So I have been reading the forums a lot and some people have proclaimed 2 things: CWs should always lose to their mortal enemy, the TR and that the CW is a support class and shouldn't be as equally competitive in 1vs1 scenarios.
They've also stated that some "top pvp CWs" are able to 1v1 any class even though no one has provided any video evidence of this while I've provided the opposite, but thats besides the matter. Just gonna squelch this myth.
So my question is, do you agree with either statement? Do you think the classes in Neverwinter is a rock,paper,scissors kind of thing and that TRs should always get the best of CWs and CWs should always get the best of....GWF? Maybe not GWF or TR but we'll find a class
Also, do you think that CW should be treated as a support class (even though they can't heal...even the healing depression heal and a 30k HP, 2k defense CW aren't as tanky as some DC builds)?
I cited a video to support my argument. How are you able to turn it back to me being bad at teamwork. ...
I am able simply because I want to know. Seeing that you dodge the question can I assume that you in fact are bad a teamwork. Well, understand that you cannot build your arguments based on the idea that all fights could be broken down into 1v1 fights. Cryptic wants us to work together and to put tactics before gear. You are required to protect your healers, rangers and CWs, just as you are required to protect your fighters at the front line. At best is the TR a solo class, because as an infiltrator does this type of TR often work alone behind the lines, but TRs can work just as well in a brawl. The CW is just not a solo class. So stop expecting you could win a 1v1 against every other class. Think about it. What kind of a class would this be that could actually win any 1v1? Is it the Greater Control Guardian Healer Trickster Wizard class? Or is it the Dragon class? Hmm?? Yeah, you have to be pretty stupid to think there was such a class or that it needs one.
Some people in this thread are so ignorant and silly...
First: CD reduction on a miss would had no impact on PVE, because a right placed shard will hit at least two enemies, so: true dps comes from a shard that hits, not from a missed one.
Second: This crusade by some people to nerf the CW has became a cry baby fest. People who have no clue about game mechanics, dungeons design or the root of the true problem. They are crying in a chorus of ignorance just by looking in the dps charts and the LFG channel while they dont even realize the true problem: If u can pull 20+ enemies together, most of them with no cc resistance or immunity, of course a class with AOE dmg and control power will ALWAYS be top of damage charts and will ALWAYS be sought after because of their ability to control mobs and mass nuke them.
Its the dungeon design and an oeconomical issue, because the dungeons with the most AD output are the ones with armees of mobs. Change that, not the class who takes out the trash!
Third: The OP may be very arrogant and an elitist par exellence but he has a point. His suggestion seems very viable because it buffs the CW with strategic advantage. The CW was never a very good class in PVP because of the current game system: Domination, with two maps, both without any significant terrain features which ranged classes could profit from. With mod3 and open world pvp we will see how sufficient the cw class is.
PS: I have never written in these forums until now but the level of this discussion was almost unbearable. Pls everybody, be objective and talk about the things u know about. So much ignorance here.
No dont come here with your ideas for buffing a CW when its my favourite meal in domination;) No but seriously the cws need some change for sure, i know a lot of good cws. But how hard they try to fight and equaly good geard gwf/hr/tr they will usually end up dead. Must be very frustrating to have a char that u spent alot of time and AD on that cant do very well in pvp. And people dont come here now and say that CWs are OP in PVE they dont need to be good at both. Some ppl dont play this game for pve since its TO GADDAM EASY! :P
Agreed. Pretty much why I posted these ideas, friend. I've seen some very good CW's in PVP but it takes em a lot of effort to win against the optimal builds of the other classes better suited for PVP. They're awfully squishy and have very little means to play defensively. Not to mention playing defensively right now as a CW in PVP will hurt their potential for PVE.
My hopes in short: a) Orb of Imposition enhances freeze state so that freeze does not break so fast. b) Chose a place to cast Icy Terrain on by default, and on Tab its range increases.
Oh I like this. I also find it disturbing how the Frozen state drops so quickly. Would be great if Orb of Imposition and the WIS bonus could somehow affect the duration of this CC. But then again, Chill is in a good spot right now. Arcane Mastery stacks on the other hand are a pain to maintain and generate.
Only improvement needed on shard is that the shard doesn't get canceled if Dazed/Stuned. Because it made HR fighting CW way too brutal, for the CW lol.
True, but constricting arrow(I assume that's what youre talking about) was basically all an HR had against a CW lol. If that didn't work, I want to see the cw dumb enough to lose to an HR.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
So I might have made a few posts that few seem to have interpreted as hostile to Control Wizards. Been playing today my GWF and during some faceroll duels with some CW that was courageous enough, I noticed one thing: my Takedown always gets reduced cooldown when I derp and miss. Basically, I'm compensated for my bad gameplay with yet another Takedown in 3-4 secs. This allows me to pretty much spam it around creating many opportunities for that crazy IBS crit that usually follows. This is obviously not the first time I've seen this, noticed it when I was in my level 20s months ago.
Then I watched my CW victim. He was actually one of the good ones, with meatball on Mastery. Sadly, he had huge issues landing it on me, because of several reasons: sprint, halfling, and FLS/Takedown. I usually wait for the CW to start the animation, and bam, FLS. The meatball animation is exceedingly long and cumbersome and quite easy to counter.
Almost each time I proned the CW, he would not even be able to push the meatball on me, as stopping from running away meant death (yes, he was halfling too, with PvP spec, r10s, and 37K HP...). So he lost his spell like 80% of the times, and it went on cooldown, which should be around 13 secs.
So my suggestion is:
- if the GWF which is already a faceroll class that facerolls people can be compensated for when we fall asleep on the keyboard and slobber on the wrong keys and miss the Takedown... why not the CWs?
Reduce meatball cooldown to 3-4 secs if the CW misses it, I'd say no Shardplosion hit, reduce cooldown.
Why not just have it so if it doesn't finish casting, it doesn't go on cooldown. This is different than Takedown, where Takedown casts and misses and gets a short cooldown. If shard finishes casting but doesn't hit anyone, it should still go on cooldown.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2014
All decent suggestions. The irony is that the PVP changes (ie Tenacity and Healing Depression) were supposed to help them in PVP. The result is just the opposite.
Right now Trace (CW) is on the shelf for PVP. I'm tempted to respec him for PVE only because he's not a 21 CON/Halfling spec. A shame, because he's been my main since Beta.
Repel, honestly, does not need a rework: it simply needs to work! The cooldown is around 6 seconds with a decent amount of recovery.
degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2014
This is about the fifth thread related to this topic. Many people warned the Devs about it when Tenacity was on the Preview Shard, but like most changes, they tend to go ahead without listening to the feedback from some of the top PVPers on the server. The end result is that Tenacity hurt the class it was supposed the help the most.
Some people in this thread are so ignorant and silly...
First: CD reduction on a miss would had no impact on PVE, because a right placed shard will hit at least two enemies, so: true dps comes from a shard that hits, not from a missed one.
Second: This crusade by some people to nerf the CW has became a cry baby fest. People who have no clue about game mechanics, dungeons design or the root of the true problem. They are crying in a chorus of ignorance just by looking in the dps charts and the LFG channel while they dont even realize the true problem: If u can pull 20+ enemies together, most of them with no cc resistance or immunity, of course a class with AOE dmg and control power will ALWAYS be top of damage charts and will ALWAYS be sought after because of their ability to control mobs and mass nuke them.
Its the dungeon design and an oeconomical issue, because the dungeons with the most AD output are the ones with armees of mobs. Change that, not the class who takes out the trash!
Third: The OP may be very arrogant and an elitist par exellence but he has a point. His suggestion seems very viable because it buffs the CW with strategic advantage. The CW was never a very good class in PVP because of the current game system: Domination, with two maps, both without any significant terrain features which ranged classes could profit from. With mod3 and open world pvp we will see how sufficient the cw class is.
PS: I have never written in these forums until now but the level of this discussion was almost unbearable. Pls everybody, be objective and talk about the things u know about. So much ignorance here.
PPS: Sorry for my bad english
I don't see ignorance here(except yours maybe?)
First: Although it seems fine, its been made clear that theyre not ready to make changes to pvp that wouldn't affect pve(or vice versa). When they want to make clear cuts between how everything works in pvp versus pve, then some balance might be better judged. CD reduction actually does impact pve, because whats to say that cant be exploited by intentionally "missing" with 1 shard, so another 1 can then be placed. Double sharding would make a cw's already great dps even greater.
Second: I for one don't want them nerfed or buffed. The OP wants it buffed. Any cw worth his salt knows shard kicks *** already. And although dungeon design should be the true issue, cw's being great in pve can not be disputed by anyone. No one here even said anything about nerfing them for pve, youre the ignorant one there for not realizing that that argument's not even on the table.
Third: Youre ignorant here. Pre-tenacity, cw's were with gwf's as 1 of the best classes in pvp. They still are too, but as a support class. A lone cw versus multiple enemies ofc theyre going to get squashed, but with even 1 melee tanking for them, theyre the most threatening class on the battlefield. They can do so much when theyre not the target. By the way, both maps had specific range spots for exploiting range capabilities. It just takes a person whos played pvp to see them.
PS: Ive stayed away from forums since beta, cuz complaints were way worse back then. Ive tried to keep my posts civil, then posts like yours come along. By your very claim of other people being "ignorant", just cuz they have information/opinions that you don't agree with, makes you ignorant. I may argue for or against others' opinions, but I always consider that theirs may be of three notions: less than, equal to, or greater than mine.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Funny thing is, that when u end up playing the endgame pvp, they did this change to help the cw but it did hurt em instead. Same goes for the GWFs they implement the healingdepresion to hurt the gwfs, but they hurt the other classes even more IF the gwf got an emblem. We ran into ET the otherday they had 3 emblems we had 1.. IMHO those emblem changed the entire outcome of the match, its just to gaddamn OP in pvp and there is no other artifact that really can match it. And trying to get 3 artifacts on my 3 chars i like to play just to compete equals with todays price = 25M AD. Sry if i ruin your thread but im just so sick of that OP as hell artifact
Why not just have it so if it doesn't finish casting, it doesn't go on cooldown. This is different than Takedown, where Takedown casts and misses and gets a short cooldown. If shard finishes casting but doesn't hit anyone, it should still go on cooldown.
This is a better idea. As for the casting issue, my only issue is that hes got the wrong comparison. There's no comparison between shard and takedown. Shard has much more going for it, hence its weakness. If you want to compare, go with Frontline Surge... Theyre both aoe proners, with great damage potential, but bad cooldowns. Takedown is more in line with cw's chill strike. chill strike has moderate damage, single target(unless on mastery), decent cooldown, and even a half second to one second stun.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
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silverquickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
This is a better idea. As for the casting issue, my only issue is that hes got the wrong comparison. There's no comparison between shard and takedown. Shard has much more going for it, hence its weakness. If you want to compare, go with Frontline Surge... Theyre both aoe proners, with great damage potential, but bad cooldowns. Takedown is more in line with cw's chill strike. chill strike has moderate damage, single target(unless on mastery), decent cooldown, and even a half second to one second stun.
Well here's where the problem comes with Chill Strike. In PvE Chill Strike is a good 4 second or more freeze, In PvP its what? Half a second? If it were this long in PvP, heck even a 3 second freeze due to the long casting time on it, I'm sure this would go a long ways to assisting a general imbalance in the PvP side with regards to CC powers of CWs.
Shards honestly only needs a shorter casting time. I am of the opinion though that Shards is one of the spells they need to double the damage on... but double the recast timer on as well. So it can only be used sparingly, but when you do use it, its game changing. That's my personal opinion on that one.
EDIT: Also in PvP Shards is one that needs to go off instantly after hitting ONE target, not multiples like is required in PvE.
I was afraid to read some ridiculous post asking for buffs to shard, ice knife or oppressive force. Some interesting ideas. I don't even bother watching arcane stacks myself, this is beyond dumb and forces you to take a suboptimal choice of spells.
Well here's where the problem comes with Chill Strike. In PvE Chill Strike is a good 4 second or more freeze, In PvP its what? Half a second? If it were this long in PvP, heck even a 3 second freeze due to the long casting time on it, I'm sure this would go a long ways to assisting a general imbalance in the PvP side with regards to CC powers of CWs.
Not disagreeing with this, chill strike's "freeze" is a joke. Just saying that comparing shard to takedown was ridiculous. Shard does more damage, is an aoe prone, whereas takedown is single target, moderate damage prone.
Shards honestly only needs a shorter casting time. I am of the opinion though that Shards is one of the spells they need to double the damage on... but double the recast timer on as well. So it can only be used sparingly, but when you do use it, its game changing. That's my personal opinion on that one.
IMO, shard does great damage already, as well as prones. In pvp I either don't slot it, or use it sparingly already. It already has a "high risk, high reward" balance.
EDIT: Also in PvP Shards is one that needs to go off instantly after hitting ONE target, not multiples like is required in PvE.
Problem is, as ive said in earlier posts, that depends on if the devs want to differentiate pvp and pve power functions.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I have to agree with most of your suggestions. A 15k GS CW versus a 15k GS GWF/GF/HR/TR, the CW may aswell have 11k GS because thats exactly how it feels when fighting someone that is on par or even worse in PvP.
mod note: due to the recent class balance changes coming with module 3, it is no surprise that a barrage of CW discussions have emerged. a number of CW discussion threads have been merged.
as has already been mentioned by the devs, CWs are being looked at and will be balanced however this is not slated for the mod 3 release.
therefore everything in this thread is theoretical and speculative. take it with a grain of salt.
do not reply to this mod note. if you'd like to discuss it, send a PM instead.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited April 2014
The dilemma that Cryptic has now is with their lovely new stat, Tenacity. The point of it was to make fights in PVP last more than one encounter rotation (burst damage), reduce control times (CC), and solve the issue of the unkillable GWF or DC (stacking insane regen). And congratulations, they did just that!
What they didn't consider is how terribly this would affect CWs, even though multiple players warned them again and again on the issue. They no longer have burst damage or CC (their two strengths). The new PVP sets are quite awful, none with Deflect.
With Tenacity not going anywhere (the new Module 3 sets are stacked with it), they now have to deal with the issue of making the Control Wizard actually control. My personal opinion is that they're not going to do anything for quite a while. The entire core of the class needs to be reworked. If control is what makes a CW viable in PVP, and the primary PVP stat (Tenacity) negates that, Cryptic has painted itself into a corner.
We'll see what they do. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my HR and GWF. They're quite fun to play at the moment.
Most high end pvp matches i have done we did 1on1's after the match, GWF's fighting TR's... HR's fighting TR's... HR's fighting GWF's... even DC's fighting TR's! then ur there with ur CW and ur like, no man... broken class, module 9 bro. or... i can try.
The devs have made notice about CW's having way too much dmg!!, and on the preview they have taken away his teleport so he wont be able to dodge anything any more!
They can still dodge as far as I know; that was just a bug on the first patch (which should be fixed already) where it didn't give you the animation, just made you move fast.
As a GWF I hope you CW's get some love in the near future. Mainly hope you guys get some CC back. I sometimes get happy when I run across a CW that is hard to kill comes to contest my node...but disappointed when he/she is hitting like a pillow (because of defensive build). Since I mostly pug, this means that CW will often be solo without any possibility of support. So as I stand there ignoring them, waiting for the point to cap, they are left with a choice...hop on the node to contest and die early or wait til it caps and still die just hoping someone will show up to help. Kinda disappointing from my perspective.
The dilemma that Cryptic has now is with their lovely new stat, Tenacity. The point of it was to make fights in PVP last more than one encounter rotation (burst damage), reduce control times (CC), and solve the issue of the unkillable GWF or DC (stacking insane regen). And congratulations, they did just that!
What they didn't consider is how terribly this would affect CWs, even though multiple players warned them again and again on the issue. They no longer have burst damage or CC (their two strengths). The new PVP sets are quite awful, none with Deflect.
With Tenacity not going anywhere (the new Module 3 sets are stacked with it), they now have to deal with the issue of making the Control Wizard actually control. My personal opinion is that they're not going to do anything for quite a while. The entire core of the class needs to be reworked. If control is what makes a CW viable in PVP, and the primary PVP stat (Tenacity) negates that, Cryptic has painted itself into a corner.
We'll see what they do. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my HR and GWF. They're quite fun to play at the moment.
Tenacity has to stay. PvP is in a much better state right now. CWs only need some fine tweaking to be a bit more competitive in pvp. 30k burst damage and permastuns used to make the game idiotic and look silly. Now this is gone until the devs introduce companions active bonuses in pvp.
Contrary to a popular belief, CWs have never been great on the control side of things, even in pve, there are maybe 3-4 true control spells and one of them is a daily (oppressive force). There are many pointless spells like repel or now shield, which means there's room to buff the CW without breaking pve even more.
The animations also take forever for every single spell. That's horrible in pvp, but I guess it's a major part of the pve balance so there isn't much the devs can do.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Tenacity has to stay. PvP is in a much better state right now. CWs only need some fine tweaking to be a bit more competitive in pvp. 30k burst damage and permastuns used to make the game idiotic and look silly. Now this is gone until the devs introduce companions active bonuses in pvp.
Contrary to a popular belief, CWs have never been great on the control side of things, even in pve, there are maybe 3-4 true control spells and one of them is a daily (oppressive force). There are many pointless spells like repel or now shield, which means there's room to buff the CW without breaking pve even more.
The animations also take forever for every single spell. That's horrible in pvp, but I guess it's a major part of the pve balance so there isn't much the devs can do.
Agreed to all of this. At least before the PVP patch, I had the semblance of being a part of winning a match. Now CWs are a liability, hands down. *shrug* It'll all work out in the end.
Tenacity has to stay. PvP is in a much better state right now. CWs only need some fine tweaking to be a bit more competitive in pvp. 30k burst damage and permastuns used to make the game idiotic and look silly. Now this is gone until the devs introduce companions active bonuses in pvp.
30k burst damage and perma-control was annoying as heck. In the past, it just came down to whoever hit their rotations first, and that was almost always cw's. They seemed to have reversed it, by lowering damage and shortening control. But, maybe a little too much, no?
Contrary to a popular belief, CWs have never been great on the control side of things, even in pve, there are maybe 3-4 true control spells and one of them is a daily (oppressive force). There are many pointless spells like repel or now shield, which means there's room to buff the CW without breaking pve even more.
But the thing is, we could have 4 encounters. Which means that almost every wizard threw at least 2-3 of said control powers on their slot, AND still slot high damage ones(pre-tenacity, tell me how many cw's used ice knife... all of them basically). Repel was annoying as heck, and shield was a wasted slot, only because everybody knew its weakness. Pre-tenacity, cw's were up on the pvp charts because they had cc AND insane burst damage(I considered ice knife an "instant win" button, cuz I top off a rotation with it, and watch the enemy get overkilled so bad)
The animations also take forever for every single spell. That's horrible in pvp, but I guess it's a major part of the pve balance so there isn't much the devs can do.
Not all of their animations take forever... CS, RoE, CoI, Icy Rays all had fast activation times.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Nitpick: CS does not have a fast activation time. It's telegraphed as all hell and only hits people because they get faked out and dodge too early.
CWs were never extremely strong in high-end PvP except against DCs and other CWs, but things were definitely better for the class when burst potential was higher and Repel had a niche application as a zoning tool against melee attackers (as opposed to failing constantly as it does now). I like most of what Tenacity has done for PvP except that CWs just don't have much going for them anymore. Weaker burst, range advantage defeated by numerous gap closers, mostly inconsequential CC...not looking so hot.
Nitpick: CS does not have a fast activation time. It's telegraphed as all hell and only hits people because they get faked out and dodge too early.
CWs were never extremely strong in high-end PvP except against DCs and other CWs, but things were definitely better for the class when burst potential was higher and Repel had a niche application as a zoning tool against melee attackers (as opposed to failing constantly as it does now). I like most of what Tenacity has done for PvP except that CWs just don't have much going for them anymore. Weaker burst, range advantage defeated by numerous gap closers, mostly inconsequential CC...not looking so hot.
It is, but all cw abilities have a slight telegraph time. I was just pointing out the short ones. If there was no activation time, cw's would be the greatest class. Steal Time with no activation time? OP. Shard of the Endless Avalanche with no activation time? OP. Icy Terrain with no telegraphing, and its aoe instantly hit? OP. You take your encounter's only weakness away, and cw becomes the most OP class ever. Shoot, with all the whining about HRs and GWFs abilities, most of their ones(Aimed Shot, IBS, Flourish, Commanding Shot) have decent telegraphing, and some are even interruptible. How many people would whine if Aimed Shot hit instantly, or couldn't be interrupted? The encounter's I described in my last post are the best cw encounters for versatility, with little weakness. By the way, I hit people with chill strike all the time, whereas any half decent player can dodge or interrupt shard... theres a difference there, as I pointed out.
Nitpick: CWs were always strong in pre-tenacity, high-end pvp, due to their high burst damage AND cc. Ask the top pvp guilds... pre-tenacity, the best compositions ran with gwf's, cw's, and dc's. Those are the teams that picked games apart. Yes, there were different team comps, but it always came down to who had more cw's and gwf's.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
CWs were never extremely strong in high-end PvP except against DCs and other CWs, but things were definitely better for the class when burst potential was higher and Repel had a niche application as a zoning tool against melee attackers (as opposed to failing constantly as it does now). I like most of what Tenacity has done for PvP except that CWs just don't have much going for them anymore. Weaker burst, range advantage defeated by numerous gap closers, mostly inconsequential CC...not looking so hot.
CWs were never amazing in high level PvP lol... I got asked to come on my CW only and ONLY when the other guild we were premading against had one and we had to match comps. Each other time people wanted my perma or GWF. All my chars are similarly geared... maxed... so this was not an issue. The only issue was that GWF and TR could do more. No point in bringing the weak class if you didn't have to.
It's crazy to state otherwise. Only proves some people never did PvP at high level (premade with maxed, full PvP specced toons).
As for Tenacity, it only made things worse. The gear I have to wear is bad, my CC is way worse, and my damage is way lower.
But it's OK, usually after suffering some crushing defeat with my CW I log the GWF and destroy people around (especially CWs...), finishing most matches with 0 deaths and 30 kills.
CWs were never amazing in high level PvP lol... I got asked to come on my CW only and ONLY when the other guild we were premading against had one and we had to match comps. Each other time people wanted my perma or GWF. All my chars are similarly geared... maxed... so this was not an issue. The only issue was that GWF and TR could do more. No point in bringing the weak class if you didn't have to.
It's crazy to state otherwise. Only proves some people never did PvP at high level (premade with maxed, full PvP specced toons).
As for Tenacity, it only made things worse. The gear I have to wear is bad, my CC is way worse, and my damage is way lower.
But it's OK, usually after suffering some crushing defeat with my CW I log the GWF and destroy people around (especially CWs...), finishing most matches with 0 deaths and 30 kills.
This is how I balance things out...
I think someone hasn't done pvp in the past... ever lol. Ive always heard(especially from a certain person in the past) that high end pvp in the past(including from those elitist pvp guilds) included many cw's involved in their team makeup. Anyone who states otherwise hasn't played pvp before tenacity. If a cw has to throw a fit about the state of pvp, its the current tenacity changes, not pvp past... nice try.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I think someone hasn't done pvp in the past... ever lol. Ive always heard(especially from a certain person in the past) that high end pvp in the past(including from those elitist pvp guilds) included many cw's involved in their team makeup. Anyone who states otherwise hasn't played pvp before tenacity. If a cw has to throw a fit about the state of pvp, its the current tenacity changes, not pvp past... nice try.
CW was my second toon, after my GF. I had a full tenebrous CW, if you know the metas, this should tell you something about how long I played the class. I even have a tiefling CW on the account that we used to think it was viable before we discovered halflings
Are you actually saying someone told you that PvP guilds included many CWs as a good class in their makeups? That never happened.
Comments
I cited a video to support my argument. How are you able to turn it back to me being bad at teamwork.
Did you:
a. Not watch the video
b. Not read my post
c. Are unable to use reading comprehension
d. Started playing yesterday and have no clue who Synergy, Lemonade Stand, Enemy Team are
e. All of the above
They've also stated that some "top pvp CWs" are able to 1v1 any class even though no one has provided any video evidence of this while I've provided the opposite, but thats besides the matter. Just gonna squelch this myth.
So my question is, do you agree with either statement? Do you think the classes in Neverwinter is a rock,paper,scissors kind of thing and that TRs should always get the best of CWs and CWs should always get the best of....GWF? Maybe not GWF or TR but we'll find a class
Also, do you think that CW should be treated as a support class (even though they can't heal...even the healing depression heal and a 30k HP, 2k defense CW aren't as tanky as some DC builds)?
First: CD reduction on a miss would had no impact on PVE, because a right placed shard will hit at least two enemies, so: true dps comes from a shard that hits, not from a missed one.
Second: This crusade by some people to nerf the CW has became a cry baby fest. People who have no clue about game mechanics, dungeons design or the root of the true problem. They are crying in a chorus of ignorance just by looking in the dps charts and the LFG channel while they dont even realize the true problem: If u can pull 20+ enemies together, most of them with no cc resistance or immunity, of course a class with AOE dmg and control power will ALWAYS be top of damage charts and will ALWAYS be sought after because of their ability to control mobs and mass nuke them.
Its the dungeon design and an oeconomical issue, because the dungeons with the most AD output are the ones with armees of mobs. Change that, not the class who takes out the trash!
Third: The OP may be very arrogant and an elitist par exellence but he has a point. His suggestion seems very viable because it buffs the CW with strategic advantage. The CW was never a very good class in PVP because of the current game system: Domination, with two maps, both without any significant terrain features which ranged classes could profit from. With mod3 and open world pvp we will see how sufficient the cw class is.
PS: I have never written in these forums until now but the level of this discussion was almost unbearable. Pls everybody, be objective and talk about the things u know about. So much ignorance here.
PPS: Sorry for my bad english
Agreed. Pretty much why I posted these ideas, friend. I've seen some very good CW's in PVP but it takes em a lot of effort to win against the optimal builds of the other classes better suited for PVP. They're awfully squishy and have very little means to play defensively. Not to mention playing defensively right now as a CW in PVP will hurt their potential for PVE.
Oh I like this. I also find it disturbing how the Frozen state drops so quickly. Would be great if Orb of Imposition and the WIS bonus could somehow affect the duration of this CC. But then again, Chill is in a good spot right now. Arcane Mastery stacks on the other hand are a pain to maintain and generate.
True, but constricting arrow(I assume that's what youre talking about) was basically all an HR had against a CW lol. If that didn't work, I want to see the cw dumb enough to lose to an HR.
Why not just have it so if it doesn't finish casting, it doesn't go on cooldown. This is different than Takedown, where Takedown casts and misses and gets a short cooldown. If shard finishes casting but doesn't hit anyone, it should still go on cooldown.
Right now Trace (CW) is on the shelf for PVP. I'm tempted to respec him for PVE only because he's not a 21 CON/Halfling spec. A shame, because he's been my main since Beta.
Repel, honestly, does not need a rework: it simply needs to work! The cooldown is around 6 seconds with a decent amount of recovery.
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We'll see if Cryptic is listening.
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I don't see ignorance here(except yours maybe?)
First: Although it seems fine, its been made clear that theyre not ready to make changes to pvp that wouldn't affect pve(or vice versa). When they want to make clear cuts between how everything works in pvp versus pve, then some balance might be better judged. CD reduction actually does impact pve, because whats to say that cant be exploited by intentionally "missing" with 1 shard, so another 1 can then be placed. Double sharding would make a cw's already great dps even greater.
Second: I for one don't want them nerfed or buffed. The OP wants it buffed. Any cw worth his salt knows shard kicks *** already. And although dungeon design should be the true issue, cw's being great in pve can not be disputed by anyone. No one here even said anything about nerfing them for pve, youre the ignorant one there for not realizing that that argument's not even on the table.
Third: Youre ignorant here. Pre-tenacity, cw's were with gwf's as 1 of the best classes in pvp. They still are too, but as a support class. A lone cw versus multiple enemies ofc theyre going to get squashed, but with even 1 melee tanking for them, theyre the most threatening class on the battlefield. They can do so much when theyre not the target. By the way, both maps had specific range spots for exploiting range capabilities. It just takes a person whos played pvp to see them.
PS: Ive stayed away from forums since beta, cuz complaints were way worse back then. Ive tried to keep my posts civil, then posts like yours come along. By your very claim of other people being "ignorant", just cuz they have information/opinions that you don't agree with, makes you ignorant. I may argue for or against others' opinions, but I always consider that theirs may be of three notions: less than, equal to, or greater than mine.
This is a better idea. As for the casting issue, my only issue is that hes got the wrong comparison. There's no comparison between shard and takedown. Shard has much more going for it, hence its weakness. If you want to compare, go with Frontline Surge... Theyre both aoe proners, with great damage potential, but bad cooldowns. Takedown is more in line with cw's chill strike. chill strike has moderate damage, single target(unless on mastery), decent cooldown, and even a half second to one second stun.
Well here's where the problem comes with Chill Strike. In PvE Chill Strike is a good 4 second or more freeze, In PvP its what? Half a second? If it were this long in PvP, heck even a 3 second freeze due to the long casting time on it, I'm sure this would go a long ways to assisting a general imbalance in the PvP side with regards to CC powers of CWs.
Shards honestly only needs a shorter casting time. I am of the opinion though that Shards is one of the spells they need to double the damage on... but double the recast timer on as well. So it can only be used sparingly, but when you do use it, its game changing. That's my personal opinion on that one.
EDIT: Also in PvP Shards is one that needs to go off instantly after hitting ONE target, not multiples like is required in PvE.
Not disagreeing with this, chill strike's "freeze" is a joke. Just saying that comparing shard to takedown was ridiculous. Shard does more damage, is an aoe prone, whereas takedown is single target, moderate damage prone.
IMO, shard does great damage already, as well as prones. In pvp I either don't slot it, or use it sparingly already. It already has a "high risk, high reward" balance.
Problem is, as ive said in earlier posts, that depends on if the devs want to differentiate pvp and pve power functions.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
as has already been mentioned by the devs, CWs are being looked at and will be balanced however this is not slated for the mod 3 release.
therefore everything in this thread is theoretical and speculative. take it with a grain of salt.
do not reply to this mod note. if you'd like to discuss it, send a PM instead.
What they didn't consider is how terribly this would affect CWs, even though multiple players warned them again and again on the issue. They no longer have burst damage or CC (their two strengths). The new PVP sets are quite awful, none with Deflect.
With Tenacity not going anywhere (the new Module 3 sets are stacked with it), they now have to deal with the issue of making the Control Wizard actually control. My personal opinion is that they're not going to do anything for quite a while. The entire core of the class needs to be reworked. If control is what makes a CW viable in PVP, and the primary PVP stat (Tenacity) negates that, Cryptic has painted itself into a corner.
We'll see what they do. In the meantime, I'm going to enjoy my HR and GWF. They're quite fun to play at the moment.
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They can still dodge as far as I know; that was just a bug on the first patch (which should be fixed already) where it didn't give you the animation, just made you move fast.
Tenacity has to stay. PvP is in a much better state right now. CWs only need some fine tweaking to be a bit more competitive in pvp. 30k burst damage and permastuns used to make the game idiotic and look silly. Now this is gone until the devs introduce companions active bonuses in pvp.
Contrary to a popular belief, CWs have never been great on the control side of things, even in pve, there are maybe 3-4 true control spells and one of them is a daily (oppressive force). There are many pointless spells like repel or now shield, which means there's room to buff the CW without breaking pve even more.
The animations also take forever for every single spell. That's horrible in pvp, but I guess it's a major part of the pve balance so there isn't much the devs can do.
Agreed to all of this. At least before the PVP patch, I had the semblance of being a part of winning a match. Now CWs are a liability, hands down. *shrug* It'll all work out in the end.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
30k burst damage and perma-control was annoying as heck. In the past, it just came down to whoever hit their rotations first, and that was almost always cw's. They seemed to have reversed it, by lowering damage and shortening control. But, maybe a little too much, no?
But the thing is, we could have 4 encounters. Which means that almost every wizard threw at least 2-3 of said control powers on their slot, AND still slot high damage ones(pre-tenacity, tell me how many cw's used ice knife... all of them basically). Repel was annoying as heck, and shield was a wasted slot, only because everybody knew its weakness. Pre-tenacity, cw's were up on the pvp charts because they had cc AND insane burst damage(I considered ice knife an "instant win" button, cuz I top off a rotation with it, and watch the enemy get overkilled so bad)
Not all of their animations take forever... CS, RoE, CoI, Icy Rays all had fast activation times.
CWs were never extremely strong in high-end PvP except against DCs and other CWs, but things were definitely better for the class when burst potential was higher and Repel had a niche application as a zoning tool against melee attackers (as opposed to failing constantly as it does now). I like most of what Tenacity has done for PvP except that CWs just don't have much going for them anymore. Weaker burst, range advantage defeated by numerous gap closers, mostly inconsequential CC...not looking so hot.
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It is, but all cw abilities have a slight telegraph time. I was just pointing out the short ones. If there was no activation time, cw's would be the greatest class. Steal Time with no activation time? OP. Shard of the Endless Avalanche with no activation time? OP. Icy Terrain with no telegraphing, and its aoe instantly hit? OP. You take your encounter's only weakness away, and cw becomes the most OP class ever. Shoot, with all the whining about HRs and GWFs abilities, most of their ones(Aimed Shot, IBS, Flourish, Commanding Shot) have decent telegraphing, and some are even interruptible. How many people would whine if Aimed Shot hit instantly, or couldn't be interrupted? The encounter's I described in my last post are the best cw encounters for versatility, with little weakness. By the way, I hit people with chill strike all the time, whereas any half decent player can dodge or interrupt shard... theres a difference there, as I pointed out.
Nitpick: CWs were always strong in pre-tenacity, high-end pvp, due to their high burst damage AND cc. Ask the top pvp guilds... pre-tenacity, the best compositions ran with gwf's, cw's, and dc's. Those are the teams that picked games apart. Yes, there were different team comps, but it always came down to who had more cw's and gwf's.
CWs were never amazing in high level PvP lol... I got asked to come on my CW only and ONLY when the other guild we were premading against had one and we had to match comps. Each other time people wanted my perma or GWF. All my chars are similarly geared... maxed... so this was not an issue. The only issue was that GWF and TR could do more. No point in bringing the weak class if you didn't have to.
It's crazy to state otherwise. Only proves some people never did PvP at high level (premade with maxed, full PvP specced toons).
As for Tenacity, it only made things worse. The gear I have to wear is bad, my CC is way worse, and my damage is way lower.
But it's OK, usually after suffering some crushing defeat with my CW I log the GWF and destroy people around (especially CWs...), finishing most matches with 0 deaths and 30 kills.
This is how I balance things out...
I think someone hasn't done pvp in the past... ever lol. Ive always heard(especially from a certain person in the past) that high end pvp in the past(including from those elitist pvp guilds) included many cw's involved in their team makeup. Anyone who states otherwise hasn't played pvp before tenacity. If a cw has to throw a fit about the state of pvp, its the current tenacity changes, not pvp past... nice try.
CW was my second toon, after my GF. I had a full tenebrous CW, if you know the metas, this should tell you something about how long I played the class. I even have a tiefling CW on the account that we used to think it was viable before we discovered halflings
Are you actually saying someone told you that PvP guilds included many CWs as a good class in their makeups? That never happened.