Well actually he is arguing that skill compensates a lack of gear.
Other way around buddy
Nope. He was arguing that both ways should be present, while i was arguing - and demanding - that gear should not matter regardless in which way. On my HR for example I played very many matches, yet I am still grouped up with - and against - people with 4-5k GS more than me. Not because I am full blue/green, but because of their enchants. They make a tremendous difference.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
btw about ladders- this works for thousands of games (about 13 million players use it and it has been around over 10 years) and is as simple as it gets: http://www.igl.net/
The Ranking System - Top
Case's Ladder has one of the simplest ranking systems ever used for competitive play. We call it a "Ladder" because each member holds a unique rank or "rung" that represents their standing among other members. The highest-ranked member holds the #1 Ladder position; someone ranked #2 is ranked below the #1 member. The goal is to "climb" the Ladder all the way to the top!
When you first join you are placed in an "unranked" category on the Ladder, and you become "ranked" after winning your first Ladder match. When you defeat a higher-ranked member, you move up in rank half the distance between their rank and your own. For example, if you are ranked #50 and you defeat the #1-ranked member, then your new rank would be #25. Your rank on the Ladder does not go down if you lose a match unless your opponent is ranked DIRECTLY below you. When members ranked below you are victorious against members ranked above you, it's possible the member will jump over you in rank and you will move down one rung.
I played spades for many years on this ladder, my team was #9 out of 30k people on that ladder. Encourage team play, facilitate premades. IT IS A GROUP GAME ANYWAYS. A GROUP GAME. Make people register teams. Rank the teams. In a perfect world pugs would be all 1v1. You throw 5 random people in a group vs 5 other random people and it is a clown show, will always be a clown show.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Make people register teams. Rank the teams. In a perfect world pugs would be all 1v1. You throw 5 random people in a group vs 5 other random people and it is a clown show, will always be a clown show.
Yes, this is another suggestion which I find very natural. But random queueing can be made good as well IMO if all enchants are taken out of the game or you have GS margins (of maybe 2k each margin). Not everyone is in the mood to get 4 buddies and play on a regular basis. I'd like to join a PvP match and enjoy it when I desire.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Yes, this is another suggestion which I find very natural. But random queueing can be made good as well IMO if all enchants are taken out of the game or you have GS margins (of maybe 2k each margin). Not everyone is in the mood to get 4 buddies and play on a regular basis. I'd like to join a PvP match and enjoy it when I desire.
Well GS matchmaking as pointed out is a huge problem because it is easily exploited in many ways. Taking all enchants out means less incentive for people to either play the game to earn them, or straight out buy them. Neverwinter is WAAAYYY too gear oriented and that is a problem that just can't be solved, will always cause high player turnover which consequently will bugger any matchmaking system that requires the same players playing many matches over a period of time.
btw "forcing pugs to be premades" need not be such a huge issue. To kill two birds with one stone- all of the players currently in q for a pug could simply show on a players list (much like friends list), and we could invite from there. When two groups of five emerge, you have your match.
PanzerJäger HR Hybrid Jugger Conq GF
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well GS matchmaking as pointed out is a huge problem because it is easily exploited in many ways. Taking all enchants out means less incentive for people to either play the game to earn them, or straight out buy them. Neverwinter is WAAAYYY too gear oriented and that is a problem that just can't be solved, will always cause high player turnover which consequently will bugger any matchmaking system that requires the same players playing many matches over a period of time.
On the other hand there are people who would like to play more if these issues are resolved. With module 3 people can still use all their equipment to fight against others, while in a more 'professional' leage that equipment would be disabled. I dont think that people will stop improving their toons in that scenario. It would on the other hand make alot more fun imo.
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And another point is that honor should be given according to the end standings... it is very stupid if you played in a match lasting 30min and get only a few honor points just because it was a close loss. This is a crazy time sink for little gain. Especially if you play very often -and assuming that your skill and gear doesnt change - you are very likely grouped into a match in with you have 50% win chance. This is independent if you lack in skill or if you shine in skill - and in the end you may have a close loss.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Anyone knows that without a decent melee player on your team gwf or gf and the other team has them your doomed to lose, so why doesnt the game understand that? http://gyazo.com/0927d5d1490b19c8c296d22e54a5681f
This is mostly due to the elo system not matching matches like it should.
Waaaaaay too many times in the passed couple of weeks I've been put into matches where the gaps in power were just way too great. We either lose by over 700 points or win by over 700 points.
assuming that the elo system isn't matching matches like it should is based on what factual information exactly? how fast you're getting queued into pvp?
the theory that a higher gear score should be an indicator of a higher ranked player is a really bad theory. i see dozens of complaints here on the forums about bad pugs and people running to the home base or single players running to the center cap... or players fighting off cap... but your limited to view your own teams gs, not to mention who knows if gear swapping happens which could affect this theory or if people are playing for the kill, not the mechanics of capping nodes. and then there's the possibility that someone has a high gs but is a casual pvper.
gs does not equal elo rank. if gear score was the indicator of a skilled player, then i'm sure the matchmaking system would have been built around it but the fact is, it isn't. and it wasn't.
in my view based on my play style, the new matchmaker system works perfectly for me. it is a far better experience today than it was before. and i can understand why people that like to set up custom matches aren't having fun with queuing premades because they were able to manipulate the queue before to match up against premade teams they wanted to play. today, they can't do that because of the leaver penalty. hopefully, PWE will get a custom match option in there shortly after module 3 drops. there's no reason why people shouldn't have a variety of options based on their play styles... all within reason, of course. too many queue options would make pvp's queue times horrible... unless they were listed as "preferences" and the these preferences could be throttled up or down depending on queue times.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
the theory that a higher gear score should be an indicator of a higher ranked player is a really bad theory.
No one said that skill and gear is coupled in any way. But if you buff up your toon like crazy and go into PvP, you should end up in a bracket where people have similar gear than you. I consider everything else as twinking and p2 ... you know
gs does not equal elo rank. if gear score was the indicator of a skilled player, then i'm sure the matchmaking system would have been built around it but the fact is, it isn't. and it wasn't.
Yes, this is the point: GS does not have anything to do with ELO. Only the overal performance matters.
So in the current system it is absoutely irrelevant if you play a squishy PvE CW with totally messed up feats or a Sentinel GWF with r10s: If you play many matches, you will end up in a margin where you will have 50% win chance. It doesnt matter what you play or how good you are.
And this is the point which I do not like with the current system: I want to have a win chance according to my skill only.
in my view based on my play style, the new matchmaker system works perfectly for me. it is a far better experience today than it was before.
I too made the same experience. But if you play more often you will understand what I want to say: If you play many matches, you will usually end up in matches where your chance to win is ~50%. Regardless of how good or bad you are - you will not have an influence on it. It sounds funny because you think that skill will influence it, but this is already included in the probability this is how ELO works. Usually these matches are quite close and long and if you loose even with a small gap you gain very low honor for alot time invested. My point is that skill should have influence on the outcome of a match. This works only if you take the gear differences into consideration when matchmaking.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
To me, the PvP changes helped to improve the experience. Before the changes, i got 99% of the matches that were unbalanced. 70% of the times my team crushing the enemy, ragequit in the first minutes and then just wait. 29% of the times my team being crushed, then a couple of quits and then me enjoying a long wait at the campfire (going down just to get swarmed 4-5v1 is so stupid and nonsense i don't even consider it). 1% of the time i could join a balanced match. Was either a very lucky pug match, or being the 5th man in a premade v premade match.
Now, i can say 50% of the times i get balanced games, and 50% of the times i get unbalanced games. With, also, the difference that right now people keep fighting. They may lose 1000-500, but they still try to cap points, kill enemies and earn points.
Also, the blue PvP gear is sold for so much AD in the AH that people is encouraged to play and try to be the top scorer.
2 simple changes that, imho, would fix the remaining issues of PvP matchmaking:
- allow a separate queue for preformed groups to play against other random preformed groups
- allow the normal queue to be used only if not in a Group
- introduce a mid-game scramble system to auto-balance a match being too unbalanced:
at 150 points difference in score, 1st grade scramble: the system auto-scrambles the teams based on performance during the match (score). The losing team gets a little buff for a short period of time.
if the game is still not balanced and the score difference increases, at 250 points difference in score, 2nd grade scramble: the 2 best players (score) of the winning team go to the losing team, and the 2 worst players (score) of the losing team go to the winning team. Buff to the losing team is extended.
These changes could get rid of the premade vs pug issue. It's getting worst right now for a simple reason: people started to LFG for PvP too, a lot more. "LFM 15k GS DPS FOR PVP" exc... are more frequent. Must get rid of it. You go premade, you get matched against other premades. You queue alone, you go pug.
The scramble system, if working well, could get rid of the remaining unbalanced games, through a re-mixing of the teams.
After that, can introduce a "inactivity prevention system".
- Staying in spawn area for more than 2 minutes will result in the player being kicked out of the game and getting the quitter penalty.
- Staying dead and do not respawn for more than 2 minutes will result in the same as above
The kicked player is immediately replaced by another player who is in queue for PvP, with similar ELO rating. If there's no player with similar ELO available, the one with ELO closest to the kicked player, is joined.
Just a rough bunch of ideas, but can't think to another way to fix what is left to fix in PvP.
I believe they should implement the match making algorithm based partly on gear score and partly on a sorting algorithm.
Every player should get a (hidden) score number, which I will call "PvP Score" here, and which somewhat equals their own gear score, but is also determined by the number of wins and losses they had. This means players can influence their "PvP Score" by the way they play without actually changing their gear score. Good players may be able to hold their ground against players with higher gear score, and bad players will have a chance to fight more often in lower GS fights.
Using a sorting algorithm then keeps placing players with an somewhat equal "PvP Score" against each other.
You may see matches where you are being stuck into a team with a gear score lower than your own, but then you should not complain about, but be able to gain a victory. And you may see matches where you have to fight players with higher gear scores than your own, but that would be because you are good enough to beat them. And if you see a player with "uber gear" and a superior gear score than your own then it is only because this player is actually pretty bad at PvP and has been losing far more fights than he has won.
Interestingly, my recent experiences have told me that even GS isn't a real factor.
Just far too many people with 14~16k GS and yet, thoroughly and hilariously unprepared for pvp. I've been seeing a lot of these, especially (I don't know what the reason is but..) with GWF/GF fighter classes.
All sorts of idiocy ranging from a GWF/GF thinking he's some sort of TR and just abandoning the big fights where the tanks/meathshields are most needed and running backnodes for personal score... to Great Weapon Tofus and Guardian Butters... just melting even when something sneezes at them.
Ofcourse, newbie-idiocy is spread more or less equally to all classes, such as HRs thinking they're some sorta lonewolf bad-HAMSTER, never on the node, running 100feet backwards so long as something gives them the look, racking up kills and yet zero contribution to winning the match.... cws that don't last even for 10 secs against anything if no meatshields around.. TRs thinking copying the FotM PoB builds is going to do any good.. DCs that are utterly worthless and even two of these don't do as much healing/protecting the team than one good DC... but all in all, the most common idiocy I've seen come from GF/GWFs.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Interestingly, my recent experiences have told me that even GS isn't a real factor.
I would assume you can empirically devalue that statement. Higher GS should always give you a better shot at winning when you take skill out of consideration.
That said, GS contributes to the "skill" that factors into the ELO, but that does not necessarily mean you don't have to adjust separately for the variable in a way that winning against opponents with superior GS is worth more than the other way round. A very complex field to say the least, and since nobody knows the formula it's rather inconclusive to theorize about it.
I don't think this game has the population to support full on bracketing. You have to either accept that some matches will be imbalanced, or accept very long queue times.
Funny. This is exactly what the ELO system does. So why add GS to the equation?
Simply because gear is a factor in the fights and the current complaints are about gear scores. So you make it part of the system and everyone gets what they want (or deserve).
Further should player behaviour alone not determine how the queue matches teams up. It would only help in exploiting the mechanics. Some players might throw matches purposely before the Arena PvP Event only to get a better chance at winning during the event and to gain more glory. This would suck hard for the regular PvPers, who play all the time and not only during the event.
PvP is 95% of the time either a boring walkover or a totally frustrating, crushing defeat. 5% of the time we have matched teams that both have some idea what they are doing and can win or lose by 30 points.
There should be some sort of seeding system, like they do with golf and tennis. You never got Bjorn Borg playing against a total unknown in the Wimbledon finals and winning 6:0, 6:0, 6:0 with straight aces.
They should really sort this mess out, as it encourages the more infantile and juvenile players to be utterly obnoxious towards their own team, tantrum raging about gear scores etc.
assuming that the elo system isn't matching matches like it should is based on what factual information exactly? how fast you're getting queued into pvp?
the theory that a higher gear score should be an indicator of a higher ranked player is a really bad theory. i see dozens of complaints here on the forums about bad pugs and people running to the home base or single players running to the center cap... or players fighting off cap... but your limited to view your own teams gs, not to mention who knows if gear swapping happens which could affect this theory or if people are playing for the kill, not the mechanics of capping nodes. and then there's the possibility that someone has a high gs but is a casual pvper.
gs does not equal elo rank. if gear score was the indicator of a skilled player, then i'm sure the matchmaking system would have been built around it but the fact is, it isn't. and it wasn't.
in my view based on my play style, the new matchmaker system works perfectly for me. it is a far better experience today than it was before. and i can understand why people that like to set up custom matches aren't having fun with queuing premades because they were able to manipulate the queue before to match up against premade teams they wanted to play. today, they can't do that because of the leaver penalty. hopefully, PWE will get a custom match option in there shortly after module 3 drops. there's no reason why people shouldn't have a variety of options based on their play styles... all within reason, of course. too many queue options would make pvp's queue times horrible... unless they were listed as "preferences" and the these preferences could be throttled up or down depending on queue times.
Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
See you guys there.
you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
Sharandar boons and dailies, dread ring boons and dailies, like you said not enough skill points and feats, the gear imbalance is too much that it will take an even longer time (than it already is) to keep finding appropriate matches for you.
Too many reasons to not implement this. Too many factors to calculate, will make ELO even more horrible than it already is. They should not implement it just to justify and defend themselves against your argument.
Hmm...how about a variation of this idea. Keep all the existing divisions of PvP in place, but have Elo start on the players when they first start playing Pvp. The idea being that they will have an Elo ranking by the time hit level 60.
I believe a number of the complaints including my own about the blue gear players is due to the fact that they are "new" to the Elo system and so it takes time for the Elo system to get them matched "appropriately."
Especially since gear isn't a factor in the system at level 60, why should it matter in the lower levels? Wouldn't this help to speed up matchmaking if all the new level 60 players already have an Elo ranking?
you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
That is the most awesomely tolerant reply to a pretty terse post I think I've ever seen. Thanks! I know for any business the basic goal is to pick up more customers than you lose every month (or quarter), because customer attrition is simply a fact of business. I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
I would just like to say that I enjoy PvP, I do it A LOT with my cleric and I think the PvP system is a lot more balanced then it "was" thanks to the hard work of the guys behind the code. I will say I do disagree with the perma stelth rogue, "however" there is a artifact that fixes that issue but I don't think it last that long (never used it myself). I do find myself in lousy parties sometimes but I just brush it off and try my hardest to annoy the other team with CAPS. But I'll say this I've had far more close fights then I ever had with the old system, anyway just my two cents, oh and the cleric's daunting light's AOE.
A. Increase in damage output.
- or -
B. AOE needs to be a bit larger as right now in PvP even blued its hard to hit anything with it.
I would like to see it's AOE the same as flame strike when blued.
and on normal attack the same as it is blued at the moment.
I just feel that over the years playing a cleric they have been more AOE driven and right now that damage spell is lacking - bad...
I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
there's really no factual way to prove the population either way, but i definitely would never use the gold spammers as a gauge for the pulse of any game. those guys will do anything, including lowering their own prices, to sell more. there's also the ratio of true f2p players vs cash customers and there's no way to determine what percentage of which is more likely to take a break or to leave the game completely. just like anyone here on the forums could claim to be one or the other and you kind of have to take all of it with a grain of salt because none of it is provable. there are all kind of metrics that would be nice to know but unfortunately we will only get what is provided to us.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
well, you also can't gauge the state of the game or the implemented game changes by forum feedback alone. again, metrics along with additional avenues that people have to send in bug reports and feedback can be far more valuable than the same 50-100 forum regulars singing the same mantra over and over again. that's not to say that forum feedback isn't considered and appreciated, it's just not the entire picture.
plus we're literally about to see a new module drop soon so a lot of players have seen all there is to see and then some of dread ring and they're dying to see what's next.
i never quite understood this idea that playing a video game is like dating: you can only be with one at a time and if you break up with her, you're going to burn that bridge forever. but it's really not like that at all. i'm sure PWE is aware that direct competitors are dropping new titles soon, but look at STO and CO... they still have players in those games and develop new content for those games... not to mention those games have survived many a new title drop. they may not be the hot new titles they used to be but they still have that dedicated core player base. obviously all games have a life span, but i really don't see neverwinter as being in a downward spiral so soon.
Comments
Nope. He was arguing that both ways should be present, while i was arguing - and demanding - that gear should not matter regardless in which way. On my HR for example I played very many matches, yet I am still grouped up with - and against - people with 4-5k GS more than me. Not because I am full blue/green, but because of their enchants. They make a tremendous difference.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
http://www.igl.net/
I played spades for many years on this ladder, my team was #9 out of 30k people on that ladder. Encourage team play, facilitate premades. IT IS A GROUP GAME ANYWAYS. A GROUP GAME. Make people register teams. Rank the teams. In a perfect world pugs would be all 1v1. You throw 5 random people in a group vs 5 other random people and it is a clown show, will always be a clown show.
Jugger Conq GF
....
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Well GS matchmaking as pointed out is a huge problem because it is easily exploited in many ways. Taking all enchants out means less incentive for people to either play the game to earn them, or straight out buy them. Neverwinter is WAAAYYY too gear oriented and that is a problem that just can't be solved, will always cause high player turnover which consequently will bugger any matchmaking system that requires the same players playing many matches over a period of time.
btw "forcing pugs to be premades" need not be such a huge issue. To kill two birds with one stone- all of the players currently in q for a pug could simply show on a players list (much like friends list), and we could invite from there. When two groups of five emerge, you have your match.
Jugger Conq GF
....
On the other hand there are people who would like to play more if these issues are resolved. With module 3 people can still use all their equipment to fight against others, while in a more 'professional' leage that equipment would be disabled. I dont think that people will stop improving their toons in that scenario. It would on the other hand make alot more fun imo.
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And another point is that honor should be given according to the end standings... it is very stupid if you played in a match lasting 30min and get only a few honor points just because it was a close loss. This is a crazy time sink for little gain. Especially if you play very often -and assuming that your skill and gear doesnt change - you are very likely grouped into a match in with you have 50% win chance. This is independent if you lack in skill or if you shine in skill - and in the end you may have a close loss.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
http://gyazo.com/0927d5d1490b19c8c296d22e54a5681f
us:
2 hr 14k & 16k gs
2 tr 11k & 15k gs
1 cw 15k gs
them:
2 gwf idk 1 of their stats he wouldnt answer my pms so 12-15k other is 12k
1 gf 14k
1 dc 11k
1 tr 12k
??????????????????????????????
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
Waaaaaay too many times in the passed couple of weeks I've been put into matches where the gaps in power were just way too great. We either lose by over 700 points or win by over 700 points.
the theory that a higher gear score should be an indicator of a higher ranked player is a really bad theory. i see dozens of complaints here on the forums about bad pugs and people running to the home base or single players running to the center cap... or players fighting off cap... but your limited to view your own teams gs, not to mention who knows if gear swapping happens which could affect this theory or if people are playing for the kill, not the mechanics of capping nodes. and then there's the possibility that someone has a high gs but is a casual pvper.
gs does not equal elo rank. if gear score was the indicator of a skilled player, then i'm sure the matchmaking system would have been built around it but the fact is, it isn't. and it wasn't.
in my view based on my play style, the new matchmaker system works perfectly for me. it is a far better experience today than it was before. and i can understand why people that like to set up custom matches aren't having fun with queuing premades because they were able to manipulate the queue before to match up against premade teams they wanted to play. today, they can't do that because of the leaver penalty. hopefully, PWE will get a custom match option in there shortly after module 3 drops. there's no reason why people shouldn't have a variety of options based on their play styles... all within reason, of course. too many queue options would make pvp's queue times horrible... unless they were listed as "preferences" and the these preferences could be throttled up or down depending on queue times.
Yes, this is the point: GS does not have anything to do with ELO. Only the overal performance matters.
So in the current system it is absoutely irrelevant if you play a squishy PvE CW with totally messed up feats or a Sentinel GWF with r10s: If you play many matches, you will end up in a margin where you will have 50% win chance. It doesnt matter what you play or how good you are.
And this is the point which I do not like with the current system: I want to have a win chance according to my skill only. I too made the same experience. But if you play more often you will understand what I want to say: If you play many matches, you will usually end up in matches where your chance to win is ~50%. Regardless of how good or bad you are - you will not have an influence on it. It sounds funny because you think that skill will influence it, but this is already included in the probability
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Now, i can say 50% of the times i get balanced games, and 50% of the times i get unbalanced games. With, also, the difference that right now people keep fighting. They may lose 1000-500, but they still try to cap points, kill enemies and earn points.
Also, the blue PvP gear is sold for so much AD in the AH that people is encouraged to play and try to be the top scorer.
2 simple changes that, imho, would fix the remaining issues of PvP matchmaking:
- allow a separate queue for preformed groups to play against other random preformed groups
- allow the normal queue to be used only if not in a Group
- introduce a mid-game scramble system to auto-balance a match being too unbalanced:
at 150 points difference in score, 1st grade scramble: the system auto-scrambles the teams based on performance during the match (score). The losing team gets a little buff for a short period of time.
if the game is still not balanced and the score difference increases, at 250 points difference in score, 2nd grade scramble: the 2 best players (score) of the winning team go to the losing team, and the 2 worst players (score) of the losing team go to the winning team. Buff to the losing team is extended.
These changes could get rid of the premade vs pug issue. It's getting worst right now for a simple reason: people started to LFG for PvP too, a lot more. "LFM 15k GS DPS FOR PVP" exc... are more frequent. Must get rid of it. You go premade, you get matched against other premades. You queue alone, you go pug.
The scramble system, if working well, could get rid of the remaining unbalanced games, through a re-mixing of the teams.
After that, can introduce a "inactivity prevention system".
- Staying in spawn area for more than 2 minutes will result in the player being kicked out of the game and getting the quitter penalty.
- Staying dead and do not respawn for more than 2 minutes will result in the same as above
The kicked player is immediately replaced by another player who is in queue for PvP, with similar ELO rating. If there's no player with similar ELO available, the one with ELO closest to the kicked player, is joined.
Just a rough bunch of ideas, but can't think to another way to fix what is left to fix in PvP.
Every player should get a (hidden) score number, which I will call "PvP Score" here, and which somewhat equals their own gear score, but is also determined by the number of wins and losses they had. This means players can influence their "PvP Score" by the way they play without actually changing their gear score. Good players may be able to hold their ground against players with higher gear score, and bad players will have a chance to fight more often in lower GS fights.
Using a sorting algorithm then keeps placing players with an somewhat equal "PvP Score" against each other.
You may see matches where you are being stuck into a team with a gear score lower than your own, but then you should not complain about, but be able to gain a victory. And you may see matches where you have to fight players with higher gear scores than your own, but that would be because you are good enough to beat them. And if you see a player with "uber gear" and a superior gear score than your own then it is only because this player is actually pretty bad at PvP and has been losing far more fights than he has won.
Just far too many people with 14~16k GS and yet, thoroughly and hilariously unprepared for pvp. I've been seeing a lot of these, especially (I don't know what the reason is but..) with GWF/GF fighter classes.
All sorts of idiocy ranging from a GWF/GF thinking he's some sort of TR and just abandoning the big fights where the tanks/meathshields are most needed and running backnodes for personal score... to Great Weapon Tofus and Guardian Butters... just melting even when something sneezes at them.
Ofcourse, newbie-idiocy is spread more or less equally to all classes, such as HRs thinking they're some sorta lonewolf bad-HAMSTER, never on the node, running 100feet backwards so long as something gives them the look, racking up kills and yet zero contribution to winning the match.... cws that don't last even for 10 secs against anything if no meatshields around.. TRs thinking copying the FotM PoB builds is going to do any good.. DCs that are utterly worthless and even two of these don't do as much healing/protecting the team than one good DC... but all in all, the most common idiocy I've seen come from GF/GWFs.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I would assume you can empirically devalue that statement. Higher GS should always give you a better shot at winning when you take skill out of consideration.
That said, GS contributes to the "skill" that factors into the ELO, but that does not necessarily mean you don't have to adjust separately for the variable in a way that winning against opponents with superior GS is worth more than the other way round. A very complex field to say the least, and since nobody knows the formula it's rather inconclusive to theorize about it.
Further should player behaviour alone not determine how the queue matches teams up. It would only help in exploiting the mechanics. Some players might throw matches purposely before the Arena PvP Event only to get a better chance at winning during the event and to gain more glory. This would suck hard for the regular PvPers, who play all the time and not only during the event.
PvP is 95% of the time either a boring walkover or a totally frustrating, crushing defeat. 5% of the time we have matched teams that both have some idea what they are doing and can win or lose by 30 points.
There should be some sort of seeding system, like they do with golf and tennis. You never got Bjorn Borg playing against a total unknown in the Wimbledon finals and winning 6:0, 6:0, 6:0 with straight aces.
They should really sort this mess out, as it encourages the more infantile and juvenile players to be utterly obnoxious towards their own team, tantrum raging about gear scores etc.
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Just parity between teams. 10 lopsided matches in a row = broken matchmaking. I am being a merciless consumer the same way I would be if I was making any other consumer decision. I simply am not going to wait for some "fix" to fix its self so the game is fun for me. I will simply choose to do something else. As will most consumers. That is not a threat "do x or I quit", it is just considerate feedback from a consumer: "Your product is not on par with other products, and so you will likely lose customers". Call it free to play all you want, f2p games are a shopping mall which are free to enter and which provide an experience pleasant enough to make people want to buy stuff. Waiting twenty minutes in a line to get into the coolest store in the mall only to find that its products suck will cause people to stay away from that mall period. Sorry but this street is crowded with all kinds of awesome malls with no lines and great products.
See you guys there.
Jugger Conq GF
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you are absolutely correct. PWE has been doing f2p for a long time and are well aware of the kinds of players it brings... attracting players that might not normally be interested in an MMORPG but it gives them an opportunity to try it out. maybe they stay, maybe they don't. although i'm pretty sure that PWE is not worried about losing a few players because it probably happens daily. i don't have any numbers to prove it but i do know that jack emmert is aware as he spoke of this in a 2013 article.
they are most certainly aware that they have a core player base that is willing to wait through changes and waits for content and events. you're not limited to be part of any particular group either. you're welcome to come and go as you please. we just ask that your feedback is constructive and respectful and to limit your goodbyes to in-game. that's all.
Hmm...how about a variation of this idea. Keep all the existing divisions of PvP in place, but have Elo start on the players when they first start playing Pvp. The idea being that they will have an Elo ranking by the time hit level 60.
I believe a number of the complaints including my own about the blue gear players is due to the fact that they are "new" to the Elo system and so it takes time for the Elo system to get them matched "appropriately."
Especially since gear isn't a factor in the system at level 60, why should it matter in the lower levels? Wouldn't this help to speed up matchmaking if all the new level 60 players already have an Elo ranking?
That is the most awesomely tolerant reply to a pretty terse post I think I've ever seen. Thanks! I know for any business the basic goal is to pick up more customers than you lose every month (or quarter), because customer attrition is simply a fact of business. I am saying that I think, my opinion, that the problem is so bad right now that the growth to attrition ratio has to be in a red zone. In other words, I can see the population of paying customers shrinking. Not just because I want to buy less, but it is what I hear from others as well. And crazy as it sounds, the gold spammers are a decent indication of what is up with the portion of the NWO population that is willing to pay money. Their prices are going down down down. I saw a 30% drop since the pvp patch, which recently corrected its self back up to about a 20% drop and it seems to be stabilizing there.
It is just frustrating because with the amazing combat mechanics and obvious passion the devs have for this game, pvp could be truly epic in NWO. But it always looks like the wrong solutions are applied. The issue of lopsided matches was serious enough for the dev team to respond really quickly. But with a system that takes A LONG TIME to actually work. You get how that doesnt make sense.
I'll still be here :P I will still get a bug up my, er, wallet, and shell out a few bucks for something spiffy. But maybe a quarter of what I spent when I was more optimistic. The rest will be spent in other f2p's which will use up most of my gaming time. NWO is becoming one of those games thats like, "Man I love that game, if only this or if only that..." that a player comes back to occasionally to see if stuff was fixed. To be really open and honest, I used to buy about every new mount that came out and a good bit of zen to convert to ad to speed-refine artifacts and enchants. This month all I did was spend the two bucks to give one of my characters a new look. Thats like $120.00 down to $5.00. If that is at all representative of everyone else it is not a good sign for NWO. I'm not sure how they can constantly nerf classes and expect people to want to buy anything at all. The gwf and hr upcoming nerfs are going to be devastating. If they are going to nerf things, they need to get rid of vorpal, period, and make the crit severity a universal feat option that comes at a high price in terms of builds. It would make everyone mad who spent the less than $100 on their p vorp, but it would definitely be better than destroying classes that people have spent thousands of dollars on. My two cents. I just love this game and I hate to see it dying like this.
A. Increase in damage output.
- or -
B. AOE needs to be a bit larger as right now in PvP even blued its hard to hit anything with it.
I would like to see it's AOE the same as flame strike when blued.
and on normal attack the same as it is blued at the moment.
I just feel that over the years playing a cleric they have been more AOE driven and right now that damage spell is lacking - bad...
there's really no factual way to prove the population either way, but i definitely would never use the gold spammers as a gauge for the pulse of any game. those guys will do anything, including lowering their own prices, to sell more. there's also the ratio of true f2p players vs cash customers and there's no way to determine what percentage of which is more likely to take a break or to leave the game completely. just like anyone here on the forums could claim to be one or the other and you kind of have to take all of it with a grain of salt because none of it is provable. there are all kind of metrics that would be nice to know but unfortunately we will only get what is provided to us.
well, you also can't gauge the state of the game or the implemented game changes by forum feedback alone. again, metrics along with additional avenues that people have to send in bug reports and feedback can be far more valuable than the same 50-100 forum regulars singing the same mantra over and over again. that's not to say that forum feedback isn't considered and appreciated, it's just not the entire picture.
plus we're literally about to see a new module drop soon so a lot of players have seen all there is to see and then some of dread ring and they're dying to see what's next.
i never quite understood this idea that playing a video game is like dating: you can only be with one at a time and if you break up with her, you're going to burn that bridge forever. but it's really not like that at all. i'm sure PWE is aware that direct competitors are dropping new titles soon, but look at STO and CO... they still have players in those games and develop new content for those games... not to mention those games have survived many a new title drop. they may not be the hot new titles they used to be but they still have that dedicated core player base. obviously all games have a life span, but i really don't see neverwinter as being in a downward spiral so soon.