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CW class balance discussion
crazymikee
Member Posts: 694 Arc User
Seeing as this is my third topic in the matter, I hope atleast one developer will even glance at the title, although thats not likely to happen.
Currently in PvP tenacity ONLY affects CC powers, and it doesn't affect prone time. What really gets me thinking is the fact that the only class in the game that even has CC powers, without prone-ing people, are Control Wizard. (They have a daily and a single encouter that can prone but that encounter is literally the biggest ***** to use in a tense situation) So I have to think to myself, "hey crazy mike, why is it that they add a new pvp stat which only negatively affects a single class, and not all the classes abroad?" then I think to myself, "yea mike, that's a pretty good observation."
My point is, tenacity should affect prone time aswell as regular CC powers because:
-GWF,GF,HR,TR,DC all have at max one or two CC abilities that don't use prone and those abilities are never used in PvP, therefor to "balance" the tables against one another and the CW, it should only be fair that their abilities that affect an opponent should be reduced aswell.
-CW has 2 prone abilities and atleast half a dozen CC abilities which are all affected by tenacity reduction, which to be honest isn't balanced at all.
Example of abilities affected by tenacity by class:
Control Wizard: (6)
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
Repel
Icy Terrain
Ice Rays
Steal Time
Guardian Fighter: (3)
Griffon's Wrath
Knee Breaker
Flourish
Great Weapon Fighter: (1) (I don't have a GWF but I read everything on the wiki article and talked to a few GWF friends ingame)
Roar
tl;dr
Control Wizard has been virtually slapped in the face when it comes to PvP in any scenario, every single ability used by CW in pvp has been nurfed to virtually no Control time at all, thus making me finally put in my REAL suggestion:
CHANGE THE NAME OF THE """CONTROL""" WIZARD TO JUST WIZARD BECAUSE CONTROL WIZARDS HAVE NO CONTROL IN PVP TO SPEAK OF
mod note: due to the recent class balance changes coming with module 3, it is no surprise that a barrage of CW discussions have emerged. a number of CW discussion threads have been merged.
as has already been mentioned by the devs, CWs are being looked at and will be balanced however this is not slated for the mod 3 release.
therefore everything in this thread is theoretical and speculative. take it with a grain of salt.
do not reply to this mod note. if you'd like to discuss it, send a PM instead.
Currently in PvP tenacity ONLY affects CC powers, and it doesn't affect prone time. What really gets me thinking is the fact that the only class in the game that even has CC powers, without prone-ing people, are Control Wizard. (They have a daily and a single encouter that can prone but that encounter is literally the biggest ***** to use in a tense situation) So I have to think to myself, "hey crazy mike, why is it that they add a new pvp stat which only negatively affects a single class, and not all the classes abroad?" then I think to myself, "yea mike, that's a pretty good observation."
My point is, tenacity should affect prone time aswell as regular CC powers because:
-GWF,GF,HR,TR,DC all have at max one or two CC abilities that don't use prone and those abilities are never used in PvP, therefor to "balance" the tables against one another and the CW, it should only be fair that their abilities that affect an opponent should be reduced aswell.
-CW has 2 prone abilities and atleast half a dozen CC abilities which are all affected by tenacity reduction, which to be honest isn't balanced at all.
Example of abilities affected by tenacity by class:
Control Wizard: (6)
Chill Strike
Entangling Force
Repel
Icy Terrain
Ice Rays
Steal Time
Guardian Fighter: (3)
Griffon's Wrath
Knee Breaker
Flourish
Great Weapon Fighter: (1) (I don't have a GWF but I read everything on the wiki article and talked to a few GWF friends ingame)
Roar
tl;dr
Control Wizard has been virtually slapped in the face when it comes to PvP in any scenario, every single ability used by CW in pvp has been nurfed to virtually no Control time at all, thus making me finally put in my REAL suggestion:
CHANGE THE NAME OF THE """CONTROL""" WIZARD TO JUST WIZARD BECAUSE CONTROL WIZARDS HAVE NO CONTROL IN PVP TO SPEAK OF
mod note: due to the recent class balance changes coming with module 3, it is no surprise that a barrage of CW discussions have emerged. a number of CW discussion threads have been merged.
as has already been mentioned by the devs, CWs are being looked at and will be balanced however this is not slated for the mod 3 release.
therefore everything in this thread is theoretical and speculative. take it with a grain of salt.
do not reply to this mod note. if you'd like to discuss it, send a PM instead.
Coach Mike - 19.1k PvP CW
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
![http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]](http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]){kind=link}
Post edited by crazymikee on
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Comments
And then enjoy freezing ***.
I'd say lower the effects of tenacity towards CW skils
DC has never been able to come out alive in a 1 v 1 against CW. CW would always kill a DC 1 v 1 given enough time.
technically, there is the laughable .5 sec stun from divinity-boosted break the spirit.....actually that's just an interrupt. too short to even be called a stun.
not sure if slows from forgemaster's flame count but it's rarely useful
Our current issues:
Little control.
No more burst damage.
"Resistance ignored" (i.e. Armor Pen) not added to any of our stats.
Armor Penetration does not apply to many of our abilities.
No CC immunity (outside of Maelstrom of Chaos, which nobody runs).
Very poor defensive stats.
If I ran a PMvsPM Rainbow I would not include a CW.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
I can't post PVP videos but go into his past broadcasts on twitch (username Johnrainbow).
Go watch any in-house PVP videos (lemonade stand guild members playing amongst themselves).
This guy can't cap a node, dies immediately whenever a GWF starts getting annoyed and decides to go after him and is relegated into the support role.
The so-called "best pvp cw" back then constantly gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by his fellow guildmember lil steroidz in his latest vid. He then starts blaming his teammates for not protecting him but thats a side topic.
The point is, CW is laughable in PVP at the moment. Even elite CWs have severe limitations and handicap in what they can do in PVP at the highest levels. Hopefully, it gets a TON of buffs in the near future.
well the devs said they will be looking at CW in the future. Most people see this as a nerf anouncment, but it could mean they are also looking at balance when it comes to other things. Just have to do what you are doing. Suggest, argue your point, and wait and see.
That's rubbish! Why on earth was this left out?
Coupled with our bug list (check my sig file for the link) we've got some heavy things we're struggling against.
It's a shame there's not more separation between PvE and PvP. People look at the PvE damage and think we need a nerf, yet those who play PvP know there's a very different side.
Maybe they should change Orb of Imposition and double it's effectiveness. It's current +15% control duration seems pointless when our controlling powers like Entangling Force already work much less effectively against players than mobs. I doubt 1 second vs 1.15 seconds is particularly noticeable but 1.3 seconds would make a difference. Drop the damage of it if you like - it's meant to be a controlling power, not a damage power.
A CW can only get so low numbers if they are bad or if the teams are extremely imbalanced, and the CW needs to hold points instead of doing support. Getting a legendary emblem says nothing about a player's skill. All I personally had to do was whip my credit card and I had one on each of my 5 chars a bit later. The only "challenge" was making them legendary, a daunting task that took me a few hours of boredom, where my skills of dragging Rank 5s into little slots were shown as not being amazing.
But it's true, if I were to make a team from your guild, I wouldn't pick any CWs. I don't want them Repeling people from my IBSs and flurries, as this happened so many times when I partied with the "best" CWs from EoA.
Also prone IS affected by Tenacity. I think it was even in developer posts. Prones should be shorter than they used to, you have to work a bit harder for your combos.
It would be great however if ArP would be fixed for CWs. I might play mine a bit more. Bothering for too long with it nowadays when I can faceroll people on my TR and GWF and actually have fun seems unproductive, to use some beloved forum vocabulary...
This coming from a guy named "pronification".
Prones may be affected but they're still long as hell.
If people don't like the idea of buffing CWs, then prones should be looked at. They should be affected more severely by tenacity.
Making prones even shorter would affect my CW most to be honest. At this moment, the prones are just long enough for me to push the meatball on you as you are prone on the ground from the Shardslam. If they make prones shorter, I won't be able to push the meatball on people before they get up and dodge away. And to be honest, I don't know any good CW player rolling without meatball nowadays. It's basically a show of skill and efficiency and a great team helper and combo part. Might have to take it off when dealing with HRs, but then again, if you are attempting to solo HRs on your CW, then you're already playing it wrong.
You can do two things on your CW right now:
- complain in the forums that you need buffs
- learn to play meatball, make PvP friends, have some fun playing support. Don't pug, go in (semi)premade.
Lantiss understood the support part many months ago. He was a great player, in a great guild for sure. People that understand what their role is and fill it properly are the most useful ones, not those that try to go against all odds and play node capper and GWF killer while dressed in cloth. Even though, to be honest, Lantiss could pretty much solo many BiS melee/fighter types, but... why? When he could 2vs1 then way easier.
Anyway, while people ask for buffs here (which I kinda agree with, buff my CW please, I wanna play it more often, thanks!), I'll just go play and frustrate some people to death with my meatballs and chills. And I'll make sure I will always do this while in numeric superiority, so their frustration is even bigger
tada!
You clearly do not play premade at the highest levels. CW are always a liability in PM vs PM.
In fact, CW are much more powerful in PUG and in lesser competition since people don't always know to go after the CW
Isn't that what I said? Lantiss was severely handicapped due to his class and was relegated to support/get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> role. He knew despite his skill, he was no match and could only do so much in that game.
He understood that and even started to blame his teammates whenever the enemy GWF got bored of him using shard and started to go after him killing him in a few seconds.
Didn't I just show forth evidence of how he got <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by a single GWF? Ah well, reading is not for everyone.
Now you are stating that he could solo BIS meele/fighter types? You mean those who started playing the game yesterday and bought BIS gear on the auction house right? Is tier 2 armor and rank 5s, 1 artifact BIS to you?
Buddy, you seem to be playing at a lower league. Get better, start playing at the top end competition, then you will know what I am talking about.
Your entire post, no offence intented, is pretty much rubbish.
First do you troll the devs with your very first statement, then you claim nobody but CWs have control powers, then you want to ignore prone as a control power only to list three GF powers that use stun.
HRs apply roots, TRs often use some daze effect and clerics can hold you in place. I'd say all classes have CC powers and they all rely on them.
Further do you ignore that Tenacity not only effects the duration of control effects, but damage and critical hits, too. So it is not only CWs...
Honestly, it is hard to come up with more false claims than you did.
smoke bomb is immune to tenacity as it's a perma-stun for as long as u r inside it and very few rogues use dazing strike competitively.
most people just dodge cleric chains and the 2 classes u actually want to root have immunity. not exactly a cc clerics can rely on.
This does not prove TRs would not have control powers. The daze of the smoke bomb also stays on for a while when one leaves its area. This may or may not be influenced by tenacity. Secondly, one can dodge or block almost any attack whether one has tenacity or not. It is completely irrelevant. And thirdly, TRs suffer from tenacity not by a loss in control duration as a Control Wizard, but by the loss in damage and critical chance.
You may want to compare the critical hit chance of a TR with that of a CW and what a reduction of ~20% means for each class!
It's OK to be ignorant. My CW played (and plays) with and against the best PvP people in this game. So are my GWF and TR.
Lantiss was an amazing player. He was also a leader of his team. The only thing you heard from him is coordinating his team for maximum performance. CWs are handicapped by fighting on small place. As I mentioned before, their role is not of node holding. A tankier char stands on the node, the CW nukes from (hopefully) safety. I hope this is not hard to understand. Lantiss could kill GWFs if he could kite them all map, but where's the gameplay efficiency in this? Are you trying to make the CW into a tank?
So yeah. From playing at the top, I can SAFELY tell you that CWs like Sobek and AllT and others are a HUGE asset to their teams. L2P like them, and then QQ that CW is bad.
everyone lost dps and that is not really an argument. a rogue may have lost more overall outside of dailies, but % loss in dps is the same for everyone. wizards just got hammered more because armor pen doesn't help them as much. a rogue may have higher crit chance, but still doesn't mean tenacity affects them more.
chains is among the easiest to dodge but that was not my point. my point is that no cleric would depend on rooting someone except to keep them from running away. your point is that clerics actually rely on such awkward cc's. i suppose rooting a wizard/hunter that r probably at max range can be useful, but priorities tend to be to the immune classes in your face.
You dont have the credibility to say something like that unfortunately. Its obvious you have never played cw at high levels. My question is do you even play ANY class at a high level? No offense but your arguments are almost f2pma-esque.
Anyway I cited proof of lantiss having a very reduced role and getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> multiple times by his fellow guildmate. Doesnt make him any less of a player, I still consider him top notch but its a class issue. Keep making statement with backing it up.
You gonna show me a video of sobek beating a **** 10k GWF 1vs1 now I guess.
Yawn, go back to me when he beats a top gwf
If you want to be good in PVP as a CW, you have to be at the top of your game, be among the top 1% of all CW's in the game, be on a great premade team from a great PVP-focused guild, and even then your team will wind up carrying you to victory most of the time.
If you want to be good in PVP as a TR or GWF, you have to spend 5 minutes in the forums reading a cookie-cutter build and then you can join pretty much any PUG team and win.
Sounds balanced to me!
You seriously want to say a relative 20% loss is a relative 20% loss regardless of how high the absolute loss is? That's insane!
Also if you go back to OP's comment you can see he claims no other classes would have control powers. And you want to defend him even when you know he is wrong! That's just as insane.
tenacity's dps resist was just meant to slow matches down. whoever would win b4 would probably still win now, but everyone has more time to react and actually fight back instead of dying instantly.
he never claimed there were no other cc powers, but that wizard is the only class whose cc is actually hurt by tenacity. no other class actually cares about tenacity affecting cc as prones r the true cc, hunters with disruptive shot get 3rd place, and wizards in 4th. rogues/clerics r rarely gonna be relying on cc so it can be ignored for them.
All classes are "hurt" by Tenacity. Each in different ways. And, yes, Control Wizards with all their control powers do naturally suffer in the area of control duration.
And for the rest do I quote the OP: "What really gets me thinking is the fact that the only class in the game that even has CC powers ..."
It gets him thinking, he writes, too funny. *lol*
btw u cant use your pve thaum cw in pvp and then come to forums and say cw is to weak did any of even tried other paths and focus his abilty scrolls +race for pvp usefull stats?
The only game mode we have is 5vs5. You can be the beast GWF all R10s and emblem, and you won't even make it to the point that Sobek and one of their HRs could be defending (just to give you an example of what actually happens in those high end games you seem to know a lot about).
What about F2P? I bought everything I have. I don't have time for farming, I have a business to run.