Just remove the life steal or give a very hard diminishing return to it like 2k = 5% and both GF/DC will be very useful in dungeons, one of them absorbing damage, the other one healing and protecting, HR buffs would be more desirable too, reduce the amount of healing granted by every potion. This would mark a enormous difference. Reduce unstoppable just enough to make a difference between Destroyer and Sentinel.
Problem here is; GFs may not be able to sustain their own increase in threat because their new guard is as flawed as the current one and aside from a slight HP buff their survivability has been left unchanged, and as it currently stands, the Live Server GWF is the tankier class. The GF on Preview will not be able to ''baby sit'' a GWF because he himself is flawed.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
so they'll do these changes blindly without thinking to much, not to say feedback isn't going very well , the idea will be like let's diminish some skills, but you forgot even if you do that, another class will be OP in pvp , don't worry we'll think of another update... so it will be like a triangle
the class is OP -> nerf them -> making op again -> nerf it again... that's what happend with gwf so far, but no worries you guys can make good balance, if the devs play this game... dont know why you need to nerf so much from gwf, the Roar would be enough, and like i said a gwf can stil be killed by CW/HR/TR ... so why wold you nerf the unstopable? i as a 17k gs pvp gwf will get my *** whopped from 2 players with 12gs ? i don't think it's fair..
"The stupidest whine ever" comment cost you your rebuttal. - Ambisinisterr
for the guy who posted below, that's the stupiest whine ever, how could a gwf be tankier than a GF? you know why? because there aren't so many GF builded for PVP cause they lack to think ... i've seen 2-3 GF with 40k hp in pvp, and that's the build they should aim, but majority of gf run with 30hp , why? cause they don't think and come to forum and whine and from this devs starts to do their job as nerfing things...
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Armor penetration and critical rate, is far more important than hp. These 40k HP GF cannot put a dent into a raw egg with their 5% crit and default arpen and are effectively useless in PvP while a decently specced GF is able to wreak havoc upon any opponent.
I just notice this: all non GWF players are happy with the change on unstoppable but all GWF players are not. So, DEVs, to who do you think you should listen?
As i said on my first post, most changes are really hard on GWFs. The mark change is fine.
The roar change is ludicrous, it should be a prone again but without CC inmunity piercing and Takedown MUST prone again cause these both powers are now useless due Tenacity. Is impossible to chain or, in case of Roar due all those short cast times, interrupt ANYTHING from these encounters yet HRs can do with graps, CWs can do it with choke [we will see how "funny" is to being hit by a choke + Ice knife combo or GF's Bull + indomitable combo]. The problem on Prones is not the "prone" itself, but the fact than prones do not applies Tenacity or, in case to GWFs, Steel Grace reductions and THIS is the issue devs must face: make prones affected/reduced by tenacity and Steel Grace
the problem of prones is that they prone! and on top of that there is no counter.
And this is good when a class has one with a cooldown of maybe 15 sec ( you know timing can be considered a counter action ) but stop to be good when you have 2 encounters (with ridicolous cooldown) that prone + 2 daily that do the same.
To the people saying takedown damage was ok...10-14k ? that was ok? on a 5.8 second encounter? that prones/stuns? you guys have a funny concept of balance.
Now let's suppose prones become stuns, subjected to tenacity as ALL CC SHOULD BE. You really complain to have 3 stuns? really?
" Is impossible to chain " oh i think that was the purpose but to me chain prones are now chain stuns (with tenacity).
Nothing is OP until there is a way (just one) to counter it. Airplanes arent OP in war until there are antiaircraft gun.
Now dont come saying "you pvpers always messing up in my ****s". Just because Ads cant write on forums or screaming OP OP OP doesnt mean is all working as intented.
they overdid with the unstoppable nerf tho. 15-25% would have been better.
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
All of this is spot on. Im with the game since it started, I play only fighters and I know the stages the GWF went tru. Currently my GWF is 17k, my GF is 15.2. Its pretty shocking to see my Destroyer easily climb to 31K HP with just 2 pieces of Grim Sentinel gear while losing almost nothing of his damage. If I was willing to give up some more crit and power ( As I have alot of both ) I could probably have a Destroyer with 40k HP who still can muster a reliable 20K+ crit with IBS, nice eh ?
The GF on the other hand has laughable +health on the profound/grim sets. Has useless crit rate ( even 3000 isnt enought to ensure reliable crits ). Has issues stacking ArmPen and if he manages to get 2000 crit/armpen and also wants recovery/regen/power he is pretty much stuck at low HP. Did I mention that his deflect is also low despite having more deflect rate than my GWF..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I've gone onto the preview shard to test out my Iron Vanguard/Destroyer GWF on IWD heroic encounters. My GWF is pvp focused but with what I consider to be my PvE setup here's where my stats are (plus my augment companion):
GS: 17.3k
power: 5.6k
crit: 693 (20.8 crit %, i use a normal PF)
arp: 2.2k
recovery: 2.9k
defense: 3.5k
deflect: 853
regen: 1.8k
life steal: 1.1k
i've got 2/4 instigator grim and 2/4 purified (greater corrupt BI overload chant) with purified main hand and off hand.
My regular pve rotation is IBS, frontline surge and roar for encounters, destroyer and weapon master for passives, savage advance and slam for dailies & sure strike and wicked strike for at-wills.
Minor encounters didn't seem to be any harder. Didn't have to use a pot to clear any out. Majors were noticably trickier, the drop in DR during unstoppable was obvious and even using pots and running around I wasn't as effective in clearing out 5-6 enemy mobs.
But someone in here mentioned daring shout as a way to get back some DR, so I switched in that for roar. With that an unstoppable popped, I seemed like my DR was close to back to where it was before. But going from 7 second roar cooldowns to 14 for daring shout hurt, and found myself being out of unstoppable too long if I timed the encounters wrong.
And so then I took out surge and went with IBS, roar and daring shout. With good timing I was very rarely ever out of IBS and even though that took my DPS down some my survivability improved quite a bit. That'd probably work well in a party and I could possibly even do some tanking with enough support from a DC.
So that's one way for destroyers to adjust to the unstoppable nerf, but that'd still reduce DPS and might not be much more DPS than a sentinel could pull off if it geared up offensively.
If they're to raise up the Unstoppable DR any, and I'm not sure yet if that's necessary, 12.5-25% would be pretty adequate. Then the last sentinel feat would double that to get back to 25-50%.
Im sure that droping 1 encounter for daring shout will not impact ur dps alot, usualy i see ppl using not so fast (and takedown) as their last optional slot, and not so fast dsnt have a very good damage.After module 3 patch gwfs are mainly single target dps then aoe dps, most of gwfs damage is IBS, and wicked/weapon master strike + daily. Im glad someone tryed daring shout cuz it is a very good power that destroyers totaly forgot. I realy doubt sentinel can come even close to destroyer, hes somwhere close to conq GFs. Its gona be fine it takes just a lil practice but destroyers will be FINE!
When my cleric end his dodges, he can walk out of red area. OMG I AM HACKER and I didn't know that until now!
Oh and I can see the movements of NPC's and be precautious. Thanks Ethraniev, you taught me how to play.
Sorry, i started read your post, i then though "which class is him?" i saw your sign and i just started to laugh. Pls, do not comment anymore about "prones" being you a TR with a 16 secs encounter which allows TRs to become inmune to all damage for 5 secs and which can be activated at same time than a hit which always crits and on top on that, a 16 CD encounter which stops anything inside its radious even with 25% Tenacity for 5 more secs... But, wait, better yet: lets quit the invulneravility from ItC and the stun from Screen... and the, maybe someone, not me, will listen to your complains about the prones on Takedown/FLS and Roar.
your answer to my argument is amazing. Is this the best you can put out?
just for the note: i dont have nothing to do anymore with my tr, so i rolled an hr and a gwf too. both rank 9.
NO I didnt forget these things. Trust me im not just QQing about a nerf to a class, I have been an advocate of many things to my own classes.
The big issue I see - from someone who has played both sides - is that GWFs HEAVILY rely on ranged stuns/prones to just CATCH a target.
They rely HEAVILY on unstoppable to survive while other classes just kite them around.
you just removed BOTH of those features. Basically Destroyer is unplayable because of how squishy it is. Honestly 5-10% DR? basically its a GWF without unstoppable - see how fast they die.
So for Sentinels... Ok they keep unstoppable, takedown got a massive damage nerf, FLS got a massive prone nerf, they already had their teeth taken from them module 3.... So they do what now? Contest a node? Well they still arent HALF the contester the TR is, and I have a feeling a GF will hop over the GWF now for the #2 slot here as well if specced right.
Like I said... people complain about the damage a Destroyer can do, fine, nerf the damage. But if they cant DODGE hits, and now cant TAKE hits... what good are they in pvp?
If a Sentinel cant catch anything via prones and cant deal damage even when they can catch someone, what good are they in pvp?
I see TR becoming back as "top dog" due to perma TR cheese and HRs right behind them with all these actual buffs to the class... GFs seem like they may be VIABLE but its yet to be seen.
To early to tell, but I think the GWF community has gotten so used to using Unstoppable as a crutch and not using ( needing) to use their other abilities as intended... I think now GWfs will have some weaknesses, and need to play much more tactful then the Smash Unstoppable kill everyone, sprint away style we have now.
GWF will need to use unstoppable as a defensive tactic now instead of just using it to be offensive, they will also have to better use their other abilities and encounters rather then just all burst abilities.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
edited June 2014
This is without most of my enchantments slotted. Full pic here:
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.
And you dare to say so with a HR on your rooster??? ROFL!!!! you are very funny, and thx for your time, but here are discussing about serious stuff, pls, go to the HRs post and preach there to nerf the Medicine T3 Feat.
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.[/QUOTE]
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Even before the Deep Gash nerf, any CW worth their slot in an instance would deal 2x-3x the damage my 17k GS Sentinel would - again, I was using the bugged Deep Gash which was a HUGE damage boost. The fact you can come in second doesnt surprise me at all, heck you could come in first, it just means your probably not running with a good group.
Another thing, this is about Destroyers not Sentinels and a MAJOR reason most of these are getting changes is PVP. Go try a Destroyer GWF in PVP with only 5-10% DR boost on unstoppable... Its a joke.
Not only will you never catch anyone TO be able to hit them, you wont deal any damage as Sentinel and wont survive at all as Destroyer.
Now, currently on live, Roar needed a fix, and sure Unstoppable Recovery Feat needed to respect healing depression. Heck I dont even mind the threat rush nerf.
But NOW, there are TOO many nerfs. It needs to go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Bring Unstoppable back to to sya 15-30%, then you can leave the nerf to prone effects, but LEAVE takedown damage as is on live - there is no need for this when the stun is getting nerfed.
2) Keep Unstoppable low %, but bring back the control on takedown/frontline AND Roar. If a GWF cant survive in battle, they need to control targets better.
If you do #2 your basically taking the GWf and turning them MORE into a CW, so I am more in favor of #1. I dont mind having a hard time chasing people around and dealing good damage. The fact of the matter is though, most classes have plenty of "dodges" or "teleports" to escape not only you, but your encounters. This is why everyone uses prone/cc abilities because dodge in this game completely negates attacks and puts things on CD.
For that reason, the nerf to Unstoppable PLUS the removal of controls, make the GWF a dead class in PVP (Destoryers) and nobody wants to play a Sentinel in PVP because they deal zero damage - especially now that prones are removed, which the only reason Sentinels could deal semi-decent damage was via "mark" and dealing 15% more to market targets.
If you cant control someone, and makr is removed upon them attacking you, how will you get the benefits in pvp of "powerful challenge" if you can never keep a mark up?
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Even before the Deep Gash nerf, any CW worth their slot in an instance would deal 2x-3x the damage my 17k GS Sentinel would - again, I was using the bugged Deep Gash which was a HUGE damage boost. The fact you can come in second doesnt surprise me at all, heck you could come in first, it just means your probably not running with a good group.
Another thing, this is about Destroyers not Sentinels and a MAJOR reason most of these are getting changes is PVP. Go try a Destroyer GWF in PVP with only 5-10% DR boost on unstoppable... Its a joke.
Not only will you never catch anyone TO be able to hit them, you wont deal any damage as Sentinel and wont survive at all as Destroyer.
Now, currently on live, Roar needed a fix, and sure Unstoppable Recovery Feat needed to respect healing depression. Heck I dont even mind the threat rush nerf.
But NOW, there are TOO many nerfs. It needs to go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Bring Unstoppable back to to sya 15-30%, then you can leave the nerf to prone effects, but LEAVE takedown damage as is on live - there is no need for this when the stun is getting nerfed.
2) Keep Unstoppable low %, but bring back the control on takedown/frontline AND Roar. If a GWF cant survive in battle, they need to control targets better.
If you do #2 your basically taking the GWf and turning them MORE into a CW, so I am more in favor of #1. I dont mind having a hard time chasing people around and dealing good damage. The fact of the matter is though, most classes have plenty of "dodges" or "teleports" to escape not only you, but your encounters. This is why everyone uses prone/cc abilities because dodge in this game completely negates attacks and puts things on CD.
For that reason, the nerf to Unstoppable PLUS the removal of controls, make the GWF a dead class in PVP (Destoryers) and nobody wants to play a Sentinel in PVP because they deal zero damage - especially now that prones are removed, which the only reason Sentinels could deal semi-decent damage was via "mark" and dealing 15% more to market targets.
If you cant control someone, and makr is removed upon them attacking you, how will you get the benefits in pvp of "powerful challenge" if you can never keep a mark up?
or they make the sentinel powers like restoring strike to deal some damage , and low the gwf destroyer unstopable to 15-35% percent and stay a little longer.
not to say they nerfed the gwf weapon master , the buff stays on you for max 2 second out of combat, and i mean combat is when you hit the target...
and that guy with the pic really needs to stop doing that, like i said, FAKE feedback from alot of people in here... only wanting devs to do badly update, reason? i don't know, childish acts...
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nokehMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 5Arc User
edited June 2014
Let us all take a moment of silence for all those Fighter's of Great Weaponry. All those who praised they are gods among men, who top the charts, and belong to thy following of Synergy. For they have fallen and will never be forgotten.
*lowers head*
Thank you.
The time has come for us to move forward in this new era. The era of the Hunter.
I don't post much about my GWF or GF b/c one is OP and the other is only fun in t2/t1 dungeons not MC or VT or IWD. Anyhow you should consider getting rid of player based proning all together. You're making the GF more wanted in pvp now for one reason, bullcharge - it's the only prone now. The problem with this is while a player is proned, that player's deflect is negated. So you have 0% chance to deflect in pvp when proned, bullcharge will be a must and GWF and GF will run around with each other even more b/c they will be reliant on one another for dmg. Please see that this doesn't effect PvE much and it will greatly benefit every class experience if players cannot have prone abilities but PvE mobs still can. This will also make GWF be more of a berserker class which is how you had it in open beta when I enjoyed the class. I can't stand sitting there in the red or seeing other DPS GWFs do that. So I very much appreciate that if someone's feat tree is destroyer, their gear will have to be tanky and give the class less DPS. Now I'll go plea in the GF thread to stop making GF hold more aggro if it can't take it. Also are there any plans to rework the dungeons? You've made the classes less AoE DPS, maybe you're setting up for the new warlock class idk (I saw the warlock gear drops on preview), so the dungeons need to be about less AoE DPS and allow for lower ability to pull the whole room. I know this game wasn't originally intended to be a run around and kill things without order in dungeon and then maybe, depending on team's gear/skill coordinate on bosses. Right now there is no need for coordination... sadly.
Please read this I hope you read this; if you enjoy making money I'm sure you will realize what I've stated is beneficial.
I see everyone complaining about the Unstoppable nerf "Because GWF's are on the front lines, soaking up damage". That's your choice in playstyle.
Destroyers are a Damage Hard / Die Easy build now, like it should have been. If you want to be on the front lines again, spec into Sentinel.
Now the trees are more separated, which is a good thing. The last feat in the Sentinel tree makes Unstoppable act like it has for all GWF's.
Now instead of being the end-all-be-all class, regardless of spec, GWF's need to make a choice. Tank and hold points in PvP/front lines in PvE? Sentinel. Offense and big hits in PvP? Destroyer. Huge damage numbers in PvE? Remove threat gaining skills, slot AoE/Single Target DPS skills, while spec'd destroyer.
HR has been buffed in some regards, and nerfed in others. I *do not* agree with Boar Charge still proning players, while GWF's have no prones now though.
I'm sad to see DC's haven't been fixed AT ALL. CW's and GWF's and HR's have all these changes, DC's get a tool tip fix... Someday, I'll be able to un-retire both of my DC's... some day.
dear cryptic friends, we live in a era of tehnology , chose 15 gwf players, top players from leaderboard, and take their opinions , we have raidcall or other programs where we can intereact... so with other CW/HR/TR/DC/GF players, this is the best choice of having a real good feedback ... dedicate some free time from your work and we'll dedicate some of ours... we'll tell you what it's needed to be nerfed and what doesn't , if this succeds maybe there won't be any other issuses in the near future. this is what i call feedback and really take some good feedback, rather then listening on forums...
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
dear cryptic friends, we live in a era of tehnology , chose 15 gwf players, top players from leaderboard, and take their opinions , we have raidcall or other programs where we can intereact... so with other CW/HR/TR/DC/GF players, this is the best choice of having a real good feedback ... dedicate some free time from your work and we'll dedicate some of ours... we'll tell you what it's needed to be nerfed and what doesn't , if this succeds maybe there won't be any other issuses in the near future. this is what i call feedback and really take some good feedback, rather then listening on forums...
Even the best players don't know nothing about balance. They find what works for them and that's all. And you can't do any balance if you don't even know how to create mathematical models. Knowing the mmorpg slang and playing in premade don't make you a mmorpg developer.
Well, seems like you don't understand the differences between the classes and how they can avoid damage.
CWs, DCs, HRs, and TRs can dodge attacks and take no damage. GFs can block and take no damage. GWFs cannot do this. They need to rely on unstoppable to do it. Also, they still take damage when unstoppable. Running away doesn't help because more often than not you get stuck and can't get away, or you take damage nevertheless.
My guess is you never played a GWF and don't know what you're talking about. There are lots of GWFs dying like flies during dungeon runs. I've been there and have seen it.
GF block is good for 5-8 hits. They survive by a process called walking (no sprint) out of the red. Now given that their CC immunity is a daily that offers 0 bonus mitigation and 0 temp HP and not a tab power with about 50% uptime I think with Sprint you can work it out. The tried and true method of standing in red and holding down left-click will likely go out of favor. I have one of each fighter class BTW.
Ah I almost forgot and the lowest weapon damage in the game. And virtually no class equipment with offensive stats.
I too am really leery about nerfing "base" damage. I see the point - in that IV weapon damage difference was not intended. At the same time, wouldnt attacking with a 2h sword deal more damage than on a GF with a 1H sword?
The REASON people complained about the damage difference was that swordmaster needed a buff, not that IV needed a nerf...
I like the change to Flourish - although 2 seconds of stun with CC resist ends up being about .5-1 sec in PVP. Not sure if thats noticable or not....
YOu guys ALREADY nerfed Frontline surge damage a while back, the prone-> stun change and NOW this? Thats a little over the top....
Threat Rush damage change? Eh - its more of a gap closer than damager, if your gonna do this, again, GWFs really need some additional CC..... Flourish looks like its now ALOT better than frontline surge.
The reason this makes no sense Crush, is not when you have two equally geared lvl 60s. One a GF the other a GWF, they will end up dealing similar damage on the same IV skill, where as a GWF SHOULD deal more damage than a GF. THe issue, again, was that IV was initially BASED around the 600ish weapon damage, so making a GWf with 1000 made it deal alot of damage where as Swordmaster was initially based off 1000.
So IMO, dont nerf frontline or threat rush, JUST buff swordmaster to make THAT a better tree as an option. If you REALLY wanna make them more appealing, give swordmaster some sort of "gap closer" like threat rush, OR, give swordmaster better "cc" - flourish is a STEP that way.
OVERALL though, I see nothing addressing the MASSIVE over nerf to this class....
1) Bring Unstoppable back to 15-30% base. Sents can keep 25-50%.
2) Bring back takedown PRONE. DONT nerf the damage.
3) FrontLine Surge needs a LONGER stun timer - im fine with this as a stun but currently its like .2 sec in pvp which is nothing.
how can you agree with Frontline Surge being a stun not a prone? this doesn't even make sense, FS stunnin is now the same skill as flourish doin 3x less damage... or it will be very OP when 5vs5 players will fight on node2 and stunnin them and then IBS it will be more easier.. LQL ... but what was the idea of changin prone into stun ? didnt got that right..
how can you agree with Frontline Surge being a stun not a prone? this doesn't even make sense, FS stunnin is now the same skill as flourish doin 3x less damage... or it will be very OP when 5vs5 players will fight on node2 and stunnin them and then IBS it will be more easier.. LQL ... but what was the idea of changin prone into stun ? didnt got that right..
Well because FLS can hit multiple targets and if they are going to try and reduce the amount of CC GWFs have, id rather have them remove FLS prone but keep takedown prone, than keep FLS prone and remove takedown prone.
The stun needs to be much longer though to match flourish atleast. Again, why I also suggested NOT nerfing FLS's damage as that is kinda dumb as well. But the fast it can be used at range, and hit multiple targets, I see no problem with it dealing less damage than flourish, but it should stun atleast the same amount as flourish....
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Problem here is; GFs may not be able to sustain their own increase in threat because their new guard is as flawed as the current one and aside from a slight HP buff their survivability has been left unchanged, and as it currently stands, the Live Server GWF is the tankier class. The GF on Preview will not be able to ''baby sit'' a GWF because he himself is flawed.
the class is OP -> nerf them -> making op again -> nerf it again... that's what happend with gwf so far, but no worries you guys can make good balance, if the devs play this game... dont know why you need to nerf so much from gwf, the Roar would be enough, and like i said a gwf can stil be killed by CW/HR/TR ... so why wold you nerf the unstopable? i as a 17k gs pvp gwf will get my *** whopped from 2 players with 12gs ? i don't think it's fair..
"The stupidest whine ever" comment cost you your rebuttal. - Ambisinisterr
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
the problem of prones is that they prone! and on top of that there is no counter.
And this is good when a class has one with a cooldown of maybe 15 sec ( you know timing can be considered a counter action ) but stop to be good when you have 2 encounters (with ridicolous cooldown) that prone + 2 daily that do the same.
To the people saying takedown damage was ok...10-14k ? that was ok? on a 5.8 second encounter? that prones/stuns? you guys have a funny concept of balance.
Now let's suppose prones become stuns, subjected to tenacity as ALL CC SHOULD BE. You really complain to have 3 stuns? really?
" Is impossible to chain " oh i think that was the purpose but to me chain prones are now chain stuns (with tenacity).
Nothing is OP until there is a way (just one) to counter it. Airplanes arent OP in war until there are antiaircraft gun.
Now dont come saying "you pvpers always messing up in my ****s". Just because Ads cant write on forums or screaming OP OP OP doesnt mean is all working as intented.
they overdid with the unstoppable nerf tho. 15-25% would have been better.
All of this is spot on. Im with the game since it started, I play only fighters and I know the stages the GWF went tru. Currently my GWF is 17k, my GF is 15.2. Its pretty shocking to see my Destroyer easily climb to 31K HP with just 2 pieces of Grim Sentinel gear while losing almost nothing of his damage. If I was willing to give up some more crit and power ( As I have alot of both ) I could probably have a Destroyer with 40k HP who still can muster a reliable 20K+ crit with IBS, nice eh ?
The GF on the other hand has laughable +health on the profound/grim sets. Has useless crit rate ( even 3000 isnt enought to ensure reliable crits ). Has issues stacking ArmPen and if he manages to get 2000 crit/armpen and also wants recovery/regen/power he is pretty much stuck at low HP. Did I mention that his deflect is also low despite having more deflect rate than my GWF..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Im sure that droping 1 encounter for daring shout will not impact ur dps alot, usualy i see ppl using not so fast (and takedown) as their last optional slot, and not so fast dsnt have a very good damage.After module 3 patch gwfs are mainly single target dps then aoe dps, most of gwfs damage is IBS, and wicked/weapon master strike + daily. Im glad someone tryed daring shout cuz it is a very good power that destroyers totaly forgot. I realy doubt sentinel can come even close to destroyer, hes somwhere close to conq GFs. Its gona be fine it takes just a lil practice but destroyers will be FINE!
Oh and I can see the movements of NPC's and be precautious. Thanks Ethraniev, you taught me how to play.
your answer to my argument is amazing. Is this the best you can put out?
just for the note: i dont have nothing to do anymore with my tr, so i rolled an hr and a gwf too. both rank 9.
To early to tell, but I think the GWF community has gotten so used to using Unstoppable as a crutch and not using ( needing) to use their other abilities as intended... I think now GWfs will have some weaknesses, and need to play much more tactful then the Smash Unstoppable kill everyone, sprint away style we have now.
GWF will need to use unstoppable as a defensive tactic now instead of just using it to be offensive, they will also have to better use their other abilities and encounters rather then just all burst abilities.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
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~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This is without most of my enchantments slotted. Full pic here:
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.
another awesome arguments are being pulled off.
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.[/QUOTE]
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Even before the Deep Gash nerf, any CW worth their slot in an instance would deal 2x-3x the damage my 17k GS Sentinel would - again, I was using the bugged Deep Gash which was a HUGE damage boost. The fact you can come in second doesnt surprise me at all, heck you could come in first, it just means your probably not running with a good group.
Another thing, this is about Destroyers not Sentinels and a MAJOR reason most of these are getting changes is PVP. Go try a Destroyer GWF in PVP with only 5-10% DR boost on unstoppable... Its a joke.
Not only will you never catch anyone TO be able to hit them, you wont deal any damage as Sentinel and wont survive at all as Destroyer.
Now, currently on live, Roar needed a fix, and sure Unstoppable Recovery Feat needed to respect healing depression. Heck I dont even mind the threat rush nerf.
But NOW, there are TOO many nerfs. It needs to go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Bring Unstoppable back to to sya 15-30%, then you can leave the nerf to prone effects, but LEAVE takedown damage as is on live - there is no need for this when the stun is getting nerfed.
2) Keep Unstoppable low %, but bring back the control on takedown/frontline AND Roar. If a GWF cant survive in battle, they need to control targets better.
If you do #2 your basically taking the GWf and turning them MORE into a CW, so I am more in favor of #1. I dont mind having a hard time chasing people around and dealing good damage. The fact of the matter is though, most classes have plenty of "dodges" or "teleports" to escape not only you, but your encounters. This is why everyone uses prone/cc abilities because dodge in this game completely negates attacks and puts things on CD.
For that reason, the nerf to Unstoppable PLUS the removal of controls, make the GWF a dead class in PVP (Destoryers) and nobody wants to play a Sentinel in PVP because they deal zero damage - especially now that prones are removed, which the only reason Sentinels could deal semi-decent damage was via "mark" and dealing 15% more to market targets.
If you cant control someone, and makr is removed upon them attacking you, how will you get the benefits in pvp of "powerful challenge" if you can never keep a mark up?
or they make the sentinel powers like restoring strike to deal some damage , and low the gwf destroyer unstopable to 15-35% percent and stay a little longer.
not to say they nerfed the gwf weapon master , the buff stays on you for max 2 second out of combat, and i mean combat is when you hit the target...
and that guy with the pic really needs to stop doing that, like i said, FAKE feedback from alot of people in here... only wanting devs to do badly update, reason? i don't know, childish acts...
*lowers head*
Thank you.
The time has come for us to move forward in this new era. The era of the Hunter.
Please read this I hope you read this; if you enjoy making money I'm sure you will realize what I've stated is beneficial.
Destroyers are a Damage Hard / Die Easy build now, like it should have been. If you want to be on the front lines again, spec into Sentinel.
Now the trees are more separated, which is a good thing. The last feat in the Sentinel tree makes Unstoppable act like it has for all GWF's.
Now instead of being the end-all-be-all class, regardless of spec, GWF's need to make a choice. Tank and hold points in PvP/front lines in PvE? Sentinel. Offense and big hits in PvP? Destroyer. Huge damage numbers in PvE? Remove threat gaining skills, slot AoE/Single Target DPS skills, while spec'd destroyer.
HR has been buffed in some regards, and nerfed in others. I *do not* agree with Boar Charge still proning players, while GWF's have no prones now though.
I'm sad to see DC's haven't been fixed AT ALL. CW's and GWF's and HR's have all these changes, DC's get a tool tip fix... Someday, I'll be able to un-retire both of my DC's... some day.
Even the best players don't know nothing about balance. They find what works for them and that's all. And you can't do any balance if you don't even know how to create mathematical models. Knowing the mmorpg slang and playing in premade don't make you a mmorpg developer.
GF block is good for 5-8 hits. They survive by a process called walking (no sprint) out of the red. Now given that their CC immunity is a daily that offers 0 bonus mitigation and 0 temp HP and not a tab power with about 50% uptime I think with Sprint you can work it out. The tried and true method of standing in red and holding down left-click will likely go out of favor. I have one of each fighter class BTW.
Ah I almost forgot and the lowest weapon damage in the game. And virtually no class equipment with offensive stats.
how can you agree with Frontline Surge being a stun not a prone? this doesn't even make sense, FS stunnin is now the same skill as flourish doin 3x less damage... or it will be very OP when 5vs5 players will fight on node2 and stunnin them and then IBS it will be more easier.. LQL ... but what was the idea of changin prone into stun ? didnt got that right..
Well because FLS can hit multiple targets and if they are going to try and reduce the amount of CC GWFs have, id rather have them remove FLS prone but keep takedown prone, than keep FLS prone and remove takedown prone.
The stun needs to be much longer though to match flourish atleast. Again, why I also suggested NOT nerfing FLS's damage as that is kinda dumb as well. But the fast it can be used at range, and hit multiple targets, I see no problem with it dealing less damage than flourish, but it should stun atleast the same amount as flourish....