When you make a game, and when you make a melee class, the basic two stereotypes are either:
A. "The Mountain"
■ make him the tough, powerful, dominating "mountain" which has no match in the sheer ecstacy of close combat
■ the best defenses + brutal, brutal offensive powers
■ however, shows serious problems in catching upto someone to fight in melee range, slow and lumbering
B. "The Wind"
■ make him the slick, fast, technical "wind" which excelles in speedy and tricky combat
■ lower in damage but fast, efficient powers, cunning and tactical CCs to make up for lacking defenses and offenses
■ however, shows serious problems in survival, due to weaker physique and light armor, quick but fragile
...instead, what we have is the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant and gives birth to an abomination which a huge, chunk of the mountain suddenly gets up on his feet, starts walking and running around at the speed of the wind, and then avalanches itself against anything that stands in its way.
(In retrospect, TRs should have been the "wind", but then this time the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant, and then gives birth to a small chunk of rock that is as slow and untechnical as the mountain, and weak and frail as the wind. The heavens take pity on this runt of an existence so decides to make it invisible all the way, so it at least has a chance to start lobbing pebbles against the back of the head of any poor bystander)
...
When you make a melee class, you don't give him the best of everything and expect the rest of the people to be happy. Its just as simple as that. I mean, just what is the GWF's weakness? Is there even a weakness in the first place? CWs are frail, limited defense, and if misses out on the CCs, then its screwed. TRs are frail, has no real CCs, screwed when ITC/stealth is not there. DCs can't kill anything. GFs maybe strong, but are hunks of meat without guard meter, and some powers (smoke bomb anyone?) are the bane of their existence.
...so what do you exploit in GWFs to win?
...
Its either make him the mountain, or make him the wind. If we want him to be the mountain, then get the hell rid of those gap closers, sprint, and ranged CCs. If we want him to be the wind, then get the hell rid of Unstoppable. Its either this or that -- or no balance at all.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You always ask yourself why they put so much work into HR/GWF tweaks with Mod3 and in the end it looks even more screwed than it was. HR is announced to have another major re-balance and it's clear GWF also needs one as well in terms of PVP.
Then we have the CW, TR and GF which all also will get reworks and you now why this all isn't working. Because five of six classes are not final yet. The last two patches were really a step back. PVP has gotten worse with the PVP patch and all class balance changes contributed to even more imbalance. Maybe except for the GF changes, which were buffs for a class that desperately needed it.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited June 2014
No... what they really need to do is realize they can't nerf their way into balance. And PvPers need to realize that too.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
What needs to be looked into is the restoration of your Single Target control powers that were NERFed in PvP.
THAT was your method of countering his Unstoppable and knockdown/prones. It Was to use Repel to push him away OR paralyze him or immobilize him.
Once they made the stupid mistake of removing those things from your side of PvP, or shortening their duration to almost nothing, suddenly you're in shoes where all his work... and none of your counters to anything he does works.
Well no wonder you can't compete anymore, and he looks like a GOD.
What REALLY needs to be looked at is the absolute reversal of all the classes PvP nerfs up to this point, as THAT is what caused the current situation... GWFs are just fine and have always been.
Whats MISSING... is your COUNTER to all of their things... so of course... you're now in shoes where all theirs works... none of yours does.
Why the hell you would want to PvP in those shoes in beyond me... I'd just walk away and let them stroke themselves off alone if I were you. Because obviously you're not allowed to participate in PvP... they are.
Another thing that needs a good reversal is the Rogue damage nerfs. These were stupid and short sighted. They would be able to compete with any GWF if they had their damage back.
There was NEVER anything wrong with the GWF powers and abilities... what you ran into was some idiot that did not understand the REAL balance of the classes and suddenly assumed that EVERYONE should fight toe to toe like a GWF...
... forgetting that the other classes are not designed to handle that kind of tank battle.... IT THEY'RE NOT A TANK...
Yes it annoys me.... they created an unbalanced issue, where there was none before through this short sighted lack of understanding.
Its called... shoes of your own making.
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
Don't waste my time.
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
No I think they should keep their Iron Vanguard, that was a buff to the GWF to make it competitive and it worked great.
The real problem here is the other nerfs to the other classes, that allowed this to get out of hand. If those things had never been done, there's no way in hell GWFs could run rampant like this.
DCs and CWs would still be able to have their CCs to counter the GWFs, and Rogues would be right there on par with their damage.
You cannot nerf your way into balance. That will only cause more problems than it solves and hose up the PvE game... just like its repeatedly done over and over.
Iron Vanguard was not the buff the class needed, it was the Deep Gash bug that brought it back to life. The difference between SM and IV in PVE is slim to nonexistent anyway. In PVP though, it's not even a question. Nobody uses SM for a PVP spec.
No... what they really need to do is realize they can't nerf their way into balance. And PvPers need to realize that too.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
The classes do not work that way and never have.
A time-honored, classic load of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> argument when considering balance:
Don't nerf me. Buff all the others.
And again, I quote:
You have here a wooden monument. All the structures nailed together.
You see a large, big iron nail protruding from it that ruins the monument.
When you see a protruding nail, you hammer it back in like others.
You don't pull out all the other nails to look the same.
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Imagine correctly anticipating a takedown, dodging, and the rubberbanding back to where you were, now prone.
It's a ping issue I guess and goes both ways.
This happens to me all the frigging time. I dodge/mara out of danger and I still get proned&damage (at the end of the animation of marauder's escape o.O)
Iron Vanguard was not the buff the class needed, it was the Deep Gash bug that brought it back to life. The difference between SM and IV in PVE is slim to nonexistent anyway. In PVP though, it's not even a question. Nobody uses SM for a PVP spec.
Agreed, giving them IV gave them way to much control and mobility. The fact they can hit hard was countered by the ability to kite them or get away... Now that is not an option!
Shieldbash60 GF ~ Iron Vanguard19.0k Overpowered60 CW~ Thaumaturge14.5k ==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
It's quite funny when people would focus a Guardian Fighter over a Great Weapon Fighter, even when the GWF is a much larger damage threat. Simply because the GWF isn't as susceptible to CC and takes longer to kill.
CC reduction isn't so much the issue, getting killed while cc'd the whole time wouldn't be fine you know. It's the immunities that are being too effective and not everyone has them.
Unstoppable is simply working overtime; it's doing too many things and too well.
The only real difference between SM and IV is that IV gets an additional ZOMG AOE prone, and an at-will gap closer.
It's just that both of those things are incredibly useful for PvP, and the former is also useful for PvE (takedown for a single target prone? Or..uh...a 5-target AoE prone? You choose...). There really is no reason not to go IV.
Sure, SM can still work fine in both PvE and PvP, but that's because the GWF core mechanics are OP as all get-out. Adding the IV paragon just pushes it further into hilarious faceroll territory.
SM can still do well in PvP, but IV is definitely superior. Threatening Rush in the hands of the heavy hitter that is the GWF, makes them unkiteable juggernaughts in 1v1 situations.
A time-honored, classic load of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> argument when considering balance:
And again, I quote:
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
Are you frigging kidding me???
Yeah its worked SOOOOO well up to this point hasn't it?
Please explain to me how everything is now suddenly and mysteriously "balance" after all these nerfaholics "made their corrections"
And how much more nerfing are you going to do that keeps hosing everything up more and more, and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up the PVP game.
I don't want to hear any more of your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, I am tired of you hosing up the game for everyone else with these useless... ENDLESS nerfs that aren't solving a **** thing.
The real problem is that the class is way too mobile.
■ Threatening Rush is simply bullshi* in every sense of the word.
■ So is sprint.
■ CCs like Roar and FSL are dealt as ranged AoEs ... really???
■ CCs like Takedown activation super fast
Dude, safe yourself some headaches. People either agree with you or they are stupid and/or GWF's. Nothing is more clear than how OP the GWF is and have been for months. Everyone but GWF's wanted them nerfed in mod 3 and devs buffed them.
I tried my best to balance them out pre mod 3 in this forum, and they got buffed. So either deal with people facerolling everything with easy mode GWF or quit the game. I am in-between those choices atm.
They did promise to fix Roar, if that doesn't happen in the next few weeks I am so gone from this game.
TRs are a lot more balanced now than they were at the beginning of the game, thanks to nerfs. More one-dimensional, sure, but still viable and more in line with other classes, where they were ridiculously overpowered in PvP to start with, and very strong in PvE too.
TRs are only viable using a build that everyone wants nerfed because it's OP. I don't see how that's an improvement to be honest.
TRs are ostensibly single target spike damagers, thus used to be PvE boss-killers par excellence. Now they're not. They were also great for PvP....because they were single target spike damagers, and now thanks to progressive nerfs because OMG TEH SPIKE DAMAGE CLASS IS SPIKE DAMAGING PEEPS, they're...not (outside of a few, very silly, builds).
PvP balance is just...dumb: it's really not something that should ever have been attempted because the classes were never designed with PvP in mind. Many of them have fundamentally PvP-incompatible core mechanics (threat generation woo! Mass AoE damage woo!)
Damage output scales waaaay out of line with resistance to damage, because the PvE mechanics are designed around avoiding red, not facetanking gigantic hits. PvP is all about massive arpen and stringing together as many unavoidable gigantic hits as possible (hallo prone-chain + IBS) so you end up with everyone just stacking hitpoints to circumvent this.
Since GWFs get both hitpoints AND arpen from con, they benefit more than anyone else from stacking con, AND they have a CC-ignoring, damage reducing, temp-HP granting class feature that is generated by taking damage.
Basically the current PvP meta favours everything GWFs are great at.
Comments
That's my point! A cleric without healing HIMSELF is just a sitting duck!
Better to be throwing some damage around than setting an astral shield down and getting owned inside it without a chance.
Ancient Warriors Guild
5 DC's FotM metateam when this happens. (As long as they fix ArP)
When you make a game, and when you make a melee class, the basic two stereotypes are either:
...instead, what we have is the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant and gives birth to an abomination which a huge, chunk of the mountain suddenly gets up on his feet, starts walking and running around at the speed of the wind, and then avalanches itself against anything that stands in its way.
(In retrospect, TRs should have been the "wind", but then this time the mountain has sex with the wind, gets pregnant, and then gives birth to a small chunk of rock that is as slow and untechnical as the mountain, and weak and frail as the wind. The heavens take pity on this runt of an existence so decides to make it invisible all the way, so it at least has a chance to start lobbing pebbles against the back of the head of any poor bystander)
...
When you make a melee class, you don't give him the best of everything and expect the rest of the people to be happy. Its just as simple as that. I mean, just what is the GWF's weakness? Is there even a weakness in the first place? CWs are frail, limited defense, and if misses out on the CCs, then its screwed. TRs are frail, has no real CCs, screwed when ITC/stealth is not there. DCs can't kill anything. GFs maybe strong, but are hunks of meat without guard meter, and some powers (smoke bomb anyone?) are the bane of their existence.
...so what do you exploit in GWFs to win?
...
Its either make him the mountain, or make him the wind. If we want him to be the mountain, then get the hell rid of those gap closers, sprint, and ranged CCs. If we want him to be the wind, then get the hell rid of Unstoppable. Its either this or that -- or no balance at all.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
You can't have it all as a class, you need weaknesses
Then we have the CW, TR and GF which all also will get reworks and you now why this all isn't working. Because five of six classes are not final yet. The last two patches were really a step back. PVP has gotten worse with the PVP patch and all class balance changes contributed to even more imbalance. Maybe except for the GF changes, which were buffs for a class that desperately needed it.
You are going to have to accept the fact that you're going to be killed in one round of attacks PERIOD...
Then when each class can do it... you'll have your balance. Or the Reverse (in some classes cases) of... if that class takes forever to kill you... then you take forever to kill them too.
You will not get ANY balance from the mistaken believe you can nerf your way into it. You're only imbalancing the PvE side and hosing up the rest of the game.
You will NOT get any balance from trying to make ALL PvP into a case where its one fighter with 100 hit points swinging away at another fighter for 1d8 damage with a sword... you're going to have to GET OVER THAT... and accept reality.
The classes do not work that way and never have.
yes i agree, included with the reversal of the iron vanguard paragon path update
No I think they should keep their Iron Vanguard, that was a buff to the GWF to make it competitive and it worked great.
The real problem here is the other nerfs to the other classes, that allowed this to get out of hand. If those things had never been done, there's no way in hell GWFs could run rampant like this.
DCs and CWs would still be able to have their CCs to counter the GWFs, and Rogues would be right there on par with their damage.
You cannot nerf your way into balance. That will only cause more problems than it solves and hose up the PvE game... just like its repeatedly done over and over.
A time-honored, classic load of <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> argument when considering balance:
And again, I quote:
Every balance starts from a nerf. It has always been that way in PvP.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
This happens to me all the frigging time. I dodge/mara out of danger and I still get proned&damage (at the end of the animation of marauder's escape o.O)
Agreed, giving them IV gave them way to much control and mobility. The fact they can hit hard was countered by the ability to kite them or get away... Now that is not an option!
Overpowered 60 CW ~ Thaumaturge 14.5k
==========================================
~ GF Buffs were great we are much better, please fix the bugs now... Thank you!
CC reduction isn't so much the issue, getting killed while cc'd the whole time wouldn't be fine you know. It's the immunities that are being too effective and not everyone has them.
Unstoppable is simply working overtime; it's doing too many things and too well.
It's just that both of those things are incredibly useful for PvP, and the former is also useful for PvE (takedown for a single target prone? Or..uh...a 5-target AoE prone? You choose...). There really is no reason not to go IV.
Sure, SM can still work fine in both PvE and PvP, but that's because the GWF core mechanics are OP as all get-out. Adding the IV paragon just pushes it further into hilarious faceroll territory.
Are you frigging kidding me???
Yeah its worked SOOOOO well up to this point hasn't it?
Please explain to me how everything is now suddenly and mysteriously "balance" after all these nerfaholics "made their corrections"
And how much more nerfing are you going to do that keeps hosing everything up more and more, and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> up the PVP game.
I don't want to hear any more of your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, I am tired of you hosing up the game for everyone else with these useless... ENDLESS nerfs that aren't solving a **** thing.
YOU and your ideals are a massive failure...
Dude, safe yourself some headaches. People either agree with you or they are stupid and/or GWF's. Nothing is more clear than how OP the GWF is and have been for months. Everyone but GWF's wanted them nerfed in mod 3 and devs buffed them.
I tried my best to balance them out pre mod 3 in this forum, and they got buffed. So either deal with people facerolling everything with easy mode GWF or quit the game. I am in-between those choices atm.
They did promise to fix Roar, if that doesn't happen in the next few weeks I am so gone from this game.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
PvP balance is just...dumb: it's really not something that should ever have been attempted because the classes were never designed with PvP in mind. Many of them have fundamentally PvP-incompatible core mechanics (threat generation woo! Mass AoE damage woo!)
Damage output scales waaaay out of line with resistance to damage, because the PvE mechanics are designed around avoiding red, not facetanking gigantic hits. PvP is all about massive arpen and stringing together as many unavoidable gigantic hits as possible (hallo prone-chain + IBS) so you end up with everyone just stacking hitpoints to circumvent this.
Since GWFs get both hitpoints AND arpen from con, they benefit more than anyone else from stacking con, AND they have a CC-ignoring, damage reducing, temp-HP granting class feature that is generated by taking damage.
Basically the current PvP meta favours everything GWFs are great at.