However, the removal of the options I've had and enjoyed since I started playing this game in Beta Weekend Three rubs me so far the wrong way that it actually predisposes me to dislike the new system. It is already fighting and assaulting me from the beginning. There are not new options. There are entirely different options. I cannot ever alter the appearance of any of my existing characters should I decide I want a different hairstyle. I cannot put a new hairstyle on one of my old characters, as doing so would force me to the new system entirely. I cannot create a new character now that will be in line with my existing characters.
If the devs only read a single post in this thread it should be the one by naicalus. He pretty much details every problem with the new system in a very rational and calm manner. This isn't even a matter of taste, of liking one look better than another, this is about the objective quality of the new models and about the fact that choice has been taken away, not added.
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strykewolf67Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
If the devs only read a single post in this thread it should be the one by naicalus. He pretty much details every problem with the new system in a very rational and calm manner. This isn't even a matter of taste, of liking one look better than another, this is about the objective quality of the new models and about the fact that choice has been taken away, not added.
Interesting, I didn't examine far enough; adding options is good, removing options is, generally, a bad idea.
So, an attempt to elucidate exactly why I don't like this new system:
First of all, the real 800 pound gorilla:
If they had simply left the original system in as an option, I would not care at all. ... Keep the new ones, some of them aren't bad at all, and people like them and should be able to have them. But I should be able to have the ones I like too.
Zebular, the overall feedback was negative while this was still in the mimic server and yet, with no previous note, they just implemented. "pronto!"
We would not have this level of noise if they just added new models and kept the older ones as an option.
definitely understood on the preview shard feedback about these changes, however development takes a long time from conception to the final product. in addition to that, forum feedback is a small percentage of all potential feedback as forum users only account for a small percentage of the player base. that's not discounting your opinions and it's not ruling out that your feedback may come into play towards future changes.
if the expectation is that feedback is given by a small percentage of the player base and changes are immediately made, then those are unrealistic expectations.
it's easier to get the product (that's been in development for 3-6 months) out there into the hands of the masses first and then tweak it based on feedback. any company that has time and money invested into something are going to want to make whatever it is they're implementing WORK... if they scrapped everything that got some negative feedback they would be out of business because they'd never push any new content out ever.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited May 2014
What's wrong with tiefling tails now? They remain pointed down while running and clip through the legs.
Devs do indeed listen but the result always seems to be monkeys paw,
We had asked for new hairs, horns, eyes, tats, and a wider array of slider effects
What we got was New stuff(yay)... with old stuff removed and a Different but just as narrow array of sliders. thus removing the ability to change small aspects like hair, or eyes without having to completely abandon how our character has looked for over a year.
I don't think anyone feels the new faces should be "scrapped" I think its more that people want both the old and the new options.if someone has had a face since beta weekend 1 they probably want to keep it. some people might not want their Halfling to have tiny feet but if they want to change their hair I guess they will be getting tiny feet.
People have been asking for a wider slider range since day 1 this change could have been the way to do that but instead of giving us wider slider effects we got a vastly different slider set that still all looks the same and generic just very different fro the old generic and the same, elves kind of went from Angelela Jolee to Sandra Bullek. both are very beautiful girls but not EVERYONE wants to look like them.
the best thing to do would be add back old options back in to the mix. or if that is to hard let people pick from classic or modern character design.
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calicotigerMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 7Arc User
edited May 2014
The problems I have with the changes:
Faces are very low on the head. It makes most of the hair look like it's perching way too high on the head, or your face melted half off and is covering your chin. Most of it can be fixed by sliding the eyes as high as you can (on female models) and adjusting the nose and mouth higher if you don't want your face to look too long (if you don't like that look). It still doesn't help for the curly style or the choppy long hair (both are still pretty high up on the head), but it makes the others look better.
Halflings.... why did you butcher halflings??? The faces are awkward (and I'm really irritated that I can't even sort-of approximate my halfling's original look), but I can learn to work with that or just wear a helmet all the time to hide her awful face. But their bodies.... They're awful! They have proportional body parts. Not human torsos with short arms and legs.
In general, I'm happy with the changes. But faces are really messed up and are slid down too far on the head. If you fix that, I'm hoping you give those of us who have changed our characters' looks a free token to fix it again so they don't look strange with the fixes. And halflings..... nononono. They don't need the kind of "love" that was given to them :-/
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syka08Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited May 2014
The changes kind of remind me of a comic story-arc I read a while back
As for anything actually constructive or otherwise closer on topic: Please offer a reason, in laymans terms, as to why one set of options was completely removed to apply a completely new set? The majority of requests were for expanding options, not scrapping the entire system and starting over. I'm sure reasons exist out there and I'd really like to hear them. Will we ever? There's a chance.
In the meantime, I'm going to reconnect with this webcomic I completely forgot about until reading this thread. Caio .
contents to be decided
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited May 2014
God, I cannot get used to it. I thought the blinking issue was bad.
HR's head is pointing downward, and it just makes elf heads look even more hideous.
My character looks fine looking straight ahead, but as soon as she's in-game with those looks she looks like a child with progeria with the head looking downward.
One of my biggest beefs with this game has always been the way the characters look. The hair specifically is horrible. When I first played the game in beta I thought the hair was a placeholder for when the artists get around to putting in the real hair. That horrible hair made was not a placeholder and I have hated it every since. I think it ruins the entire look and feel of the existing characters.
The new hair is light years better. The old hair looks like it was straight out of a game 10 years ago. The new hair is much better and in my opinion gives an overall much better look to the entire character. I'm not a huge fan of the ultra shiny, oily skin. The blinking is weird but will never ever get noticed outside of the character creation.
It would be nice to have the old faces with the new faces and all the hair options. Personally, I would like to update all my characters with the new look but I'm not interested in spending 2000 zen to change the look of my characters. It would be nice to get a one time option to update to the new look.
UPDATE
Here are two pictures of the old face and hair then new face old hair
Here are two pictures of the posture of the two different models
Notice how the second picture shows my character all hunched over. This looks to be a problem with HR and is very annoying.
I just think the new models are vastly superior in almost every way. Yeah the blinking is strange but is impossible to notice in game.
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isoplethMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 25Arc User
edited May 2014
I'm glad some of you are pleased with the faces and hair. Unfortunately I'm having trouble making anything new that I like. Halflings are right out, they are so utterly mangled. Humans are almost tolerable but then I spawn into the starter zone and it looks like a child's head on an adult's body..
Arg nothing I can do about it. Such a fun game, and I have my two characters with the faces I do like, so, I guess I'm lucky. I'm sorry to see that old style go though.
Halfling players can't say the same thing because both male and female, faces and bodies, have been mutilated so thoroughly that the only logical explanation I can come up with is that someone at Cryptic hates the race with scorching intensity. Well it wouldn't be the first time someone hated a small race. Tall and sexy or diaf.
She actually looks more like 6 or 7 to me, which would be fine on a small body but on a mature body it's pretty disturbing. At least to those of us who know what children's faces look like. Even 12 year olds are more mature looking. I mean, let's not kid ourselves into believing this was some kind of accident. All the faces have been de-aged into their teens and single digits - it's definitely catering to someone.. Minus halflings of course who just look butt ugly now, they got "special" treatment.
But sure, the faces are nice. I love my 6 year old's face, I love giving him a big smooch on the cheek everyday. Now everyone new and everyone who got a face respec in Neverwinter look just like him and his class picture!
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whatevermangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 12Arc User
I mean, let's not kid ourselves into believing this was some kind of accident. All the faces have been de-aged into their teens and single digits - it's definitely catering to someone..
Ah, Cryptik is trying to reach the coveted pedophile demographic? Sure thing, buddy. You sound demented. You also don't seem to know what kids look like. If you want to see an MMO with actual little girls in it go check out Tera.
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violetcrayonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 12Arc User
Ah, Cryptik is trying to reach the coveted pedophile demographic? Sure thing, buddy. You sound demented. You also don't seem to know what kids look like. If you want to see an MMO with actual little girls in it go check out Tera.
I know what kids look like, I have three. Besides I never mentioned the p-word, you did. As others have pointed out, in this very thread, Cryptic appears to moving in a jrpg direction, at least aesthetically speaking. It's fine for those who like a more childish look, but it's jarring to suddenly switch from one style to another.
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whatevermangMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 12Arc User
I know what kids look like, I have three. Besides I never mentioned the p-word, you did. As others have pointed out, in this very thread, Cryptic appears to moving in a jrpg direction, at least aesthetically speaking. It's fine for those who like a more childish look, but it's jarring to suddenly switch from one style to another.
Yes, you never mentioned it, except you used the word 'someone' in combination with italics and ellipsis to make it look ominous. I'm not a fan of the new models at all, but you were suggesting some kind of sinister motive behind the change and that's just going a little far. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
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violetcrayonMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 12Arc User
Yes, you never mentioned it, except you used the word 'someone' in combination with italics and ellipsis to make it look ominous. I'm not a fan of the new models at all, but you were suggesting some kind of sinister motive behind the change and that's just going a little far. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Well it is sinister. (Okay not as sinister as pedophilia.) It just really demonstrates a lack of communication, perceptiveness, acknowledgement, or just plain consideration.
I already had trust issues with this company to begin with, and I'm probably not alone on that. It's like.. here's a decent game - now let's see how fast we can alienate people and make it fail. Let's make the game one thing, then pull the rug out.
The removal of the old faces is like a symptom, or maybe just one battle lost, or maybe a drop in a bucket of other drops. You know what I mean?
Well it is sinister. (Okay not as sinister as pedophilia.) It just really demonstrates a lack of communication, perceptiveness, acknowledgement, or just plain consideration.
None of those things presuppose any kind of malicious intent though. I really don't believe that this is some ploy to suddenly appeal to a different demographic, these changes weren't even advertised in any of their promo material for Module 3. All this is is the devs trying to give the players what they asked for (more/better customization options) and either underestimating the impact of the removal of the old options or not thinking it through at all.
Given the seemingly rushed nature of some of the new options (clipping issues and other bugs) I would assume somewhere in the mad dash to get Module 3 out on a deadline this issue was simply overlooked. Is that a mistake? Sure. But I think the true test will be to see if the devs respond to the criticism and eventually reintroduce the old options along the new ones.
I agree that there are several issues with the new faces, like clipping, floating ears, but still I prefer them over the old ones, at least for elves and half elves, most old faces looked like eggs with a face painted on them, the new faces and options are much more different from eachother, the old ones only varied in eye size, height/width, and position of face features, now the options actually look like different faces from eachother.
I find it funny that some people are saying the models themselves look fine, but the glossiness of the textures is what puts them off. For me, its the exact opposite. I will agree that the male models look... "okay". I don't like the new style, but for the most part the male models aren't too bad. But all the female models look like they've been through multiple nosejobs and facelifts. That's what makes them look plastic.
On top of that, I feel like all of the characters are so much more... lifeless than before, partly due to the now small and squinted eyes, as opposed to the wide eyes that were present before. They look so emotionless to me.
Halflings have been touched on enough so I won't go there.
Female Half-Orcs look so generically pretty now, I've found it difficult to create a tough-yet-attractive looking Half-Orc female. It seems like it's either attractive or tough-but-also-butt-ugly. Maybe that's just me getting used to the new character creation though, I don't know.
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sokolnichiyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 187Arc User
edited May 2014
Guys yo!
I ve found concepts for the models we have now. and all i can say that there will be no returning to the old one. Shame but...the game is moving on just as planned.
Comments
If the devs only read a single post in this thread it should be the one by naicalus. He pretty much details every problem with the new system in a very rational and calm manner. This isn't even a matter of taste, of liking one look better than another, this is about the objective quality of the new models and about the fact that choice has been taken away, not added.
Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
Interesting, I didn't examine far enough; adding options is good, removing options is, generally, a bad idea.
Sarah Knightly - Co-leader; Frontier Explorers - U.S.S. Witchblade
Rias Gremory - Leader; Frontier Marauders - I.K.S. B'ullwinkle
You nailed, sir!
definitely understood on the preview shard feedback about these changes, however development takes a long time from conception to the final product. in addition to that, forum feedback is a small percentage of all potential feedback as forum users only account for a small percentage of the player base. that's not discounting your opinions and it's not ruling out that your feedback may come into play towards future changes.
if the expectation is that feedback is given by a small percentage of the player base and changes are immediately made, then those are unrealistic expectations.
it's easier to get the product (that's been in development for 3-6 months) out there into the hands of the masses first and then tweak it based on feedback. any company that has time and money invested into something are going to want to make whatever it is they're implementing WORK... if they scrapped everything that got some negative feedback they would be out of business because they'd never push any new content out ever.
We had asked for new hairs, horns, eyes, tats, and a wider array of slider effects
What we got was New stuff(yay)... with old stuff removed and a Different but just as narrow array of sliders. thus removing the ability to change small aspects like hair, or eyes without having to completely abandon how our character has looked for over a year.
I don't think anyone feels the new faces should be "scrapped" I think its more that people want both the old and the new options.if someone has had a face since beta weekend 1 they probably want to keep it. some people might not want their Halfling to have tiny feet but if they want to change their hair I guess they will be getting tiny feet.
People have been asking for a wider slider range since day 1 this change could have been the way to do that but instead of giving us wider slider effects we got a vastly different slider set that still all looks the same and generic just very different fro the old generic and the same, elves kind of went from Angelela Jolee to Sandra Bullek. both are very beautiful girls but not EVERYONE wants to look like them.
the best thing to do would be add back old options back in to the mix. or if that is to hard let people pick from classic or modern character design.
Faces are very low on the head. It makes most of the hair look like it's perching way too high on the head, or your face melted half off and is covering your chin. Most of it can be fixed by sliding the eyes as high as you can (on female models) and adjusting the nose and mouth higher if you don't want your face to look too long (if you don't like that look). It still doesn't help for the curly style or the choppy long hair (both are still pretty high up on the head), but it makes the others look better.
Halflings.... why did you butcher halflings??? The faces are awkward (and I'm really irritated that I can't even sort-of approximate my halfling's original look), but I can learn to work with that or just wear a helmet all the time to hide her awful face. But their bodies.... They're awful! They have proportional body parts. Not human torsos with short arms and legs.
In general, I'm happy with the changes. But faces are really messed up and are slid down too far on the head. If you fix that, I'm hoping you give those of us who have changed our characters' looks a free token to fix it again so they don't look strange with the fixes. And halflings..... nononono. They don't need the kind of "love" that was given to them :-/
http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/comic/and-were-back
As for anything actually constructive or otherwise closer on topic: Please offer a reason, in laymans terms, as to why one set of options was completely removed to apply a completely new set? The majority of requests were for expanding options, not scrapping the entire system and starting over. I'm sure reasons exist out there and I'd really like to hear them. Will we ever? There's a chance.
In the meantime, I'm going to reconnect with this webcomic I completely forgot about until reading this thread. Caio
HR's head is pointing downward, and it just makes elf heads look even more hideous.
My character looks fine looking straight ahead, but as soon as she's in-game with those looks she looks like a child with progeria with the head looking downward.
The new hair is light years better. The old hair looks like it was straight out of a game 10 years ago. The new hair is much better and in my opinion gives an overall much better look to the entire character. I'm not a huge fan of the ultra shiny, oily skin. The blinking is weird but will never ever get noticed outside of the character creation.
It would be nice to have the old faces with the new faces and all the hair options. Personally, I would like to update all my characters with the new look but I'm not interested in spending 2000 zen to change the look of my characters. It would be nice to get a one time option to update to the new look.
UPDATE
Here are two pictures of the old face and hair then new face old hair
Here are two pictures of the posture of the two different models
Notice how the second picture shows my character all hunched over. This looks to be a problem with HR and is very annoying.
I just think the new models are vastly superior in almost every way. Yeah the blinking is strange but is impossible to notice in game.
Arg nothing I can do about it. Such a fun game, and I have my two characters with the faces I do like, so, I guess I'm lucky. I'm sorry to see that old style go though.
Here is the new face and the new hair. I think this is a huge improvement.
Halfling players can't say the same thing because both male and female, faces and bodies, have been mutilated so thoroughly that the only logical explanation I can come up with is that someone at Cryptic hates the race with scorching intensity. Well it wouldn't be the first time someone hated a small race. Tall and sexy or diaf.
No offense, but she looks like she is 12
Thats fine if you like it. Though I would say I perferred the old hair with the new face.
Though ideally I'd like all the old stuff to still be there with the new stuff.
I'm not seeing it at all.
By human standards *maybe*. She is not human.
Princess Amber - DC
Shieldmaiden Amber - GF
Valkyrie Amber - GWF
Huntress Amber - HR
WTB Class Reroll please
She actually looks more like 6 or 7 to me, which would be fine on a small body but on a mature body it's pretty disturbing. At least to those of us who know what children's faces look like. Even 12 year olds are more mature looking. I mean, let's not kid ourselves into believing this was some kind of accident. All the faces have been de-aged into their teens and single digits - it's definitely catering to someone.. Minus halflings of course who just look butt ugly now, they got "special" treatment.
But sure, the faces are nice. I love my 6 year old's face, I love giving him a big smooch on the cheek everyday. Now everyone new and everyone who got a face respec in Neverwinter look just like him and his class picture!
Ah, Cryptik is trying to reach the coveted pedophile demographic? Sure thing, buddy. You sound demented. You also don't seem to know what kids look like. If you want to see an MMO with actual little girls in it go check out Tera.
I know what kids look like, I have three. Besides I never mentioned the p-word, you did. As others have pointed out, in this very thread, Cryptic appears to moving in a jrpg direction, at least aesthetically speaking. It's fine for those who like a more childish look, but it's jarring to suddenly switch from one style to another.
Yes, you never mentioned it, except you used the word 'someone' in combination with italics and ellipsis to make it look ominous. I'm not a fan of the new models at all, but you were suggesting some kind of sinister motive behind the change and that's just going a little far. "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Well it is sinister. (Okay not as sinister as pedophilia.) It just really demonstrates a lack of communication, perceptiveness, acknowledgement, or just plain consideration.
I already had trust issues with this company to begin with, and I'm probably not alone on that. It's like.. here's a decent game - now let's see how fast we can alienate people and make it fail. Let's make the game one thing, then pull the rug out.
The removal of the old faces is like a symptom, or maybe just one battle lost, or maybe a drop in a bucket of other drops. You know what I mean?
None of those things presuppose any kind of malicious intent though. I really don't believe that this is some ploy to suddenly appeal to a different demographic, these changes weren't even advertised in any of their promo material for Module 3. All this is is the devs trying to give the players what they asked for (more/better customization options) and either underestimating the impact of the removal of the old options or not thinking it through at all.
Given the seemingly rushed nature of some of the new options (clipping issues and other bugs) I would assume somewhere in the mad dash to get Module 3 out on a deadline this issue was simply overlooked. Is that a mistake? Sure. But I think the true test will be to see if the devs respond to the criticism and eventually reintroduce the old options along the new ones.
On top of that, I feel like all of the characters are so much more... lifeless than before, partly due to the now small and squinted eyes, as opposed to the wide eyes that were present before. They look so emotionless to me.
Halflings have been touched on enough so I won't go there.
Female Half-Orcs look so generically pretty now, I've found it difficult to create a tough-yet-attractive looking Half-Orc female. It seems like it's either attractive or tough-but-also-butt-ugly. Maybe that's just me getting used to the new character creation though, I don't know.
I ve found concepts for the models we have now. and all i can say that there will be no returning to the old one. Shame but...the game is moving on just as planned.