If you want to be good in PVP as a CW, you have to be at the top of your game, be among the top 1% of all CW's in the game, be on a great premade team from a great PVP-focused guild, and even then your team will wind up carrying you to victory most of the time.
If you want to be good in PVP as a TR or GWF, you have to spend 5 minutes in the forums reading a cookie-cutter build and then you can join pretty much any PUG team and win.
Sounds balanced to me!
Not quite there, but not far either. If you wanna be good at PvP as a CW, these are the things you kinda need to be able to fill:
- PvP spec (no, your Renegade or PvE thaum spec won't do well in premades)
- PvP gear (no, High Vizier don't cut it any longer, sadly, at least if you wanna stay alive)
- good enchants (I'd say a minimum of rank 8s and greater armor/perfect weapon if vorpal, GPF very good too. Recommended R10s.)
- high HP. Think about 35K+
- high regen. Think about 1500+
- recommended halfling char
Those above? The easy part.
Now the hard part.
- learn to play CW, this might mean you need meatball on mastery. It will take months of daily practice
- find a PvP guild to play with, or friends. This is kinda hard. High end PvP is filled with drama kids and all kinds of nasty idiots that think that intellectual disputes are to be solved with 1vs1s. You can be a very good player, yet still an idiotic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. There is basically one single PvP guild out there right now, and the rest are full of wannabes or pugs that think they can PvP.
- learn to communicate. To play a CW properly you need to talk to your team a lot.
Now that this has been clarified, TR or GWF are more faceroll than CW, but if you actually wanna be really good at them, then the skill requirements are quite high. Don't underestimate these guys just because they have an easier time in pugs. Pugging is meaningless.
Probably you say? Haha, now you are being uncertain. Go do the math!
All classes are "hurt" by Tenacity. Each in different ways. And, yes, Control Wizards with all their control powers do naturally suffer in the area of control duration.
And for the rest do I quote the OP: "What really gets me thinking is the fact that the only class in the game that even has CC powers ..."
It gets him thinking, he writes, too funny. *lol*
i can't speak for every class as i only played 1 pre-tenacity. find someone else if u want math on the other 5 classes.
for rogues, my lashing dropped from 14k to 11k but tenacity also came with the impact shot nerf and healing depression hurt life-steal builds. our dailies seem to bypass tenacity so we r still capable of spike damage as well.
prones have also been halved in duration but r still the best cc in the game. the halved duration on top of damage nerfs stopped a majority of the prone-kill combos, but the high end gwf's r still capable of doing it if u ever run into them.
however, wizards were simultaneously nerfed hard as they can no longer push me farther than a few steps with repel instead of to the other side of the map and forcing me to run.
a bunch of complaints from gwf's got roots nerfed so that ITC/Unstoppable can break free of it. but i think that was a little prior to tenacity.
for rogues, i actually see tenacity as a buff as the cc-spam is not much of an issue except from the gwf's/guardians. and clerics r hurt more by healing depression as tenacity is mostly a buff for them. there are so many simultaneous nerfs that tenacity actually helped everyone but wizards and the gwf's/guardians using 3-hit kill prone combos.
"My point is, tenacity should affect prone time aswell as regular CC powers because:
-GWF,GF,HR,TR,DC all have at max one or two CC abilities that don't use prone and those abilities are never used in PvP"
^he also said that which means he acknowledged every class having a couple but don't use it frequently.
- PvP spec (no, your Renegade or PvE thaum spec won't do well in premades)
Ok stop right there. I am not interested in doing well in premades. I don't care about premades. All I want is just non-soul-crushing-defeat every time that I play an occasional PVP match with a PVE-specced character but with PVP gear and tenacity.
Ok stop right there. I am not interested in doing well in premades. I don't care about premades. All I want is just non-soul-crushing-defeat every time that I play an occasional PVP match with a PVE-specced character but with PVP gear and tenacity.
That's all.
I'm sure you're exaggerating a bit here. What about those games where you did end up with PvP specced people and inflicted soul-crushing defeats against the other team? I'm pretty sure you didn't lose all games.
What I'm trying to say here is that pugging is random. As we all know, the matchmaking is of dubious quality and doesn't take into account VERY important things such as:
- team comp (the other team has 2-3 GWFs or GFs and some nasty DPS while you have 2 clerics... and so on)
- gear. Yeah, people keep saying that it's not that important, however I've yet to see a r8 guy crushing my r10 chars
- spec. People with squishy PvE chars are thrown in together with PvP specced tanks
etc.
So, to conclude, you CANNOT prepare especially for pugs. Why? Because in the same pool as you and other randoms are the big sharks. And, occasionally, you will be thrown in with them. To even stand a minute chance you need what I said in previous post, but not even that will help you against a full premade when you pug with randoms.
So basically if you wanna perform, you gotta prepare for the worst, because the system is not functioning as a normal matchmaking should, and you CANNOT rely on being put against a team at your own skill level. You can rely however on having all kinds of imbalanced matches, ranging from facerolls to those soul-crushing defeats you were talking about.
...
^he also said that which means he acknowledged every class having a couple but don't use it frequently.
No. His entire post is bait. It is a whine where he only sees himself with his CW on the losing side of the change. He refuses to see the effect of Tenacity on the other classes. He tries to render it as a change exclusively on CWs. We all know it isn't true. The purpose of his thread is to get sympathy from others, likely because of him loosing matches with his build after the change. Before the change could he use control powers more effectively. Like you said it - pushing players across half the map. He probably will have build himself a glass cannon and now does not want to gear up, but instead tries to whine about it on the forums. The fact that he lashes out on the devs first is pure win.
And that's the truth.
Stay frosty.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lantiss was severely handicapped due to his class and was relegated to support/get <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> role. He knew despite his skill, he was no match and could only do so much in that game.
Your just pointing out how someone played poorly in a single game. It doesn't illustrate anything except that it's happened before.
The thing people are overlooking here is that the reason CWs will be killed often, isn't because of how much easier is it to kill them, but because of how much more important it is to kill the CW over every single other class. The CW is the most disruptive class in PvP and it is often a priority to kill the CW first because of it.
One single PVP guild right now: Those who run with 5 Emblems.
The rest are just pugs or wannabees!
Emblems help Yet the guild I'm talking about rarely runs 5. One of their best HRs uses just epic waters and has only 10 Con and can eat CWs for breakfast (not that he has any issues with other classes whatsoever). The guild I'm talking about consistently wins against others, even if sometimes accidents happen.
What else is there to say? By now, even many pugs and wannabes have legendary emblem. So many matches I've been playing only to see emblem pop after emblem pop and none was from us, and the people using it were from relatively unknown guilds.
This is Neverwinter. Gear has nothing to do with skill, regrettably.
Your just pointing out how someone played poorly in a single game. It doesn't illustrate anything except that it's happened before.
The thing people are overlooking here is that the reason CWs will be killed often, isn't because of how much easier is it to kill them, but because of how much more important it is to kill the CW over every single other class. The CW is the most disruptive class in PvP and it is often a priority to kill the CW first because of it.
Well its not a single game, watch all his other videos. He gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by a GWF in their in-house games. By the way, I have brought up tons of videos debunking this myth that these top-tier CW can 1v1 any top-tier GWF/perma TR. I haven't seen anyone provide proof otherwise.
I disagree with your second statement. He was in a 1v1 situation with the GWF a lot of times and the CW lost.
CW is not the most disruptive class. Perma-TRs holding onto a node because nobody could kill him. GWFs with emblems tanking 2+ people are just as disruptive and arguably more effective since this is a node capturing game. I will agree though that *IF* nobody was attacking the CW, a CW can be as disruptive as any class.
The only game mode we have is 5vs5. You can be the beast GWF all R10s and emblem, and you won't even make it to the point that Sobek and one of their HRs could be defending (just to give you an example of what actually happens in those high end games you seem to know a lot about).
What about F2P? I bought everything I have. I don't have time for farming, I have a business to run.
I thought we were discussing CW vs GWF or perma-TRs 1vs1? When did it become toptier GWF vs toptier CW + toptier HR?
I didn't say f2p. I was referring to a user who just defaults to "L2P dude" when confronted with solid video evidence that tore his myths, heresays and arguments apart.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Emblems help Yet the guild I'm talking about rarely runs 5. One of their best HRs uses just epic waters and has only 10 Con and can eat CWs for breakfast (not that he has any issues with other classes whatsoever). The guild I'm talking about consistently wins against others, even if sometimes accidents happen.
What else is there to say? By now, even many pugs and wannabes have legendary emblem. So many matches I've been playing only to see emblem pop after emblem pop and none was from us, and the people using it were from relatively unknown guilds.
This is Neverwinter. Gear has nothing to do with skill, regrettably.
Who can't eat CWs for breakfast at level 60? They're awful.
These statements sounds very similar to the time when Greater Tenebrous was in full swing. All those who did not have Greater Tenebrous were pugs-who-were-terrible-at-PVP-L2P-n00bs! Curiously enough, when Tenebrous got nerfed, the majority of those rock star players left! Clearly they were too good for the game after the changes.
We ran into a premade not long ago. Four of them had Emblems. Guess who won?
Saying there's only one good PVP guild about as arrogant as you can get. I've been around since Beta and I've seen those players come and go.
I thought we were discussing CW vs GWF or perma-TRs 1vs1? When did it become toptier GWF vs toptier CW + toptier HR?
I didn't say f2p. I was referring to a user who just defaults to "L2P dude" when confronted with solid video evidence that tore his myths, heresays and arguments apart.
You're not supposed to 1vs1 people other than DCs and other "safe" people (ie, lower gear, lower skill) as a CW. This should be an important lesson CWs should learn.
I actually like the hero-type CWs a lot. They make things easier for my team.
About only one good PvP guild: it's personal opinion. It's also arrogant I admit it. But it's based on fact.
What's fact?
Mostly PvP behavior and win-loss ratio.
The only real competition to that certain guild is another one that has lots of talented players, but many of them are so rotten, they cannot spend a single day without talking sh****t and inflating egos everywhere. Then there are another 2 "entry-level" guilds who are nice to be in to see how it goes, but they fall apart in any serious premade against the top dogs, and I mean A-Squad vs A-Squad. Gear is no longer an argument, multiple people from all these guilds have chars with Rank 10s in utility slots and legendary artifacts/Perfects.
The best thing about that certain top guild? They manage to keep it classy most times.
You're not supposed to 1vs1 people other than DCs and other "safe" people (ie, lower gear, lower skill) as a CW. This should be an important lesson CWs should learn.
If the main PVP game was the 20vs20 gauntylgrym style, then you MAY have a point.
The current PVP meta is a lot of 1vs1 node control. If you are unable to do this, then you have a limited and reduced role immediately. Now, add another fact that CW are squishier than DC, GF, HR, TR, GWF and you have a class-imbalance.
If the main PVP game was the 20vs20 gauntylgrym style, then you MAY have a point.
The current PVP meta is a lot of 1vs1 node control. If you are unable to do this, then you have a limited and reduced role immediately. Now, add another fact that CW are squishier than DC, GF, HR, TR, GWF and you have a class-imbalance.
Little control.
No more burst damage.
"Resistance ignored" (i.e. Armor Pen) not added to any of our stats.
Armor Penetration does not apply to many of our abilities.
No CC immunity (outside of Maelstrom of Chaos, which nobody runs).
Very poor defensive stats.
If I ran a PMvsPM Rainbow I would not include a CW.
BINGO! The glass cannon has become a glass pea-shooter. In my opinion, the wizard has become the most difficult PvP class in the game. To be successful, you will need to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent at all times. While other classes allow for mistakes, misclicks, and mishaps, any of these from a wizard will result in an immediate, inescapable death.
It's simply too difficult to be 10 steps ahead of skilled PvP players which is why there is no room for wizards in competitive PvP.
While changes to any of the 6 things listed in the quote would be largely beneficial towards evening the scales, what wizards really need is a new paragon which is oriented towards defense.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
BINGO! The glass cannon has become a glass pea-shooter. In my opinion, the wizard has become the most difficult PvP class in the game. To be successful, you will need to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent at all times. While other classes allow for mistakes, misclicks, and mishaps, any of these from a wizard will result in an immediate, inescapable death.
It's simply too difficult to be 10 steps ahead of skilled PvP players which is why there is no room for wizards in competitive PvP.
While changes to any of the 6 things listed in the quote would be largely beneficial towards evening the scales, what wizards really need is a new paragon which is oriented towards defense.
This is a somewhat narrow-minded view, sorry.
I play with a GF and I like having a CW on my team who has got my back. As a tank do I not have the damage of a CW, and a CW does not have my tank. As a GF can I stun players, kick them around and put myself into the direct line of an attack to shield others. Having a CW in my team who stands behind me and who puts the hammer down on targets makes it a great team.
To demand more tanking for a CW, and I am sure a little won't hurt either, is simply wrong, because you are a team and not a single player. People here seem to think it is all just a 1v1, and I do see players often ask for 1v1 when it is a 5v5.
Cryptic can do a lot, but they cannot fix bad teamwork.
If every class is imbalanced, then you wouldn't see almost all top PVP players playing GWF and TRs (with a few going into HRs).
As far as CWs go, I've cited many videos proving my claims and "top PVP CW" getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by their GWF guildmate on multiple matches.
On a sidenote, its funny seeing this same Lantiss guy get owned in their next in-house PVP game by the same guildmate this time playing a GF instead of his main GWF. Wait, that's not funny
I play with a GF and I like having a CW on my team who has got my back. As a tank do I not have the damage of a CW, and a CW does not have my tank. As a GF can I stun players, kick them around and put myself into the direct line of an attack to shield others. Having a CW in my team who stands behind me and who puts the hammer down on targets makes it a great team.
To demand more tanking for a CW, and I am sure a little won't hurt either, is simply wrong, because you are a team and not a single player. People here seem to think it is all just a 1v1, and I do see players often ask for 1v1 when it is a 5v5.
Cryptic can do a lot, but they cannot fix bad teamwork.
Well, a big problem is GWFs and stealth TRs with good rotations are relatively immune to prones most of the time. You have to change some mechanics for your point to be viable and for this tanking in PVP thing to work.
Cryptic can do a lot, but they cannot fix bad teamwork.
I'm sorry. I don't know what level of competition you are referring to. Probably middling. I am referring to the highest levels of PVP through my examples and evidence.
There people are on teamspeak, are well-geared, are in the top pvp guilds and are communicating. I was watching one of Synergy's best GWF stream an in-house PVP match and their CW had an abysmal 9-39 record. She wasn't really of any help. She spent most of her time dodging and running away from 17k emblem GWFs chasing her. I believe the VOD was from 2 nights ago.
There are 3 nodes and only 5 players. You WILL encounter a lot of 1v1 situations. If you cannot perform that task, you waste your time running around, fleeing from death, waiting for a teammate to come help and not capping.
If the main PVP game was the 20vs20 gauntylgrym style, then you MAY have a point.
The current PVP meta is a lot of 1vs1 node control. If you are unable to do this, then you have a limited and reduced role immediately. Now, add another fact that CW are squishier than DC, GF, HR, TR, GWF and you have a class-imbalance.
If your team is good, it will create 2vs1 situations where DPS can clear nodes fast. This is where CWs come into place.
As I said:
You wanna embrace support role and have fun playing? Great choice.
You wanna spend time in the forums asking for buffs? Fine by me as well. I like my CW and want it buffed. But I wouldn't put too much faith into it happening any time soon. I've been reading these forums for almost a year and no "Please buff CW in PvP" topics, and they were MANY, ever got a developer response of any sort. Some posters did a great job at explaining CW difficulties in PvP, with lots of proof and arguments, yet NOTHING has been done.
Wait. Actually something has been done:
They broke the CW even further!
I remember the time I could wear HV and spec thaum and deal damage. My opponents feared me, and a meatball meant almost certain death for most of them. I could kite people for significant amounts of time and reggened like a beast at 2K of the stat.
Now I have to wear that idiotic tenacity set. My damage is as low as it gets. My CC is worse than my GWF, GF or HR - by far. staying alive is just as problematic as ever.
So the developers further destroyed the class in PvP instead of fixing it, after all the great posting about it in the forums.
I play with a GF and I like having a CW on my team who has got my back. As a tank do I not have the damage of a CW, and a CW does not have my tank. As a GF can I stun players, kick them around and put myself into the direct line of an attack to shield others. Having a CW in my team who stands behind me and who puts the hammer down on targets makes it a great team.
To demand more tanking for a CW, and I am sure a little won't hurt either, is simply wrong, because you are a team and not a single player. People here seem to think it is all just a 1v1, and I do see players often ask for 1v1 when it is a 5v5.
Cryptic can do a lot, but they cannot fix bad teamwork.
1. I don't mean to offend but I can tell that you have a very limited perspective on Neverwinter PvP. When balance is discussed on the forums it is almost always in regard to competitive PvP, where people are specifically built, geared, and prepared for the Arena. CWs are not putting the hammer down on anyone of equal caliber.
2. I didn't demand more tanking for CW. A paragon oriented towards defense does not mean a paragon where CWs can sit and absorb tons of damage. All classes have a means of defending themselves without it being considered "tanking" ie. stealth, immunity, mobility, control, deception, etc. CW have very little access to any means of defense other than blink-and-run. A paragon path would be a great way to give CWs access to some survivability beyond just running away from everything.
--- Ranked matches need to be solo-queue only
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
1. I don't mean to offend but I can tell that you have a very limited perspective on Neverwinter PvP. When balance is discussed on the forums it is almost always in regard to competitive PvP, where people are specifically built, geared, and prepared for the Arena. CWs are not putting the hammer down on anyone of equal caliber.
You don't offend me nor can you tell about my perspective, because you know very little about me. I pvp 6-8 hours a day in Neverwinter. I have seen a lot of bad players, especially during the Arena Event hour, who just want to suck up some glory points. I do not care much about them unless they start ranting on the chat. Trust me when I say that it is all about good teamwork. There is no room for divas in pvp. If you think there is then that is already your problem.
2. I didn't demand more tanking for CW.
I am quoting you: "what wizards really need is a new paragon which is oriented towards defense." Perhaps explain what it is you demand if it isn't more tanking.
So I might have made a few posts that few seem to have interpreted as hostile to Control Wizards. Been playing today my GWF and during some faceroll duels with some CW that was courageous enough, I noticed one thing: my Takedown always gets reduced cooldown when I derp and miss. Basically, I'm compensated for my bad gameplay with yet another Takedown in 3-4 secs. This allows me to pretty much spam it around creating many opportunities for that crazy IBS crit that usually follows. This is obviously not the first time I've seen this, noticed it when I was in my level 20s months ago.
Then I watched my CW victim. He was actually one of the good ones, with meatball on Mastery. Sadly, he had huge issues landing it on me, because of several reasons: sprint, halfling, and FLS/Takedown. I usually wait for the CW to start the animation, and bam, FLS. The meatball animation is exceedingly long and cumbersome and quite easy to counter.
Almost each time I proned the CW, he would not even be able to push the meatball on me, as stopping from running away meant death (yes, he was halfling too, with PvP spec, r10s, and 37K HP...). So he lost his spell like 80% of the times, and it went on cooldown, which should be around 13 secs.
So my suggestion is:
- if the GWF which is already a faceroll class that facerolls people can be compensated for when we fall asleep on the keyboard and slobber on the wrong keys and miss the Takedown... why not the CWs?
Reduce meatball cooldown to 3-4 secs if the CW misses it, I'd say no Shardplosion hit, reduce cooldown.
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pandapaulMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 424Bounty Hunter
edited April 2014
Is it just me or is every CW coming on asking for some sort of buff and use the GWF as an excuse
If you look at the preview shard GWF is getting hammered down hard.. An OP GWF in pvp may not even exist in mod 3...
The last class that needs any of their encounters buffed is the CW.. Seriously...
Seems though being gods in pve isn't enough for the cW player base anymore
Is it just me or is every CW coming on asking for some sort of buff and use the GWF as an excuse
If you look at the preview shard GWF is getting hammered down hard.. An OP GWF in pvp may not even exist in mod 3...
The last class that needs any of their encounters buffed is the CW.. Seriously...
Seems though being gods in pve isn't enough for the cW player base anymore
Yeah I have a CW too. And a TR. And a GF. And a HR that's not geared yet. I use my GWF the most though, and then the TR.
Maybe I should make clear this is a PvP related suggestion. I don't PvE with any of my chars. They don't even have augment companions, although I will be in for some serious shopping soon in this department. CWs might be OP in PvE, yet I don't see how this is relevant to PvP. Nobody truly cares about PvE.
As for next module, are you even serious?!? I copied my GWF there and I have almost 60K HP and am a machine of destruction. Took 6 guildies to take me down lol (I admit on using some PvE potions haha). But even without the PvE pots, I am way better than in live. It's OK to defend our class, but let's just not blatantly lie about it.
GWF is hellish in PvP in Module 3. You just need the BiS companions, the BiS gear and the BiS enchants
And this is without Black Ice gear. Cause there will be almost no stopping me when I get those things. Gonna have lots of fun trolling squishies that will not be able to even take down 10% of my HP.
Just as a sidenote.
I have the luxury of being honest.
Why?
Cause when they nerf a class, I'll just dump it in the "unused" bin and play the most OP, FOTM build that's out there. So... I can speak the truth, since it has no impact on me. All my chars are fully geared and always will be. No nerfs can hurt me.
Yeah I have a CW too. And a TR. And a GF. And a HR that's not geared yet. I use my GWF the most though, and then the TR.
Maybe I should make clear this is a PvP related suggestion. I don't PvE with any of my chars. They don't even have augment companions, although I will be in for some serious shopping soon in this department. CWs might be OP in PvE, yet I don't see how this is relevant to PvP. Nobody truly cares about PvE.
As for next module, are you even serious?!? I copied my GWF there and I have almost 60K HP and am a machine of destruction. Took 6 guildies to take me down lol (I admit on using some PvE potions haha). But even without the PvE pots, I am way better than in live. It's OK to defend our class, but let's just not blatantly lie about it.
GWF is hellish in PvP in Module 3. You just need the BiS companions, the BiS gear and the BiS enchants
And this is without Black Ice gear. Cause there will be almost no stopping me when I get those things. Gonna have lots of fun trolling squishies that will not be able to even take down 10% of my HP.
Just as a sidenote.
I have the luxury of being honest.
Why?
Cause when they nerf a class, I'll just dump it in the "unused" bin and play the most OP, FOTM build that's out there. So... I can speak the truth, since it has no impact on me. All my chars are fully geared and always will be. No nerfs can hurt me.
You realise this game is 80% pve and 20% pvp right??
So buffing your cw for pvp purposes will wreck the game for 80% of the rest of us
You realise this game is 80% pve and 20% pvp right??
So buffing your cw for pvp purposes will wreck the game for 80% of the rest of us
As the above person said gtfo
Yet they're focusing on pvp with mod 3. A class shouldn't be at a disadvantage against all others. They could always have separate balance for both.
Either take your own advice or realise that people have different opinions that you.
- signed someone who prefers pve over pvp anyway. Also I and probably the OP hasn't truly pvp'd on mimic so are stating on opinions on what changes he thinks should be made on live. Currently cws are OP for pve and UP for pvp, gwf are pretty good for pve and totally OP for pvp (if they have the gear). The other notably OP pvp character would be skilled perma stealth trs, though they could be compensated in other areas. Their pvp nerfs have also also affected TRs damage in pve.
Then I watched my CW victim. He was actually one of the good ones, with meatball on Mastery. Sadly, he had huge issues landing it on me, because of several reasons: sprint, halfling, and FLS/Takedown. I usually wait for the CW to start the animation, and bam, FLS. The meatball animation is exceedingly long and cumbersome and quite easy to counter.
Almost each time I proned the CW, he would not even be able to push the meatball on me, as stopping from running away meant death (yes, he was halfling too, with PvP spec, r10s, and 37K HP...). So he lost his spell like 80% of the times, and it went on cooldown, which should be around 13 secs.
Dude, you are talking like meatball is the only specc for the cw. Meatball cant beat most classes 1v1 anymore.
Also i dont know what level of pvp you are playing on, but i would love a 1v1 so you can shut up about cws already.
pm me with your handle or ingame name whatever
I actually did PvP quite a bit on Preview, but only on GWF. We went to test stuff with the guild, such as companions. The open world PvP will be a complete disaster and GWFs are even more OP as they are on Live on those conditions, with the right companions/spec/gear.
But the topic is only about meatball, takedown and cooldown reductions on miss.
Comments
Not quite there, but not far either. If you wanna be good at PvP as a CW, these are the things you kinda need to be able to fill:
- PvP spec (no, your Renegade or PvE thaum spec won't do well in premades)
- PvP gear (no, High Vizier don't cut it any longer, sadly, at least if you wanna stay alive)
- good enchants (I'd say a minimum of rank 8s and greater armor/perfect weapon if vorpal, GPF very good too. Recommended R10s.)
- high HP. Think about 35K+
- high regen. Think about 1500+
- recommended halfling char
Those above? The easy part.
Now the hard part.
- learn to play CW, this might mean you need meatball on mastery. It will take months of daily practice
- find a PvP guild to play with, or friends. This is kinda hard. High end PvP is filled with drama kids and all kinds of nasty idiots that think that intellectual disputes are to be solved with 1vs1s. You can be a very good player, yet still an idiotic <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. There is basically one single PvP guild out there right now, and the rest are full of wannabes or pugs that think they can PvP.
- learn to communicate. To play a CW properly you need to talk to your team a lot.
Now that this has been clarified, TR or GWF are more faceroll than CW, but if you actually wanna be really good at them, then the skill requirements are quite high. Don't underestimate these guys just because they have an easier time in pugs. Pugging is meaningless.
i can't speak for every class as i only played 1 pre-tenacity. find someone else if u want math on the other 5 classes.
for rogues, my lashing dropped from 14k to 11k but tenacity also came with the impact shot nerf and healing depression hurt life-steal builds. our dailies seem to bypass tenacity so we r still capable of spike damage as well.
prones have also been halved in duration but r still the best cc in the game. the halved duration on top of damage nerfs stopped a majority of the prone-kill combos, but the high end gwf's r still capable of doing it if u ever run into them.
however, wizards were simultaneously nerfed hard as they can no longer push me farther than a few steps with repel instead of to the other side of the map and forcing me to run.
a bunch of complaints from gwf's got roots nerfed so that ITC/Unstoppable can break free of it. but i think that was a little prior to tenacity.
for rogues, i actually see tenacity as a buff as the cc-spam is not much of an issue except from the gwf's/guardians. and clerics r hurt more by healing depression as tenacity is mostly a buff for them. there are so many simultaneous nerfs that tenacity actually helped everyone but wizards and the gwf's/guardians using 3-hit kill prone combos.
"My point is, tenacity should affect prone time aswell as regular CC powers because:
-GWF,GF,HR,TR,DC all have at max one or two CC abilities that don't use prone and those abilities are never used in PvP"
^he also said that which means he acknowledged every class having a couple but don't use it frequently.
Ok stop right there. I am not interested in doing well in premades. I don't care about premades. All I want is just non-soul-crushing-defeat every time that I play an occasional PVP match with a PVE-specced character but with PVP gear and tenacity.
That's all.
I'm sure you're exaggerating a bit here. What about those games where you did end up with PvP specced people and inflicted soul-crushing defeats against the other team? I'm pretty sure you didn't lose all games.
What I'm trying to say here is that pugging is random. As we all know, the matchmaking is of dubious quality and doesn't take into account VERY important things such as:
- team comp (the other team has 2-3 GWFs or GFs and some nasty DPS while you have 2 clerics... and so on)
- gear. Yeah, people keep saying that it's not that important, however I've yet to see a r8 guy crushing my r10 chars
- spec. People with squishy PvE chars are thrown in together with PvP specced tanks
etc.
So, to conclude, you CANNOT prepare especially for pugs. Why? Because in the same pool as you and other randoms are the big sharks. And, occasionally, you will be thrown in with them. To even stand a minute chance you need what I said in previous post, but not even that will help you against a full premade when you pug with randoms.
So basically if you wanna perform, you gotta prepare for the worst, because the system is not functioning as a normal matchmaking should, and you CANNOT rely on being put against a team at your own skill level. You can rely however on having all kinds of imbalanced matches, ranging from facerolls to those soul-crushing defeats you were talking about.
By the way, this is PvP, sometimes you just lose.
And that's the truth.
One single PVP guild right now: Those who run with 5 Emblems.
The rest are just pugs or wannabees!
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Your just pointing out how someone played poorly in a single game. It doesn't illustrate anything except that it's happened before.
The thing people are overlooking here is that the reason CWs will be killed often, isn't because of how much easier is it to kill them, but because of how much more important it is to kill the CW over every single other class. The CW is the most disruptive class in PvP and it is often a priority to kill the CW first because of it.
Emblems help
What else is there to say? By now, even many pugs and wannabes have legendary emblem. So many matches I've been playing only to see emblem pop after emblem pop and none was from us, and the people using it were from relatively unknown guilds.
This is Neverwinter. Gear has nothing to do with skill, regrettably.
Well its not a single game, watch all his other videos. He gets <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by a GWF in their in-house games. By the way, I have brought up tons of videos debunking this myth that these top-tier CW can 1v1 any top-tier GWF/perma TR. I haven't seen anyone provide proof otherwise.
I disagree with your second statement. He was in a 1v1 situation with the GWF a lot of times and the CW lost.
CW is not the most disruptive class. Perma-TRs holding onto a node because nobody could kill him. GWFs with emblems tanking 2+ people are just as disruptive and arguably more effective since this is a node capturing game. I will agree though that *IF* nobody was attacking the CW, a CW can be as disruptive as any class.
I thought we were discussing CW vs GWF or perma-TRs 1vs1? When did it become toptier GWF vs toptier CW + toptier HR?
I didn't say f2p. I was referring to a user who just defaults to "L2P dude" when confronted with solid video evidence that tore his myths, heresays and arguments apart.
Who can't eat CWs for breakfast at level 60? They're awful.
These statements sounds very similar to the time when Greater Tenebrous was in full swing. All those who did not have Greater Tenebrous were pugs-who-were-terrible-at-PVP-L2P-n00bs! Curiously enough, when Tenebrous got nerfed, the majority of those rock star players left! Clearly they were too good for the game after the changes.
We ran into a premade not long ago. Four of them had Emblems. Guess who won?
Saying there's only one good PVP guild about as arrogant as you can get. I've been around since Beta and I've seen those players come and go.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
You're not supposed to 1vs1 people other than DCs and other "safe" people (ie, lower gear, lower skill) as a CW. This should be an important lesson CWs should learn.
I actually like the hero-type CWs a lot. They make things easier for my team.
About only one good PvP guild: it's personal opinion. It's also arrogant I admit it. But it's based on fact.
What's fact?
Mostly PvP behavior and win-loss ratio.
The only real competition to that certain guild is another one that has lots of talented players, but many of them are so rotten, they cannot spend a single day without talking sh****t and inflating egos everywhere. Then there are another 2 "entry-level" guilds who are nice to be in to see how it goes, but they fall apart in any serious premade against the top dogs, and I mean A-Squad vs A-Squad. Gear is no longer an argument, multiple people from all these guilds have chars with Rank 10s in utility slots and legendary artifacts/Perfects.
The best thing about that certain top guild? They manage to keep it classy most times.
If the main PVP game was the 20vs20 gauntylgrym style, then you MAY have a point.
The current PVP meta is a lot of 1vs1 node control. If you are unable to do this, then you have a limited and reduced role immediately. Now, add another fact that CW are squishier than DC, GF, HR, TR, GWF and you have a class-imbalance.
Every class is imbalanced. Every class.
BINGO! The glass cannon has become a glass pea-shooter. In my opinion, the wizard has become the most difficult PvP class in the game. To be successful, you will need to be 10 steps ahead of your opponent at all times. While other classes allow for mistakes, misclicks, and mishaps, any of these from a wizard will result in an immediate, inescapable death.
It's simply too difficult to be 10 steps ahead of skilled PvP players which is why there is no room for wizards in competitive PvP.
While changes to any of the 6 things listed in the quote would be largely beneficial towards evening the scales, what wizards really need is a new paragon which is oriented towards defense.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I play with a GF and I like having a CW on my team who has got my back. As a tank do I not have the damage of a CW, and a CW does not have my tank. As a GF can I stun players, kick them around and put myself into the direct line of an attack to shield others. Having a CW in my team who stands behind me and who puts the hammer down on targets makes it a great team.
To demand more tanking for a CW, and I am sure a little won't hurt either, is simply wrong, because you are a team and not a single player. People here seem to think it is all just a 1v1, and I do see players often ask for 1v1 when it is a 5v5.
Cryptic can do a lot, but they cannot fix bad teamwork.
If every class is imbalanced, then you wouldn't see almost all top PVP players playing GWF and TRs (with a few going into HRs).
As far as CWs go, I've cited many videos proving my claims and "top PVP CW" getting <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> by their GWF guildmate on multiple matches.
On a sidenote, its funny seeing this same Lantiss guy get owned in their next in-house PVP game by the same guildmate this time playing a GF instead of his main GWF. Wait, that's not funny
Well, a big problem is GWFs and stealth TRs with good rotations are relatively immune to prones most of the time. You have to change some mechanics for your point to be viable and for this tanking in PVP thing to work.
I'm sorry. I don't know what level of competition you are referring to. Probably middling. I am referring to the highest levels of PVP through my examples and evidence.
There people are on teamspeak, are well-geared, are in the top pvp guilds and are communicating. I was watching one of Synergy's best GWF stream an in-house PVP match and their CW had an abysmal 9-39 record. She wasn't really of any help. She spent most of her time dodging and running away from 17k emblem GWFs chasing her. I believe the VOD was from 2 nights ago.
There are 3 nodes and only 5 players. You WILL encounter a lot of 1v1 situations. If you cannot perform that task, you waste your time running around, fleeing from death, waiting for a teammate to come help and not capping.
If your team is good, it will create 2vs1 situations where DPS can clear nodes fast. This is where CWs come into place.
As I said:
You wanna embrace support role and have fun playing? Great choice.
You wanna spend time in the forums asking for buffs? Fine by me as well. I like my CW and want it buffed. But I wouldn't put too much faith into it happening any time soon. I've been reading these forums for almost a year and no "Please buff CW in PvP" topics, and they were MANY, ever got a developer response of any sort. Some posters did a great job at explaining CW difficulties in PvP, with lots of proof and arguments, yet NOTHING has been done.
Wait. Actually something has been done:
They broke the CW even further!
I remember the time I could wear HV and spec thaum and deal damage. My opponents feared me, and a meatball meant almost certain death for most of them. I could kite people for significant amounts of time and reggened like a beast at 2K of the stat.
Now I have to wear that idiotic tenacity set. My damage is as low as it gets. My CC is worse than my GWF, GF or HR - by far. staying alive is just as problematic as ever.
So the developers further destroyed the class in PvP instead of fixing it, after all the great posting about it in the forums.
So I'd say it's useless.
1. I don't mean to offend but I can tell that you have a very limited perspective on Neverwinter PvP. When balance is discussed on the forums it is almost always in regard to competitive PvP, where people are specifically built, geared, and prepared for the Arena. CWs are not putting the hammer down on anyone of equal caliber.
2. I didn't demand more tanking for CW. A paragon oriented towards defense does not mean a paragon where CWs can sit and absorb tons of damage. All classes have a means of defending themselves without it being considered "tanking" ie. stealth, immunity, mobility, control, deception, etc. CW have very little access to any means of defense other than blink-and-run. A paragon path would be a great way to give CWs access to some survivability beyond just running away from everything.
Enforce rainbow parties in PvP ---- 10v10 PvP ----
I am quoting you: "what wizards really need is a new paragon which is oriented towards defense." Perhaps explain what it is you demand if it isn't more tanking.
Then I watched my CW victim. He was actually one of the good ones, with meatball on Mastery. Sadly, he had huge issues landing it on me, because of several reasons: sprint, halfling, and FLS/Takedown. I usually wait for the CW to start the animation, and bam, FLS. The meatball animation is exceedingly long and cumbersome and quite easy to counter.
Almost each time I proned the CW, he would not even be able to push the meatball on me, as stopping from running away meant death (yes, he was halfling too, with PvP spec, r10s, and 37K HP...). So he lost his spell like 80% of the times, and it went on cooldown, which should be around 13 secs.
So my suggestion is:
- if the GWF which is already a faceroll class that facerolls people can be compensated for when we fall asleep on the keyboard and slobber on the wrong keys and miss the Takedown... why not the CWs?
Reduce meatball cooldown to 3-4 secs if the CW misses it, I'd say no Shardplosion hit, reduce cooldown.
If you look at the preview shard GWF is getting hammered down hard.. An OP GWF in pvp may not even exist in mod 3...
The last class that needs any of their encounters buffed is the CW.. Seriously...
Seems though being gods in pve isn't enough for the cW player base anymore
Yeah I have a CW too. And a TR. And a GF. And a HR that's not geared yet. I use my GWF the most though, and then the TR.
Maybe I should make clear this is a PvP related suggestion. I don't PvE with any of my chars. They don't even have augment companions, although I will be in for some serious shopping soon in this department. CWs might be OP in PvE, yet I don't see how this is relevant to PvP. Nobody truly cares about PvE.
As for next module, are you even serious?!? I copied my GWF there and I have almost 60K HP and am a machine of destruction. Took 6 guildies to take me down lol (I admit on using some PvE potions haha). But even without the PvE pots, I am way better than in live. It's OK to defend our class, but let's just not blatantly lie about it.
GWF is hellish in PvP in Module 3. You just need the BiS companions, the BiS gear and the BiS enchants
And this is without Black Ice gear. Cause there will be almost no stopping me when I get those things. Gonna have lots of fun trolling squishies that will not be able to even take down 10% of my HP.
Just as a sidenote.
I have the luxury of being honest.
Why?
Cause when they nerf a class, I'll just dump it in the "unused" bin and play the most OP, FOTM build that's out there. So... I can speak the truth, since it has no impact on me. All my chars are fully geared and always will be. No nerfs can hurt me.
if you want to play a pure pvp game then gtfo this game -___- there are other pvp games out there.
You realise this game is 80% pve and 20% pvp right??
So buffing your cw for pvp purposes will wreck the game for 80% of the rest of us
As the above person said gtfo
Please explain as my PvE experience is quite limited, although I have cleared all content in the game legit quite a few times with friends.
Also we can make this a meatball/mastery only buff.
Nobody uses meatball in mastery in PvE am I right?
I'll ignore the "gtfo" for now, but if this is the way forum debates and discussions go, I'll adapt and respond in kind.
Either take your own advice or realise that people have different opinions that you.
- signed someone who prefers pve over pvp anyway. Also I and probably the OP hasn't truly pvp'd on mimic so are stating on opinions on what changes he thinks should be made on live. Currently cws are OP for pve and UP for pvp, gwf are pretty good for pve and totally OP for pvp (if they have the gear). The other notably OP pvp character would be skilled perma stealth trs, though they could be compensated in other areas. Their pvp nerfs have also also affected TRs damage in pve.
Dude, you are talking like meatball is the only specc for the cw. Meatball cant beat most classes 1v1 anymore.
Also i dont know what level of pvp you are playing on, but i would love a 1v1 so you can shut up about cws already.
pm me with your handle or ingame name whatever
But the topic is only about meatball, takedown and cooldown reductions on miss.