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Matchmaking- partial premades put together against pugs
hamletswords
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 1,320 Bounty Hunter
So, today I queued with a good TR and every game we got set up with good players- all like 15k each. They probably queued together like us.
This happened like 7 games in a row and we faced conistantly horribly geared people. I finally had to stop because it was too boring.
So then I went back to solo queuing and every time I got set up with lots of low geared people, 7ks, 8ks etc., usually multiple on the same team.
It seems like there's something in the matchmaking algorithm that favors putting partial-premades together and keeping solo puggers with other solo puggers. That's fine, except when you have 2 partial premades on one side and all puggers on the other.
This obviously isn't how it should work. Partial premades should be pitted AGAINST eachother with puggers filling in the spots.
Having 7k and 8ks in pvp matches with people 15+ is bad enough but stacking them all on the same team, BY DESIGN, is even worse!
This happened like 7 games in a row and we faced conistantly horribly geared people. I finally had to stop because it was too boring.
So then I went back to solo queuing and every time I got set up with lots of low geared people, 7ks, 8ks etc., usually multiple on the same team.
It seems like there's something in the matchmaking algorithm that favors putting partial-premades together and keeping solo puggers with other solo puggers. That's fine, except when you have 2 partial premades on one side and all puggers on the other.
This obviously isn't how it should work. Partial premades should be pitted AGAINST eachother with puggers filling in the spots.
Having 7k and 8ks in pvp matches with people 15+ is bad enough but stacking them all on the same team, BY DESIGN, is even worse!
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
Post edited by hamletswords on
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I'm a 14-15K TR (depending on what I'm wearing) and I was queuing alone. Been queueing alone for a long time. Kept getting the 6-9K GS people and got tired of it, despite being perma stealth and my efforts to backcap we lose.... So I opened up my friends list and called a powerful GWF and a PathFinder HR XD. And the 4 next matches were "Nickel" like the french would say. They were impeccable. We literally stomped 1000-50 the 4 games. Is this what Cryptic wants ? This matchmaking seems to favorite semi-premades/premade and heavily penalizes the solo queuer with "Drag" teams.
I don't know but I never had the kind of day I had yesterday. If this keeps up I'll have to find a decent player and grab them and queue with them, but then we'll just get paired with other partial premades agaisnt the same badly geared people I would've been matched with solo...
Either way finding a decent fun match is almost impossible because it really does seem partial premades are put together to make one ad-hoc full premade against pugs.
The thing is, the way it seems to actually work is:
10 people queue.
2 partial premades of 2 people each, both good players.
The partial premades are put on one side while everyone else is put on the other.
It seems like the priority is to put grouped people with other grouped people, rather than even out a match.
I suspect it may be because it's trying to set up top-notch matches of premades against premades, but what ends up happening most of the time is there's not enough premade people queueing, so the partials get put together and wait for a full-premade opponent. When one doesn't queue in the time limit, they're just thrown against puggers.
What should happen is a second step, where once the 10 people are set for a match, the partial premades are seperated and put on different sides.
I totally get that there's going to be gear/skill disparity because we all want fast queues. But it shouldn't be stacked agaisnt eachother.
2 decent ELO + 2 decent ELO + 1 (whatever)
vs
5 x low ELO (aka whatever)
instead of like this
2 decent ELO + 3 (whatever)
vs
2 decent ELO + 3 (whatever)
That contains the exact same players, but in a composition that would be a lot more fair and fun for everybody involved.
No, the underlying mechanics are not publicized. All anyone has to go on is their own experiences and those documented by talking to other players. What we do know is that what the queue puts together consistently feels very one-sided, which is a bad experience for players who care about PvP *and* players who only care about the daily.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I don't know how much you PvP, if at all, but that has not matched very closely with my experience. My experience has aligned strongly with the people above.
It is possible that the ELO matchmaking gets progressively worse as you rise in ranking due to the smaller pool of players the system wants to put you with, however it decides it.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The problem with matchmaking is that it doesn't work. Or maybe Im too stupid to grasp the concept of making 8-9k GS toons fight 15k+ monsters. But hey, at least we have quicker queue pops. Most of the matches, due to GS gap, are basically 3v5, and don't you dare to leave one to save that wasted 10 minutes. Well, yeah, its a bad thing, but not as bad as the "bottleneck for other pvpers".
Just give us some kind of GS brackets or rework the system - in its current state its an outrage.
Based on my experience (and I PVP a LOT- I think I may have the most games played of anyone since the leaderboard was established), the matchmaker prioritizes putting partial-premades together and then, if at all, factors in ELO.
that's based on the assumption that only seasoned players are pvping. new characters with low or non-existant ranks are pvping. there is likely a wide range of ranks that are queuing on a daily basis. who gets into those matches are based on who is queued at that particular moment. we cannot see how many are queued or what their ranks are. it makes more logical sense that pvp matches are grouped based on available players and their rankings. perhaps there are better times to pvp like a saturday afternoon where there may be more people in queue, but assumptions that the system is broken or not working are unrealistic. if it wasn't working, matches would be like they were before the implementation and from my experience, i can tell you they aren't. no match is going to be completely balanced, but the ranking system is going to try to get it as close as possible based on what is in queue.
Explain how 2 groups of partial-premades gets put together against 8k puggers? This happens a lot.
Why aren't the partial-premades separated and put against eachother?
I think we all understand that because we want fast games, 2 partial-premades of 15k+ pvpers may end up in the same game as 8k puggers.
But why is matchmaking always putting them on the same SIDE?
At least a match with 2 15ks on opposite sides could be interesting to see which can carry their team more. But a match with 4-5 15ks against 8ks is just dumb.
Guess I was getting picked up by partial premades previously, and then being set up against full premades later. Frustrating because I'm on 99 wins and just need that last **** one. As has been said, partial premades should be split, for better games. Rolfstomps are no good because the winning side gets low final points, and even though they win, the low result screws their average score per game, and hence they go down in the rankings.
The way it works is that system would try to throw a 5 of people together and then start to look for another group of 5, and try to match the average ranking of your team, and if the system fail to find a group that is close it would eventually just randomly distribute another group that is waiting in queue regardless of their ranking alike. That is why you always have extremely unbalanced team.
It is just like how when you do 5 man premade, if you don't get a queue pop within the first 30s-60s you will get a group of pug with low skill/gear because the system fail to pair your premade with another similar rating group.
If anyone remember when the tenacity patch first go live, the match making take 40 mins to pop for a 5 man premade because back then the system would not allowed your 5 man premade to be pair up with groups that are not even close to your rating. Unfortunately due to the lack of active player who are in queue they eventually shut it down and change it to what it is now, the system would eventually pair you up with a group that is completely not close to your group's rating because there is no group with similar rating in queue.
That is why you always get 2+2 premade + pug facing a group of random pug or 2+2 premade versus 2+2 premade but the other team's premade are PVE player with 10k gs and had no clue what they are doing.
System is absolutely destroying the PVP experience, and Melodywhr's opinion does not worth anything regarding this issue because what I said at the first line. This is not a personal attack to Melodywhr but a fact. If Melodywhr can provide solid and convicing proof to argue that we should listen we will, but I doubt that is the case.
My best advice for you is to just queue if you have a unbalance game just alt-tab and watch some funny video, that is what most people do now.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
but frankly this has been overblown since Ive been here, all of my classes are over 50% win rate.. what do you expect that you would win every match?
Go look at your characters on leader-boards, I bet your at 50% or better.
Sometimes you get lousy team members, sometimes you get great ones, I've been dumped into what I thought was a great group all 15K plus with some 16s... ya I thought, we will dom this in a couple seconds.. didnt even hit x , just rushed 2 with my GWF... GULP... there were 3 synergy. Dead.. seconds happen, go out again and try to not confront them directly and drag the match out by constant node swapping, result was loss 1000-434. So I didnt feel that bad, not bad against a partial premade at that level honestly.
You just never know, asked in party, none of us were premades, but we were apparently the best match for the very second for the other team, doesnt matter that they were all probably 2-3k gear score and coordinated better then us, we were just the best option for the system.
The point to all that is , even if you pull a good team, you could lose!
I think the system does try to match you as best as it can, but it has to pull from a limited pool, sometimes you get dead weight, sometimes you dont.
I wouldnt mind a minimum standard of entry, but lets not go overboard.
again if you think Im wrong, go into your leaderboard history and see where you at, if you are truly below 50% then I will start listening.
You want a better percentage? get into a pvp guild I guess. Otherwise you are going to have to live with this the way it is.
Also, instead of throwing insults around, try to encourage the teamates who are net set up, Ive had many conversations with poeple just starting out, tell them what to search for in AH, how to grind GG coins ect, you cant imagine how many dont know anything about any of that yet, but all they get in chat is.. "noobz, you dragz us down noobz, you suckz hard man, dont come here againz!"
Which is why maybe a tutorial is warranted.
i hope they can figure out how to make matchmaking work with taking gs along in it, as promised in the original video where matchmaking was anounced.
i understand it`s hard to do right, so i`ll be maybe back more when it`s made.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
This. It is actually a good resolution even under the current matchmaking.
I'd personally like that, especially since I only solo queue, but it's not a solo game. That would kind of take away from the possibility of a two top-notch teams performing at optimal levels competing.
Not that this ever really actually seems to happen.
You could do it like Kolevra says, and have a ranked pvp only for solo queue, and free for all pvp not ranked, and just everyone against everyone.
Or the other way is to have the ranked pvp for ONLY premades, you have a permanent group with who you pvp for ranked matches. and you can't queue sol (like arenas in WoW).
i`m my own best party.
So much for the idea of PvP guilds.
The leaderboard came into existence and suddenly nobody wanted to do pick-up games(like those gym class games where you got picked to play) or arranged premades anymore. As a result, I don't really play NW now. I have zero interest in pugging or roflstomping.
Mod 3 singlehandedly killed the premade vs premade PvP scene.
So, are you in one of those guilds?
even players with gear play like.. lol,
i see them fight as melee vs a gf next to red nodes.
i see them stand waiting for someone to come hiding, yes next to a red node, while not making effort to just stand on it and cap.
weirdest thing, but these are even pvp geared players, who should know how to play a little
this story is way longer then i`m going to type.
it`s a lot of glory boosting also besides that weird player boosting.
and it won`t be a downfall for me, i just stop play and don`t boost them if they play like total ...
so at least they don`t get boosted into higher spots and anoy others.
so i rather see a game with 1v1 coming, where i don`t waste time