CWs- need control back
TRs - need damage back
GFs - need to be more tanky
The issue on WHY a gwf needs things like threat rush/takedown/roar etc is because its so easy to kite/negate damage in this game with a dodge. GWFs dont have a roll or dodge mechanic and let me tell you how frustrating it is to IBS or even takedown someone to THEN AFTER the animation is complete "blink" away... Lukily for us, takedown if missed resets to a 3 second CD, if that was taken away that would suck.
Another issue is that GWFs NEED threat rush to even compete with HRs, their infinite dodges are really just stupid, as a GWF my only hope in keeping up with them is to literally spam TR until I can roar+takedown and hope ONE of those two are not dodged so I can set up my IBS. Unstoppable means nothing when you cant hit a target that dodges.
So like this person put it, the ONLY tone down GWFs need atm is honestly the roar fix, and a small damage nerf to Dest specs. THEN CWs need their single target CC back, AND TRs need their damage back THEN HRs need their dodges nerfed to maybe 3 with longer range.
GFs need to be more tanky (in the area of block meter lasting longer) and overall I think DCs from my experience are fairly decent. Just my 2 cents...
Tell me please, how many damage u receive from a HR when the HR dodge?
And where is writen that that u kill the HR always and not to be killed?.
u have 2 cents for all: buffs there, nerf HR... but I dont see nothing for GWF... for you the GWF is perfect and not a issue in the actual gaming?
As HR I have 2 CC encounters with 15-18 seconds CD: Binding Arrows/Costrict Arrows.. ur 6 seconds unstoppable negate both... I have a escape encounter as marauder with CD of 10-15 secs.. ur spammable TR negate that and give dmg... Can I kill u with 1-2K damage from split shot if stop dodge (and take dmg by you)? how many split shot need for kill U? ur sprint is more of my speed, how I can escape ur damage and take range?
GWF is not only a melee, have alot of semiranged 15/30' range shots also.
U seem to me more suited for "Hello Kitty" or "I WIN BUTTON" type game that PvPgame (if one can speak of PvP in a P2W as NW or the long long time that need for a newbies for become competive in PvP).
HR Syncro - The Equalizer - PvP stats: 10000/4800 (kills/deaths)
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goldroger007Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1) GFs had that long time ago, did you complain then ?
2) FLS has a long cooldown and its damage is now reduced and it can be dodged by those who know how to dodge
3) We dont have a dodge also a full stamina bar cannot close in to a HR or a CW attacking me from their max range - also Stamina takes a long time to refill
4) IBS is tooltipped at around 6500 on my 16.3 GWF with 8000 power - the big numbers come from Greater/Perfect Vorpal, dont act as if the encounter itself hits for 15K base, also dodge it ( also a GF can hit for much more with a simple Lunging Strike+KC+crit, should they nerf GFs too ? )
5) "Attack Speed: carries a weapon 6 feet tall and still outswings most " during Unstoppable.
Conclusion - are you being stupid or simply trolling ?
i guess u are the one being stupid, u know that u are comaparing KC+lunging strike to just ONE encounter, compraing 2 encounter to one is just tard lol, and im a dc ive tried many build and in that of all builds the highest dps made on me are by GWFs, not even trs can outdps a GWF
I have a suggestion but Im afraid if I put it in the words I have in mind I'll offend someone again ( such fragile feelings people here have ). When you picked that DC at character creation you didnt expect to be a killer right ? Depending on your answer you can stop reading. In case you are not an idiot please continue.. The DC heals/buffs himself and his allies and does some damage/cc all while sliding back and forth around the node. As both a 16.3 GWF and 14.5 GF I've met DCs in pvp who stay on node unable to die and hold it till their mates come and clean house. You are not a bloody battle cleric dont expect to kill a GWF solo, you are supposed to survive him. If you cant do that look at people who can and learn from them.
Yes, I agree. And before mod3 clerics were able to survive (astral shield/chains/whatever healings you prefer) a gwf (equally geared) and do some team support.
Now, with the DEEPLY THOUGHT nerf to the clerics own healing we are forced to leave the healing skills behind as they are worthless to surviving the battlefield. Yes you need them to support your team, but having them slotted is just a waste cause you can't hold your **** together.
Why? Clerics are the first to be targeted (generally) and if healing skills don't work on themselves they are left with 3 useless encounters and nothing else to protect themselves.
Yes, the team should be helping out but that's about it. Right now I'm using all damaging skills...at least that way I can do something before dying.
On the last pvps I played yesterday the other teams would just ignore me and let me walk around. As some said to me yesterday, and I quote: "hahahaha", "stupid cleric", "why don't you do another char", "go home dc" (dunno what this last one was about, lol....by a TR after dealing me a 34k lashing blade...and im wearing profounds...lol).
I felt really discouraged to continue playing.
EguaDoidOx - Rock'n'roll DC / EguaDoidOx - Dominion Champion CW
Ancient Warriors Guild
There are reasonable requests for balance, but alot of the forum posts are always "I should never die in PVP, so if I do, nerf that class...."
Just saying.
GWF is indeed in a good spot, and roar is broken to bits, I will not slot it on my GWF, and I die aplenty.
Fix roar so people can counter, its a cheesy encounter and I wish people wouldn't slot it right now.
That being said, honestly the most OP thing right now is a pathfinder HR, Ive poured in 60k of damage into some on my GWF and cannot bring them down.
a GWF has to have some abilities to fight range... here is the issue, there is almost no way to balance everything out, you can keep tinkering, but you will always see people play the op classes in pvp. I know when Im on my DC, I feel like a weighted led balloon on the battlefield, with most of what I could do in the last 6 months nerfed to pieces. I no longer can hold nodes due to GWF and HR combos, I sit slightly off and help my team, if I dont get a good class composition Im screwed however. But if I get lucky and have a few node holders, I can trump around and keep everyone up over and over..
Word mate. Even as a Sentinel with RIDICULOUS defensive stats and "okay" crit-capable DPS I can chain prone one of Pathfinder guys, crit my IBS on last hit and they're back at 80-90% health in like .2 seconds meanwhile I'm already down to 20% HP despite my epic defensive stats which let me take brunt force from every class except glass cannon Swordmaster/Destroyers (which are easy to kill since they die in 5 hits).
I don't agree that Unstoppable is OP as peeps are saying. And don't forget that a LOT of GWFs are using combo: Unstoppable + Bloodcrystal + Restoring Strike, so the benfits of Unstoppable might seem more than it really is in terms of self-healing. Despite this, it's entirely necessary for GWF because we'd be a slow moving train that is easily ganked without it. That goes for mobility too, and don't freakin tell me that that's a problem because I've fought very well talented HRs, DCs, and CWs who can kite me much longer than necessary for me to be put in a situation where I'm already ganked and need to Unstoppable + Sprint away.
I will say that it does seem to gain % a bit faster then I'd expect in certain situations. Taking a crit seems to be the real culprit and will easily put you at 50%.
I can see their side of the argument though. We get "eh" bonus HP (enough to survive long enough for a getaway or an easy kill) and CC immunity. Combine that with a full sprint bar, which mind you, depletes rather fu*&^#g fast, and it seems like we're a freight train of doom, not to mention Threatening Rush.
But what happens if you take Unstoppable and Threatening Rush away? We'd be like CC prone (using that word by its dictionary meaning here) turtles slowly grudging across the battlefield while taking massive damage. Nah nah. Why not just take stealth away from TRs or Shields away from GFs? GWF would quickly go from being on top to being "the guy who gets easily ganked."
People seem to forget Gear Score too. My guildies have some HR, TRs, CWs, and even DCs that perform epically in PvP. Better than I can. Why? They have so much more GS. Does that make them seem OP to me? Sure. Does it mean they really are? No. They just put in the time/effort/money to get to that point.
As a GWF who ranks around page 70 on the leaderboards, I'd love to see these changes:
A.) Un-nerf CW CC, and either give DCs back their healing or prioritize their feats so they can become more viable in PvP
B.) Give Unstoppable a slower charge rate that doesn't spike 20%+ when you get hit with a crit, OR move the proc bar from 50% to 65% or 75% so it becomes less spam worthy
C.) Give CWs and DCs some synchronization in feats to allow higher defensive stats. They got what it takes for DPS and YES I REALIZE IT'S NOT ROLEPLAY WORTH FOR OR MAGE TO STACK DEFENSE.... but they need it to not feel so worthless. Fact is that we GWFs get a whole lot more Damage Reduction and Deflect % before factoring in Tenacity we seem to take it for granted.
If not giving other classes the opportunity to improve their survivability, and I'm totally excluding HRs from this list you regen freaks who seem to be invulnerable. Yes that's you, Mr. Pathfinder insanity man.... then other mechanics need to be introduced to improve their survivability aside from defense. New dailies, encounters, feat synchronization, whatever it takes.
I really feel for the CWs who used to be the c**k of the block now getting owned to shreds because their CC does ****. Meanwhile HRs still have their roots which are still annoying as hell (but balanced IMO). Of course Wizards are not a tanky class, I just don't think that they deserved to lose their only edge and I don't think DCs should have lost their healing while getting no boost to DPS.
A few changes and it would be a world of difference where any 1 v 1 situation might result in either guy losing, the only variables being skill, gear score, and latency :P
Yes, I agree. And before mod3 clerics were able to survive (astral shield/chains/whatever healings you prefer) a gwf (equally geared) and do some team support.
Now, with the DEEPLY THOUGHT nerf to the clerics own healing we are forced to leave the healing skills behind as they are worthless to surviving the battlefield. Yes you need them to support your team, but having them slotted is just a waste cause you can't hold your **** together.
Why? Clerics are the first to be targeted (generally) and if healing skills don't work on themselves they are left with 3 useless encounters and nothing else to protect themselves.
Yes, the team should be helping out but that's about it. Right now I'm using all damaging skills...at least that way I can do something before dying.
On the last pvps I played yesterday the other teams would just ignore me and let me walk around. As some said to me yesterday, and I quote: "hahahaha", "stupid cleric", "why don't you do another char", "go home dc" (dunno what this last one was about, lol....by a TR after dealing me a 34k lashing blade...and im wearing profounds...lol).
I felt really discouraged to continue playing.
U are a bad player and ruin also the team if u queue for pugs without healing stuffs
HR Syncro - The Equalizer - PvP stats: 10000/4800 (kills/deaths)
When you make a game, and when you make a melee class, the basic two stereotypes are either:
A. "The Mountain"
■ make him the tough, powerful, dominating "mountain" which has no match in the sheer ecstacy of close combat
■ the best defenses + brutal, brutal offensive powers
■ however, shows serious problems in catching upto someone to fight in melee range, slow and lumbering
B. "The Wind"
■ make him the slick, fast, technical "wind" which excelles in speedy and tricky combat
■ lower in damage but fast, efficient powers, cunning and tactical CCs to make up for lacking defenses and offenses
■ however, shows serious problems in survival, due to weaker physique and light armor, quick but fragile
...instead, what we have is the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant and gives birth to an abomination which a huge, chunk of the mountain suddenly gets up on his feet, starts walking and running around at the speed of the wind, and then avalanches itself against anything that stands in its way.
(In retrospect, TRs should have been the "wind", but then this time the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant, and then gives birth to a small chunk of rock that is as slow and untechnical as the mountain, and weak and frail as the wind. The heavens take pity on this runt of an existence so decides to make it invisible all the way, so it at least has a chance to start lobbing pebbles against the back of the head of any poor bystander)
...
When you make a melee class, you don't give him the best of everything and expect the rest of the people to be happy. Its just as simple as that. I mean, just what is the GWF's weakness? Is there even a weakness in the first place? CWs are frail, limited defense, and if misses out on the CCs, then its screwed. TRs are frail, has no real CCs, screwed when ITC/stealth is not there. DCs can't kill anything. GFs maybe strong, but are hunks of meat without guard meter, and some powers (smoke bomb anyone?) are the bane of their existence.
...so what do you exploit in GWFs to win?
...
Its either make him the mountain, or make him the wind. If we want him to be the mountain, then get the hell rid of those gap closers, sprint, and ranged CCs. If we want him to be the wind, then get the hell rid of Unstoppable. Its either this or that -- or no balance at all.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You always ask yourself why they put so much work into HR/GWF tweaks with Mod3 and in the end it looks even more screwed than it was. HR is announced to have another major re-balance and it's clear GWF also needs one as well in terms of PVP.
Then we have the CW, TR and GF which all also will get reworks and you now why this all isn't working. Because five of six classes are not final yet. The last two patches were really a step back. PVP has gotten worse with the PVP patch and all class balance changes contributed to even more imbalance. Maybe except for the GF changes, which were buffs for a class that desperately needed it.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
No... what they really need to do is realize they can't nerf their way into balance. And PvPers need to realize that too.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
What needs to be looked into is the restoration of your Single Target control powers that were NERFed in PvP.
THAT was your method of countering his Unstoppable and knockdown/prones. It Was to use Repel to push him away OR paralyze him or immobilize him.
Once they made the stupid mistake of removing those things from your side of PvP, or shortening their duration to almost nothing, suddenly you're in shoes where all his work... and none of your counters to anything he does works.
Well no wonder you can't compete anymore, and he looks like a GOD.
What REALLY needs to be looked at is the absolute reversal of all the classes PvP nerfs up to this point, as THAT is what caused the current situation... GWFs are just fine and have always been.
Whats MISSING... is your COUNTER to all of their things... so of course... you're now in shoes where all theirs works... none of yours does.
Why the hell you would want to PvP in those shoes in beyond me... I'd just walk away and let them stroke themselves off alone if I were you. Because obviously you're not allowed to participate in PvP... they are.
Another thing that needs a good reversal is the Rogue damage nerfs. These were stupid and short sighted. They would be able to compete with any GWF if they had their damage back.
There was NEVER anything wrong with the GWF powers and abilities... what you ran into was some idiot that did not understand the REAL balance of the classes and suddenly assumed that EVERYONE should fight toe to toe like a GWF...
... forgetting that the other classes are not designed to handle that kind of tank battle.... IT THEY'RE NOT A TANK...
Yes it annoys me.... they created an unbalanced issue, where there was none before through this short sighted lack of understanding.
Its called... shoes of your own making.
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
Don't waste my time.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
No I think they should keep their Iron Vanguard, that was a buff to the GWF to make it competitive and it worked great.
The real problem here is the other nerfs to the other classes, that allowed this to get out of hand. If those things had never been done, there's no way in hell GWFs could run rampant like this.
DCs and CWs would still be able to have their CCs to counter the GWFs, and Rogues would be right there on par with their damage.
You cannot nerf your way into balance. That will only cause more problems than it solves and hose up the PvE game... just like its repeatedly done over and over.
Iron Vanguard was not the buff the class needed, it was the Deep Gash bug that brought it back to life. The difference between SM and IV in PVE is slim to nonexistent anyway. In PVP though, it's not even a question. Nobody uses SM for a PVP spec.
No... what they really need to do is realize they can't nerf their way into balance. And PvPers need to realize that too.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
The classes do not work that way and never have.
A time-honored, classic load of HAMSTER argument when considering balance:
Don't nerf me. Buff all the others.
And again, I quote:
You have here a wooden monument. All the structures nailed together.
You see a large, big iron nail protruding from it that ruins the monument.
When you see a protruding nail, you hammer it back in like others.
You don't pull out all the other nails to look the same.
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Imagine correctly anticipating a takedown, dodging, and the rubberbanding back to where you were, now prone.
It's a ping issue I guess and goes both ways.
This happens to me all the frigging time. I dodge/mara out of danger and I still get proned&damage (at the end of the animation of marauder's escape o.O)
Iron Vanguard was not the buff the class needed, it was the Deep Gash bug that brought it back to life. The difference between SM and IV in PVE is slim to nonexistent anyway. In PVP though, it's not even a question. Nobody uses SM for a PVP spec.
Agreed, giving them IV gave them way to much control and mobility. The fact they can hit hard was countered by the ability to kite them or get away... Now that is not an option!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It's quite funny when people would focus a Guardian Fighter over a Great Weapon Fighter, even when the GWF is a much larger damage threat. Simply because the GWF isn't as susceptible to CC and takes longer to kill.
CC reduction isn't so much the issue, getting killed while cc'd the whole time wouldn't be fine you know. It's the immunities that are being too effective and not everyone has them.
Unstoppable is simply working overtime; it's doing too many things and too well.
The only real difference between SM and IV is that IV gets an additional ZOMG AOE prone, and an at-will gap closer.
It's just that both of those things are incredibly useful for PvP, and the former is also useful for PvE (takedown for a single target prone? Or..uh...a 5-target AoE prone? You choose...). There really is no reason not to go IV.
Sure, SM can still work fine in both PvE and PvP, but that's because the GWF core mechanics are OP as all get-out. Adding the IV paragon just pushes it further into hilarious faceroll territory.
SM can still do well in PvP, but IV is definitely superior. Threatening Rush in the hands of the heavy hitter that is the GWF, makes them unkiteable juggernaughts in 1v1 situations.
A time-honored, classic load of HAMSTER argument when considering balance:
And again, I quote:
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
Are you frigging kidding me???
Yeah its worked SOOOOO well up to this point hasn't it?
Please explain to me how everything is now suddenly and mysteriously "balance" after all these nerfaholics "made their corrections"
And how much more nerfing are you going to do that keeps hosing everything up more and more, and HAMSTER up the PVP game.
I don't want to hear any more of your HAMSTER, I am tired of you hosing up the game for everyone else with these useless... ENDLESS nerfs that aren't solving a **** thing.
The real problem is that the class is way too mobile.
■ Threatening Rush is simply bullshi* in every sense of the word.
■ So is sprint.
■ CCs like Roar and FSL are dealt as ranged AoEs ... really???
■ CCs like Takedown activation super fast
Dude, safe yourself some headaches. People either agree with you or they are stupid and/or GWF's. Nothing is more clear than how OP the GWF is and have been for months. Everyone but GWF's wanted them nerfed in mod 3 and devs buffed them.
I tried my best to balance them out pre mod 3 in this forum, and they got buffed. So either deal with people facerolling everything with easy mode GWF or quit the game. I am in-between those choices atm.
They did promise to fix Roar, if that doesn't happen in the next few weeks I am so gone from this game.
TRs are a lot more balanced now than they were at the beginning of the game, thanks to nerfs. More one-dimensional, sure, but still viable and more in line with other classes, where they were ridiculously overpowered in PvP to start with, and very strong in PvE too.
TRs are only viable using a build that everyone wants nerfed because it's OP. I don't see how that's an improvement to be honest.
TRs are ostensibly single target spike damagers, thus used to be PvE boss-killers par excellence. Now they're not. They were also great for PvP....because they were single target spike damagers, and now thanks to progressive nerfs because OMG TEH SPIKE DAMAGE CLASS IS SPIKE DAMAGING PEEPS, they're...not (outside of a few, very silly, builds).
PvP balance is just...dumb: it's really not something that should ever have been attempted because the classes were never designed with PvP in mind. Many of them have fundamentally PvP-incompatible core mechanics (threat generation woo! Mass AoE damage woo!)
Damage output scales waaaay out of line with resistance to damage, because the PvE mechanics are designed around avoiding red, not facetanking gigantic hits. PvP is all about massive arpen and stringing together as many unavoidable gigantic hits as possible (hallo prone-chain + IBS) so you end up with everyone just stacking hitpoints to circumvent this.
Since GWFs get both hitpoints AND arpen from con, they benefit more than anyone else from stacking con, AND they have a CC-ignoring, damage reducing, temp-HP granting class feature that is generated by taking damage.
Basically the current PvP meta favours everything GWFs are great at.
Comments
Tell me please, how many damage u receive from a HR when the HR dodge?
And where is writen that that u kill the HR always and not to be killed?.
u have 2 cents for all: buffs there, nerf HR... but I dont see nothing for GWF... for you the GWF is perfect and not a issue in the actual gaming?
As HR I have 2 CC encounters with 15-18 seconds CD: Binding Arrows/Costrict Arrows.. ur 6 seconds unstoppable negate both... I have a escape encounter as marauder with CD of 10-15 secs.. ur spammable TR negate that and give dmg... Can I kill u with 1-2K damage from split shot if stop dodge (and take dmg by you)? how many split shot need for kill U? ur sprint is more of my speed, how I can escape ur damage and take range?
GWF is not only a melee, have alot of semiranged 15/30' range shots also.
U seem to me more suited for "Hello Kitty" or "I WIN BUTTON" type game that PvPgame (if one can speak of PvP in a P2W as NW or the long long time that need for a newbies for become competive in PvP).
i guess u are the one being stupid, u know that u are comaparing KC+lunging strike to just ONE encounter, compraing 2 encounter to one is just tard lol, and im a dc ive tried many build and in that of all builds the highest dps made on me are by GWFs, not even trs can outdps a GWF
Yes, I agree. And before mod3 clerics were able to survive (astral shield/chains/whatever healings you prefer) a gwf (equally geared) and do some team support.
Now, with the DEEPLY THOUGHT nerf to the clerics own healing we are forced to leave the healing skills behind as they are worthless to surviving the battlefield. Yes you need them to support your team, but having them slotted is just a waste cause you can't hold your **** together.
Why? Clerics are the first to be targeted (generally) and if healing skills don't work on themselves they are left with 3 useless encounters and nothing else to protect themselves.
Yes, the team should be helping out but that's about it. Right now I'm using all damaging skills...at least that way I can do something before dying.
On the last pvps I played yesterday the other teams would just ignore me and let me walk around. As some said to me yesterday, and I quote: "hahahaha", "stupid cleric", "why don't you do another char", "go home dc" (dunno what this last one was about, lol....by a TR after dealing me a 34k lashing blade...and im wearing profounds...lol).
I felt really discouraged to continue playing.
Ancient Warriors Guild
Word mate. Even as a Sentinel with RIDICULOUS defensive stats and "okay" crit-capable DPS I can chain prone one of Pathfinder guys, crit my IBS on last hit and they're back at 80-90% health in like .2 seconds meanwhile I'm already down to 20% HP despite my epic defensive stats which let me take brunt force from every class except glass cannon Swordmaster/Destroyers (which are easy to kill since they die in 5 hits).
I don't agree that Unstoppable is OP as peeps are saying. And don't forget that a LOT of GWFs are using combo: Unstoppable + Bloodcrystal + Restoring Strike, so the benfits of Unstoppable might seem more than it really is in terms of self-healing. Despite this, it's entirely necessary for GWF because we'd be a slow moving train that is easily ganked without it. That goes for mobility too, and don't freakin tell me that that's a problem because I've fought very well talented HRs, DCs, and CWs who can kite me much longer than necessary for me to be put in a situation where I'm already ganked and need to Unstoppable + Sprint away.
I will say that it does seem to gain % a bit faster then I'd expect in certain situations. Taking a crit seems to be the real culprit and will easily put you at 50%.
I can see their side of the argument though. We get "eh" bonus HP (enough to survive long enough for a getaway or an easy kill) and CC immunity. Combine that with a full sprint bar, which mind you, depletes rather fu*&^#g fast, and it seems like we're a freight train of doom, not to mention Threatening Rush.
But what happens if you take Unstoppable and Threatening Rush away? We'd be like CC prone (using that word by its dictionary meaning here) turtles slowly grudging across the battlefield while taking massive damage. Nah nah. Why not just take stealth away from TRs or Shields away from GFs? GWF would quickly go from being on top to being "the guy who gets easily ganked."
People seem to forget Gear Score too. My guildies have some HR, TRs, CWs, and even DCs that perform epically in PvP. Better than I can. Why? They have so much more GS. Does that make them seem OP to me? Sure. Does it mean they really are? No. They just put in the time/effort/money to get to that point.
As a GWF who ranks around page 70 on the leaderboards, I'd love to see these changes:
A.) Un-nerf CW CC, and either give DCs back their healing or prioritize their feats so they can become more viable in PvP
B.) Give Unstoppable a slower charge rate that doesn't spike 20%+ when you get hit with a crit, OR move the proc bar from 50% to 65% or 75% so it becomes less spam worthy
C.) Give CWs and DCs some synchronization in feats to allow higher defensive stats. They got what it takes for DPS and YES I REALIZE IT'S NOT ROLEPLAY WORTH FOR OR MAGE TO STACK DEFENSE.... but they need it to not feel so worthless. Fact is that we GWFs get a whole lot more Damage Reduction and Deflect % before factoring in Tenacity we seem to take it for granted.
If not giving other classes the opportunity to improve their survivability, and I'm totally excluding HRs from this list you regen freaks who seem to be invulnerable. Yes that's you, Mr. Pathfinder insanity man.... then other mechanics need to be introduced to improve their survivability aside from defense. New dailies, encounters, feat synchronization, whatever it takes.
I really feel for the CWs who used to be the c**k of the block now getting owned to shreds because their CC does ****. Meanwhile HRs still have their roots which are still annoying as hell (but balanced IMO). Of course Wizards are not a tanky class, I just don't think that they deserved to lose their only edge and I don't think DCs should have lost their healing while getting no boost to DPS.
A few changes and it would be a world of difference where any 1 v 1 situation might result in either guy losing, the only variables being skill, gear score, and latency :P
2 cents or whatever
U are a bad player and ruin also the team if u queue for pugs without healing stuffs
That's my point! A cleric without healing HIMSELF is just a sitting duck!
Better to be throwing some damage around than setting an astral shield down and getting owned inside it without a chance.
Ancient Warriors Guild
5 DC's FotM metateam when this happens. (As long as they fix ArP)
When you make a game, and when you make a melee class, the basic two stereotypes are either:
...instead, what we have is the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant and gives birth to an abomination which a huge, chunk of the mountain suddenly gets up on his feet, starts walking and running around at the speed of the wind, and then avalanches itself against anything that stands in its way.
(In retrospect, TRs should have been the "wind", but then this time the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant, and then gives birth to a small chunk of rock that is as slow and untechnical as the mountain, and weak and frail as the wind. The heavens take pity on this runt of an existence so decides to make it invisible all the way, so it at least has a chance to start lobbing pebbles against the back of the head of any poor bystander)
...
When you make a melee class, you don't give him the best of everything and expect the rest of the people to be happy. Its just as simple as that. I mean, just what is the GWF's weakness? Is there even a weakness in the first place? CWs are frail, limited defense, and if misses out on the CCs, then its screwed. TRs are frail, has no real CCs, screwed when ITC/stealth is not there. DCs can't kill anything. GFs maybe strong, but are hunks of meat without guard meter, and some powers (smoke bomb anyone?) are the bane of their existence.
...so what do you exploit in GWFs to win?
...
Its either make him the mountain, or make him the wind. If we want him to be the mountain, then get the hell rid of those gap closers, sprint, and ranged CCs. If we want him to be the wind, then get the hell rid of Unstoppable. Its either this or that -- or no balance at all.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You can't have it all as a class, you need weaknesses
Then we have the CW, TR and GF which all also will get reworks and you now why this all isn't working. Because five of six classes are not final yet. The last two patches were really a step back. PVP has gotten worse with the PVP patch and all class balance changes contributed to even more imbalance. Maybe except for the GF changes, which were buffs for a class that desperately needed it.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
The classes do not work that way and never have.
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
No I think they should keep their Iron Vanguard, that was a buff to the GWF to make it competitive and it worked great.
The real problem here is the other nerfs to the other classes, that allowed this to get out of hand. If those things had never been done, there's no way in hell GWFs could run rampant like this.
DCs and CWs would still be able to have their CCs to counter the GWFs, and Rogues would be right there on par with their damage.
You cannot nerf your way into balance. That will only cause more problems than it solves and hose up the PvE game... just like its repeatedly done over and over.
A time-honored, classic load of HAMSTER argument when considering balance:
And again, I quote:
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This happens to me all the frigging time. I dodge/mara out of danger and I still get proned&damage (at the end of the animation of marauder's escape o.O)
Agreed, giving them IV gave them way to much control and mobility. The fact they can hit hard was countered by the ability to kite them or get away... Now that is not an option!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
CC reduction isn't so much the issue, getting killed while cc'd the whole time wouldn't be fine you know. It's the immunities that are being too effective and not everyone has them.
Unstoppable is simply working overtime; it's doing too many things and too well.
It's just that both of those things are incredibly useful for PvP, and the former is also useful for PvE (takedown for a single target prone? Or..uh...a 5-target AoE prone? You choose...). There really is no reason not to go IV.
Sure, SM can still work fine in both PvE and PvP, but that's because the GWF core mechanics are OP as all get-out. Adding the IV paragon just pushes it further into hilarious faceroll territory.
Are you frigging kidding me???
Yeah its worked SOOOOO well up to this point hasn't it?
Please explain to me how everything is now suddenly and mysteriously "balance" after all these nerfaholics "made their corrections"
And how much more nerfing are you going to do that keeps hosing everything up more and more, and HAMSTER up the PVP game.
I don't want to hear any more of your HAMSTER, I am tired of you hosing up the game for everyone else with these useless... ENDLESS nerfs that aren't solving a **** thing.
YOU and your ideals are a massive failure...
Dude, safe yourself some headaches. People either agree with you or they are stupid and/or GWF's. Nothing is more clear than how OP the GWF is and have been for months. Everyone but GWF's wanted them nerfed in mod 3 and devs buffed them.
I tried my best to balance them out pre mod 3 in this forum, and they got buffed. So either deal with people facerolling everything with easy mode GWF or quit the game. I am in-between those choices atm.
They did promise to fix Roar, if that doesn't happen in the next few weeks I am so gone from this game.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
PvP balance is just...dumb: it's really not something that should ever have been attempted because the classes were never designed with PvP in mind. Many of them have fundamentally PvP-incompatible core mechanics (threat generation woo! Mass AoE damage woo!)
Damage output scales waaaay out of line with resistance to damage, because the PvE mechanics are designed around avoiding red, not facetanking gigantic hits. PvP is all about massive arpen and stringing together as many unavoidable gigantic hits as possible (hallo prone-chain + IBS) so you end up with everyone just stacking hitpoints to circumvent this.
Since GWFs get both hitpoints AND arpen from con, they benefit more than anyone else from stacking con, AND they have a CC-ignoring, damage reducing, temp-HP granting class feature that is generated by taking damage.
Basically the current PvP meta favours everything GWFs are great at.