I don't even know what you are trying to say... So DC is not broken but other classes are broken? If you would like to interpret it this way, fine. Similar to the change in righteousness, this is just playing with words.
"Interpretation"? There is nothing to interpret. What part of "the DC is a multipler" class do you not understand?
EVERYONE with common sense acknowledges that trying to buff the DC is tricky because you are also indirectly affecting EVERYONE the DC is currently allied with. That easily includes any broken GWF/TR/HR build currently in the cleric's party.
There is no merit in considering the alternative. Your "interpretation", that it's actually the DCs that are broken, is ABSURD considering that GWFs/TRs/HRs who are NOT Destroyers/permastealth/overstacking survival gear are ALSO struggling against FotM builds.
Or did you simply not know this? And you people accuse me of having a narrow viewpoint? For shame.
Also, you say clerics are very powerful, yet even people whose main characters are not DCs acknowledge the disadvantages of this very class as the requirements for progressing through mod 3 came out. According to your logic, DCs' powerfulness is like the emperor's new clothes, if you can't see it, you are stupid -_-
There are also a lot of DCs who are not actually struggling with new content, and several of those are in mere rank 5s/6s. My logic would be only mirror the lesson of the emperor's new clothes if ALL clerics were struggling with mod 3+ content. That is definitely not the case.
Ergo, your "interpretation" is laughably wrong.
Go finish your pvp campaign and put your toon in the first page of the leader board, then come lecture us. In the mean time, readers are just gonna facepalm when they read your posts.
You do realize that the majority of the players in leaderboards either have FotM builds or are in premades? Have you bothered asking people who are at the top of the leaderboards what their specs are? Do try.
Myself I'm at the 30-40th page atm. Not bad all things considered, I'm not PvP specced and I queue solo.
So I went back and read your post. I get more and more confused... ok... DCs are practically not needed so now everyone is asking for CWs and GWFs. You say this is intended.
Indeed. The point is for no class to be needed.
DCs' debuffs are inferior to CWs' and even TRs'. ok... DCs' debuffs are bad too.
Inferior to a TR's against bosses. But bad? Lol. By your logic, just because that GWF is topping DPS charts then none of the other party members should bother contributing.
If this is the kind of logic you go by then NO WONDER you keep saying that just because I think DCs are not broken then I must be I'm blind/deaf/mute to the current state of DCs. You actually CANNOT see beyond just the viewpoint of those sad solo/PvP experiences your DC may have experienced. You CANNOT see that other classes are actually struggling too, and that the FotM builds are the ones that are to blame for everyone's else's misery. Instead you just lash out at EVERYONE else and try to comfort yourself with the delusion that your class -must- be broken.
Because if that GWF is top DPS, then everyone else should just stop DPSing. Because if GWFs/TRs/HRs are all topping leaderboards, then it must be that the DC is broken.
Not one for the finer details, are you? Guess what, at least with my... "interpretation"... as you call it, DCs probably will be more balanced in the future. I do acknowledge that we have issues, it's just ours are not as game-breaking as other classes'. What your "interpretation" merely does is make all DCs a part of the problem. You are suggesting turning us a FotM class so we can enjoy being part of the problem.
For shame.
Do you know just how much damage the current (broken) Destroyer IBS can potentially do? Do you know that prone apparently negates deflection? To enable DC to survive a full Destroyer rotation, counting crits, would mean granting us unholy survivability rivaling the GWFs Unstoppable, and you casually suggest it in a manner that that implies you want in constantly up all the time.
I, delusional? Surely you jest.
DCs' healings are just "side effects" as you mentioned. Sometimes other classes with heavy damage and life steal can out heal us. So DCs' healings don't do much either.
See above on " DCs' healings don't do much either." Athough yes, healing is just a side-effect. MITIGATION is our true specialty.
Above. Now you have said that DCs' healings and buffs are nothing and the class itself is not needed any more
Not needed just like any other class. The point is that no class should be needed.
Surprisingly, your last paragraph started to talk about how awesome this class is. Am I missing something?
Yes. The fact that you apparently have such a bloated sense of self-worth that your world caves in when somebody says your class is no longer needed, so much that you fail to acknowledge something so simple as the fact that no other class is needed anyway and that at the very end the devs are just trying to balance everyone (PvE-wise) in a very unique way. Obviously a cleric bringing the possibility of +Vorpal to all + mitigation/healing/debuffs, or a CW with very powerful control/AoE damage skills, or a GWF with amazing survival/DPS skills are all still very, very desirable to have in a party, but none of thsee are truly "needed".
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
"Not needed just like any other class. The point is that no class should be needed".
My position is the complete opposite - all classes should be needed.
Now you can say that for dps there can be options and some flexibility between melee/ranged. But are you really implying that a tank should never be needed? A healer/support should never be needed?
If no class is needed, then people could be all the same class. I find this not needed position to be astounding in it's assumption. To me it beggars belief.
Healers/Support have never been the quickest class to level or get through quest kills. Some games' tank classes also have this disadvantage.
But they offset this by having abilities that bring real value to the games. Those values bring enjoyment to playing the class. Whether it's a tank facing down a boss and blocking damage from others or a healer keeping them and hopefully all the others alive.
Now of course changes to the healer, any healer, will affect group performance. This is not exclusive to NW, nor should it be used as reasoning to handicap the class. Other games - lots of them - manage to give the healer a great range of abilities without making them a God class or impacting on the people around them to the point of invulnerability.
To rework the DC will have to take into account the effect on other classes. But every game developer for every company has to do this when they make changes to a class. Irrespective of pve they also have to consider the pvp aspect, single and group.
But taking this reasoning that the DC cannot be that good because it affects the overall group. What happens next time then? If they happen to boost other classes then they should nerf the DC so as not to change the overall output of the group? But then again, if the DC is not regarded as being needed why not?
That is not the way to go, obviously. All classes should be needed, it is the role of the game developer to do this. Having a couple of really strong classes, whilst keeping another significantly lower purely to maintain a reasonable group performance is completely wrong.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
"Not needed just like any other class. The point is that no class should be needed".
My position is the complete opposite - all classes should be needed.
Now you can say that for dps there can be options and some flexibility between melee/ranged. But are you really implying that a tank should never be needed? A healer/support should never be needed?
If no class is needed, then people could be all the same class. I find this not needed position to be astounding in it's assumption. To me it beggars belief.
Healers/Support have never been the quickest class to level or get through quest kills. Some games' tank classes also have this disadvantage.
But they offset this by having abilities that bring real value to the games. Those values bring enjoyment to playing the class. Whether it's a tank facing down a boss and blocking damage from others or a healer keeping them and hopefully all the others alive.
Now of course changes to the healer, any healer, will affect group performance. This is not exclusive to NW, nor should it be used as reasoning to handicap the class. Other games - lots of them - manage to give the healer a great range of abilities without making them a God class or impacting on the people around them to the point of invulnerability.
To rework the DC will have to take into account the effect on other classes. But every game developer for every company has to do this when they make changes to a class. Irrespective of pve they also have to consider the pvp aspect, single and group.
But taking this reasoning that the DC cannot be that good because it affects the overall group. What happens next time then? If they happen to boost other classes then they should nerf the DC so as not to change the overall output of the group? But then again, if the DC is not regarded as being needed why not?
That is not the way to go, obviously. All classes should be needed, it is the role of the game developer to do this. Having a couple of really strong classes, whilst keeping another significantly lower purely to maintain a reasonable group performance is completely wrong.
Hey lyaise~ I just stopped responding since there are two people responding to this thread who haven't even realize that the way they respond is actually contradicting their own arguments within and between their own posts. They actually argued against their own arguments not knowing that they themselves are being cited. In this situation, where the clever ones are convoluting themselves, it's just entertaining to sit back and watch. Have a nice day! ~Biibii
Pretty sure there's a lot of stuff you could buff for DCs without affecting the team meta one bit.
Leave the buffs and debuffs as they are, increase our damage output a tad, get rid of righteousness because srsly why is this still a thing, should be good to go.
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mittensofdoomMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 247Arc User
edited May 2014
Im actually enjoying my DC's even more since IWD launched. I respecced my main half-orc DC (40% crit 7.2k power p.vorp) to virtuous to deal with solo play and im having such fun running around with my FF/DG/debuffing DL blasting things to pieces. I'm actually getting 6k heal ticks from the FF which is really nice (on other people during heroic encounters, on me its more like 3k, still nice).
Of course this build is a little risky in dungeons but I rarely do those anymore except as a favor to friends and only when they have a decent team that can risk losing the feated foresight.
Im not doing domination pvp for obvious reasons (I would get mullered) but open pvp is a pleasant surprise. I roll in with FF/break/chains with brand of the sun and hammer and can take down CW's, TR's and HR's with little trouble as long as I remember I can use those lovely ice healing potions in there. CC really in key in there. As is my upgraded blacksmith bonus, that is funny as heck.
Saying all this though I am reminded that not everybody has such a nicely built cleric (half-orc really is the way to go imo, or halfling for dom pvp, I have both) and I feel for my brethren and sistren that are having such a bad time of it right now. A lot of the issues like the arpen and the chains bug do need fixing. I just wanted to let people know that you can still have fun
Edit: also what I found nice about IWD is the incoming healing buff. I took that and added to my new cleric artifact and the eye of lathendar plus the acolyte of kelemvor's bonus im currently on a 12% incoming healing bonus which I hope to increase by making the artifacts orange and the acolyte epic, which believe me is going to take time to do. I know not everybody can do this but if you can its worth it!
Just a little history on DC change on all major patches: nerf, then nerf, then nerf, then nerf again till its finally nerfed. Now If were CC while a GWF destroyer focus us its over. destroyer passive + destroyer spec = 62.5% more dammage ouput on all skill....
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
I honestly sometimes try to understand our fellow clerics who mention the importance of our potencial in bolstering our allies and the consequence of that which is not being able to:
- withstrand aganst most of the classes ( in 1 vs 1)
- overheal the damage of most of the classes ( in 1 vs 1)
- inability to effectively save our allies in equal situations....the heals+buffs are too weak even on our allies to save them (2 vs 2 for exemple)
- Inability to effectively damage our enemies....if we make a DPS build...we lose the already low survivability we have (this one makes sense....we are clerics...not wizards...but still it should be in the list of the things we can't do).
For me...that makes no sense...just because of 2-3 buffs...like Hallowed Ground and Divine Glow our class must be weak in all other aspects? We should not be able to hold aganst 1-2 different classes? We should be weak?! It makes no sense.
Oh and the High Prophet set...yes it can be used in PVP...yes it makes the enemy take more damage. No, it does not make you live longer than Miracle or Profound. I don't think High Prophet set is OP in PVP, because it makes use lose tenacity, stats, survival....just for 1 debuff...because of which we can be killed 1,5 rotations if caught unaware.
(PVE opinion)
We are a support&heal class. You made an MMO with group option possible and with Dungeon Content.
If roles like Leader and Protector become "optional/not needed"...you are estimulating the creation of Striker roles...and only Strikers....
In the end...Neverwinter loses diversity and complexity...the game becomes more boring. Protectors and Leaders will dissapear and only 1-2 classes will remain. This is the result of the "option", as Strikers will grow in gear and power...they will accept less and less Protectors and Leaders into their group, making it harder for them to get better gear and do End-game content..resulting in their gradual dissapearance.
Make better content which requires the presence of Protectors&Leaders or one of both at a time.
The gear increase should not an argument to exclude these roles.... Make fights where there are phases which require rough Heal....or fights where you require someone to withstand a BIG ammount of damage and Hold something.
Life Steal is a good stat, but I think the way you designed the fights, it is too powerful. Because Strikers have time to recover their Health with Lifesteal..make fights where there is needed more mitigation or heal so lifesteal helps but does not become "enogh".
And make this fights challenging so the gear helps to complete it, but does not remove the need of a Tank/Healer/Bard....something that helps taking damage or healing.
I'm kinda having issue with this remark. While I do acknowledge it should be so to promote independency, but currently.. the, good pvp teams REQUIRE GWFs to be in it. Extreme damage and prone with good overall tankiness..
It will be nice to have some benefits for high level cleric, to keep DC motivated
something like good set armor bonus or last boon feat that works great with DC
the burning guidance is very nice. its not a game changing, but cleric that reach last boon get something extra (consider all the bad feats we have and bad damage its a nice)
something like last boon or armor set bonus - target that you critical heal get immune for 1 sec, or something similar
so DC at the highest level or fully equip will be considered equal to other classes
It will be nice to have some benefits for high level cleric, to keep DC motivated
something like good set armor bonus or last boon feat that works great with DC
the burning guidance is very nice. its not a game changing, but cleric that reach last boon get something extra (consider all the bad feats we have and bad damage its a nice)
something like last boon or armor set bonus - target that you critical heal get immune for 1 sec, or something similar
so DC at the highest level or fully equip will be considered equal to other classes
Well it needs something.
The first and easiest changes are ones that do not affect groups. So individual buffs, changes to some single target skill abilities - and for the love of all that's holy - get rid of the self healing penalty, perversely titled Righteousness in it's original incarnation.
To have a self heal debuff on a class that heals is one of the most absurd mechanics I have experienced in an mmo - and there are plenty to choose from.
A Leader Class - mmm? What exactly does this description refer to? It somehow leads? Where would this be then. Questing? Foundry? Heroics? PVP? ah, Leading from the back like some squad mascot being carried along by others.
What is 90+% of the new expansion? Quests, Heroics, PVP. Strolled through by other classes, whilst the DC has to hope that someone else turns up in their location so they can grab onto the shirt tails and get something completed.
DEVS - if one of you happens to read this. Get in touch with me. You will have my email in my account information. I would welcome a serious discussion with you on this class, your initial ideas behind it, where it all went wrong, and what you are going to do to put it right.
...............vote for your favourite expansion.......... "Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity". ..............not this one then.............
biibiisai - i completely agree, but think you are banging your head against a wall in trying to convince someone so one eyed in their perception of the dc that the devs could halve all the class's outputs and we'd still see a post saying it was the right thing to do.
Said my piece further up, not going to add more to that - there's enough there for the devs to go on. That's it.
However there is another approach to the dc you can take:
love it!!!!!
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
What is 90+% of the new expansion? Quests, Heroics, PVP. Strolled through by other classes, whilst the DC has to hope that someone else turns up in their location so they can grab onto the shirt tails and get something completed.
funny thing about this is i hate it when others do help me on quests/heroics and i don't get nearly as much random assistance when i am on my rogue.
kinda ruins my life-steal rotation when something dies early or gets pushed outside my aoes >.>
If NW Online someday put the Old School D&D Battle Cleric I'll play as a real Cleric again. It's disgusting this stupid weirdo symbol that they wield. Why actual MMOs don't get focused on simple things? I'm looking for an old school MMO RPG with classic classes and races and armors and weapons. I don't want to see those colored weirdo armors too....
Once again I edited the original post with some extra feedback I read here.
I would like to remind, that if you read something I wrote and it's not what you meant, please tell me and I shall correct it.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
What bothers me is that no dev took the time to answer all the concerns about clerics.
There is no light at the end of the tunnel
almondum's doing a pretty good job of keeping this thread updated and unbiased.
What bothers me is that no dev took the time to answer all the concerns about clerics.
Except a dev actually did. My, but you people have a flair for dramatic tragedy. A lot of you should really be theater actors or one of those charismatic preachers, not clerics.
Panderus himself, iirc, answered some of user spani4rd's questions about the game and clerics specifically. A summary of his reply basically goes "we're looking into it". Post should be somewhere in dev tracker.
Not a particularly satisfying reply, but it's a start.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
almondum's doing a pretty good job of keeping this thread updated and unbiased.
Except a dev actually did. My, but you people have a flair for tragedy and dramatics. A lot of you should really be theater actors or one of those charismatic preachers, not clerics.
Panderus himself, iirc, answered some of user spani4rd's questions about the game and clerics specifically. A summary of his reply basically goes "we're looking into it". Post should be somewhere in dev tracker.
Not a particularly satisfying reply, but it's a start.
Went trough post from Panderus for this year and didnt found what your talking about.... link plz?
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Look harder, the post stands out even on dev tracker.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Here is a copy of what Panderus said:
Well I opened the can of worms...
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
Armor Penetration - Yea, this isn't ideal and we aren't a fan either. However, it takes a good amount of work to not only fix everything, but then bring down the current damage levels to compensate for this. ArPen isn't worthless in most cases and powers deal about the damage we want them to. It takes a long time to make a new class, it also takes a long time to make these sorts of sweeping changes.
PvP Elo - There is. GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
Post Domination Fighting - This was a bug that allowed players to grief others and cause injuries. We should support dueling in a more appropriate manner. There is another post about this as well.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
No comment about the DC.... man you live in a dreamland, can u tell me what kind of drug you use, I would like to be in a place where DC is fine and Dev listen to us too.
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Tyrtallow whats the name of your DC? I would really like to know cause personnaly I know all good DC in pvp in the game and they all agree with me.
maybe your soo good that your on page 0 in leaderboard and you only play versus other players from the same page. Page 0 being a secret page for really godly players.
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
No comment about the DC.... man you live in a dreamland, can u tell me what kind of drug you use, I would like to be in a place where DC is fine and Dev listen to us too.
Apparently you're too mentally incompetent to do something as simple as check the original post and see what spani4rd was even talking about.
spani4rd's post is here and the issues that pertain to the DC in particular include the following:
1-Armor Penetration still does not affect any DOT abilities. This affects all classes, some more than others, but it's been an issues for ages and it seems like it would be a priority to fix something that's a global issue. This has been an issue a since long before mod 3.
One of the major issues DCs have in PvP atm is that DoTs are not affected by ArP, so when you end up fighting against pretty much anything with decent gear the damage of your DoTs drop from competent to laughable.
Even considering 30% enemy target mitigation/damage resistance, which is "low" by PvP standards, you are already looking at a 30% drop in DoT damage. Powers that count as DoTs include: Forgemaster's Flame, Break the Spirit and Punishing Light.
Even with the adjustments Panderus claims the devs implemented, one must consider the current PvP meta - which focuses more on survivability/defensive stats - exacerbating the problem.
Panderus' reply: we're working on it, but implementing major changes takes time.
2-Supposively there's and ELO system for the pvp matchmaking ques but if there is it seems to be really screwed up or doesn't even work. Currently there's no parity in the pvp matches for group make up, GS or premades. You're just as likely to end up with a 5 person premade where everybody has 15k+ GS against a similar premade or against a group of 5 random 10k GS people. If the ELO system worked properly it should increase the enjoyment of PVP for everybody from the new beginners to the casual mid level player to the hardcore BIS pvpers.
Because DCs are a group-oriented class (stop playing if you didn't know this) having a party member with 8k GS/blues and greens in a 15k GS everyone-else-in-full-pvp-gear fight can potentially affect the party with a DC in it more than the party without a DC in it. Think percentages: Hallowed Ground gives a massive +15% to damage/mitigation to an ally, but that's only worthwhile if the ally actually has high enough base damage/mitigation to work with.
While skill can somewhat make up for subpar gear, it would be simpler if matches were actually more fair.
Panderus explains that a fully functional elo system was indeed the devs' ultimate goal, but proper implementation has been very difficult.
3-Mod 3 seems to have added more imbalance between classes after they been brought more into line with eachother thanks to the PVP patch. I know things don't always turn out as planned but I would think that some tweaks, to help realine things untill a more indepth study can be done to bring about better long term solutions, would be something that could benefit a large portion of the player base. I'm under the impression that a class balance patch was the next major addition after mod 3, yet I see almost no public info about this and mod4 is already being promoted
I don't know how you failed to interpret this part properly. I'm assuming you're either stoned or drunk, because it's pretty much self-explanatory.
This is basically spani4rd's way of saying "why the heck are destroyer GWFs/perma-stealth TRs/HRs still broken have you people even bothered to check the leaderboards and now you're announcing mode 4 instead of a badly needed class balance patch blahblahblah..."
Panderus replies, more or less: "(Insert possible apology word here), we're doing our best."
And seeing what they say about GF being fine make me sad sad sad....
GFs are fine in PvP. I don't why you'd think otherwise since a good GF is one of the few things that can reliably stalemate a GWF/permastealth. They have among the largest hitboxes in the game, allowing squishier classes like CWs/DCs to "hide" within their avatars, and they have prone combos. Finally, they can block any of the strongest player nukes in the game.
The problem with GFs is that the currently broken GWF is capable of doing pretty much anything they can do, and a lot of the time GWFs do it better.
See previous quote for possible implications.
Panderus doesn't comment on the sorry state of GFs in PvE, but that's already been addressed elsewhere.
spani4rd brings up several more issues in his post and Panderus' brief reply addresses some of them, but seriously learn to read between the lines on your own. While spani4rd does try his best to be unbiased things like this:
3.H- Some of the rewards are also rather biased towards certain classes such as the boon that gives you 5 glory for each kill. How does that help classes that get almost no kills? It's great if your a GWF or TR getting 15 kills a match or something. It seems like it would be more fair if it counted for kills+asists even if the amount of bonus glory was reduced.
...pretty much give away that quite a few of his queries were about the DC class in particular. After all, how many classes do you know make it a point to support instead of hunt down other players in PvP?
Anyway spani4rd's approach is understandable, his dedication commendable and thanks to him you people now know a bit more about what's happening behind the scenes.
Like I said the gist of Panderus' reply was not particularly satisfying, but it explains some things.
Tyrtallow whats the name of your DC? I would really like to know cause personnaly I know all good DC in pvp in the game and they all agree with me.
Knowing good players doesn't make you one of them. This must be why the very first thing you do when confronted with a logical argument is to use the "Oh, but I know all good the PvP DC's!" defense.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Apparently you're too mentally incompetent to do something as simple as check the original post and see what spani4rd was even talking about.
spani4rd's post is here and the issues that pertain to the DC in particular as the following:
One of the major issues DCs have in PvP atm is that DoTs are not affected by ArP so when you end up fighting against pretty much anything with decent gear the damage of your DoTs drop from competent to laughable.
Even considering just 30% mitigation/damage resistance, which can even be considered "low" by PvP standards, you are already looking at a 30% drop in DoT Powers that count as DoTs include: Forgemaster's Flame, Break the Spirit and Punishing Light. Even with the adjustments Panderus claims the devs may have made the current PvP meta, which focuses more on survivability/defensive stats, only exacerbates the problem.
Panderus' reply: we're working on it, but major changes like this takes time.
Because DCs are a group-oriented class (stop playing if you didn't know this) having a party member with 8k GS/blues and greens in a 15k GS everyone-else-in-full-pvp-gear fight can potentially affect the party with a DC in it more than the party without a DC in it. Think percentages: Hallowed Ground gives a massive +15% to damage/mitigation to an ally, but that's only worthwhile if the ally actually has high enough base damage/mitigation to work with.
Panderus explains that a fully functional elo system was indeed the devs' ultimate goal, but proper implementation has been very difficult.
I don't know how you failed to interpret this part properly. I'm assuming you're either stoned or drunk, because it's pretty much self-explanatory.
This is basically spani4rd's way of saying "why the heck are destroyer GWFs/perma-stealth TRs/HRs still broken have you people even bothered to check the leaderboards and now you're announcing mode 4 instead of a badly needed class balance patch blahblahblahblah..."
Panderus replies, more or less: "(Insert possible apology word here), we're doing our best."
GFs are fine in PvP. I don't why you'd think otherwise since a good GF is one of the few things that can reliably stalemate a GWF/permastealth. They have among the largest hitboxes in the game, allowing squishier classes like CWs/DCs to "hide" within their avatars, and they have prone combos. Finally, they can block any of the strongest player nukes in the game.
The problem with GFs is that the currently broken GWF is capable of doing pretty anything they can do, and better most of the time.
See previous quote for possible implications.
Panderus doesn't comment on the sorry state of GFs in PvE, but that's already been addressed elsewhere.
spani4rd brings up several more issues, but seriously learn to read between the lines on your own. spani4rd tries his best to be unbiased but things like this:
...pretty much give it away. How many classes do you know don't make it a point to focus on killing other people in PvP?
Knowing good players doesn't make you one of them. This must be why the very first thing you do when confronted with a logical argument is to use the "Oh, but I know all good PvP DC's!" defense.
Im one of the best DC outhere by the way, anyone who do a lot of pvp know me. Your just a dumb **** who couldnt kill a cleric before MOD 3 because you suck too much. Also your Alexander@tyrtallow isnt even on the first 400 pages so before coming here and saying we dont understand nothing and calling us mentally incompetent go play and make a name for yourself in pvp. Right now we only know you as the HAMSTER on the forum who dont want the DC to get balanced.
Go back on your low level ranger cause right now you cannot do nothing either with your cleric.
From now one you can write whatever you want ill just pass over it and stop wasting my time reading your senseless garbage. And I suggest everyone else do the same. Your just a Troll in the end.
Papa Smurf / Uncle Ben --DC
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
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psychaos999Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
if everybody think different than you, chances are you are wrong tyrtallow. But what the **** do we know, we are all dumb, right?
Wait... i just want to say something here. Any pug clerics as long as he has near to 50:50 Win:Lose ratio, he is at page 100 to 150 range without any difficulties. You can try to recheck whether this guy is out of page 400, because that means he is either not pvping, or is too poor and lost all his games. I seldom play domination now but keep on focusing on GG pvp and OPvP, but i am still at page 100 to 150 no matter losing or winning. My games are lesser than 50 anyway so it may not be accurate, maybe he lost too much?
Edit: If you are free, you can trace the name and @handle of every cleric from page 1 to 200. That will show our current status in pvp. How many clerics reached the first 200 page among thousands pages of pvper?? Start to count and you will know also who is the most hardworking pvp clerics recently, and i am not one of those as i am lazy to pvp after finishing all 8 tasks of domination. I am curious to know how many clerics in first 200 page, i doubt it is no more than 100 clerics, please help me count ty, i am at page 107 without any serious pvping, mostly pug.
Comments
Thanks! I hope our concerns can be heard.
HAMSTER.tic should read the 4E SRD and design the damned game properly.
EVERYONE with common sense acknowledges that trying to buff the DC is tricky because you are also indirectly affecting EVERYONE the DC is currently allied with. That easily includes any broken GWF/TR/HR build currently in the cleric's party.
There is no merit in considering the alternative. Your "interpretation", that it's actually the DCs that are broken, is ABSURD considering that GWFs/TRs/HRs who are NOT Destroyers/permastealth/overstacking survival gear are ALSO struggling against FotM builds.
Or did you simply not know this? And you people accuse me of having a narrow viewpoint? For shame.
There are also a lot of DCs who are not actually struggling with new content, and several of those are in mere rank 5s/6s. My logic would be only mirror the lesson of the emperor's new clothes if ALL clerics were struggling with mod 3+ content. That is definitely not the case.
Ergo, your "interpretation" is laughably wrong.
You do realize that the majority of the players in leaderboards either have FotM builds or are in premades? Have you bothered asking people who are at the top of the leaderboards what their specs are? Do try.
Myself I'm at the 30-40th page atm. Not bad all things considered, I'm not PvP specced and I queue solo.
Indeed. The point is for no class to be needed.
Inferior to a TR's against bosses. But bad? Lol. By your logic, just because that GWF is topping DPS charts then none of the other party members should bother contributing.
If this is the kind of logic you go by then NO WONDER you keep saying that just because I think DCs are not broken then I must be I'm blind/deaf/mute to the current state of DCs. You actually CANNOT see beyond just the viewpoint of those sad solo/PvP experiences your DC may have experienced. You CANNOT see that other classes are actually struggling too, and that the FotM builds are the ones that are to blame for everyone's else's misery. Instead you just lash out at EVERYONE else and try to comfort yourself with the delusion that your class -must- be broken.
Because if that GWF is top DPS, then everyone else should just stop DPSing. Because if GWFs/TRs/HRs are all topping leaderboards, then it must be that the DC is broken.
Not one for the finer details, are you? Guess what, at least with my... "interpretation"... as you call it, DCs probably will be more balanced in the future. I do acknowledge that we have issues, it's just ours are not as game-breaking as other classes'. What your "interpretation" merely does is make all DCs a part of the problem. You are suggesting turning us a FotM class so we can enjoy being part of the problem.
For shame.
Do you know just how much damage the current (broken) Destroyer IBS can potentially do? Do you know that prone apparently negates deflection? To enable DC to survive a full Destroyer rotation, counting crits, would mean granting us unholy survivability rivaling the GWFs Unstoppable, and you casually suggest it in a manner that that implies you want in constantly up all the time.
I, delusional? Surely you jest.
See above on " DCs' healings don't do much either." Athough yes, healing is just a side-effect. MITIGATION is our true specialty.
Not needed just like any other class. The point is that no class should be needed.
Yes. The fact that you apparently have such a bloated sense of self-worth that your world caves in when somebody says your class is no longer needed, so much that you fail to acknowledge something so simple as the fact that no other class is needed anyway and that at the very end the devs are just trying to balance everyone (PvE-wise) in a very unique way. Obviously a cleric bringing the possibility of +Vorpal to all + mitigation/healing/debuffs, or a CW with very powerful control/AoE damage skills, or a GWF with amazing survival/DPS skills are all still very, very desirable to have in a party, but none of thsee are truly "needed".
Is it possible to use a mace in a hand and a holy book or shield in the other?
Sorry but I'm new here and I got disappointed with this weird chain symbol. I'm kind of old school stuff...
My position is the complete opposite - all classes should be needed.
Now you can say that for dps there can be options and some flexibility between melee/ranged. But are you really implying that a tank should never be needed? A healer/support should never be needed?
If no class is needed, then people could be all the same class. I find this not needed position to be astounding in it's assumption. To me it beggars belief.
Healers/Support have never been the quickest class to level or get through quest kills. Some games' tank classes also have this disadvantage.
But they offset this by having abilities that bring real value to the games. Those values bring enjoyment to playing the class. Whether it's a tank facing down a boss and blocking damage from others or a healer keeping them and hopefully all the others alive.
Now of course changes to the healer, any healer, will affect group performance. This is not exclusive to NW, nor should it be used as reasoning to handicap the class. Other games - lots of them - manage to give the healer a great range of abilities without making them a God class or impacting on the people around them to the point of invulnerability.
To rework the DC will have to take into account the effect on other classes. But every game developer for every company has to do this when they make changes to a class. Irrespective of pve they also have to consider the pvp aspect, single and group.
But taking this reasoning that the DC cannot be that good because it affects the overall group. What happens next time then? If they happen to boost other classes then they should nerf the DC so as not to change the overall output of the group? But then again, if the DC is not regarded as being needed why not?
That is not the way to go, obviously. All classes should be needed, it is the role of the game developer to do this. Having a couple of really strong classes, whilst keeping another significantly lower purely to maintain a reasonable group performance is completely wrong.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
Hey lyaise~ I just stopped responding since there are two people responding to this thread who haven't even realize that the way they respond is actually contradicting their own arguments within and between their own posts. They actually argued against their own arguments not knowing that they themselves are being cited. In this situation, where the clever ones are convoluting themselves, it's just entertaining to sit back and watch. Have a nice day! ~Biibii
Leave the buffs and debuffs as they are, increase our damage output a tad, get rid of righteousness because srsly why is this still a thing, should be good to go.
Of course this build is a little risky in dungeons but I rarely do those anymore except as a favor to friends and only when they have a decent team that can risk losing the feated foresight.
Im not doing domination pvp for obvious reasons (I would get mullered) but open pvp is a pleasant surprise. I roll in with FF/break/chains with brand of the sun and hammer and can take down CW's, TR's and HR's with little trouble as long as I remember I can use those lovely ice healing potions in there. CC really in key in there. As is my upgraded blacksmith bonus, that is funny as heck.
Saying all this though I am reminded that not everybody has such a nicely built cleric (half-orc really is the way to go imo, or halfling for dom pvp, I have both) and I feel for my brethren and sistren that are having such a bad time of it right now. A lot of the issues like the arpen and the chains bug do need fixing. I just wanted to let people know that you can still have fun
Edit: also what I found nice about IWD is the incoming healing buff. I took that and added to my new cleric artifact and the eye of lathendar plus the acolyte of kelemvor's bonus im currently on a 12% incoming healing bonus which I hope to increase by making the artifacts orange and the acolyte epic, which believe me is going to take time to do. I know not everybody can do this but if you can its worth it!
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
I honestly sometimes try to understand our fellow clerics who mention the importance of our potencial in bolstering our allies and the consequence of that which is not being able to:
- withstrand aganst most of the classes ( in 1 vs 1)
- overheal the damage of most of the classes ( in 1 vs 1)
- inability to effectively save our allies in equal situations....the heals+buffs are too weak even on our allies to save them (2 vs 2 for exemple)
- Inability to effectively damage our enemies....if we make a DPS build...we lose the already low survivability we have (this one makes sense....we are clerics...not wizards...but still it should be in the list of the things we can't do).
For me...that makes no sense...just because of 2-3 buffs...like Hallowed Ground and Divine Glow our class must be weak in all other aspects? We should not be able to hold aganst 1-2 different classes? We should be weak?! It makes no sense.
Oh and the High Prophet set...yes it can be used in PVP...yes it makes the enemy take more damage. No, it does not make you live longer than Miracle or Profound. I don't think High Prophet set is OP in PVP, because it makes use lose tenacity, stats, survival....just for 1 debuff...because of which we can be killed 1,5 rotations if caught unaware.
(PVE opinion)
We are a support&heal class. You made an MMO with group option possible and with Dungeon Content.
If roles like Leader and Protector become "optional/not needed"...you are estimulating the creation of Striker roles...and only Strikers....
In the end...Neverwinter loses diversity and complexity...the game becomes more boring. Protectors and Leaders will dissapear and only 1-2 classes will remain. This is the result of the "option", as Strikers will grow in gear and power...they will accept less and less Protectors and Leaders into their group, making it harder for them to get better gear and do End-game content..resulting in their gradual dissapearance.
Make better content which requires the presence of Protectors&Leaders or one of both at a time.
The gear increase should not an argument to exclude these roles.... Make fights where there are phases which require rough Heal....or fights where you require someone to withstand a BIG ammount of damage and Hold something.
Life Steal is a good stat, but I think the way you designed the fights, it is too powerful. Because Strikers have time to recover their Health with Lifesteal..make fights where there is needed more mitigation or heal so lifesteal helps but does not become "enogh".
And make this fights challenging so the gear helps to complete it, but does not remove the need of a Tank/Healer/Bard....something that helps taking damage or healing.
Thank you for reading,
Have fun,
Almondum.
I'm kinda having issue with this remark. While I do acknowledge it should be so to promote independency, but currently.. the, good pvp teams REQUIRE GWFs to be in it. Extreme damage and prone with good overall tankiness..
something like good set armor bonus or last boon feat that works great with DC
the burning guidance is very nice. its not a game changing, but cleric that reach last boon get something extra (consider all the bad feats we have and bad damage its a nice)
something like last boon or armor set bonus - target that you critical heal get immune for 1 sec, or something similar
so DC at the highest level or fully equip will be considered equal to other classes
Well it needs something.
The first and easiest changes are ones that do not affect groups. So individual buffs, changes to some single target skill abilities - and for the love of all that's holy - get rid of the self healing penalty, perversely titled Righteousness in it's original incarnation.
To have a self heal debuff on a class that heals is one of the most absurd mechanics I have experienced in an mmo - and there are plenty to choose from.
A Leader Class - mmm? What exactly does this description refer to? It somehow leads? Where would this be then. Questing? Foundry? Heroics? PVP? ah, Leading from the back like some squad mascot being carried along by others.
What is 90+% of the new expansion? Quests, Heroics, PVP. Strolled through by other classes, whilst the DC has to hope that someone else turns up in their location so they can grab onto the shirt tails and get something completed.
DEVS - if one of you happens to read this. Get in touch with me. You will have my email in my account information. I would welcome a serious discussion with you on this class, your initial ideas behind it, where it all went wrong, and what you are going to do to put it right.
"Mod 6. Oh my f****** god. It gutted the game pure and simple. And what wasn't gutted was messed up by the poorly thought out new level cap and equip. The game never recovered from that atrocity".
..............not this one then.............
love it!!!!!
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
funny thing about this is i hate it when others do help me on quests/heroics and i don't get nearly as much random assistance when i am on my rogue.
kinda ruins my life-steal rotation when something dies early or gets pushed outside my aoes >.>
Once again I edited the original post with some extra feedback I read here.
I would like to remind, that if you read something I wrote and it's not what you meant, please tell me and I shall correct it.
Have fun everyone,
Almondum.
There is no light at the end of the tunnel
Except a dev actually did. My, but you people have a flair for dramatic tragedy. A lot of you should really be theater actors or one of those charismatic preachers, not clerics.
Panderus himself, iirc, answered some of user spani4rd's questions about the game and clerics specifically. A summary of his reply basically goes "we're looking into it". Post should be somewhere in dev tracker.
Not a particularly satisfying reply, but it's a start.
Went trough post from Panderus for this year and didnt found what your talking about.... link plz?
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Look harder, the post stands out even on dev tracker.
Well I opened the can of worms...
First off, its important to understand that the person working on Tiefling tail animations or haircuts is not the same person who will adjust basically anything on class powers or PvP balance. An animator or character artist will rarely if ever do anything design related, they are all different skillsets, talents and procedures on how to get them into the game.
Also, many of these issues are not simple and require time, resources, testing and finally more time and testing.
Armor Penetration - Yea, this isn't ideal and we aren't a fan either. However, it takes a good amount of work to not only fix everything, but then bring down the current damage levels to compensate for this. ArPen isn't worthless in most cases and powers deal about the damage we want them to. It takes a long time to make a new class, it also takes a long time to make these sorts of sweeping changes.
PvP Elo - There is. GS is not a factor on purpose, as gear will help you do better and thusly get a better skill rating. Its also not the end all of winning a match, point control is much more important. Depending on the time of the day, there may not be enough people in the queue to get a good rating match with. We are monitoring this and are considering adjusting things, but we dont want queue times to increase too much. Finally, premade vs premade: Players who do premades will win more often, giving them a better skill value, which means they are more likley to play against other premades and highly skilled (and likley geared) players.
Guardian Fighters in PvP - I don't believe they are "nearly useless in PvP" at all. They can be VERY hard to kill and can hold a point for LONG periods of time by themselves.
Hunter Rangers - We made a lot of changes in Preview and we hope they are in a better place than they were before. Split Shot and a few other powers were just too powerful to even need anything else. We are keeping an eye on things.
Class Equality - Things in a game will never be completely equal for all things for all classes. We try our best, but it can have some severe diminishing returns for its worth.
Open PvP - The Heroic Encounter has been broken until today, well see if that can lure some more PvE centric players in there. We'll see.
Post Domination Fighting - This was a bug that allowed players to grief others and cause injuries. We should support dueling in a more appropriate manner. There is another post about this as well.
I hope that helped put some light onto why things arent just always fixed as quickly as you (or myself) would like them to. There is always a tangled web of player desires vs what we have time to realistically implement for the fullest effect.
No comment about the DC.... man you live in a dreamland, can u tell me what kind of drug you use, I would like to be in a place where DC is fine and Dev listen to us too.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
maybe your soo good that your on page 0 in leaderboard and you only play versus other players from the same page. Page 0 being a secret page for really godly players.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
kindly quote the words.. 'cause i cant find any.
spani4rd's post is here and the issues that pertain to the DC in particular include the following:
One of the major issues DCs have in PvP atm is that DoTs are not affected by ArP, so when you end up fighting against pretty much anything with decent gear the damage of your DoTs drop from competent to laughable.
Even considering 30% enemy target mitigation/damage resistance, which is "low" by PvP standards, you are already looking at a 30% drop in DoT damage. Powers that count as DoTs include: Forgemaster's Flame, Break the Spirit and Punishing Light.
Even with the adjustments Panderus claims the devs implemented, one must consider the current PvP meta - which focuses more on survivability/defensive stats - exacerbating the problem.
Panderus' reply: we're working on it, but implementing major changes takes time.
Because DCs are a group-oriented class (stop playing if you didn't know this) having a party member with 8k GS/blues and greens in a 15k GS everyone-else-in-full-pvp-gear fight can potentially affect the party with a DC in it more than the party without a DC in it. Think percentages: Hallowed Ground gives a massive +15% to damage/mitigation to an ally, but that's only worthwhile if the ally actually has high enough base damage/mitigation to work with.
While skill can somewhat make up for subpar gear, it would be simpler if matches were actually more fair.
Panderus explains that a fully functional elo system was indeed the devs' ultimate goal, but proper implementation has been very difficult.
I don't know how you failed to interpret this part properly. I'm assuming you're either stoned or drunk, because it's pretty much self-explanatory.
This is basically spani4rd's way of saying "why the heck are destroyer GWFs/perma-stealth TRs/HRs still broken have you people even bothered to check the leaderboards and now you're announcing mode 4 instead of a badly needed class balance patch blahblahblah..."
Panderus replies, more or less: "(Insert possible apology word here), we're doing our best."
GFs are fine in PvP. I don't why you'd think otherwise since a good GF is one of the few things that can reliably stalemate a GWF/permastealth. They have among the largest hitboxes in the game, allowing squishier classes like CWs/DCs to "hide" within their avatars, and they have prone combos. Finally, they can block any of the strongest player nukes in the game.
The problem with GFs is that the currently broken GWF is capable of doing pretty much anything they can do, and a lot of the time GWFs do it better.
See previous quote for possible implications.
Panderus doesn't comment on the sorry state of GFs in PvE, but that's already been addressed elsewhere.
spani4rd brings up several more issues in his post and Panderus' brief reply addresses some of them, but seriously learn to read between the lines on your own. While spani4rd does try his best to be unbiased things like this: ...pretty much give away that quite a few of his queries were about the DC class in particular. After all, how many classes do you know make it a point to support instead of hunt down other players in PvP?
Anyway spani4rd's approach is understandable, his dedication commendable and thanks to him you people now know a bit more about what's happening behind the scenes.
Like I said the gist of Panderus' reply was not particularly satisfying, but it explains some things.
Knowing good players doesn't make you one of them. This must be why the very first thing you do when confronted with a logical argument is to use the "Oh, but I know all good the PvP DC's!" defense.
Im one of the best DC outhere by the way, anyone who do a lot of pvp know me. Your just a dumb **** who couldnt kill a cleric before MOD 3 because you suck too much. Also your Alexander@tyrtallow isnt even on the first 400 pages so before coming here and saying we dont understand nothing and calling us mentally incompetent go play and make a name for yourself in pvp. Right now we only know you as the HAMSTER on the forum who dont want the DC to get balanced.
Go back on your low level ranger cause right now you cannot do nothing either with your cleric.
From now one you can write whatever you want ill just pass over it and stop wasting my time reading your senseless garbage. And I suggest everyone else do the same. Your just a Troll in the end.
Santa Claus --GF
Gargamel --CW
Edit: If you are free, you can trace the name and @handle of every cleric from page 1 to 200. That will show our current status in pvp. How many clerics reached the first 200 page among thousands pages of pvper?? Start to count and you will know also who is the most hardworking pvp clerics recently, and i am not one of those as i am lazy to pvp after finishing all 8 tasks of domination. I am curious to know how many clerics in first 200 page, i doubt it is no more than 100 clerics, please help me count ty, i am at page 107 without any serious pvping, mostly pug.