What for am i supposed to make an old way looking drow? I can't do such a thing cause the game art style changed. so does CC function set.
Get over it already. U get game update u get new CC. U do not have old model faces anymore. Now it's new one and if u are interested u just need to spend some time exploring it. Me interested, i find it at least OK..not perfect, not even awesome, but it is hard 4 out of 5....imho...
And u keep on blaming developers fo posting old model as an advertisement in the new reliesed patch...that's a complaint with no point seriously.
I'll make all characters with new CC and post em here, just to prove that it's ok to go with it and leave old model sets behind.
Yes, and your point is? I don't find them OK, or passable, many others also, something you seem to have a huge issue with.
It's lipstick on a pig imho, glad it works for you, it doesn't work for me.
No, I have no intention in spending hours tweaking horrid models to get something semi passable.
Yes, I get it is your precious and somebody dared defile it so it's personal now.
Thanks, Sokolnichiy. And I just remembered someone said, that halflings look now like kithkins from Magic: The Gathering. I agree, I have a kithkin tribal deck and the similarities are striking. Maybe in the future both races will get merged? Or maybe it's just a coincidence? I'm intrigued!
Actually, I don't really believe that the races will become one, simply because we're talking about two different settings. But it's still a nice idea.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
Thanks, Sokolnichiy. And I just remembered someone said, that halflings look now like kithkins from Magic: The Gathering. I agree, I have a kithkin tribal deck and the similarities are striking. Maybe in the future both races will get merged? Or maybe it's just a coincidence? I'm intrigued!
Actually, I don't really believe that the races will become one, simply because we're talking about two different settings. But it's still a nice idea.
They wont become one, that's for sure...but i guess there is some kind of art style unification going on in WotC chambers
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
Yes, and your point is? I don't find them OK, or passable, many others also, something you seem to have a huge issue with.
It's lipstick on a pig imho, glad it works for you, it doesn't work for me.
No, I have no intention in spending hours tweaking horrid models to get something semi passable.
Yes, I get it is your precious and somebody dared defile it so it's personal now.
My point is that all those people who "complain" are just too frustrated to try and make smth good out of what we have now. It is just laziness to explore the thing.
And kk there is no point to quarrel about the CC and new/old models.
I am not for or against the new stuff; new stuff is always welcomed. However, regarding the old stuff - those who want the old models and systems back may be forgetting a very, very important thing: tech.
It *would seem* (based on the selection system now) that the entire underlying code that is the character generator has been either rebuilt or otherwise drastically changed in a way that makes the old character models (read: MESH) unusable, at least in terms of being able to customize them.
I know most here may not have experience with 3D Modeling and all that, but basically what you see is created with a "mesh" - a large number of polygons attached to one another. When we select a character and start playing with sliders, what those sliders are doing is 'deforming' the mesh, based on repositioning polygon connection points - which reposition the polygons; warping the mesh.
I don't think this is about skeletons (those are used for animation), but that the underlying system for warping the mesh has changed somewhat - for example: I suspect they have added higher-resolution models (a *lot* more 'faces' per model) and if this is the case, the old sliders cannot work on the new hi-res models and the sliders designed for the new hi-res models cannot work on the old low-resolution shapes.
IF this is the case then it is an improvement, tech-wise, that the face (and maybe body) Mesh Models are now much higher-resolution, which allows for a lot more finite detail (it's even possible the Devs will add new sliders later on - because now they can). But it also means the new system breaks the old system, which is why the old models were removed from the character generator. However, those models already in-game and playing don't need to be changed. But visiting the Alterations will remove your lo-res mesh model and replace it with a new high-res mesh model, which will require the new adjustment system.
I do not have 'inside knowledge". However, I have 3D modeling and ray-tracing experience since the 1980's (anyone ever hear of "SCULPT 3D" on the Amiga? Yeah, did that.) - so I do know what I'm talking about. And I also must say I am seriously simplifying my explanation. Suffice it to say the Devs are likely unable to bring back the old models because the entire under-the-hood system has been drastically upgraded.
Anyone who has dabbled in 3D modeling knows what I'm talking about - even the consumer-grade stuff like Poser 3D demonstrates this when you try to load-up a version 2 model with aversion 5 model in the same scene: good luck with that.
My point is that all those people who "complain" are just too frustrated to try and make smth good out of what we have now. It is just laziness to explore the thing.
And kk there is no point to quarrel about the CC and new/old models.
Right, no complaint is valid, we are all just lazy and frustrated.
Why don't you start a thread "I love new character models" and let us see support?
And I am still waiting to see semi decent Drow or Elf, especially females.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
I am not for or against the new stuff; new stuff is always welcomed. However, regarding the old stuff - those who want the old models and systems back may be forgetting a very, very important thing: tech.
It *would seem* (based on the selection system now) that the entire underlying code that is the character generator has been either rebuilt or otherwise drastically changed in a way that makes the old character models (read: MESH) unusable, at least in terms of being able to customize them.
I know most here may not have experience with 3D Modeling and all that, but basically what you see is created with a "mesh" - a large number of polygons attached to one another. When we select a character and start playing with sliders, what those sliders are doing is 'deforming' the mesh, based on repositioning polygon connection points - which reposition the polygons; warping the mesh.
I don't think this is about skeletons (those are used for animation), but that the underlying system for warping the mesh has changed somewhat - for example: I suspect they have added higher-resolution models (a *lot* more 'faces' per model) and if this is the case, the old sliders cannot work on the new hi-res models and the sliders designed for the new hi-res models cannot work on the old low-resolution shapes.
IF this is the case then it is an improvement, tech-wise, that the face (and maybe body) Mesh Models are now much higher-resolution, which allows for a lot more finite detail (it's even possible the Devs will add new sliders later on - because now they can). But it also means the new system breaks the old system, which is why the old models were removed from the character generator. However, those models already in-game and playing don't need to be changed. But visiting the Alterations will remove your lo-res mesh model and replace it with a new high-res mesh model, which will require the new adjustment system.
I do not have 'inside knowledge". However, I have 3D modeling and ray-tracing experience since the 1980's (anyone ever hear of "SCULPT 3D" on the Amiga? Yeah, did that.) - so I do know what I'm talking about. And I also must say I am seriously simplifying my explanation.
Suffice it to say the Dev are likely unable to bring back the old models because the entire under-the-hood system has been drastically upgraded. Anyone who has fabled in 3D modeling knows what I'm talking about - even the consumer-grade stuff like Poser 3D demonstrates this when you try to load-up a version 2 model with aversion 5 model in the same scene: good luck with that.
Jesus, Lad, where were U all the way up this discussion ))
Thx, I totally forgot about mesh change explanation, however having game designer education Really totally forgot about it, taking it not from tech but design point of view.
Hope that all that u've written here will eventually explain all stuff to people crying for old model return.
Jesus, Lad, where were U all the way up this discussion ))
Thx, I totally forgot about mesh change explanation, however having game designer education Really totally forgot about it, taking it not from tech but design point of view.
Hope that all that u've written here will eventually explain all stuff to people crying for old model return.
It is "you", not "u", and mesh changes still don't explain horrible design tacked on the same mesh.
Yes, we get the causes, thank you, the result is still the same and unacceptable.
Yea as much as I don't want to accept it. I think the honest truth is what Soko and Sprite are saying. All evidence suggests a clear shift in art design in an effort to stay consistent to Hasbros own shifting style.
I don't like it, but I'm willing to accept it and move on. Cryptic is in no position to dictate to Hasbro. And they won't make any comments that will leave Hasbro in a bad light. So I don't honestly see any way this is going to get changed or reversed. At this point I'm just happy they didn't force the changes. Although there is still a possibility this might happen sometime in the future.
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truelokasterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1Arc User
As a friend said, make some kind of switch so we can create our character using either the old or the new models/customizations.
Later you could work on making both available at the same time, with the same customization options, or not.
Get the old complexion option back, stop ruing this game!
If you want to make a change like that you should put both, the new faces and the old ones, why to delete the other options...
GOD!
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited May 2014
Jumping to the next module without fixing things. Wait till august just for them to fix this unpolished mess is my guess....
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
Still waiting for an official reply from Cryptic/PWE, Also, if old and new are not compatible, we should be able to choose between then (yeah, that can be done) and most importantly, have access to the old templates if editing a character created with them.
I said decent looking female drow/elf and this one has exactly the same chipmunk face covered in melted plastic as the halfling female from couple of pages back.
Nice work with half profile and hair pulled back to avoid showing it is impossible to make a narrow-faced elf.
I looked back at these faces again as the first time I looked at the human faces I couldn't even recognize them as human (looked like some odd inbred mouse/human hybrid). I saw some other faces and I had no options to adjust anything to even come close to that so I looked back and now I see actual human faces. Was this some bug that caused me to have the 'mutations' the first time or was something changed? They are still too plastic and shiny but I can at least recognize them as what they are so I just wanted to add that they don't look anything like the first time I tried the new faces.
I said decent looking female drow/elf and this one has exactly the same chipmunk face covered in melted plastic as the halfling female from couple of pages back.
Nice work with half profile and hair pulled back to avoid showing it is impossible to make a narrow-faced elf.
Dude, you mad?
Have you ever played or seen drow in other games or seen d&d art concepts of em?
If it is your personal problem, that you can't make a drow of your dream world...then...i can't help it.
Have you ever played or seen drow in other games or seen d&d art concepts of em?
If it is your personal problem, that you can't make a drow of your dream world...then...i can't help it.
Nope, it is nobody's personal problem. And we would not complain that the new faces are ugly if not for the fact that the old ones were much better, more natural looking and we had more customization possibilities. Sorry, but faces you've posted really look like a joke.
I can see that many of you know a lot about 3D modeling (especially Angrysprite and Sokolinchiy), so I've got a question. What about the new halfling body, is it also a new mesh or maybe only the skeleton was changed? I can see that the body is not more detailed, every texture looks exactly the same, only the proportions were changed. I don't know anything about modeling, but I have downloaded tons of mods for Skyrim and the ones that changed the proportions were just skeletons. Are they easier to replace than meshes? Sorry for my lack of knowledge and basing my assumptions on mods for a different game, but it's the only thing I have experience with.
I'm asking that, because I've got a female halfling GWF. With the previous body, it was possible to make a semi-buffed look, with strong, muscular legs and wider limbs. Also, she had feminine curves the new model lacks (my waist and bewbs are gone ). The new body makes my character look silly, not threatening. I would really love an option to keep the old body and use the new faces, because now I actually think they can be prettier than the old ones, if you tweak them enough. I also noticed that my character's eyes are too big and nose is too small. And the neck, oh the neck! She looks like a giraffe. So, I'd love to change her into something prettier.
A little comparison, because the more screenshots, the merrier. The good thing about this new model are the elbows, they stick out too much in the older body. But (in my opinion, of course), the old body is far better for a GWF. Now that I think about it, the new halfling model looks more like a realistic human body, than any other race. But it's fantasy and I'd like her to have perfect proportions (again, in my opinion) she had before.
Oh, and thanks for your insight, now we at least know that going back to the old faces would be very difficult, if not impossible.
When a non-inert model is built (humanoid, animal, trees with moving branches, MONSTERS) the individual parts are usually created as separate models: a human will have separate head, torso, arms, legs and pelvis, possibly even a separate neck.
Attaching all these things together is commonly called "rigging" the model. This allows the individual parts to have separate "limits" placed on them, for example a head and neck can only turn so far, arms can only move or twist a certain way (but different from the head), etc.
So, when I (presume) the models were updated to high-resolution models, it is likely only the head model is high-resolution. The rest of the body may not be necessarily upgraded, but could have been reshaped a bit. I don't know for sure, but I suspect this is a case with what I am seeing.
A skeleton is kind of like a real skeleton - it is a set of digital "bones" that is attached to the model designed to mimic real bones - at least the basics: an arn will often have only two: one for the upper and one for the lower, the hand will have one, and finger may or may not have more than one. The purpose of the skeleton is so the modeler (or scene builder/animator) can quickly grab the bone and position it the way they want in order to pose the entire model. Inverse Kinematics allow the animator to simply grab the model as a whole and the bones allow the limbs (or branches of a tree, for example) to have "drag" on them, emulating a natural motion.
Skeletons are only for posing a rigged model, and are invisible otherwise, they do not have anything to so with the rendered (ray-traced, phong-shaded, or otherwise finished) look of the model.
What likely happened is that the heads of the Neverwinter character models have been upgraded to high-resolution mesh and attached to existing-resolution bodies. This way all the rigging and skeletons (and animations) already created remain intact.
As for the new shapes of bodies, such as the Halfling: Wizards of the Coast are literally 5 minutes from my office. I have friends who work there. Now that it's announced I can say I've known about the Tyranny of Dragons WotC Summer event for a very long time. Among this and other things WotC is also going through a 'reimagining' of racial qualities, including their looks and shapes and there is a big thing on Halfings alone.
I do not know if the new Halfling models are the end-result of this, but I am quite positive the Cryptic Modelers are working within a certain confine. In other words: to remain faithful to what is the *official* look of a certain class, Cryptic may (or may not) be working within established confinements regarding an overall look dictated by WotC or other official entity - even if all this is still in the early development stages.
I am not saying this IS the case, I am not saying I know what all these changes are in detail. I AM saying I'm familiar with the process and workings of the process, but my view is a bit more distant from details, obviously. And I still have to remain mum of some things.
And it's IMPORTANT that you, dear reader, understand that all my comments are my own, nothing official from anyone, it is my own conjecture based on what I do know, without spilling any beans that I'm not even supposed to have (I am NOT an employee of WotC and higher-ups might not be happy that I know some stuff I probably shouldn't. But friends are friends. LOL)
Oh, and though I might have a few friends at WotC - I don't know *anyone* at Cryptic or PWE - so I'm just as much in the dark on their specific shenanigans as you and everyone else are.
Thanks for the clarification. I hope that someday they'll give us race change tokens, because when I was creating my character, I didn't agree to play as a 5e halfling, I didn't even know that they were changing the design so much. The 4e was still the newest one and the halflings looked normal. Now I think I'd be much better off with a dwarf, they look so nice. They make me jealous.
Comments
Yes, and your point is? I don't find them OK, or passable, many others also, something you seem to have a huge issue with.
It's lipstick on a pig imho, glad it works for you, it doesn't work for me.
No, I have no intention in spending hours tweaking horrid models to get something semi passable.
Yes, I get it is your precious and somebody dared defile it so it's personal now.
Actually, I don't really believe that the races will become one, simply because we're talking about two different settings. But it's still a nice idea.
They wont become one, that's for sure...but i guess there is some kind of art style unification going on in WotC chambers
My point is that all those people who "complain" are just too frustrated to try and make smth good out of what we have now. It is just laziness to explore the thing.
And kk there is no point to quarrel about the CC and new/old models.
It *would seem* (based on the selection system now) that the entire underlying code that is the character generator has been either rebuilt or otherwise drastically changed in a way that makes the old character models (read: MESH) unusable, at least in terms of being able to customize them.
I know most here may not have experience with 3D Modeling and all that, but basically what you see is created with a "mesh" - a large number of polygons attached to one another. When we select a character and start playing with sliders, what those sliders are doing is 'deforming' the mesh, based on repositioning polygon connection points - which reposition the polygons; warping the mesh.
I don't think this is about skeletons (those are used for animation), but that the underlying system for warping the mesh has changed somewhat - for example: I suspect they have added higher-resolution models (a *lot* more 'faces' per model) and if this is the case, the old sliders cannot work on the new hi-res models and the sliders designed for the new hi-res models cannot work on the old low-resolution shapes.
IF this is the case then it is an improvement, tech-wise, that the face (and maybe body) Mesh Models are now much higher-resolution, which allows for a lot more finite detail (it's even possible the Devs will add new sliders later on - because now they can). But it also means the new system breaks the old system, which is why the old models were removed from the character generator. However, those models already in-game and playing don't need to be changed. But visiting the Alterations will remove your lo-res mesh model and replace it with a new high-res mesh model, which will require the new adjustment system.
I do not have 'inside knowledge". However, I have 3D modeling and ray-tracing experience since the 1980's (anyone ever hear of "SCULPT 3D" on the Amiga? Yeah, did that.) - so I do know what I'm talking about. And I also must say I am seriously simplifying my explanation. Suffice it to say the Devs are likely unable to bring back the old models because the entire under-the-hood system has been drastically upgraded.
Anyone who has dabbled in 3D modeling knows what I'm talking about - even the consumer-grade stuff like Poser 3D demonstrates this when you try to load-up a version 2 model with aversion 5 model in the same scene: good luck with that.
Right, no complaint is valid, we are all just lazy and frustrated.
Why don't you start a thread "I love new character models" and let us see support?
And I am still waiting to see semi decent Drow or Elf, especially females.
Jesus, Lad, where were U all the way up this discussion ))
Thx, I totally forgot about mesh change explanation, however having game designer education
Hope that all that u've written here will eventually explain all stuff to people crying for old model return.
Not sure about thread but.... u got your piont in it!
As soon as I get home from work, i'll try my magic on CC and maybe really create new thread.
It is "you", not "u", and mesh changes still don't explain horrible design tacked on the same mesh.
Yes, we get the causes, thank you, the result is still the same and unacceptable.
I don't like it, but I'm willing to accept it and move on. Cryptic is in no position to dictate to Hasbro. And they won't make any comments that will leave Hasbro in a bad light. So I don't honestly see any way this is going to get changed or reversed. At this point I'm just happy they didn't force the changes. Although there is still a possibility this might happen sometime in the future.
This is possible to be done, techwise.
If you want to make a change like that you should put both, the new faces and the old ones, why to delete the other options...
GOD!
Here you go man: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?671351-Me-love-NEW-CC-options-(CC-examples)
No, Sir.
Read the exact explanation here at page 16: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?663611-New-character-faces/page16
Still waiting for an official reply from Cryptic/PWE, Also, if old and new are not compatible, we should be able to choose between then (yeah, that can be done) and most importantly, have access to the old templates if editing a character created with them.
Here's why not: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?663611-New-character-faces&p=7959221&viewfull=1#post7959221
Presumably that's a joke?
I said decent looking female drow/elf and this one has exactly the same chipmunk face covered in melted plastic as the halfling female from couple of pages back.
Nice work with half profile and hair pulled back to avoid showing it is impossible to make a narrow-faced elf.
-cough-
Dude, you mad?
Have you ever played or seen drow in other games or seen d&d art concepts of em?
If it is your personal problem, that you can't make a drow of your dream world...then...i can't help it.
What part of poor concept art and even worse model implementation is so hard for you to understand?
You are the one who has huge issues with people not liking these models and no, we don't need re-educating.
Glad it works for you, it doesn't for many of us.
Nope, it is nobody's personal problem. And we would not complain that the new faces are ugly if not for the fact that the old ones were much better, more natural looking and we had more customization possibilities. Sorry, but faces you've posted really look like a joke.
That's fair enough but you can't hide a bad move behind "work in progress".
Even the concept art got bad reviews, naturally that models based on that will get equally bad reviews.
The logic would dictate to fix it but apprently the rule of the thumb is to re-educate the playerbase instead.
I'm asking that, because I've got a female halfling GWF. With the previous body, it was possible to make a semi-buffed look, with strong, muscular legs and wider limbs. Also, she had feminine curves the new model lacks (my waist and bewbs are gone
A little comparison, because the more screenshots, the merrier.
Oh, and thanks for your insight, now we at least know that going back to the old faces would be very difficult, if not impossible.
Attaching all these things together is commonly called "rigging" the model. This allows the individual parts to have separate "limits" placed on them, for example a head and neck can only turn so far, arms can only move or twist a certain way (but different from the head), etc.
So, when I (presume) the models were updated to high-resolution models, it is likely only the head model is high-resolution. The rest of the body may not be necessarily upgraded, but could have been reshaped a bit. I don't know for sure, but I suspect this is a case with what I am seeing.
A skeleton is kind of like a real skeleton - it is a set of digital "bones" that is attached to the model designed to mimic real bones - at least the basics: an arn will often have only two: one for the upper and one for the lower, the hand will have one, and finger may or may not have more than one. The purpose of the skeleton is so the modeler (or scene builder/animator) can quickly grab the bone and position it the way they want in order to pose the entire model. Inverse Kinematics allow the animator to simply grab the model as a whole and the bones allow the limbs (or branches of a tree, for example) to have "drag" on them, emulating a natural motion.
Skeletons are only for posing a rigged model, and are invisible otherwise, they do not have anything to so with the rendered (ray-traced, phong-shaded, or otherwise finished) look of the model.
What likely happened is that the heads of the Neverwinter character models have been upgraded to high-resolution mesh and attached to existing-resolution bodies. This way all the rigging and skeletons (and animations) already created remain intact.
As for the new shapes of bodies, such as the Halfling: Wizards of the Coast are literally 5 minutes from my office. I have friends who work there. Now that it's announced I can say I've known about the Tyranny of Dragons WotC Summer event for a very long time. Among this and other things WotC is also going through a 'reimagining' of racial qualities, including their looks and shapes and there is a big thing on Halfings alone.
I do not know if the new Halfling models are the end-result of this, but I am quite positive the Cryptic Modelers are working within a certain confine. In other words: to remain faithful to what is the *official* look of a certain class, Cryptic may (or may not) be working within established confinements regarding an overall look dictated by WotC or other official entity - even if all this is still in the early development stages.
I am not saying this IS the case, I am not saying I know what all these changes are in detail. I AM saying I'm familiar with the process and workings of the process, but my view is a bit more distant from details, obviously. And I still have to remain mum of some things.
And it's IMPORTANT that you, dear reader, understand that all my comments are my own, nothing official from anyone, it is my own conjecture based on what I do know, without spilling any beans that I'm not even supposed to have (I am NOT an employee of WotC and higher-ups might not be happy that I know some stuff I probably shouldn't. But friends are friends. LOL)
Oh, and though I might have a few friends at WotC - I don't know *anyone* at Cryptic or PWE - so I'm just as much in the dark on their specific shenanigans as you and everyone else are.