Look at it this way, the unstoppable nerf is basically like nerfing TR's stealth from 10 seconds to 2 seconds, what world do the devs live in to think that is an acceptable change? you cant take the special ability of a class and divide it by 5 on a whim, the game was very close to being balanced, a damage nerf to GWF was in order, along with a survivability nerf to HR, giving more CC to CW, buffing GF etc, why not try balancing what you have already worked on, instead of rethinking and reworking everything, you guys have no idea how broken the balance will be if these changes go through, why just why?
Exactly. I also don't get it why the core mechanism of the class gets changed. Also this is the first case where it is depending on the choices you make. Very, very bad.
Looking at the leader board the GWF isn't as dominating as claimed by the devs. Now it will be either easy to kill or will not be able to kill others.
So, yes there are definitely some GWF's with god-mode complexes who seem to think they are supposed to just be standing still...
They may be able to, especially after Mod 3, but they are not supposed to be able to face tank everything...
Well, it is not about being able to stand still all the time. You have to know when you can do it and when you'd better run.
You need to get a feel for the amount of damage you can take to get unstoppable and you'll be able to heal while being unstoppable and doing damage. This is part of the fun playing the GWF (this is my subjective opinion). If I'd prefer to always run from any red area I'd play a TR/CW/DC/HR... which btw. I also do.
With the chances you'd either have to run far too often for being efficient (you can't deal damage while running) or you'll deal way too less damage to be able to heal yourself (when choosing the Sentinel path). Also running is not always an option because you may somehow get "stuck". May be a bug. Doesn't matter though, the problem exists. Thing is you try to run away, the system doesn't let you get away. You get hit.
IMHO a GWF with a GS of 17k and more and Life Steal of 14% should be able to easily do most of the solo content. He also shouldn't get easily in trouble in dungeons, especially if the dungeon is rated for a much lower GS.
A bit? You must be kidding! 10% is not noticeable. It may be measured but you will not be able to notice it. Thus unstoppable was actually taken away from all GWFs of level 50 and lower who do not want to go Sentinel (I might be wrong with the level).
While unstoppable still gives CC immunity it doesn't help. It's damage that gets you killed. Not any prones, stuns, roots, etc.
The GF is worse than the GWF. I play both and don't deny that. But it is the wrong approach trying to fix a class by nerfing other classes.
It does not help anyone playing a GF in PvE or PvP when the GWF's Unstoppable gets nerfed. In solo PvE play other classes just do not matter. In group PvE it hurts the Group. Everything will just take longer. In PvP the GF is just to weak against most of the classes. Therefore nerfing one class will not make much of a difference for him.
Look, the dude in scale shouldent be as squishy as the TR. We have. No. Other. Option. Like all other's have said. We have no dodge, we have no stuns, we have. This. And this is being nerfed to near no effectiveness. Once again, as all other's have said, 15-30 is reasonable. 5-10 is not. Even at high levels, you have to have an answer to all those big circles. The TR has stealth, the GF has a block, we have this, and no matter how you slice it, deminishing it hurt's us. Badly.
Absolutely. The bonus from Unstoppable must be high enough to be noticeable. You cannot notice a difference of 10%. There's just too much randomness when damage is calculated. Therefore the bonus must be large. I even doubt that 30% is enough and would suggest 40% - if lowering it at all.
As said GWFs die in dungeons with the current system. The change will make it worse. I tried it.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
yeah these changes are counter intuitive to what a fighter is. A fighter isnt one to play rogue tactics in combat. they are on the front lines for a reason. At this rate. GWF's will spend more time running after people, missing attacks and trying not to get hit than a rogue without stealth.
Thats what GWF's are going to become now. rogues with big weapons that cant dodge or stealth.
GWF's dont just die in dungeons with these changes. They die in everything. Unstoppable is thier only sort of mitigation they have.
I like how Unstoppable SUDDENLY became a problem now, even though it was the same way for a year. If I wanted to play a squishy melee I would've picked TR.
I couldn't agree more. I also doubt that the differences in PvP (and this is a PvP change) are that huge to justify removing Unstoppable for all but Sentinel builds (10% doesn't make a noticeable difference and is like not having it at all). The leader board clearly shows that GWFs are not dominating. It is just not true. They are on par with HRs and TRs.
Those rants synthesizes in few lines as bad are mentality now the majority of GWF players and the God mode of a idiot proof class.
The remark on red areas and unstoppable is hilarius.
Well, seems like you don't understand the differences between the classes and how they can avoid damage.
CWs, DCs, HRs, and TRs can dodge attacks and take no damage. GFs can block and take no damage. GWFs cannot do this. They need to rely on unstoppable to do it. Also, they still take damage when unstoppable. Running away doesn't help because more often than not you get stuck and can't get away, or you take damage nevertheless.
My guess is you never played a GWF and don't know what you're talking about. There are lots of GWFs dying like flies during dungeon runs. I've been there and have seen it.
they why can I get out of red areas with my GWF with sprint? am I a mage or something?
of course if I take too long I can't do it, same with any dodge mechanic. If I take too long then I get hit.
Sometimes it just doesn't work. The GWF somehow gets stuck and can't get away. It may be a bug. Also sometimes you still get damaged after leaving a red zone.
Doesn't Change one thing though. Sprint is no dodge.
Like u wrote, most of the ppl didnt even test it, its just based on asumption. I have a 17k gwf destroyer and its fine, its great to be honest with daring shout i soloed those full party encounters in IWD. + i pvped against a equal destroyer when i was on my GF and he almost 2 shoted me (16k gf, with 45k life and caped def). Unstopable is ok, nobody is gona attack and get trough ur unstopable buff cuz ur still CC immune. The only problem is that when ur outnumbered ur gona fall much faster than before, and thats great. We are all tired of gwfs holding against of pack and even killing a whole pack of players.
Well they did it. They went and "improved" the lagging class(es) by nerfing the working class(es). There should be a benchmark, any class above certain power level ( lets say 15-16k GS for example ) should be able to perform a certain way in PVE, lets say solo a Totem in the Pass. Getting to such GS is by no means easy nor it is cheap so its not unreasonable to expect great things from a toon I invested so much in (time/money)
Lets go to the Pass then. I've been there with my two characters, both fighters. My GWF who is a 17K Destroyer can solo a Totem on live with good footwork, Avalance of Steel and some pots. My 15.2K GF cannot. On Preview the GF fails much harder then on Live so the only outcome from the dev's "rebalancing" is that the GWF now also fails.
But wait I get your message devs. You're telling me "spend more of your precious time and money, grind away and get your GWF to 18-19K, then you'll be able to do what you can do now even with the scrapped unstoppable". I have my answer to that but since your forums are PG-13 I'll stick to visual aid..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Good job, guys. I especially like the change to Unstoppable.
Currently destroyers run ahead of everybody else in dungeons, aggroing everything and can still survive while dealing massive amounts of damage and with no risk of dying at all. This basically makes GFs useless and makes their life terribly difficult in doing their job if they are present.
The best way to run dungeons at the moment is aggroing everything in one place and nuking it, that's why CW and GWF are the best classes in dungeon runs. With the changes you made this will be more difficult and more cooperation between classes will be needed.
Thumbs up (both of them)!
Nonsense. You may be able to do this with a high end GWF having 18k GS and massive amounts of Life Steal - and only in some dungeons.
IMHO it is ok that a high end GWF can do this (in some dungeons). If there was hardly any difference between a 18k GWF and a 10k GWF in a 9k GS dungeon where's the point in increasing stats?
Also think about the low GS GWF players. They will have a hard time doing any dungeons because they will die more often and will get frustrated.
I feel that the Unstoppable change will hurt leveling GWFs and low GS GWFs to a point where they might not want to play the class (or the game) any longer. I'm playing a GWF for a year now and know how it feels to constantly die in dungeons. Has this been considered by the devs?
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
edited June 2014
Tested on Preview Shard with H3adache, Unstoppable is a joke now.
It does not reduce any damage at all, can't even notice. It seems like the DESTROYER should be renamed to Big Chicken from now on.
Devs, if you listen. Please change Unstoppable back to where it was for PVE or at least 15-35% minimum. You can have it at 5-10% for PVP is you wish.
You have simply killed the class, as the GWF is not going to be useful as he has. He will be running and hiding where the TR's will perform a better job by the looks of it now. Unstoppable needs to be reworked and the damage should not be changed in any way for the GWF as you need to build it anyway which makes it now so much harder as you need to maintain it and build it by having petty much no Unstoppable at all. Just a Big Balloon GWF
The changes on the PTR and previewshard forums are way over the top. Unstoppable should be getting a buff of increased damage resistance increase to something around 75-95% damage reduction.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The changes on the PTR and previewshard forums are way over the top. Unstoppable should be getting a buff of increased damage resistance increase to something around 75-95% damage reduction.
Now thats just ridiculous on the other end of the ridiculous scale.
GWF changes. This is what needs to happen. Roll back everything, and apply this.
Roar stopped from going through CC immunity.
Prones should respect CC resist and tenacity
Sentinel gwf's instead should get increased damage resistances in unstoppable but a decrease in damage by at most 15% while in unstoppable
Takedown's damage was fine, always has been. Having prone respect cc resist and tenacity is enough.
Mark changes are fine.
Threatening rush should fully recharge after 9 seconds regardless of how many charges are left.
GWF's have been fine and balanced up until they got iron vanguard.It was in the most balanced state GWF's have ever been (minutes the bug feats at the time) before that they were fine, and the reason being is because prone locking. But this wouldnt even be an issue if prones respected CC resist like every other CC effect in the game.
Thats all. Its really not that hard to figure that out for this class. Its simple, to the point, and doesnt rearrange the entire class and keeps them relevant and barely much different than how people play them now, leaving all the options and playstyles and builds still open without making GWF's non-stealth, non dodging rogues.
Edit: I cant get on preview right now, but can someone check on Roar. Does it just put a skill on cooldown when interrupted or does it just daze targets like interrupting shot does?
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
Nonsense. You may be able to do this with a high end GWF having 18k GS and massive amounts of Life Steal - and only in some dungeons.
[/COLOR]
Nope. One of my guildies is a 17k GWF with 1300 Life Steal and I see him doing it regularly in dungeons like Spellplague and Karrundax.
If you think 1300 is massive then you´re right, but I don´t think it is (I have a similar amount on my HR, 1260 actually, and are not obsessively stacking it).
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I hope you can do CN, MC, VT, Kessel, etc with a rainbow party. I encourage you, if you even try this, to make a video, upload it to youtube and paste here the link, surely, most of us will be impressed about such feat .
Isnt it great that some dungeons will be very hard to complete and only the most skilled will be able to do it? Thats what this game is missing. Every dungeon can be walked trough with current setup (cws, gwfs).. Current way is just pure farming, and where is fun in farm? The most epic moments i had in PVE is whn i was ungeared newbie when every t2 dung was a big challenge..
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Isnt it great that some dungeons will be very hard to complete and only the most skilled will be able to do it? Thats what this game is missing. Every dungeon can be walked trough with current setup (cws, gwfs).. Current way is just pure farming, and where is fun in farm? The most epic moments i had in PVE is whn i was ungeared newbie when every t2 dung was a big challenge..
These GWF's whose gearscores are in 15k+ dont even NEED to do these dungeons. They're far passed the dungeon requirements already. These dungeons are the same ones from a year ago when the highest gearscores were just pushing 12k. If a GWF at GS 15k cant farm a these dungeons and breeze through them in a party. Thats a prime fundamental problem.
Just remove the life steal or give a very hard diminishing return to it like 2k = 5% and both GF/DC will be very useful in dungeons, one of them absorbing damage, the other one healing and protecting, HR buffs would be more desirable too, reduce the amount of healing granted by every potion. This would mark a enormous difference. Reduce unstoppable just enough to make a difference between Destroyer and Sentinel.
Problem here is; GFs may not be able to sustain their own increase in threat because their new guard is as flawed as the current one and aside from a slight HP buff their survivability has been left unchanged, and as it currently stands, the Live Server GWF is the tankier class. The GF on Preview will not be able to ''baby sit'' a GWF because he himself is flawed.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
so they'll do these changes blindly without thinking to much, not to say feedback isn't going very well , the idea will be like let's diminish some skills, but you forgot even if you do that, another class will be OP in pvp , don't worry we'll think of another update... so it will be like a triangle
the class is OP -> nerf them -> making op again -> nerf it again... that's what happend with gwf so far, but no worries you guys can make good balance, if the devs play this game... dont know why you need to nerf so much from gwf, the Roar would be enough, and like i said a gwf can stil be killed by CW/HR/TR ... so why wold you nerf the unstopable? i as a 17k gs pvp gwf will get my *** whopped from 2 players with 12gs ? i don't think it's fair..
"The stupidest whine ever" comment cost you your rebuttal. - Ambisinisterr
for the guy who posted below, that's the stupiest whine ever, how could a gwf be tankier than a GF? you know why? because there aren't so many GF builded for PVP cause they lack to think ... i've seen 2-3 GF with 40k hp in pvp, and that's the build they should aim, but majority of gf run with 30hp , why? cause they don't think and come to forum and whine and from this devs starts to do their job as nerfing things...
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
Armor penetration and critical rate, is far more important than hp. These 40k HP GF cannot put a dent into a raw egg with their 5% crit and default arpen and are effectively useless in PvP while a decently specced GF is able to wreak havoc upon any opponent.
I just notice this: all non GWF players are happy with the change on unstoppable but all GWF players are not. So, DEVs, to who do you think you should listen?
As i said on my first post, most changes are really hard on GWFs. The mark change is fine.
The roar change is ludicrous, it should be a prone again but without CC inmunity piercing and Takedown MUST prone again cause these both powers are now useless due Tenacity. Is impossible to chain or, in case of Roar due all those short cast times, interrupt ANYTHING from these encounters yet HRs can do with graps, CWs can do it with choke [we will see how "funny" is to being hit by a choke + Ice knife combo or GF's Bull + indomitable combo]. The problem on Prones is not the "prone" itself, but the fact than prones do not applies Tenacity or, in case to GWFs, Steel Grace reductions and THIS is the issue devs must face: make prones affected/reduced by tenacity and Steel Grace
the problem of prones is that they prone! and on top of that there is no counter.
And this is good when a class has one with a cooldown of maybe 15 sec ( you know timing can be considered a counter action ) but stop to be good when you have 2 encounters (with ridicolous cooldown) that prone + 2 daily that do the same.
To the people saying takedown damage was ok...10-14k ? that was ok? on a 5.8 second encounter? that prones/stuns? you guys have a funny concept of balance.
Now let's suppose prones become stuns, subjected to tenacity as ALL CC SHOULD BE. You really complain to have 3 stuns? really?
" Is impossible to chain " oh i think that was the purpose but to me chain prones are now chain stuns (with tenacity).
Nothing is OP until there is a way (just one) to counter it. Airplanes arent OP in war until there are antiaircraft gun.
Now dont come saying "you pvpers always messing up in my ****s". Just because Ads cant write on forums or screaming OP OP OP doesnt mean is all working as intented.
they overdid with the unstoppable nerf tho. 15-25% would have been better.
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
All of this is spot on. Im with the game since it started, I play only fighters and I know the stages the GWF went tru. Currently my GWF is 17k, my GF is 15.2. Its pretty shocking to see my Destroyer easily climb to 31K HP with just 2 pieces of Grim Sentinel gear while losing almost nothing of his damage. If I was willing to give up some more crit and power ( As I have alot of both ) I could probably have a Destroyer with 40k HP who still can muster a reliable 20K+ crit with IBS, nice eh ?
The GF on the other hand has laughable +health on the profound/grim sets. Has useless crit rate ( even 3000 isnt enought to ensure reliable crits ). Has issues stacking ArmPen and if he manages to get 2000 crit/armpen and also wants recovery/regen/power he is pretty much stuck at low HP. Did I mention that his deflect is also low despite having more deflect rate than my GWF..
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
I've gone onto the preview shard to test out my Iron Vanguard/Destroyer GWF on IWD heroic encounters. My GWF is pvp focused but with what I consider to be my PvE setup here's where my stats are (plus my augment companion):
GS: 17.3k
power: 5.6k
crit: 693 (20.8 crit %, i use a normal PF)
arp: 2.2k
recovery: 2.9k
defense: 3.5k
deflect: 853
regen: 1.8k
life steal: 1.1k
i've got 2/4 instigator grim and 2/4 purified (greater corrupt BI overload chant) with purified main hand and off hand.
My regular pve rotation is IBS, frontline surge and roar for encounters, destroyer and weapon master for passives, savage advance and slam for dailies & sure strike and wicked strike for at-wills.
Minor encounters didn't seem to be any harder. Didn't have to use a pot to clear any out. Majors were noticably trickier, the drop in DR during unstoppable was obvious and even using pots and running around I wasn't as effective in clearing out 5-6 enemy mobs.
But someone in here mentioned daring shout as a way to get back some DR, so I switched in that for roar. With that an unstoppable popped, I seemed like my DR was close to back to where it was before. But going from 7 second roar cooldowns to 14 for daring shout hurt, and found myself being out of unstoppable too long if I timed the encounters wrong.
And so then I took out surge and went with IBS, roar and daring shout. With good timing I was very rarely ever out of IBS and even though that took my DPS down some my survivability improved quite a bit. That'd probably work well in a party and I could possibly even do some tanking with enough support from a DC.
So that's one way for destroyers to adjust to the unstoppable nerf, but that'd still reduce DPS and might not be much more DPS than a sentinel could pull off if it geared up offensively.
If they're to raise up the Unstoppable DR any, and I'm not sure yet if that's necessary, 12.5-25% would be pretty adequate. Then the last sentinel feat would double that to get back to 25-50%.
Im sure that droping 1 encounter for daring shout will not impact ur dps alot, usualy i see ppl using not so fast (and takedown) as their last optional slot, and not so fast dsnt have a very good damage.After module 3 patch gwfs are mainly single target dps then aoe dps, most of gwfs damage is IBS, and wicked/weapon master strike + daily. Im glad someone tryed daring shout cuz it is a very good power that destroyers totaly forgot. I realy doubt sentinel can come even close to destroyer, hes somwhere close to conq GFs. Its gona be fine it takes just a lil practice but destroyers will be FINE!
When my cleric end his dodges, he can walk out of red area. OMG I AM HACKER and I didn't know that until now!
Oh and I can see the movements of NPC's and be precautious. Thanks Ethraniev, you taught me how to play.
Sorry, i started read your post, i then though "which class is him?" i saw your sign and i just started to laugh. Pls, do not comment anymore about "prones" being you a TR with a 16 secs encounter which allows TRs to become inmune to all damage for 5 secs and which can be activated at same time than a hit which always crits and on top on that, a 16 CD encounter which stops anything inside its radious even with 25% Tenacity for 5 more secs... But, wait, better yet: lets quit the invulneravility from ItC and the stun from Screen... and the, maybe someone, not me, will listen to your complains about the prones on Takedown/FLS and Roar.
your answer to my argument is amazing. Is this the best you can put out?
just for the note: i dont have nothing to do anymore with my tr, so i rolled an hr and a gwf too. both rank 9.
NO I didnt forget these things. Trust me im not just QQing about a nerf to a class, I have been an advocate of many things to my own classes.
The big issue I see - from someone who has played both sides - is that GWFs HEAVILY rely on ranged stuns/prones to just CATCH a target.
They rely HEAVILY on unstoppable to survive while other classes just kite them around.
you just removed BOTH of those features. Basically Destroyer is unplayable because of how squishy it is. Honestly 5-10% DR? basically its a GWF without unstoppable - see how fast they die.
So for Sentinels... Ok they keep unstoppable, takedown got a massive damage nerf, FLS got a massive prone nerf, they already had their teeth taken from them module 3.... So they do what now? Contest a node? Well they still arent HALF the contester the TR is, and I have a feeling a GF will hop over the GWF now for the #2 slot here as well if specced right.
Like I said... people complain about the damage a Destroyer can do, fine, nerf the damage. But if they cant DODGE hits, and now cant TAKE hits... what good are they in pvp?
If a Sentinel cant catch anything via prones and cant deal damage even when they can catch someone, what good are they in pvp?
I see TR becoming back as "top dog" due to perma TR cheese and HRs right behind them with all these actual buffs to the class... GFs seem like they may be VIABLE but its yet to be seen.
To early to tell, but I think the GWF community has gotten so used to using Unstoppable as a crutch and not using ( needing) to use their other abilities as intended... I think now GWfs will have some weaknesses, and need to play much more tactful then the Smash Unstoppable kill everyone, sprint away style we have now.
GWF will need to use unstoppable as a defensive tactic now instead of just using it to be offensive, they will also have to better use their other abilities and encounters rather then just all burst abilities.
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
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brynicstormbornMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 41
edited June 2014
This is without most of my enchantments slotted. Full pic here:
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.
And you dare to say so with a HR on your rooster??? ROFL!!!! you are very funny, and thx for your time, but here are discussing about serious stuff, pls, go to the HRs post and preach there to nerf the Medicine T3 Feat.
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.[/QUOTE]
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Even before the Deep Gash nerf, any CW worth their slot in an instance would deal 2x-3x the damage my 17k GS Sentinel would - again, I was using the bugged Deep Gash which was a HUGE damage boost. The fact you can come in second doesnt surprise me at all, heck you could come in first, it just means your probably not running with a good group.
Another thing, this is about Destroyers not Sentinels and a MAJOR reason most of these are getting changes is PVP. Go try a Destroyer GWF in PVP with only 5-10% DR boost on unstoppable... Its a joke.
Not only will you never catch anyone TO be able to hit them, you wont deal any damage as Sentinel and wont survive at all as Destroyer.
Now, currently on live, Roar needed a fix, and sure Unstoppable Recovery Feat needed to respect healing depression. Heck I dont even mind the threat rush nerf.
But NOW, there are TOO many nerfs. It needs to go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Bring Unstoppable back to to sya 15-30%, then you can leave the nerf to prone effects, but LEAVE takedown damage as is on live - there is no need for this when the stun is getting nerfed.
2) Keep Unstoppable low %, but bring back the control on takedown/frontline AND Roar. If a GWF cant survive in battle, they need to control targets better.
If you do #2 your basically taking the GWf and turning them MORE into a CW, so I am more in favor of #1. I dont mind having a hard time chasing people around and dealing good damage. The fact of the matter is though, most classes have plenty of "dodges" or "teleports" to escape not only you, but your encounters. This is why everyone uses prone/cc abilities because dodge in this game completely negates attacks and puts things on CD.
For that reason, the nerf to Unstoppable PLUS the removal of controls, make the GWF a dead class in PVP (Destoryers) and nobody wants to play a Sentinel in PVP because they deal zero damage - especially now that prones are removed, which the only reason Sentinels could deal semi-decent damage was via "mark" and dealing 15% more to market targets.
If you cant control someone, and makr is removed upon them attacking you, how will you get the benefits in pvp of "powerful challenge" if you can never keep a mark up?
Comments
Exactly. I also don't get it why the core mechanism of the class gets changed. Also this is the first case where it is depending on the choices you make. Very, very bad.
Looking at the leader board the GWF isn't as dominating as claimed by the devs. Now it will be either easy to kill or will not be able to kill others.
Well, it is not about being able to stand still all the time. You have to know when you can do it and when you'd better run.
You need to get a feel for the amount of damage you can take to get unstoppable and you'll be able to heal while being unstoppable and doing damage. This is part of the fun playing the GWF (this is my subjective opinion). If I'd prefer to always run from any red area I'd play a TR/CW/DC/HR... which btw. I also do.
With the chances you'd either have to run far too often for being efficient (you can't deal damage while running) or you'll deal way too less damage to be able to heal yourself (when choosing the Sentinel path). Also running is not always an option because you may somehow get "stuck". May be a bug. Doesn't matter though, the problem exists. Thing is you try to run away, the system doesn't let you get away. You get hit.
IMHO a GWF with a GS of 17k and more and Life Steal of 14% should be able to easily do most of the solo content. He also shouldn't get easily in trouble in dungeons, especially if the dungeon is rated for a much lower GS.
A bit? You must be kidding! 10% is not noticeable. It may be measured but you will not be able to notice it. Thus unstoppable was actually taken away from all GWFs of level 50 and lower who do not want to go Sentinel (I might be wrong with the level).
While unstoppable still gives CC immunity it doesn't help. It's damage that gets you killed. Not any prones, stuns, roots, etc.
The GF is worse than the GWF. I play both and don't deny that. But it is the wrong approach trying to fix a class by nerfing other classes.
It does not help anyone playing a GF in PvE or PvP when the GWF's Unstoppable gets nerfed. In solo PvE play other classes just do not matter. In group PvE it hurts the Group. Everything will just take longer. In PvP the GF is just to weak against most of the classes. Therefore nerfing one class will not make much of a difference for him.
Absolutely. The bonus from Unstoppable must be high enough to be noticeable. You cannot notice a difference of 10%. There's just too much randomness when damage is calculated. Therefore the bonus must be large. I even doubt that 30% is enough and would suggest 40% - if lowering it at all.
As said GWFs die in dungeons with the current system. The change will make it worse. I tried it.
Thats what GWF's are going to become now. rogues with big weapons that cant dodge or stealth.
GWF's dont just die in dungeons with these changes. They die in everything. Unstoppable is thier only sort of mitigation they have.
I couldn't agree more. I also doubt that the differences in PvP (and this is a PvP change) are that huge to justify removing Unstoppable for all but Sentinel builds (10% doesn't make a noticeable difference and is like not having it at all). The leader board clearly shows that GWFs are not dominating. It is just not true. They are on par with HRs and TRs.
Well, seems like you don't understand the differences between the classes and how they can avoid damage.
CWs, DCs, HRs, and TRs can dodge attacks and take no damage. GFs can block and take no damage. GWFs cannot do this. They need to rely on unstoppable to do it. Also, they still take damage when unstoppable. Running away doesn't help because more often than not you get stuck and can't get away, or you take damage nevertheless.
My guess is you never played a GWF and don't know what you're talking about. There are lots of GWFs dying like flies during dungeon runs. I've been there and have seen it.
Sometimes it just doesn't work. The GWF somehow gets stuck and can't get away. It may be a bug. Also sometimes you still get damaged after leaving a red zone.
Doesn't Change one thing though. Sprint is no dodge.
Lets go to the Pass then. I've been there with my two characters, both fighters. My GWF who is a 17K Destroyer can solo a Totem on live with good footwork, Avalance of Steel and some pots. My 15.2K GF cannot. On Preview the GF fails much harder then on Live so the only outcome from the dev's "rebalancing" is that the GWF now also fails.
But wait I get your message devs. You're telling me "spend more of your precious time and money, grind away and get your GWF to 18-19K, then you'll be able to do what you can do now even with the scrapped unstoppable". I have my answer to that but since your forums are PG-13 I'll stick to visual aid..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Nonsense. You may be able to do this with a high end GWF having 18k GS and massive amounts of Life Steal - and only in some dungeons.
IMHO it is ok that a high end GWF can do this (in some dungeons). If there was hardly any difference between a 18k GWF and a 10k GWF in a 9k GS dungeon where's the point in increasing stats?
Also think about the low GS GWF players. They will have a hard time doing any dungeons because they will die more often and will get frustrated.
I feel that the Unstoppable change will hurt leveling GWFs and low GS GWFs to a point where they might not want to play the class (or the game) any longer. I'm playing a GWF for a year now and know how it feels to constantly die in dungeons. Has this been considered by the devs?
It does not reduce any damage at all, can't even notice. It seems like the DESTROYER should be renamed to Big Chicken from now on.
Devs, if you listen. Please change Unstoppable back to where it was for PVE or at least 15-35% minimum. You can have it at 5-10% for PVP is you wish.
You have simply killed the class, as the GWF is not going to be useful as he has. He will be running and hiding where the TR's will perform a better job by the looks of it now. Unstoppable needs to be reworked and the damage should not be changed in any way for the GWF as you need to build it anyway which makes it now so much harder as you need to maintain it and build it by having petty much no Unstoppable at all. Just a Big Balloon GWF
Now thats just ridiculous on the other end of the ridiculous scale.
GWF changes. This is what needs to happen. Roll back everything, and apply this.
Roar stopped from going through CC immunity.
Prones should respect CC resist and tenacity
Sentinel gwf's instead should get increased damage resistances in unstoppable but a decrease in damage by at most 15% while in unstoppable
Takedown's damage was fine, always has been. Having prone respect cc resist and tenacity is enough.
Mark changes are fine.
Threatening rush should fully recharge after 9 seconds regardless of how many charges are left.
GWF's have been fine and balanced up until they got iron vanguard.It was in the most balanced state GWF's have ever been (minutes the bug feats at the time) before that they were fine, and the reason being is because prone locking. But this wouldnt even be an issue if prones respected CC resist like every other CC effect in the game.
Thats all. Its really not that hard to figure that out for this class. Its simple, to the point, and doesnt rearrange the entire class and keeps them relevant and barely much different than how people play them now, leaving all the options and playstyles and builds still open without making GWF's non-stealth, non dodging rogues.
Edit: I cant get on preview right now, but can someone check on Roar. Does it just put a skill on cooldown when interrupted or does it just daze targets like interrupting shot does?
Nope. One of my guildies is a 17k GWF with 1300 Life Steal and I see him doing it regularly in dungeons like Spellplague and Karrundax.
If you think 1300 is massive then you´re right, but I don´t think it is (I have a similar amount on my HR, 1260 actually, and are not obsessively stacking it).
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Isnt it great that some dungeons will be very hard to complete and only the most skilled will be able to do it? Thats what this game is missing. Every dungeon can be walked trough with current setup (cws, gwfs).. Current way is just pure farming, and where is fun in farm? The most epic moments i had in PVE is whn i was ungeared newbie when every t2 dung was a big challenge..
These GWF's whose gearscores are in 15k+ dont even NEED to do these dungeons. They're far passed the dungeon requirements already. These dungeons are the same ones from a year ago when the highest gearscores were just pushing 12k. If a GWF at GS 15k cant farm a these dungeons and breeze through them in a party. Thats a prime fundamental problem.
Problem here is; GFs may not be able to sustain their own increase in threat because their new guard is as flawed as the current one and aside from a slight HP buff their survivability has been left unchanged, and as it currently stands, the Live Server GWF is the tankier class. The GF on Preview will not be able to ''baby sit'' a GWF because he himself is flawed.
the class is OP -> nerf them -> making op again -> nerf it again... that's what happend with gwf so far, but no worries you guys can make good balance, if the devs play this game... dont know why you need to nerf so much from gwf, the Roar would be enough, and like i said a gwf can stil be killed by CW/HR/TR ... so why wold you nerf the unstopable? i as a 17k gs pvp gwf will get my *** whopped from 2 players with 12gs ? i don't think it's fair..
"The stupidest whine ever" comment cost you your rebuttal. - Ambisinisterr
That was me and I am not talking about PVP, I am talking about PVE.
I have a 14.3k Conqueror GF and a 14.7k Destroyer GWF. My GWF is tankier than my GF. I know first hand how much better the GWF is at surviving. For a Valindra boss fight my Destroyer has 37% DR and 30% deflection, plus Unstoppable (25 - 50% DR) plus 10% Life Steal plus Restoring Strike. By comparison my GF has 45% DR, 21% deflection, a weak shield, 5% Life Steal and a daily to recover health. And because a GF does less damage and hits slower than a GWF, Life Steal does not work as well on him.
As for PVP, GWFs are indeed tankier. Again GWFs get more deflection % plus Unstoppable plus they can stack more HP without losing offense. Only the highest geared GF can reach 40k and still have decent DPS while it is so much easier on a GWF to stack HP and maintain good damage. Again I know this. My PVE GWF can reach 32k HP for PVP, same as my GF, and he can do more damage than my GF.
And it isn't an unfounded whine. I've played this game for 10-months and have both a GF and GWF.
the problem of prones is that they prone! and on top of that there is no counter.
And this is good when a class has one with a cooldown of maybe 15 sec ( you know timing can be considered a counter action ) but stop to be good when you have 2 encounters (with ridicolous cooldown) that prone + 2 daily that do the same.
To the people saying takedown damage was ok...10-14k ? that was ok? on a 5.8 second encounter? that prones/stuns? you guys have a funny concept of balance.
Now let's suppose prones become stuns, subjected to tenacity as ALL CC SHOULD BE. You really complain to have 3 stuns? really?
" Is impossible to chain " oh i think that was the purpose but to me chain prones are now chain stuns (with tenacity).
Nothing is OP until there is a way (just one) to counter it. Airplanes arent OP in war until there are antiaircraft gun.
Now dont come saying "you pvpers always messing up in my ****s". Just because Ads cant write on forums or screaming OP OP OP doesnt mean is all working as intented.
they overdid with the unstoppable nerf tho. 15-25% would have been better.
All of this is spot on. Im with the game since it started, I play only fighters and I know the stages the GWF went tru. Currently my GWF is 17k, my GF is 15.2. Its pretty shocking to see my Destroyer easily climb to 31K HP with just 2 pieces of Grim Sentinel gear while losing almost nothing of his damage. If I was willing to give up some more crit and power ( As I have alot of both ) I could probably have a Destroyer with 40k HP who still can muster a reliable 20K+ crit with IBS, nice eh ?
The GF on the other hand has laughable +health on the profound/grim sets. Has useless crit rate ( even 3000 isnt enought to ensure reliable crits ). Has issues stacking ArmPen and if he manages to get 2000 crit/armpen and also wants recovery/regen/power he is pretty much stuck at low HP. Did I mention that his deflect is also low despite having more deflect rate than my GWF..
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Im sure that droping 1 encounter for daring shout will not impact ur dps alot, usualy i see ppl using not so fast (and takedown) as their last optional slot, and not so fast dsnt have a very good damage.After module 3 patch gwfs are mainly single target dps then aoe dps, most of gwfs damage is IBS, and wicked/weapon master strike + daily. Im glad someone tryed daring shout cuz it is a very good power that destroyers totaly forgot. I realy doubt sentinel can come even close to destroyer, hes somwhere close to conq GFs. Its gona be fine it takes just a lil practice but destroyers will be FINE!
Oh and I can see the movements of NPC's and be precautious. Thanks Ethraniev, you taught me how to play.
your answer to my argument is amazing. Is this the best you can put out?
just for the note: i dont have nothing to do anymore with my tr, so i rolled an hr and a gwf too. both rank 9.
To early to tell, but I think the GWF community has gotten so used to using Unstoppable as a crutch and not using ( needing) to use their other abilities as intended... I think now GWfs will have some weaknesses, and need to play much more tactful then the Smash Unstoppable kill everyone, sprint away style we have now.
GWF will need to use unstoppable as a defensive tactic now instead of just using it to be offensive, they will also have to better use their other abilities and encounters rather then just all burst abilities.
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
This is without most of my enchantments slotted. Full pic here:
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.
another awesome arguments are being pulled off.
- B
P.S. - This is a GWF with about 15k gear score fully slotted. Sentinel build. I do enough DPS to come second on the damage chart in most dungeons, and I'll be keeping my unstoppable. I still feel like GWF is overpowered, even with the changes for ToD.[/QUOTE]
People like this really need to stop posting mis-information here, especially SS of your character with weapon master stacks up.
Even before the Deep Gash nerf, any CW worth their slot in an instance would deal 2x-3x the damage my 17k GS Sentinel would - again, I was using the bugged Deep Gash which was a HUGE damage boost. The fact you can come in second doesnt surprise me at all, heck you could come in first, it just means your probably not running with a good group.
Another thing, this is about Destroyers not Sentinels and a MAJOR reason most of these are getting changes is PVP. Go try a Destroyer GWF in PVP with only 5-10% DR boost on unstoppable... Its a joke.
Not only will you never catch anyone TO be able to hit them, you wont deal any damage as Sentinel and wont survive at all as Destroyer.
Now, currently on live, Roar needed a fix, and sure Unstoppable Recovery Feat needed to respect healing depression. Heck I dont even mind the threat rush nerf.
But NOW, there are TOO many nerfs. It needs to go 1 of 2 ways:
1) Bring Unstoppable back to to sya 15-30%, then you can leave the nerf to prone effects, but LEAVE takedown damage as is on live - there is no need for this when the stun is getting nerfed.
2) Keep Unstoppable low %, but bring back the control on takedown/frontline AND Roar. If a GWF cant survive in battle, they need to control targets better.
If you do #2 your basically taking the GWf and turning them MORE into a CW, so I am more in favor of #1. I dont mind having a hard time chasing people around and dealing good damage. The fact of the matter is though, most classes have plenty of "dodges" or "teleports" to escape not only you, but your encounters. This is why everyone uses prone/cc abilities because dodge in this game completely negates attacks and puts things on CD.
For that reason, the nerf to Unstoppable PLUS the removal of controls, make the GWF a dead class in PVP (Destoryers) and nobody wants to play a Sentinel in PVP because they deal zero damage - especially now that prones are removed, which the only reason Sentinels could deal semi-decent damage was via "mark" and dealing 15% more to market targets.
If you cant control someone, and makr is removed upon them attacking you, how will you get the benefits in pvp of "powerful challenge" if you can never keep a mark up?