someone here is prety crazy eather that guy or you lol
Tr's who enter MC are actually doing 2/3 because it is possible to do a perma run (you can look for nightxwingz on youtube, he has videos of him killing 1st and 2nd boss) and I helped a tr entering just the other day so I believe is actually still possible to solo it. I think that you can't solo fulimnorax because of valindra's hand
i think thats good idea.
trs need to pay to pve and that should be a standard.
that price is reasonable to start with.
TR 15GS with stone lf mc2/3 plus 5 ranks 5s for each player
so in the beggining of the dungeon tr pays coz after all hes getting carryed .something like a
like a fairy no dmg but brings stuff.
off course for tougher dungeons more enchants
you sir are a genious
i would gladly pay that amount to join dungeon right away
and in a way thank the people that carry me.
infact i will start it right away good idea.
i think thats good idea.
trs need to pay to pve and that should be a standard.
that price is reasonable to start with.
TR 15GS with stone lf mc2/3 plus 5 ranks 5s for each player
so in the beggining of the dungeon tr pays coz after all hes getting carryed .something
like a fairy no dmg but brings stuff.
off course for tougher dungeons more enchants
Nonsense.
It's the majority of underpowered perma stealth TRs that brought about this mentality of TRs being so much worse than they should be. They need to gear up, but the way they are built don't favor putting out DPS without top end gear. They also try to play team content as if they are soloing, perma hiding.
If players being carried needs to pay to play, then can I ask for payment from CWs or GWFs above 15k GS that are outdps'ed by my TR? It happens more often than you think in pugs.
If you claim those 15k CWs/GWFs are just bad players or not spec'ed for top end PVE dps. It's the same thing, the majority of TRs are not conditioned for PVE teaming. The TR community as a whole is partially responsible.
If you have to pay to play, you might as well don't play.
It's the majority of underpowered perma stealth TRs that brought about this mentality of TRs being so much worse than they should be. They need to gear up, but the way they are built don't favor putting out DPS without top end gear. They also try to play team content as if they are soloing, perma hiding.
If players being carried needs to pay to play, then can I ask for payment from CWs or GWFs above 15k GS that are outdps'ed by my TR? It happens more often than you think in pugs.
If you claim those 15k CWs/GWFs are just bad players or not spec'ed for top end PVE dps. It's the same thing, the majority of TRs are not conditioned for PVE teaming. The TR community as a whole is partially responsible.
If you have to pay to play, you might as well don't play.
hmm u both got a point but as u said
most people think all trs are permas and have no dmg and thats not going to change anywere soon.
so trs need a bit off push to sell in lfg channel
thats when 5 ranks 5s bit comes in handy.
as for cws they have huge cc so they carrying us all
we should make a cw bank with presents for them.
to be honest, I only saw 2 classes being kicked for being ... what it is.
gwf (beta/module1) rangers module 2.
what happens, and I already kicked some 500 rogues because that, is when he ignores the party and goes running ahead in stealth to the boss.
hmm running in stealth to the boss
thats what trs do solo dps the boss in stealth
lol
and you kicked 500 trs at the boss fight?
how many other people did u kick
We already have players eager to ignore, kick and report others.
Now we have idiots who think they should be paid in R5 enchants based on performance, and it should be a norm, in a PUG situation no less..
The only players happy about this are players eager to exploit others for the enchantments to further their own artifact refinement.
Just wake up, there is no guarantee the party will not disband midway or right after entering the dungeon, or a guarantee that you will not be shafted on loot rolls, or even if the run will be successful.
I can understand if you want players to help you queue for a solo run. But paying to be carried by random pugs in the LFG channel? That's just dumb.
Wow, I feel bad for the guy. As a GF I know how it feels to have class stigma gate your progress. I would love to agree and say that Legit is a solution, but truth be told, class preferences carry over there as well. My DC and GWF get MC & VT runs with ease via Legit. My GF is not so lucky. The sad part is 12 - 14k rainbow parties can do VT & MC with patience and communication/teamwork, but alas.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
MC 2/3 is definitely soloable, it's just not easy. TOS, now that's impossible. VT 1/2 is pretty hard too. CN draco isn't so much hard as takes friggin forever
It's the majority of underpowered perma stealth TRs that brought about this mentality of TRs being so much worse than they should be. They need to gear up, but the way they are built don't favor putting out DPS without top end gear. They also try to play team content as if they are soloing, perma hiding.
If players being carried needs to pay to play, then can I ask for payment from CWs or GWFs above 15k GS that are outdps'ed by my TR? It happens more often than you think in pugs.
If you claim those 15k CWs/GWFs are just bad players or not spec'ed for top end PVE dps. It's the same thing, the majority of TRs are not conditioned for PVE teaming. The TR community as a whole is partially responsible.
If you have to pay to play, you might as well don't play.
You are mistaken on several accounts. First of all in that stealth TR's are underpowered, they are not. Flurry does as much as ANY TR encounter, with only blitz, path of the blade and lashing blade coming close. I saw this very clearly when I qued into MC a while back and there was another rogue. We both started clearing the dungeon. He was using something like blitz, impact shot(before the nerf), and lashing blade, with the occasional flurry. I was using ITC, shadow strike, and smoke bomb(my standard for mob clearing, note i'm getting 0 damage from my encounters, same as a permastealth) with a 3 flurry rotation. We both threw out whirlwinds for dailies. We were very close in terms of gear and ended up only a hair's breath apart in the paingiver chart which easily could have been because he was using a Pvorp and i had a greater lightning enchant.
Second, even if it's true that you are out dps'ing 15k CWs or GWFs(Which i find pretty hard to believe, where did you find these guys? were they afk half the time?) It doesn't really matter, because your probably not out-dpsing them by much. Meanwhile they are out debuffing you, out tanking you(the cw as well if he's got some lifesteal), and out CC'ing you. Meaning your pretty much just getting out performed PERIOD. True, Tr's have some debuffs, but lets be honest, they have neither the range or duration to match a cw, not even close. Even if your running plague fire or terror, as a rogue your going to have a **** hard time keeping that debuff active on more than 5 targets for a very short period of time, unlike a GWF who can apply them to a broad area with that big ole sword. I rest my case for this in that HR's are not especially wanted in PVE content despite the fact that they can do comparable damge to cws or gwfs, without the tankyness or CC.
Lets face it, rogues have been UTTERLY screwed in mob clearing, which is pretty much the majority of a dungeon, and it's not like their single target abilities are leagues above a GWF or a CW. Stealth is the single feature of rogues that allow them to do some pretty amazing things in a dungeon which just can't be done by any other class, so why would you not spec for it when the other classes do EVERYTHING else in PVE much better than you do?
Let me give you an example. I used to run SPC alot, one of my favorites. Using a stealth based TR I was able to run literally dozens of mobs into lava, single handedly clearing 1/3rd of the dungeon in around 3 minutes. I also frequently took undergeared guildmates with me on SPC runs and when we failed the end fight a couple of times I would solo it. That's something only a TR can do. TR is easily the least valuable class for dungeon clearing right now, DPS being only one factor in that. It's very sad, but true, and we can only hope this changes.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
You are mistaken on several accounts. First of all in that stealth TR's are underpowered, they are not. Flurry does as much as ANY TR encounter, with only blitz, path of the blade and lashing blade coming close. I saw this very clearly when I qued into MC a while back and there was another rogue. We both started clearing the dungeon. He was using something like blitz, impact shot(before the nerf), and lashing blade, with the occasional flurry. I was using ITC, shadow strike, and smoke bomb(my standard for mob clearing, note i'm getting 0 damage from my encounters, same as a permastealth) with a 3 flurry rotation. We both threw out whirlwinds for dailies. We were very close in terms of gear and ended up only a hair's breath apart in the paingiver chart which easily could have been because he was using a Pvorp and i had a greater lightning enchant.
...
1. Many PvP TRs are not MI Executioner, but scoundrels (and some are even WK ). So already It's not the same DF ->
Brutal backstab, Critical overrun, Deadly momentum.
2. PvP and PvP Perma, stack HP and recovery while PvE power..
And thats about 25% damage difference (over base).
3. What you described in the PvE rogue is not a good rotation "occasional flurry". well, not a rotation at all, DF does more damage than any encounter, and is more than 50% (attack + bleed) of a good TRs total DPS in PvE.
Hence why PvE TRs will do everything not to break the DF and keep to the rotation.
4. From personal experience the rogues that come close or outdps me (in the same GS area), all have close rotation (dazing, blitz, lb with alternations to smoke/wr when needed) and close build (MI Executioner low stealth - no points in Improved cunning sneak for example) . PvP perma / or stealth rotation I outpds from 2:1 to 10:1 ! ( while they do what they do in PvP and i cant..)
PvP MI Exec TRs that adapt and change to PvE (use non stealth rotation) can do fine.. they have a bit disadvantage on damage but can come very close.
I think you stumbled on a bad TR and made a conclusion based on that.
To those that want enchants to enter dungeons and a bank for CW, wont dignify with response.
Just wonder what to do with the GWFs/CW that are gearing and i easily outdps.
The kicking, running to boss: Dont know today, but from beta to about M1-M2 it was expected from TRs to run wherever they need to run and the rest of the party will 'magically' join them (as it considered as an exploit by many i wont elaborate, but it was standard)
Anyway, by reading this thread I wonder how people still play the game at all, in the general populace with attitudes that encourage paying to enter a dungeon and kick trigger happy people..
I guess I'm lucky to never need to queue/lfg channel (as in use it to find party) for a dungeon.
Your making blanket statements about pvp/pve, not everyone follows cookiecutter FoTM builds. Perma stealth can be acheived by putting 10 points in sab, so you can spec scoundrel, excutioner or really whatever you want. You've just admitted that flurry is the 1# source of TR damage. Slotting damage dealing encounters or slotting stealth encounters isn't going to make much of a difference in damage potential considering stealth adds a hefty bonus to damage. A full permastealth rotation isn't required for clearing mobs with a group, so a stealth based dps rogue can simply flurry as often as possible while using his encounters to build action points and give him the stealth damage bonus to his flurries. Assuming equal skill, gear, wep enchants, and feat spec your not going to outdps such a rogue with the loadout you described by much, certainly not 2-1. and 10-1? Obviously if your out dpsing another rogue 10-1 they have half your gear score and probably don't know the first thing about how to pve at all.
If your out dpsing gwfs and cws then clearly they don't know how to pve very well either, becuase the damage potential of those classes with regards to aoe is much higher than anything you have to offer. What do you have that comes close to a CW popping a PVORP eye of the storm oppresive force or arcane sing on 30 mobs. Nothing, and these abilities CC as well.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Your making blanket statements about pvp/pve, not everyone follows cookiecutter FoTM builds. Perma stealth can be acheived by putting 10 points in sab, so you can spec scoundrel, excutioner or really whatever you want. You've just admitted that flurry is the 1# source of TR damage. Slotting damage dealing encounters or slotting stealth encounters isn't going to make much of a difference in damage potential considering stealth adds a hefty bonus to damage. A full permastealth rotation isn't required for clearing mobs with a group, so a stealth based dps rogue can simply flurry as often as possible while using his encounters to build action points and give him the stealth damage bonus to his flurries. Assuming equal skill, gear, wep enchants, and feat spec your not going to outdps such a rogue with the loadout you described by much, certainly not 2-1. and 10-1? Obviously if your out dpsing another rogue 10-1 they have half your gear score and probably don't know the first thing about how to pve at all.
If your out dpsing gwfs and cws then clearly they don't know how to pve very well either, becuase the damage potential of those classes with regards to aoe is much higher than anything you have to offer. What do you have that comes close to a CW popping a PVORP eye of the storm oppresive force or arcane sing on 30 mobs. Nothing, and these abilities CC as well.
Please Re-read what i wrote.
Using sneaky stabber is PvE perma and not PvP and i was specifically not referring to those as there is no much deference as long as they change rotation. PvP perma use mainly high INT high recovery builds...
Using full stealth will only grant you Brutal Backstab and more AP gain if feated, which is nice but much less when compared to blitz+dazing+lashing which are the other almost half of the damage. And that also not much because combat TRs are in stealth half the time.
And notice that all of them more or less have quick animation so it doesn't prevent from doing the same total of DFs, and powers like Blitz use to reposition, and dazing to get CA without the need to side-step all the time (invis rotation have CA all the time).
And that on Elites and bosses, on large quantities of easy to kill minions or good party you will get much more form Burst damage and less from DF, as you wont have time to stack bleed, in a good party there is rarely time for second/third rotation because everything already dead and we run to the next pull..
In those DF will go as low as 20%-30% of overall damage and alternating with sly yield more overall DPS.
As opposed to Kessels or low GS parties in example where stuff die a bit slower and DF is more prominent.
Here you already have almost 2:1 damage difference and that is not taking into account Disciple of strength and Scoundrel training points in Str/Cha, and the difference in power that come from difference in builds around (4k-5k power = 25% - 30% base damage).
With 7k power (8k with swash bonus and without whirlwind) in a standard run (some buffs) Blitz will do 11k+14k crit (and it crits alot) per hit (about 40k-50k total), LB 40k-60k and dazing 20k-40k up to 3 targets (rare to hit more than 1,2 unless sing)
With a more debuffs (as in add debuff MoF CW to the party) this numbers go higher up to 120k lashing.
Stealth rotation wont have all this, and will remain only with Brutal Backstab.
For TRs i was referring to the same GS or above mine.
For GWF/CW i specifically wrote "gearing" and was referring to carrying them while they gear as in "why they dont pay enchants then....." but that was partly sarcasm and of course if i'll do CN with an average GWF/CN same gear same enchants i will be left behind (in damage)..
I do not know your build, nor the TRs that ran with you, i'm giving example from my experience and from the feats and ability numbers..
I'm always willing to learn and to improve, I repsec-ed several times just to see the difference of brutal back stab with long improved cunning sneak and many times to try different builds (saboteur, scoundrel, perma PvE exec).
Am I really mistaken? I said the majority of underpowered perma stealth TRs, not a perma stealth TR.
I've described a situation, and that current scenario is so obvious that many recognises it as being true. I did not attack the perma stealth TR.
Your basis is on the assumption I do not understand how the TR works.
I shall give a brief extract on relevant parts about a post I made about improving the TR, and this roughly what I mentioned: "There's an acceleration curve to a TRs DPS, mainly because of DF. In a rainbow party with 1 CW or GWF or even a combi of CW/GWF, a TR can come close. But stack 2 CWs, it falls behind. The TRs DPS decreases exponentially with CW/GWF stacking, not because it cannot DPS, but it has little chance to do so because of its acceleration where CW/GWF are fully capable of frequent high AOE burst damage."
Is it really impossible to outdps a CW or GWF?
GWF has seen so many players flocked to it that it is easier to outdps than a CW because of the player spectrum.
Now for my experiences with my CW.
During the Anniversary event, my CW was my only alt that can guarantee the gold bonus regardless of party. I've been abandoned by 16k+ CWs because there was a lvl 6 or other non 60 in the party. And I have ran being the only 60 with the lvl 6 and other 3 below lvl 30. Result was 5 mil+ damage with gold bonus, in a matter of minutes.
My last DD was a VT run on legit channel. Only other comparable CW was 17.8k GS, 9k power with perfect vorpal. We did not finish because the other 3 were from one guild and they recruited us, but they were actually 1st timers with 11-13k GS. The 17.8k CW clocked 12mil+, myself 11mil+. We started pulling apart gradually from fighting Val several times.
Now my CW alt is 15.0k GS, 4k+ power, lesser vorpal.
What I'm saying is, nothing is a given. Even as powerful as CW is, the spectrum for performance is so wide simply based on your choices and playstyle.
I try not to make assumptions but speak from experience. I certainly did not make any blanket assumptions.
The kicking, running to boss: Dont know today, but from beta to about M1-M2 it was expected from TRs to run wherever they need to run and the rest of the party will 'magically' join them (as it considered as an exploit by many i wont elaborate, but it was standard)
nothing like this. at the beginning of Module 2 was quite common for rogue entering a "room X", pull the enemies to the party, and go back to the "room X" ,in stealth, to loot items from refinement.
done this, he continued to travel the boss or he could not kill, and then leave. (almost always no, and the adds were to the the party ... do not know if it still works).
if this is a "rogue thing" I do not care. especially when dealing with pugs low gear. if someone died, it was your fault, and you're out. one thing is you will not be strong or be inexperienced. another thing is you in the field of your class, using his powers with little regard to the consequences (using your party like a cannon fodder).
First, i would like to say i appreciate the feedback. The main point i was trying to make was that high stealth builds can be effective in pve. Using a perma rotation for mob clearing is inefficient and with the high focus on permastealth these days, there are probably alot of rogues mistakenly trying to do exactly that. As I said before my standard for mob clearing is ITC, shadow strike, and smoke bomb. It is probably not the max potential damage i could be doing, but i like it for the following reasons. 1 - ITC, SS, and SB all share similar cooldowns, allowing me to chain cast all three and waste no more than 1 second doing anything other than flurring. 2- consistent rapid AP gain. 3 SB is a great form of CC which helps out your party immensely, especially if timed directly after a arcane sing for instance. 4-two of my flurries always connect during stealth, with a flurry out of stealth occuring during smoke bomb. 5- I can whirlwind with stealth bonuses to damage virtually as soon as my daily pops. 6- with this load out you are virtually untouchable by even 40+ mobs if you can keep them in the radius of your smoke bomb and they are not CC immune, even if your entire party wipes you can have a epic hero of the day moment where you hold off the swarm untill your party revives(This used to happen to me with extreme frequency in the ashen hallway portion of CN)
I have been playing TR since open beta and have experimented with virtually every paragon path/encounter loadout and the smoke bomb combo as I call it is by far my favorite, for mob clearing.
I would also like to speak to the str/int issue. I started out as a STR/DEX rogue, and restated for more int. I moved 4 points out of strength into int. I did extensive testing on the damage before and after this respec. What i found was that my cooldowns were reduced significantly, but i lost 1.8% damage. This confused the hell out of me until i realized that strength might not = +% increase to TOTAL damage. Indeed, when i did the math i found that strength increases BASE damage, namely your daggers, which does not scale well with gear and especially power. On the other hand a rogue with 22 int and 1600 recovery, and a rogue with 18 int and 2600 recovery have almost exactly the same cooldowns. These findings are based on my personal experiences/testing and i have no idea if it's 100% correct. If someone can tell me that i'm wrong please do so, because I would like to know. But if my experiences are correct it would mean that a INT rogue is better than a STR rogue pretty much flat out because every rogue wants shorter cooldowns to some degree and even if your speccing for damage you can stack more power and less recovery as a INT rogue.
The thing is, you brought up a specific perma stealth build against a general observation. This simply becomes bait for something you want to make it about.
What percentage of the community will your TR build, or your PVORPAL CWs constitute, as opposed to those you consider "don't know the first thing about pve at all"?
Should someone enter into this discussion in the first place? No need, it is not relevant to why someone should have to pay another to be accepted into a dungeon party.
im 15gs perma tr pbilethorn.
and i cant find a party if my life depended on it.
i also wanted to get mc off hand but quit after 3 days not getting a single party.
people dont care abouth gs and they dont care which build all they know is trs deal low dmg with no to little cc
i gave my brother 11,7gs cw to play and in 2 days practice hes doing cn easy.
easy to play crazy dmg easy to group why would anyone pick tr if he can take cw
i cant even bring myself to do daily ice dale with tr so i blame no one for not taking me.
nevermind
trs who like pve go ahead its not for me
oh by the way i out dps pve swash trs sometimes and even some 15gs cw that use out dated shield or what not but they are still way more valuable then me
but thaum high vizier,stox spec lol
Even as a perma build, sometimes soloing content you can choose not to go perma.
Is your problem enemies eating away your stealth too fast? Or you can't kill them fast enough?
I'm sure you have Tenacious Concealment slotted, that thing is golden for soloing IWD. You can use stealth selectively with more focus on AOEs. Blitz is also golden in IWD for taking out trash for it's low cooldown, you can opt to use POB, blitz, then go into stealth to attack the enemy with more HP.
The combo most effective for myself is to Blitz, stealth DF the more HP enemy, LB in stealth for kill, SS to refill stealth, Blitz, enter stealth again or Sly Flourish the weak adds to death.
With the right approach, it should not be hard to clear dailies and minor HEs solo. I've already completed the IWD campaign using the above approach. I use the same setup for Kessell's Retreat and rarely have any problems as well.
Even as a perma build, sometimes soloing content you can choose not to go perma.
Is your problem enemies eating away your stealth too fast? Or you can't kill them fast enough?
I'm sure you have Tenacious Concealment slotted, that thing is golden for soloing IWD. You can use stealth selectively with more focus on AOEs. Blitz is also golden in IWD for taking out trash for it's low cooldown, you can opt to use POB, blitz, then go into stealth to attack the enemy with more HP.
The combo most effective for myself is to Blitz, stealth DF the more HP enemy, LB in stealth for kill, SS to refill stealth, Blitz, enter stealth again or Sly Flourish the weak adds to death.
With the right approach, it should not be hard to clear dailies and minor HEs solo. I've already completed the IWD campaign using the above approach. I use the same setup for Kessell's Retreat and rarely have any problems as well.
dont get me wrong i can solo anything that can be soloed but its just to boring lol
10k lb 6k blitz crit i 6k dazing its no fun
I still enjoy playing my TR the most out of all the classes. My takeaway in IWD is to compete with CWs and GWFs to see who clears the fastest when we happen to run against the same mob. It's pretty fun that way to make your own challenges.
The thing is, you brought up a specific perma stealth build against a general observation. This simply becomes bait for something you want to make it about.
What percentage of the community will your TR build, or your PVORPAL CWs constitute, as opposed to those you consider "don't know the first thing about pve at all"?
Some of the earlier comments on this thread gave me the following impressions. Stealth builds are highly ineffective in pve, and rogues build for PVP will suck at PVE content and this is one of the reasons no one wants to take a TR on a dungeon run.
If my impressions are completely off base i apologize. Min/max'ing for pve/pvp will no doubt make you slightly better at one or the other. But I see no reason you can't build for both, keep perma-stealth as an option and switch out gear/powers according to if your soloing content, clearing a dungeon with a group, or pvp'ing. This is what I have always done.
My example of a Pvorp crit CW daily was an extreme example of how a CW's POTENTIAL damage completely outclasses anything a TR has to offer. Not every cw is that well geared or has the skill to pull off consistent crit dailies. There is a huge spread of how well geared and how skilled the players are in every class. Gearing up and getting better is part of the fun of playing the game. Except it's not much fun for a TR. Because no one wants to take you on a dungeon run. Even if you gear to the max and develop your pve skills as much as possible a mediocre cw or gwf can easily outperform you. The notion of a TR paying to get into a dungeon run is a symptom of this. In short Cw's are like pizza in a dungeon, even when they are bad they are still good(unless they just plain suck). TR's are like milk that might have exceeded it's expiration date, they might be ok, but do you really want to risk it? This is entirely because of class mechanics and not anything TR's are doing themselves.
just did a ToS run with some BiS pve tr w/ 16Kgs he scored 5m next to my cw
he pretty much die all the time but we love him so much cause he soooo aggressive and fun to play with!! (He uses auto-tune in VC ffs!!)
Its ridiculous when he tries to drop smoke and the casting animation just kills him (I hope they'll change it).
StrawberryCheesecake TR BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] CheeseCake House
Comments
someone here is prety crazy eather that guy or you lol
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
CheeseCake House
Tr's who enter MC are actually doing 2/3 because it is possible to do a perma run (you can look for nightxwingz on youtube, he has videos of him killing 1st and 2nd boss) and I helped a tr entering just the other day so I believe is actually still possible to solo it. I think that you can't solo fulimnorax because of valindra's hand
trs need to pay to pve and that should be a standard.
that price is reasonable to start with.
TR 15GS with stone lf mc2/3 plus 5 ranks 5s for each player
so in the beggining of the dungeon tr pays coz after all hes getting carryed .something
like a fairy no dmg but brings stuff.
off course for tougher dungeons more enchants
you sir are a genious
i would gladly pay that amount to join dungeon right away
and in a way thank the people that carry me.
infact i will start it right away good idea.
It's the majority of underpowered perma stealth TRs that brought about this mentality of TRs being so much worse than they should be. They need to gear up, but the way they are built don't favor putting out DPS without top end gear. They also try to play team content as if they are soloing, perma hiding.
If players being carried needs to pay to play, then can I ask for payment from CWs or GWFs above 15k GS that are outdps'ed by my TR? It happens more often than you think in pugs.
If you claim those 15k CWs/GWFs are just bad players or not spec'ed for top end PVE dps. It's the same thing, the majority of TRs are not conditioned for PVE teaming. The TR community as a whole is partially responsible.
If you have to pay to play, you might as well don't play.
hmm u both got a point but as u said
most people think all trs are permas and have no dmg and thats not going to change anywere soon.
so trs need a bit off push to sell in lfg channel
thats when 5 ranks 5s bit comes in handy.
as for cws they have huge cc so they carrying us all
we should make a cw bank with presents for them.
gwf (beta/module1) rangers module 2.
what happens, and I already kicked some 500 rogues because that, is when he ignores the party and goes running ahead in stealth to the boss.
hmm running in stealth to the boss
thats what trs do solo dps the boss in stealth
lol
and you kicked 500 trs at the boss fight?
how many other people did u kick
consider yourself reported
name one boss were tr isn't supose to run straight to the boss in stealth first
reported for kicking also
I think he means running ahead of the party , not at the boss encounter
yes... ignore the party and run alone for the dungeon like a ******.. but he can "report". i will still kicking.
We already have players eager to ignore, kick and report others.
Now we have idiots who think they should be paid in R5 enchants based on performance, and it should be a norm, in a PUG situation no less..
The only players happy about this are players eager to exploit others for the enchantments to further their own artifact refinement.
Just wake up, there is no guarantee the party will not disband midway or right after entering the dungeon, or a guarantee that you will not be shafted on loot rolls, or even if the run will be successful.
I can understand if you want players to help you queue for a solo run. But paying to be carried by random pugs in the LFG channel? That's just dumb.
You are mistaken on several accounts. First of all in that stealth TR's are underpowered, they are not. Flurry does as much as ANY TR encounter, with only blitz, path of the blade and lashing blade coming close. I saw this very clearly when I qued into MC a while back and there was another rogue. We both started clearing the dungeon. He was using something like blitz, impact shot(before the nerf), and lashing blade, with the occasional flurry. I was using ITC, shadow strike, and smoke bomb(my standard for mob clearing, note i'm getting 0 damage from my encounters, same as a permastealth) with a 3 flurry rotation. We both threw out whirlwinds for dailies. We were very close in terms of gear and ended up only a hair's breath apart in the paingiver chart which easily could have been because he was using a Pvorp and i had a greater lightning enchant.
Second, even if it's true that you are out dps'ing 15k CWs or GWFs(Which i find pretty hard to believe, where did you find these guys? were they afk half the time?) It doesn't really matter, because your probably not out-dpsing them by much. Meanwhile they are out debuffing you, out tanking you(the cw as well if he's got some lifesteal), and out CC'ing you. Meaning your pretty much just getting out performed PERIOD. True, Tr's have some debuffs, but lets be honest, they have neither the range or duration to match a cw, not even close. Even if your running plague fire or terror, as a rogue your going to have a **** hard time keeping that debuff active on more than 5 targets for a very short period of time, unlike a GWF who can apply them to a broad area with that big ole sword. I rest my case for this in that HR's are not especially wanted in PVE content despite the fact that they can do comparable damge to cws or gwfs, without the tankyness or CC.
Lets face it, rogues have been UTTERLY screwed in mob clearing, which is pretty much the majority of a dungeon, and it's not like their single target abilities are leagues above a GWF or a CW. Stealth is the single feature of rogues that allow them to do some pretty amazing things in a dungeon which just can't be done by any other class, so why would you not spec for it when the other classes do EVERYTHING else in PVE much better than you do?
Let me give you an example. I used to run SPC alot, one of my favorites. Using a stealth based TR I was able to run literally dozens of mobs into lava, single handedly clearing 1/3rd of the dungeon in around 3 minutes. I also frequently took undergeared guildmates with me on SPC runs and when we failed the end fight a couple of times I would solo it. That's something only a TR can do. TR is easily the least valuable class for dungeon clearing right now, DPS being only one factor in that. It's very sad, but true, and we can only hope this changes.
1. Many PvP TRs are not MI Executioner, but scoundrels (and some are even WK
Brutal backstab, Critical overrun, Deadly momentum.
2. PvP and PvP Perma, stack HP and recovery while PvE power..
And thats about 25% damage difference (over base).
3. What you described in the PvE rogue is not a good rotation "occasional flurry". well, not a rotation at all, DF does more damage than any encounter, and is more than 50% (attack + bleed) of a good TRs total DPS in PvE.
Hence why PvE TRs will do everything not to break the DF and keep to the rotation.
4. From personal experience the rogues that come close or outdps me (in the same GS area), all have close rotation (dazing, blitz, lb with alternations to smoke/wr when needed) and close build (MI Executioner low stealth - no points in Improved cunning sneak for example) . PvP perma / or stealth rotation I outpds from 2:1 to 10:1 ! ( while they do what they do in PvP and i cant..)
PvP MI Exec TRs that adapt and change to PvE (use non stealth rotation) can do fine.. they have a bit disadvantage on damage but can come very close.
I think you stumbled on a bad TR and made a conclusion based on that.
To those that want enchants to enter dungeons and a bank for CW, wont dignify with response.
Just wonder what to do with the GWFs/CW that are gearing and i easily outdps.
The kicking, running to boss: Dont know today, but from beta to about M1-M2 it was expected from TRs to run wherever they need to run and the rest of the party will 'magically' join them (as it considered as an exploit by many i wont elaborate, but it was standard)
Anyway, by reading this thread I wonder how people still play the game at all, in the general populace with attitudes that encourage paying to enter a dungeon and kick trigger happy people..
I guess I'm lucky to never need to queue/lfg channel (as in use it to find party) for a dungeon.
If your out dpsing gwfs and cws then clearly they don't know how to pve very well either, becuase the damage potential of those classes with regards to aoe is much higher than anything you have to offer. What do you have that comes close to a CW popping a PVORP eye of the storm oppresive force or arcane sing on 30 mobs. Nothing, and these abilities CC as well.
Please Re-read what i wrote.
Using sneaky stabber is PvE perma and not PvP and i was specifically not referring to those as there is no much deference as long as they change rotation. PvP perma use mainly high INT high recovery builds...
Using full stealth will only grant you Brutal Backstab and more AP gain if feated, which is nice but much less when compared to blitz+dazing+lashing which are the other almost half of the damage. And that also not much because combat TRs are in stealth half the time.
And notice that all of them more or less have quick animation so it doesn't prevent from doing the same total of DFs, and powers like Blitz use to reposition, and dazing to get CA without the need to side-step all the time (invis rotation have CA all the time).
And that on Elites and bosses, on large quantities of easy to kill minions or good party you will get much more form Burst damage and less from DF, as you wont have time to stack bleed, in a good party there is rarely time for second/third rotation because everything already dead and we run to the next pull..
In those DF will go as low as 20%-30% of overall damage and alternating with sly yield more overall DPS.
As opposed to Kessels or low GS parties in example where stuff die a bit slower and DF is more prominent.
Here you already have almost 2:1 damage difference and that is not taking into account Disciple of strength and Scoundrel training points in Str/Cha, and the difference in power that come from difference in builds around (4k-5k power = 25% - 30% base damage).
With 7k power (8k with swash bonus and without whirlwind) in a standard run (some buffs) Blitz will do 11k+14k crit (and it crits alot) per hit (about 40k-50k total), LB 40k-60k and dazing 20k-40k up to 3 targets (rare to hit more than 1,2 unless sing)
With a more debuffs (as in add debuff MoF CW to the party) this numbers go higher up to 120k lashing.
Stealth rotation wont have all this, and will remain only with Brutal Backstab.
For TRs i was referring to the same GS or above mine.
For GWF/CW i specifically wrote "gearing" and was referring to carrying them while they gear as in "why they dont pay enchants then....." but that was partly sarcasm and of course if i'll do CN with an average GWF/CN same gear same enchants i will be left behind (in damage)..
I do not know your build, nor the TRs that ran with you, i'm giving example from my experience and from the feats and ability numbers..
I'm always willing to learn and to improve, I repsec-ed several times just to see the difference of brutal back stab with long improved cunning sneak and many times to try different builds (saboteur, scoundrel, perma PvE exec).
I've described a situation, and that current scenario is so obvious that many recognises it as being true. I did not attack the perma stealth TR.
Your basis is on the assumption I do not understand how the TR works.
I shall give a brief extract on relevant parts about a post I made about improving the TR, and this roughly what I mentioned: "There's an acceleration curve to a TRs DPS, mainly because of DF. In a rainbow party with 1 CW or GWF or even a combi of CW/GWF, a TR can come close. But stack 2 CWs, it falls behind. The TRs DPS decreases exponentially with CW/GWF stacking, not because it cannot DPS, but it has little chance to do so because of its acceleration where CW/GWF are fully capable of frequent high AOE burst damage."
Is it really impossible to outdps a CW or GWF?
GWF has seen so many players flocked to it that it is easier to outdps than a CW because of the player spectrum.
Now for my experiences with my CW.
During the Anniversary event, my CW was my only alt that can guarantee the gold bonus regardless of party. I've been abandoned by 16k+ CWs because there was a lvl 6 or other non 60 in the party. And I have ran being the only 60 with the lvl 6 and other 3 below lvl 30. Result was 5 mil+ damage with gold bonus, in a matter of minutes.
My last DD was a VT run on legit channel. Only other comparable CW was 17.8k GS, 9k power with perfect vorpal. We did not finish because the other 3 were from one guild and they recruited us, but they were actually 1st timers with 11-13k GS. The 17.8k CW clocked 12mil+, myself 11mil+. We started pulling apart gradually from fighting Val several times.
Now my CW alt is 15.0k GS, 4k+ power, lesser vorpal.
What I'm saying is, nothing is a given. Even as powerful as CW is, the spectrum for performance is so wide simply based on your choices and playstyle.
I try not to make assumptions but speak from experience. I certainly did not make any blanket assumptions.
nothing like this. at the beginning of Module 2 was quite common for rogue entering a "room X", pull the enemies to the party, and go back to the "room X" ,in stealth, to loot items from refinement.
done this, he continued to travel the boss or he could not kill, and then leave. (almost always no, and the adds were to the the party ... do not know if it still works).
if this is a "rogue thing" I do not care. especially when dealing with pugs low gear. if someone died, it was your fault, and you're out. one thing is you will not be strong or be inexperienced. another thing is you in the field of your class, using his powers with little regard to the consequences (using your party like a cannon fodder).
I have been playing TR since open beta and have experimented with virtually every paragon path/encounter loadout and the smoke bomb combo as I call it is by far my favorite, for mob clearing.
I would also like to speak to the str/int issue. I started out as a STR/DEX rogue, and restated for more int. I moved 4 points out of strength into int. I did extensive testing on the damage before and after this respec. What i found was that my cooldowns were reduced significantly, but i lost 1.8% damage. This confused the hell out of me until i realized that strength might not = +% increase to TOTAL damage. Indeed, when i did the math i found that strength increases BASE damage, namely your daggers, which does not scale well with gear and especially power. On the other hand a rogue with 22 int and 1600 recovery, and a rogue with 18 int and 2600 recovery have almost exactly the same cooldowns. These findings are based on my personal experiences/testing and i have no idea if it's 100% correct. If someone can tell me that i'm wrong please do so, because I would like to know. But if my experiences are correct it would mean that a INT rogue is better than a STR rogue pretty much flat out because every rogue wants shorter cooldowns to some degree and even if your speccing for damage you can stack more power and less recovery as a INT rogue.
What percentage of the community will your TR build, or your PVORPAL CWs constitute, as opposed to those you consider "don't know the first thing about pve at all"?
Should someone enter into this discussion in the first place? No need, it is not relevant to why someone should have to pay another to be accepted into a dungeon party.
and i cant find a party if my life depended on it.
i also wanted to get mc off hand but quit after 3 days not getting a single party.
people dont care abouth gs and they dont care which build all they know is trs deal low dmg with no to little cc
i gave my brother 11,7gs cw to play and in 2 days practice hes doing cn easy.
easy to play crazy dmg easy to group why would anyone pick tr if he can take cw
i cant even bring myself to do daily ice dale with tr so i blame no one for not taking me.
nevermind
trs who like pve go ahead its not for me
oh by the way i out dps pve swash trs sometimes and even some 15gs cw that use out dated shield or what not but they are still way more valuable then me
but thaum high vizier,stox spec lol
Is your problem enemies eating away your stealth too fast? Or you can't kill them fast enough?
I'm sure you have Tenacious Concealment slotted, that thing is golden for soloing IWD. You can use stealth selectively with more focus on AOEs. Blitz is also golden in IWD for taking out trash for it's low cooldown, you can opt to use POB, blitz, then go into stealth to attack the enemy with more HP.
The combo most effective for myself is to Blitz, stealth DF the more HP enemy, LB in stealth for kill, SS to refill stealth, Blitz, enter stealth again or Sly Flourish the weak adds to death.
With the right approach, it should not be hard to clear dailies and minor HEs solo. I've already completed the IWD campaign using the above approach. I use the same setup for Kessell's Retreat and rarely have any problems as well.
dont get me wrong i can solo anything that can be soloed but its just to boring lol
10k lb 6k blitz crit i 6k dazing its no fun
I still enjoy playing my TR the most out of all the classes. My takeaway in IWD is to compete with CWs and GWFs to see who clears the fastest when we happen to run against the same mob. It's pretty fun that way to make your own challenges.
Some of the earlier comments on this thread gave me the following impressions. Stealth builds are highly ineffective in pve, and rogues build for PVP will suck at PVE content and this is one of the reasons no one wants to take a TR on a dungeon run.
If my impressions are completely off base i apologize. Min/max'ing for pve/pvp will no doubt make you slightly better at one or the other. But I see no reason you can't build for both, keep perma-stealth as an option and switch out gear/powers according to if your soloing content, clearing a dungeon with a group, or pvp'ing. This is what I have always done.
My example of a Pvorp crit CW daily was an extreme example of how a CW's POTENTIAL damage completely outclasses anything a TR has to offer. Not every cw is that well geared or has the skill to pull off consistent crit dailies. There is a huge spread of how well geared and how skilled the players are in every class. Gearing up and getting better is part of the fun of playing the game. Except it's not much fun for a TR. Because no one wants to take you on a dungeon run. Even if you gear to the max and develop your pve skills as much as possible a mediocre cw or gwf can easily outperform you. The notion of a TR paying to get into a dungeon run is a symptom of this. In short Cw's are like pizza in a dungeon, even when they are bad they are still good(unless they just plain suck). TR's are like milk that might have exceeded it's expiration date, they might be ok, but do you really want to risk it? This is entirely because of class mechanics and not anything TR's are doing themselves.
he pretty much die all the time but we love him so much cause he soooo aggressive and fun to play with!! (He uses auto-tune in VC ffs!!)
Its ridiculous when he tries to drop smoke and the casting animation just kills him (I hope they'll change it).
BlackberryCheesecake CW
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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