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Please rethink the implementation of Unstoppable
ianthewizard2012
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,142 Arc User
The PvP is in need of a balance mainly because Unstoppable being implemented in an unbelievable way. The following figure is a screenshot taken from 4e Player's Handbook that shows how Unstoppable works in pnp. As you can see, it originally only grants temporary hit points and nothing else.
Although it's understandable that mmo can't be exactly the same as pnp so Unstoppable deserves some changes to make it accommodate to mmo, it in this game has been buffed way too much, especially the cc immunity, and becomes too removed from D&D. No D&D fighter should be able to have cc immunity.
As a controller player, I know CW needs some help, but I would rather see Unstoppable being looked into first because it now is PvP game-breaking and causing PvP imbalance.
Currently, the number of Unstoppable users in your team determines your team's win and lose. And PvP shouldn't be like that.
Although it's understandable that mmo can't be exactly the same as pnp so Unstoppable deserves some changes to make it accommodate to mmo, it in this game has been buffed way too much, especially the cc immunity, and becomes too removed from D&D. No D&D fighter should be able to have cc immunity.
As a controller player, I know CW needs some help, but I would rather see Unstoppable being looked into first because it now is PvP game-breaking and causing PvP imbalance.
Currently, the number of Unstoppable users in your team determines your team's win and lose. And PvP shouldn't be like that.
Post edited by ianthewizard2012 on
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Gannicus Destroyer, GWF Destroyer retired
Kate Beckinsale NB DC, Link NB GF
"There is only one way to be a champion..., Never ...ing lose"
I'm okay to see they introduce barbarian class and give it a similar rage ability (with fatigue after battle, like you said), though I'm not sure if D&D's rule allows barbarian to have cc immunity. Personally, I'm not a fan of seeing classes being combined. When GWF was introduced, it should have been made as disciplined fighter instead of barbarian, which goes into rage easily.
If anything, if we're really going to talk about balance (at least in terms of PvP) the fixes needed would be:
(1) Threatning Rush: frickin' bullshi* at-will gap closer, needs changes in par with TR Gloaming Cut
(2) FSL: ranged CCs? And a prone at that? Really? For the game's toughest, strongest melee class?
(3) sprint: need higher stamina burn rate. Runs much too long, much too fast
(4) IBS: Encounter version of Shocking Execution. ROFL
(5) Attack Speed: carries a weapon 6 feet tall and still outswings most.
The standard tactics for frail ranged classes or light-defense classes to fight against heavy damage, heavy defense melee classes are to kite it. Except you can't kite any of the fighter classes because in reality, in the game they have the best gap-closers as well as fastest movement that can be maintained forever. There is no 'kiting' a GWF because the GWF is effectively a RANGED class at this rate -- they shoot themselves as projectiles for crying out loud.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
WTB Class Reroll please
I actually think Unstoppable is fine. GWFs don't have dodges or other things to help them combat CC. If they were to adjust GWFs I would say they look at IBS. As for Threatening Rush it does appear too easy to spam, although I see the GWF need for a gap closer. I would say it needs a cooldown but that seems strange for an at-will.
No.... GWFS are just fine as is....
What needs to be looked into is the restoration of your Single Target control powers that were NERFed in PvP.
THAT was your method of countering his Unstoppable and knockdown/prones. It Was to use Repel to push him away OR paralyze him or immobilize him.
Once they made the stupid mistake of removing those things from your side of PvP, or shortening their duration to almost nothing, suddenly you're in shoes where all his work... and none of your counters to anything he does works.
Well no wonder you can't compete anymore, and he looks like a GOD.
What REALLY needs to be looked at is the absolute reversal of all the classes PvP nerfs up to this point, as THAT is what caused the current situation... GWFs are just fine and have always been.
Whats MISSING... is your COUNTER to all of their things... so of course... you're now in shoes where all theirs works... none of yours does.
Why the hell you would want to PvP in those shoes in beyond me... I'd just walk away and let them stroke themselves off alone if I were you. Because obviously you're not allowed to participate in PvP... they are.
Another thing that needs a good reversal is the Rogue damage nerfs. These were stupid and short sighted. They would be able to compete with any GWF if they had their damage back.
There was NEVER anything wrong with the GWF powers and abilities... what you ran into was some idiot that did not understand the REAL balance of the classes and suddenly assumed that EVERYONE should fight toe to toe like a GWF...
... forgetting that the other classes are not designed to handle that kind of tank battle.... IT THEY'RE NOT A TANK...
Yes it annoys me.... they created an unbalanced issue, where there was none before through this short sighted lack of understanding.
Its called... shoes of your own making.
When Neverwinter started, I recall GWF was one of the weakest dps classes.
Do you want to undo all the buffs which GWF has gotten?
Shall we return all classes to their condition on launch day or to the first day of beta or ....??
Here's an old thread about how weak GWF were.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?330752-Great-Weapon-Fighter-buffs-still-not-enough
Errmm... not sure how you got that Idea,
I actually said the opposite... I said that GWFs are just fine and doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing...
...... but the OTHER classes nerfs need to be revoked that's what caused the GWF to look like a God while the others are floundering.
If they'd ONLY buffed the GWF... guess what, everything would be just fine... but no... they nerfed everyone else while simultaneously buffing GWF... that was a combination for disaster... the one we have now.
So the solution is... revoke the nerfs on the other classes. They were an obvious mistake at this point.
No reason to Nerf ANYTHING on the GWF... its FINALLLY doing what it was supposed to be doing in the first place.
I'm of the opinion that no "toning down" is needed.
Because this entire situation would NOT be happening right now... if they had NOT nerfed the other classes.
Ergo... it was nerfs that caused this entire situation.... ergo... no nerfing will solve it... just like last time... its only going to make the situation WORSE...
Time to revoke the other nerfs... they were obviously a bad idea at this point and a SERIOUS miscalculation on the part of the Devs.
In regards to the theory of "buff others rather than nerf Unstoppable", I don't know. Even if they restore some cc duration for CW (ofc we need that), I doubt it will change much. Every time GWF take enough damage, they go into cc immunity + self heal + damage resistant mode again, and then CW have to start dodging again. You never see their hp drop below 50%. And you know who will be down after a few rounds.
Nothing to see here.
personally i would agree but.....
^for all intents and purposes, gwfs are the king of everything but aoe dps
I think it should have stacks, like... idk... 3 stacks at 5 seconds cooldown each maybe. Its not even short range, that thing has a really long range and yet no stacks or cooldowns. Imagine if TR had Cloud of Steel without any cooldown or stacks... it would be so OP! Why don't they have it on GWF as an insane gap closer wo something that already runs and has CC immunity?
In the post-thousandth the player wins a house. enjoy the promotion.
nerf gwf and nerf myself. I am very beautiful and and I can cook. are many qualities for a man.
Look, the reason why your CW is getting wtfpwned is because you do the same <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> every other CW does. You burn all your stupid dodges going backwards while the GWF just uses TR to close. He waits, waits, wait until you burn all your dodges, then does take down and wtfpwns you. Sometimes if he's feeling spunky he sprints up a few feet and then tags you with FLS at the end of your teleport immunity frame just to screw with you.
I hardly ever see CW's in pvp anymore that have slotted the right skills to deal with GWF's and I don't know why since they all uniformly QQ about them non-stop. (Actually, I do know why, it's because despite all the complaining, they really want to kill HR's and TR's super badly).
your just raging because CW need work in pvp tenacity is the major problem it made all classes tougher to cc and dmg in general. remember any nerf to a class affects pvp and pve of which the pve community is larger. and they need there GWF's as is.
if you ask me the cw needs shield to also include a refreshing buff similar to fox shift so at full the shield will negate 1 attack and then function as is. that combined with the teleports and back peddling could make a CW a contender in pvp again.
nothing to see here.
Haha this is so good. DC got nerfs in every patchs and every modules. Back to square one and you will cry abt DC opness. Still waiting for buffs every module, but we always get a nerf no matter what. GWF get their buffs and i am hoping our buff isn't too late.
DC innocent nerfed history:
Beta till M1:
DC no need drink potions, too OP>>> Righteousness (also affects boons, tranquility, and weapon enchantments like lifedrinker)
TR too OP in early beta>> TR damage nerfed>> DC double Astral Shield nerfed.
TR and CW too squishy in pvp>> DC HoF damage nerfed.
DC healing too much in pve>> FF healing nerf to bottom>> All clerics get mad as it heals nothing>> Devs cant withstand the pressure from the community>> raise the healing amount a little but still lower than original.
M2:
Gctrl's Sent Cleric too OP in pvp>> Healing Depression + Shadowtouched
GWF too OP in M2>> Healing Depression + Anointed Champion paragon nerfed (which is a temp hp focused paragon)
M3:
We introduced PvP campaign!!! Cheer!!!
1. Double kill + Triple kill in every branch of pvp
2. Killing 1000 GG npc
3. Killing 50 enemies in 20 secs after capture a node
4. Exclusive costume for those who cleared all 30 pvp tasks
5. Leaderboard: Never calculate and account the amount of heals and how many times we save a person from death
6. No Float tactic!! 8 sec combat timer before you can ride your mount.
7. No escaping from GWF and TR, you cant dodge and ride your mount.
8. Righteousness rework (FF and AS heal decreased by 40%)
9. Fixed cast-tab sunburst for LS but implemented broken Linked Spirit with AS
I wonder why we always be nerfed although we are innocent and majority of us are poor performing in comparison to other class?? Maybe it is not intended but we are just bad luck but how to explain these things that had happened?? Bad luck in a row for 2-digits number of times??
Don't remove or rework unstoppable, i doubt we clerics will be nerfed again. Keep it the same. We are innocent.
well if you want to pen and paper the classes to death perhaps the CW should have a set number of spells per day.
the cleric should be allowed to have heavy armor, a shield and heals that well heal but also have a set number of spells per day
trickster rogues would not be able to just slip back after hiding in shadows because once your spotted you cant rely on it to bail you out and they would have a fixed number of knifes to throw. oh and lets bring encumbrance rules in so if you don't have the str score to carry your fixed number of ammo. will be fun watching TR and HR slowly drudging around because they cant carry the hundreds of knifes and arrow's nessary for a single pvp match.
meanwhile the GF and gwf can have a hay day because the thing about the pen and paper rules a melee weapon never runs out of ammo.
you say its not fare that GWF can knock you over and hit you when your down as a cw your a scrawny book worm in a bathrobe facing off against a 6 foot bully in heavy armor who just hit u in your face with the pommel of a sword that is as big and probably weighs as much as u?
people need to stop pointing fingers at classes and saying that needs to be nerfed that's op and they need to start saying this is how you need to change my class to make it a contender.
in pvp prior to tenacity CW were gods and even GWF would have a hard time killing them because after unstoppable stopped you were lifted into the air chocked then frozen and then pushed away and if I chose to continue to try and engage the wizards would be charging head long into magic missiles and or freezing rays. and many times the CW would win.
Every GWf can argue back and forth for each but all together?And in an almost spammable type of action?
Unstoppable gives:
CC Immunity.Perhaps the most significan't for all
Increased DR.Not 5/10%...but 40-50%.So Durinh unstoppable a GWF can go to 90-100% DR.Pretty simple :realistically immune to damage.
Temporary hp.In pve is a large margin in pvp after HD is small but every small counts.
Faster and less damagefull attacks.But because speed gained is greater than damage lost in the end the faster speed attacks lead to increased damage output.Combine with Life steal than nearly all GWF armors have....to achieve self heal.
Sprint.A Gwf can chose or not to disengage from a fight to drink a potion and return a new to an exhausted opponent.
This is a tab feature for god's shake.Just look what it gives.Even if unstoppable was a daily it would still be Op!!And it is a tab mechanic....
Every GWF can say for each of this some counter argument.But for all of this?The package is just extreme OP and made GWF the easiest class to play in NW.
The devs should have balance the mechanic during beta.They did not.Now it is impossible to change cause of the extreme big part the GWF community contributes to the financial outcome of NW.So Uustoppable is not going to be nerfed or fixed or balanced or whatever.
The problem is generally as i see it for the long term:
While GWFs are a major financial contributor to NW ,also are a factor that does not let the game base grow.And i explain:
Both in pvp and in pve they outpeform every class leading to CW/GWF parties.Every new class that enters the game after's 60s has a frustrating experience going into dungeons be it TR/DC/Gf/HR.
Cause the whole meta is now tailored to a CW/GWF type of play.And soon after the fresh 60s try the T2s they have such a hard time grinding and gearing that eventually leave the game.
I mostly pug in DD.TRs are practically in t2 under extinction.So few.Gfs better but still in dire situation.Dcs only cause the queue demands them.HRs?Nobody wants them.
one of you might ask?"why they don't roll a GWf?".First of all this a MMORG ,action MMORG but still MMORG.There is roleplay involved .Some people come here cause they want to be assasins ,or knights with sword and shield or Drizzt type rangers.They do not like to be barbarians two handed erserkers.So for them this is not an option.And since NW does not let them enjoy leveling their roleplay toon(cause in the end it feels useless and underperforming) they leave for other MMOs.
GWFs keep the game alive but also contraint from growing.It is a stalemate.
And that in a nutshell, is why GWF and CW are top pve classes as well, nicely put.
Nice on the HR summary too.
Very poor team balance when it requires multiple members to take out a single enemy. 2-3 GWF can keep an entire team busy while the rest are on capping business.
It WAS the issue back in mod2 where it granted a huge temp HP -- which is conceptually the same thing as damage shielding. When this trait is combined with regen which also WAS a way too big factor in PvP (for all classes alike), as well as increased DR, it would effectively make the class unkillable. Add to that a CC immunity on top of it. After the global nerf to healing effects, it still makes for a strong, solid GWF build but not as "unkillable" as they used to be.
The real problem is that the class is way too mobile.
■ Threatening Rush is simply bullshi* in every sense of the word.
■ So is sprint.
■ CCs like Roar and FSL are dealt as ranged AoEs ... really???
■ CCs like Takedown activation super fast
I mean, if they gave TR Dazing Strike an activation time time for fear of it being too powerful and advantageous, then what's the frickin' excuse for not giving one to Takedown, the fastest activating CC, a knock-prone type at that, on a melee class that is both the toughest in defense as well as hits the hardest in offense at the same time?? Gimmick?
All of the above makes it impossible for any ranged classes to kite a GWF. This is the real problem. Unstoppable already activates almost back to back, the downtime being less than 5 seconds if GWFs are receiving damage. The CC immunity should be the only tool they need to attempt to close distance.
Instead, once Unstoppable activates they close in to melee range within like what, 2 seconds? 3? The rest of the duration they just pour down on you a barrage of CCs which most of them don't even require melee range.
I can guarantee if they change all of GWF CCs to melee range as it should be, nerf Threatening Rush or change it into an encounter like they did to the TRs, greatly increase stamina consumption on sprint, and things will be almost perfectly balanced while leaving the damage, defense, and Unstoppable activation rate untouched for GWF players. Under these line of changes, the GWFs would gain CC immunity as well as all the bonuses when Unstoppable is activated, but that will not change the distance between him and his target so easily.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
knocking someone down is not a precision act, it is in fact a shown of brute force so right there your argument falls apart, if it was a trip you'd have a leg to stand on but it's not it's smacking someone on the head so they'd go down.
also dex, you know the thing that actually measure precision is one of gwf fighters secondary abilities... meaning your supposed to give it some focus.
and in older editions barbarian which you say gwf are, get feats like uncanny dodge ad trap sense, both which it shares with rouges. for free, by leveling. so they are a dex class which means they are a precision class.
any idiot can shrug off pain which cover a good bit of what put you on the ground so you can die from whatever actually kills you in the long term. in game game mechanics that would me ether be temp hp or a small heal.
I'd prefer temp but let get real the only real heal restoring strike is not strong enough to get your panties in a bunch over.
and don't forgive cw/hr/tr are all squishy and supposed to go down fast if someone gets close to them. and tanking is one of gwf roles. and what what tank can't shrug control effect so they can keep tanking.
and just for fun I'll leave this
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Barbarian
note the part about " an excellent ability to absorb damage" and "unusually high hit points for your role"
They can't hide the truth now.
GWF-TR-HR are totally OP for PVP domination.
survivability, speed-mobility, stealth, immunity,single target dammage and resist control give them an absolute advantadge for this kind of PVP and it's worst since the mount nerf.
Rest is atm useless for domination.
So
1/Stop bringing to us moore content about domination should be a first step.
2/Stop with little balance changing nothing and bring on the table a real change to balance magical class and physical class.
3/Remoove all form of immunity for control and make a difference between magical dammage source and physical dammage source, split the defense in the same way, magical defense, physical defense.
4/Put on the table some real tools to counter stealth, with new class, new toys or powers.
5/Nerf all active or passive powers allowing an increase of speed in PVP domination.
6/Reduce the effect of deflection there are already the AC,the defense and HP for tanky build.
in short, you are a CW, aint ya.