 16,800,000 AD. At that time, only 3 were listed one was 18,500,000 and the other 20,000,000. Within a few hours mine got sold. Why was it sold? Because the buyer was thinking, if he is not going to buy at 16.8M and someone is going to buy that item at at that level, he “might” have to settle with the more expensive item which was 18.5m or worse the 20m. Similarly, this was also the thought process of the buyers of the discounted dragonborn pack (i.e. I'll have to buy it now before the price goes up)

    Yesterday I sold the same item for 10,000,000. If you were the buyer of the 16,800,000 perfect vorpal, would you blame me, the seller for having sold you at that price and you found out later I was selling the same item 3 weeks after at a much lower price? 16,800,000 AD is equivalent to 33,600 Zen, 10,000,000 AD is 20,000 Zen. The reason I sold my vorpal at a much lower price was because of the market. No one would be willing to buy it at 16.8 therefore it had to go down in price.

    I think what Cryptic/PWE realized is that their packs were not selling as projected, so it was a business decision to lower the final price of the pack to 75$ USD. Any business owner would understand that for you to sell your product well there should be value. The value of the items inside the pack cannot justify the 100$ price, therefore the most logical step is to lower it. More than anything, I believe it was the market who influenced this decision. In my opinion though, even at 75$ it is still overvalued but that is just me, so I wasn’t enticed to buy the discounted pack.

    I was actually pleasantly surprised, that they made the pack available purchasable through Zen, as this would enable F2P players to access it but it would really take a lot of grind and a lot of waiting with the backlog.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I look at the situation this way:

    A few weeks back, I was selling my Perfect Vorpal for 16,800,000 AD. At that time, only 3 were listed one was 18,500,000 and the other 20,000,000. Within a few hours mine got sold. Why was it sold? Because the buyer was thinking, if he is not going to buy at 16.8M and someone is going to buy that item at at that level, he “might” have to settle with the more expensive item which was 18.5m or worse the 20m. Similarly, this was also the thought process of the buyers of the discounted dragonborn pack (i.e. I'll have to buy it now before the price goes up)

    Yesterday I sold the same item for 10,000,000. If you were the buyer of the 16,800,000 perfect vorpal, would you blame me, the seller for having sold you at that price and you found out later I was selling the same item 3 weeks after at a much lower price? 16,800,000 AD is equivalent to 33,600 Zen, 10,000,000 AD is 20,000 Zen. The reason I sold my vorpal at a much lower price was because of the market. No one would be willing to buy it at 16.8 therefore it had to go down in price.

    I think what Cryptic/PWE realized is that their packs were not selling as projected, so it was a business decision to lower the final price of the pack to 75$ USD. Any business owner would understand that for you to sell your product well there should be value. The value of the items inside the pack cannot justify the 100$ price, therefore the most logical step is to lower it. More than anything, I believe it was the market who influenced this decision. In my opinion though, even at 75$ it is still overvalued but that is just me, so I wasn’t enticed to buy the discounted pack.

    I was actually pleasantly surprised, that they made the pack available purchasable through Zen, as this would enable F2P players to access it but it would really take a lot of grind and a lot of waiting with the backlog.

    There's kind of a difference between a free and virtual market and specifically stating that an item is discounted and will go up when the sale ends. The whole idea of a sale is to attract more buyers. When that sale isn't actually a sale, then you made money from lying. It's that simple.
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    evileyecurseevileyecurse Member Posts: 38
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    There's kind of a difference between a free and virtual market and specifically stating that an item is discounted and will go up when the sale ends. The whole idea of a sale is to attract more buyers. When that sale isn't actually a sale, then you made money from lying. It's that simple.

    Starts a healthy discussion:

    So let us say you are a decision maker in Cryptic/PWE. You were selling this virtual product and also made the same strategy in discounting the pack and only a few people were buying what would you do? Continue the same strategy or try to lower the price?

    I think there was no intent to lie, it is just that there were only a few buyers at 100$ so they were forced to lower it equal to the discounted price.

    Btw I am not trying to defend PWE/Cryptic here. I am just trying to argue through the perspective of a business owner.
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    ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Starts a healthy discussion:

    So let us say you are a decision maker in Cryptic/PWE. You were selling this virtual product and also made the same strategy in discounting the pack and only a few people were buying what would you do? Continue the same strategy or try to lower the price?

    I think there was no intent to lie, it is just that there were only a few buyers at 100$ so they were forced to lower it equal to the discounted price.

    Btw I am not trying to defend PWE/Cryptic here. I am just trying to argue through the perspective of a business owner.

    What makes you think you would get more buyers by continuing selling the item for the same price, just without the sale tag? What Cryptic was afraid of was that no one would buy it at $100.
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    Starts a healthy discussion:

    So let us say you are a decision maker in Cryptic/PWE. You were selling this virtual product and also made the same strategy in discounting the pack and only a few people were buying what would you do? Continue the same strategy or try to lower the price?

    I think there was no intent to lie, it is just that there were only a few buyers at 100$ so they were forced to lower it equal to the discounted price.

    Btw I am not trying to defend PWE/Cryptic here. I am just trying to argue through the perspective of a business owner.

    Then fine do it, have more attractive pricing, great. I still want my discount though. 25% refund as supposedly offered before. It's only fair.
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    refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    If you were the buyer of the 16,800,000 perfect vorpal, would you blame me, the seller for having sold you at that price and you found out later I was selling the same item 3 weeks after at a much lower price?

    What on Earth are you talking about? There is no connection between the two at all.

    ~.~
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    evileyecurseevileyecurse Member Posts: 38
    edited August 2014
    What on Earth are you talking about? There is no connection between the two at all.

    ~.~

    My apologies then, I think I am the only one with this kind of perspective. To each his own.
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    refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    melodywhr wrote: »
    but there is also nothing in the law that prevents them from doing this.

    There is, actually, Melody. There are Federal Laws, California State Laws, European Union Laws and English Law. They were linked in this thread by other members but moved to The Can, so I am not going to post them again.

    And nothing in any EULA or TOS can override the Law of any country where a digital transaction takes place, anymore than I can get you to agree to a contract to pay you £20,000 for one of your kidneys. It is simply not a binding contract in English Law as selling human organs is a criminal offence. I cannot even sell you one of my kidneys.

    EULA and TOS case law has been tested in Europe far more than it has in the States.

    I think a 25% refund is an excessive recompense to hope for; but if, as a gesture of good faith, they credited me with the Zen I lost by paying the equivalent of 8600 Zen for a 7500 Zen product, that would go a long way to restoring a small part of the trust they have destroyed. I would never have bought it at all if I had known it was going to be available on the Zen Market for less than the pre-release, so-called Sale price.

    ~.~
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    frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    I think a 25% refund is an excessive recompense to hope for; but if, as a gesture of good faith, they credited me with the Zen I lost by paying the equivalent of 8600 Zen for a 7500 Zen product, that would go a long way to restoring a small part of the trust they have destroyed. I would never have bought it at all if I had known it was going to be available on the Zen Market for less than the pre-release, so-called Sale price.
    ~.~

    I think it's pretty fair personally. The previous value was 25% off in usd, so it's only fair to have the 25% apply to the new value.
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    refracted0dawnrefracted0dawn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 894 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    frishter wrote: »
    I think it's pretty fair personally. The previous value was 25% off in usd, so it's only fair to have the 25% apply to the new value.

    Yes, you may have a valid point.

    .
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    ixalmarisixalmaris Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited August 2014
    It all depends on if the Regalia is part of the Zen package or not. If it is not then Cryptic can argue that it is a different product than the one sold with 25% off.

    That could hold up in court if it ever came to it, but in the eyes of the community it is still a lame excuse. I only hope people will remember this the next time Cryptic wants to sell something. But from experience I don't believe it.

    No one in this world, so far as I know—and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me—has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. -- H. L. Mencken
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