I went Oppressor aaaaand.... where's that increased control that can help the party?
-Severe Reaction: spreads enemies and that doesn't help anyone (maybe in PvP)
-Bitter Cold: more dps for control tree?
-Brisk Transport: so run faster because....?
-Twisting Immolation: great one, FI with it is almost as good as Oppresive Force in terms of control and better with gathering mobs in one place
-Cold Infusion: errrr... I'm confused with this one, does it work as long as chill is applied (so basically each 10 seconds when player applies chill its refreshed) or it works only with first stack?
-Glacial Movement: So with all adds around I can only apply additional stack of chill with ray of frost? Guess this one is for PvP mainly
-Alacrity: soooo... how much "chance" do I have here? (not to mention bonus CD it gives which is poor in terms of time and powers affected)
-Controlled Momentum: more dps for my party.... yaaaaaaay.... ok sarcasm off, one thing needs to be cleared here: Which are control powers exactly?
-Shatter Strike: greatest change of all... (no sarcasm in here actually, I love this one)
With 9 feats from "control" feat tree only 2 are actually useful control buffs for PvE; one is PvP control feat (single target), three are self buffs (stamina regen, speed buff, repel attackers, reduced cooldowns) and three enemy debuffs, party buffs (damage de/buffs)...
Soooo... from 9 feats I really want only 2...
This tells me pretty much everything that the experienced Control Wizards knew all along....
Cryptic WANTS to make a NON DAMAGING control class.... but the CW is not, and never was designed as a pure controller in the first place, Not in that way.... It goes by the D&D standard and was built by the D&D standard Wizard, where AoE damage means control.
In a nutshell the reason it keeps failing over and over at what some people want it to be, is that in order to GET what they want.. (ie.. more control in their terminology... )
Cryptic will have to design a whole new class that IS a control by placement or control by AoE mez/Stun...
This class.... with the way it was designed.... is not and never was capable of that... They will have to design a whole new class...
....because they will only fail over and over trying to make the CW one... and end up breaking the class entirely in the end.
0
adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Dear Cryptic, if you really want this test shard and the feedback by the players, then take them serious.
Better introduce small changes if you feel that they have to be done at all (nerfs AND buffs) instead of changing the entire class with this large bundle. Many players build their toons around a certain playstile and invested alot time and AD into it to make it work. If that all doesnt work anymore, this is really not good...
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I just hope this thread is combed thoroughly and the CW community base speaks up.
They didn't care what the gwfs thought, they didn't care what the trs thought and they didn't care about what the hrs thought. The purpose of the early access is bug testing. These guys literally thought running a debuff cw in post tenacity pvp was a legit smart move. I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Most PvP battles and even a few boss battles don't even LAST 90 seconds, let alone making a **** Class feature have that kind of cooldown. It's blasphemy
i only saw the gwf fight and obviously chil strike and ice knife are a joke now with their long cast time (chill strik was already long enough),
devs you destroyed us in pvp! no one like to play a class that atack in slow motions.
There sure is a lot of crying on here about the change to Eye of the Storm. Did I miss out on something here? I never put points on that class feature. I also have never felt as though I was at a disadvantage because of it. Can someone explain to me what this nerf is changing that is detrimental to the class?
There sure is a lot of crying on here about the change to Eye of the Storm. Did I miss out on something here? I never put points on that class feature. I also have never felt as though I was at a disadvantage because of it. Can someone explain to me what this nerf is changing that is detrimental to the class?
learn to read patch notes/test for yourself or go back to the class you are playing now ,( i guess not a cw ) , before you come write this kind of comment .
PS : people who don't play wizards but play with them and think they know the mage gameplay please stay away from this post and keep your comments for yourself , someone didn't play for ages and now claim he know things , another one play a rogue and think the changes are good , please stop it ok ? !
You need to put bugs in red and suggested changes in cyan the developer uses this system so he can easily read feedback without having to trawl through pages of comments and stuff, just a heads up.
learn to read patch notes/test for yourself or go back to the class you are playing now ,( i guess not a cw ) , before you come write this kind of comment .
PS : people who don't play wizards but play with them and think they know the mage gameplay please stay away from this post and keep your comments for yourself , someone didn't play for ages and now claim he know things , another one play a rogue and think the changes are good , please stop it ok ? !
I'm an active level 60 CW, 12.3kGS. I just don't see what the big issue is. Currently it has a 5% chance to crit on all attacks for 4 seconds. I'll take a 10% chance to shock on all attacks from Storm Spell any day. I have plenty of crit loaded up to not need Eye of the Storm. So now it has a cooldown of 90 seconds. How often can it be used in that time now, and how often, really, is 5%?
And, honestly, after reading the first few pages on the thread with similar feedback regarding that class feature, I just jumped to the end to ask a question because I didn't want to read through 10 more pages of the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
These nerfs are, in general and as a whole, a bad thing for this class. I've tested on the preview shard and I just can't see myself being viable in dungeons and PVP with the changes upcoming.
People left when module 3 came out. Many hr's I knew, obviously people have worked around it and hr's are still pretty OP in pvp. The module is still alittle way's off. I can't see where these changes came from. Obviously not from the players. I would just make one request, in module can there at least be some way to transfer your artifacts? Maybe make them bound(account). I can give up on the cw, I have had him since the beginning, but the idea leveling my artifacts all over again on another character. I can't even consider that an option. And I really do like the game, I could never level another toons artifacts to legendary again, I have 2 legendary and and 87. If these changes do come to pass, and we are as useless as we are on the test server at least give us that option, I've never thought of quitting never winter, and I'm still not, but to start from scratch on a new character, I don't think I could do it
I'm an active level 60 CW, 12.3kGS. I just don't see what the big issue is. Currently it has a 5% chance to crit on all attacks for 4 seconds. I'll take a 10% chance to shock on all attacks from Storm Spell any day. I have plenty of crit loaded up to not need Eye of the Storm. So now it has a cooldown of 90 seconds. How often can it be used in that time now, and how often, really, is 5%?
The big deal is that it isn't a case of either one or the other , most spellstorms have both EotS and Storm spell slotted , as for how often it procs ,it procs a lot more often that you would think with a 5% chance ,at the moment it probably procs at least 2 or 3 times in a 90 second window , this nerf gives it a icd of 90 seconds , go to trade of blades and try it yourself.
The big deal is that it isn't a case of either one or the other , most spellstorms have both EotS and Storm spell slotted , as for how often it procs ,it procs a lot more often that you would think with a 5% chance ,at the moment it probably procs at least 2 or 3 times in a 90 second window , this nerf gives it a icd of 90 seconds , go to trade of blades and try it yourself.
Thank you for not being snarky in your reply. I honestly had never thought about slotting it because I was so crit heavy on items and enchants that I didn't need it. I was considering it as I was getting extra power points after 60, but this is stemming that consideration. I'll check it EotS out on the preview shard, but I'm not going to respec my CW on live shard just to see the 5% proc time, but I must agree that procing 2-3 times down to exactly 1 in a 90 second window is just plain fubar.
Many of my cw friends, including me, are on the edge to deinstall the game, because that is too much.
We only had our PVE dmg, because PVP we are nothing compared to other classes.
As some videos and tests here show, we will be useless in pvp (same as now)...
You want to see pve partys not only dominated from gwfs and cws, then make the other classes better for pve.
If you want to make it fair and balanced, this will not be the solution.
Tests showed here, that we will losse 2/3 of our dmg, so if i do 9kk, i will do only 3kk.
Our already slow skills (animation) are now slower too, i just cant understand it.
We have zero survivability, no def, slow on the feet, low HP, now capped dmg and control skills and more cooldown and animation times.
Give us at least the chance to transfer our items (artifacts etc) to another char, because you are killing the cw, so RIP.
I dont want to talk or whine about TR perma stealth or HR healing etc. Just show us a way to transfer our important items, because they are useless on a dead class.
Yes CWs do a lot of dmg in pve, that is true and i understand to cut them down a bit, but that is to much imho.
Like told earlier, look how many cws are in the pvp ranking form 1-400, compare with other classes, that tells the truth.
That is not, because there are no cw players or they havent spent enough money/time etc in the class, that is, because the devs programmed the cw in this way, so we couldnt do much against other classes, we are like small flies.
There has do be done something to solve that issue, if you want to be fair, than pls balance it better.
Sry for my english, i am from germany.
No worries man , I'm not going to start losing my head over these proposed changes just yet , we have at least 6 or 7 probable patches on preview coming before this stuff hits live so I doubt that the final version of the nerfs will be quite as cutting as they are now.
No worries man , I'm not going to start losing my head over these proposed changes just yet , we have at least 6 or 7 probable patches on preview coming before this stuff hits live so I doubt that the final version of the nerfs will be quite as cutting as they are now.
I agree. PWE is simply giving us the whole enchilada to see how much we can digest. How much is still left on the plate is far from being decided.
0
trollobMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2014
You just had to fix Eye of the storm proc and problem solved. Waste of time programming when you could do changes in other areas.
you don't think CW needed a change in PVE? considering the damage they were doing?
I honestly don't think that they need a change in PVE. GWFs always outdamaged me in dungeons anyway. If you think about it you could figure out, that it would be better to enhence TR performence in dungeons then to nerf other classes to the point where they are as usless as TR. I mean come on, its a wizzard, a mage. He is supposed to be a freakin nuker. Now its neighter Control nor Wizzard. Mod 4 LFG chat will look like - GWF 16k+ LF4M GWF/GWF/DC/DC AoW set only!!!
0
hexanna22Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 204Bounty Hunter
you don't think CW needed a change in PVE? considering the damage they were doing?
I guess I really don't understand this. In every DnD based mmo I've played, classes have their jobs in Dungeons, it doesn't matter who does the most DPS or has the most kills. I mean usually a tank will intimidate all the mobs( get aggro) and hold the aggro while the Mages kill them, while the specialty classes take out dangerous single targets or work on boss. It is just a Mages job to kill things.
Perhaps they just need to get rid of that little Dungeon board?
And also it is the design of these Dungeons themselves...Think about how you run these Dungeons and deal with the millions of adds. Of course classes taking advantage of AOE attacks are going to be on top, I also know HRS that are usually on top in DPS--because of build, encounter choices and GEAR. Its kind of funny cuz I always hear my friends talk about how the CW in group was 4th or 5th in DPS....not all CWs are walking around with 9K Power.
I could see changing some things like EOTS, but not ALL things. It guts CW.
There sure is a lot of crying on here about the change to Eye of the Storm. Did I miss out on something here? I never put points on that class feature. I also have never felt as though I was at a disadvantage because of it. Can someone explain to me what this nerf is changing that is detrimental to the class?
Yes. You have missed the best passive in the game. EoTS has 15% chance to proc at rank 3 (5% is only rank 1). Furthermore, every single tick of damage from Conduit of Ice has a 15% chance, and steal time has three 15% chances to proc it per target. Basically if you led with CoI and Steal time you have a darn near 100% chance of EoTS procing giving you four seconds of guaranteed crits - enough time to blast everything with Sudden Storm and shard of Avalanche. A good player can have EoTS up in combat over 50% of the time. Combining that with your base chance to crit and a CW can have 60-70% crit percentage through a dungeon. Also you can ensure that you have 100% crit chance on all daily's. Just hold on to it for a few seconds until EoTS procs then unleash it.
It was massively, hugely, unbelievably overpowered and needed a nerf. However, a 90 second timer is going so far the other way that it renders the ability mostly useless.
if all the classes had their role in NW, then why most groups in LFG are made of CW/GWF? why no one wants GF/TR/and many times HR too?
because just those 2 classes can serg through dungeons without caring about anything else. CWs recover 100% hearlth with lifesteal and GWF don't care about damage with unstoppable, the devs want to balance that, so all classes are equally required.
I think the idea is that dungeons should be taken 1 enemy group at a time, what we have now is groups of CW and GWF gathering all the mobs in a room and then nuking all of them at once, and making dungeons last around 10 mins. I don't think that's what the devs had in mind when designing them.
CW's are easily the most OP class in the game on Preview right now (IN PVP AT LEAST). I am in the process of getting some videos approved for posting so that we can show you guys, and the Devs.
Its quite bad, nothing has a chance 1v1 CW. I know many of you do not see it this way but please, stay tuned I am very hopeful that Akromatic will allow me to post a few clips of 1v1's against CW and you will be convinced.
CW's are easily the most OP class in the game on Preview right now. I am in the process of getting some videos approved for posting so that we can show you guys, and the Devs.
Its quite bad, nothing has a chance 1v1 CW. I know many of you do not see it this way but please, stay tuned I am very hopeful that Akromatic will allow me to post a few clips of 1v1's against CW and you will be convinced.
If your thinking of the perma-freeze oppressor don't waste your time versus a HR or GWF. Although I can still kill them more times they will kill me, it's very difficult because GWF can reset chill stacks almost every time and then shatter wont take effect. HRs they literally heal more then take damage now since that new feat medicine, so the dot freeze build doesn't work with them unless you have 2 high damage encounters to take away chunks at a time while you keep them frozen
CW's are easily the most OP class in the game on Preview right now. I am in the process of getting some videos approved for posting so that we can show you guys, and the Devs.
Great, post videos of Castle Never if you can. Will be really fun to see the new op cw with sungu taking 8 mobs at Castle Never, im sure will be convincing for everyone.
Always, someone,
somewhere is fighting for you.
0
notsosneaky69Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
CW's are easily the most OP class in the game on Preview right now. I am in the process of getting some videos approved for posting so that we can show you guys, and the Devs.
Its quite bad, nothing has a chance 1v1 CW. I know many of you do not see it this way but please, stay tuned I am very hopeful that Akromatic will allow me to post a few clips of 1v1's against CW and you will be convinced.
And in every "proof" video, the opponent seems to be playing in slow motion, doing 1 attack every 5 seconds. Never seen PVP done like that. Besides, what's the GS of the 2 people fighting? Please record the inspect as well. And no, I don't trust people. Cause people lie to get what they want, always have, always will. Most players in this game are PVE, not PVP. PVP has a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of factors to count in. It's not just class, it's enchants and gear. And saying nothing has a chance? I keep seeing CWs on the test server getting killed in PVP 1v1. With the CW having higher GS than whatever it is fighting...
It's about spec, gear, enchants. It's not the class itself. And comparing classes is a lot harder than looking at recorded PVP fights. For one, cause not once in those videos does the recorder go into inspect on the 2 fighting and show their GS. Video has 0 value as proof. For all we know, the opponent can be anywhere up to 5k lower in GS.
Comments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV3QC6M_PSk&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKePK9sSelY&feature=youtu.be
Me fighting a friend. CW Vs HR (wow..)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZqxVS644to&feature=youtu.be
This tells me pretty much everything that the experienced Control Wizards knew all along....
Cryptic WANTS to make a NON DAMAGING control class.... but the CW is not, and never was designed as a pure controller in the first place, Not in that way.... It goes by the D&D standard and was built by the D&D standard Wizard, where AoE damage means control.
In a nutshell the reason it keeps failing over and over at what some people want it to be, is that in order to GET what they want.. (ie.. more control in their terminology... )
Cryptic will have to design a whole new class that IS a control by placement or control by AoE mez/Stun...
This class.... with the way it was designed.... is not and never was capable of that... They will have to design a whole new class...
....because they will only fail over and over trying to make the CW one... and end up breaking the class entirely in the end.
Better introduce small changes if you feel that they have to be done at all (nerfs AND buffs) instead of changing the entire class with this large bundle. Many players build their toons around a certain playstile and invested alot time and AD into it to make it work. If that all doesnt work anymore, this is really not good...
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
They didn't care what the gwfs thought, they didn't care what the trs thought and they didn't care about what the hrs thought. The purpose of the early access is bug testing. These guys literally thought running a debuff cw in post tenacity pvp was a legit smart move. I wouldn't get my hopes up.
And his damage is so low!
He can troll him with freezing but never finish the HR off.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZqxVS644to&feature=youtu.be
What about that?
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
i only saw the gwf fight and obviously chil strike and ice knife are a joke now with their long cast time (chill strik was already long enough),
devs you destroyed us in pvp! no one like to play a class that atack in slow motions.
learn to read patch notes/test for yourself or go back to the class you are playing now ,( i guess not a cw ) , before you come write this kind of comment .
PS : people who don't play wizards but play with them and think they know the mage gameplay please stay away from this post and keep your comments for yourself , someone didn't play for ages and now claim he know things , another one play a rogue and think the changes are good , please stop it ok ? !
You need to put bugs in red and suggested changes in cyan the developer uses this system so he can easily read feedback without having to trawl through pages of comments and stuff, just a heads up.
I'm an active level 60 CW, 12.3kGS. I just don't see what the big issue is. Currently it has a 5% chance to crit on all attacks for 4 seconds. I'll take a 10% chance to shock on all attacks from Storm Spell any day. I have plenty of crit loaded up to not need Eye of the Storm. So now it has a cooldown of 90 seconds. How often can it be used in that time now, and how often, really, is 5%?
And, honestly, after reading the first few pages on the thread with similar feedback regarding that class feature, I just jumped to the end to ask a question because I didn't want to read through 10 more pages of the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
These nerfs are, in general and as a whole, a bad thing for this class. I've tested on the preview shard and I just can't see myself being viable in dungeons and PVP with the changes upcoming.
The big deal is that it isn't a case of either one or the other , most spellstorms have both EotS and Storm spell slotted , as for how often it procs ,it procs a lot more often that you would think with a 5% chance ,at the moment it probably procs at least 2 or 3 times in a 90 second window , this nerf gives it a icd of 90 seconds , go to trade of blades and try it yourself.
Thank you for not being snarky in your reply. I honestly had never thought about slotting it because I was so crit heavy on items and enchants that I didn't need it. I was considering it as I was getting extra power points after 60, but this is stemming that consideration. I'll check it EotS out on the preview shard, but I'm not going to respec my CW on live shard just to see the 5% proc time, but I must agree that procing 2-3 times down to exactly 1 in a 90 second window is just plain fubar.
We only had our PVE dmg, because PVP we are nothing compared to other classes.
As some videos and tests here show, we will be useless in pvp (same as now)...
You want to see pve partys not only dominated from gwfs and cws, then make the other classes better for pve.
If you want to make it fair and balanced, this will not be the solution.
Tests showed here, that we will losse 2/3 of our dmg, so if i do 9kk, i will do only 3kk.
Our already slow skills (animation) are now slower too, i just cant understand it.
We have zero survivability, no def, slow on the feet, low HP, now capped dmg and control skills and more cooldown and animation times.
Give us at least the chance to transfer our items (artifacts etc) to another char, because you are killing the cw, so RIP.
I dont want to talk or whine about TR perma stealth or HR healing etc. Just show us a way to transfer our important items, because they are useless on a dead class.
Yes CWs do a lot of dmg in pve, that is true and i understand to cut them down a bit, but that is to much imho.
Like told earlier, look how many cws are in the pvp ranking form 1-400, compare with other classes, that tells the truth.
That is not, because there are no cw players or they havent spent enough money/time etc in the class, that is, because the devs programmed the cw in this way, so we couldnt do much against other classes, we are like small flies.
There has do be done something to solve that issue, if you want to be fair, than pls balance it better.
Sry for my english, i am from germany.
No worries man , I'm not going to start losing my head over these proposed changes just yet , we have at least 6 or 7 probable patches on preview coming before this stuff hits live so I doubt that the final version of the nerfs will be quite as cutting as they are now.
I agree. PWE is simply giving us the whole enchilada to see how much we can digest. How much is still left on the plate is far from being decided.
I honestly don't think that they need a change in PVE. GWFs always outdamaged me in dungeons anyway. If you think about it you could figure out, that it would be better to enhence TR performence in dungeons then to nerf other classes to the point where they are as usless as TR. I mean come on, its a wizzard, a mage. He is supposed to be a freakin nuker. Now its neighter Control nor Wizzard. Mod 4 LFG chat will look like - GWF 16k+ LF4M GWF/GWF/DC/DC AoW set only!!!
I guess I really don't understand this. In every DnD based mmo I've played, classes have their jobs in Dungeons, it doesn't matter who does the most DPS or has the most kills. I mean usually a tank will intimidate all the mobs( get aggro) and hold the aggro while the Mages kill them, while the specialty classes take out dangerous single targets or work on boss. It is just a Mages job to kill things.
Perhaps they just need to get rid of that little Dungeon board?
And also it is the design of these Dungeons themselves...Think about how you run these Dungeons and deal with the millions of adds. Of course classes taking advantage of AOE attacks are going to be on top, I also know HRS that are usually on top in DPS--because of build, encounter choices and GEAR. Its kind of funny cuz I always hear my friends talk about how the CW in group was 4th or 5th in DPS....not all CWs are walking around with 9K Power.
I could see changing some things like EOTS, but not ALL things. It guts CW.
Yes. You have missed the best passive in the game. EoTS has 15% chance to proc at rank 3 (5% is only rank 1). Furthermore, every single tick of damage from Conduit of Ice has a 15% chance, and steal time has three 15% chances to proc it per target. Basically if you led with CoI and Steal time you have a darn near 100% chance of EoTS procing giving you four seconds of guaranteed crits - enough time to blast everything with Sudden Storm and shard of Avalanche. A good player can have EoTS up in combat over 50% of the time. Combining that with your base chance to crit and a CW can have 60-70% crit percentage through a dungeon. Also you can ensure that you have 100% crit chance on all daily's. Just hold on to it for a few seconds until EoTS procs then unleash it.
It was massively, hugely, unbelievably overpowered and needed a nerf. However, a 90 second timer is going so far the other way that it renders the ability mostly useless.
because just those 2 classes can serg through dungeons without caring about anything else. CWs recover 100% hearlth with lifesteal and GWF don't care about damage with unstoppable, the devs want to balance that, so all classes are equally required.
I think the idea is that dungeons should be taken 1 enemy group at a time, what we have now is groups of CW and GWF gathering all the mobs in a room and then nuking all of them at once, and making dungeons last around 10 mins. I don't think that's what the devs had in mind when designing them.
Its quite bad, nothing has a chance 1v1 CW. I know many of you do not see it this way but please, stay tuned I am very hopeful that Akromatic will allow me to post a few clips of 1v1's against CW and you will be convinced.
If your thinking of the perma-freeze oppressor don't waste your time versus a HR or GWF. Although I can still kill them more times they will kill me, it's very difficult because GWF can reset chill stacks almost every time and then shatter wont take effect. HRs they literally heal more then take damage now since that new feat medicine, so the dot freeze build doesn't work with them unless you have 2 high damage encounters to take away chunks at a time while you keep them frozen
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
Great, post videos of Castle Never if you can. Will be really fun to see the new op cw with sungu taking 8 mobs at Castle Never, im sure will be convincing for everyone.
somewhere is fighting for you.
And in every "proof" video, the opponent seems to be playing in slow motion, doing 1 attack every 5 seconds. Never seen PVP done like that. Besides, what's the GS of the 2 people fighting? Please record the inspect as well. And no, I don't trust people. Cause people lie to get what they want, always have, always will. Most players in this game are PVE, not PVP. PVP has a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ton of factors to count in. It's not just class, it's enchants and gear. And saying nothing has a chance? I keep seeing CWs on the test server getting killed in PVP 1v1. With the CW having higher GS than whatever it is fighting...
It's about spec, gear, enchants. It's not the class itself. And comparing classes is a lot harder than looking at recorded PVP fights. For one, cause not once in those videos does the recorder go into inspect on the 2 fighting and show their GS. Video has 0 value as proof. For all we know, the opponent can be anywhere up to 5k lower in GS.