No offense, but you clearly have no idea how an ELO system works. But to make a long answer short: people with better gear win more matches. Therefor they'll be pitted against people with the same gear lvl eventually. After all, the more matches you win, the quicker you'll have better gear.
Blablabla.... you have no idea .... i know very well how ELO system works. The point is that you will not have gear in the first place and are grouped against better geared people if you do well. This is exactly the effect the OP described. In addition you see it by example in the game. Some people like me want to get grouped entirely in the same gear margin.
EDIT: I admit that in the game they tweaked this system for the sake of shorter queue times.
EDIT2: IMO the only solution of the problem is to have an option to play PvP matches in which all enchants (weapons/armor/slots) on the gear are turned off. Then there should be no problem if there are 'too few' people queueing. All have similar gear (blue isnt alot different than epic and epics are easy to get)
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
It is about wins and losses in relation to ratings.
Two people can have the exact same number of wins and losses and have very different Elo Ratings. That is because your rating only changes based on the rating of each team. If you lose to much higher ranked players you will lose rating but only a small amount. Alternatively if you lose to much lower ranked players you will lose a lot of points.
Please look up how the Elo Rating System works. It is not a fixed win/loss system.
Yes leavers are a problem but it is self induced. Leaving makes the issue worse and extends the time in which the ratings will remain unstable. Honestly...they cause that problem. Not Cryptic. They do. The sooner the immature leaving stops the sooner the system will work correctly.
Actually, I agree with you. This is the first educational post that I've seen so far which in itself is kind of disappointing (not against you). I think I'm giving up on discussing issues on the forums lol.
You pointed out my lack of information regarding the Elo Rating system. It's not just a problem in my post though. It's a problem with the majority of the posts I've seen regarding the Elo system. Most people are not educated on what the Elo system is about and how it works. So instead of sending people off on their own to learn about the Elo system, can someone make a stickie about the Elo system explaining what it is and how it works so we can reason to stop most of these unnecessary misinformation posts about the Elo system.
My question about your leaver solution is that do you think that will ever happen? Immature leaving actually stopping? Or the broader question, how can you encourage good sportsmanship? especially without developer help.
And you will be. Crying it takes time to get a stable score isn't going to help you or anyone in your team. Instead keep playing. I'm not one of your godly PvP people, but I found my score settling rather quickly. Within a few days I got matched against and with similar people and that hasn't changed since. People on the extreme ends of the ladder will have to wait longer sometimes till there's more people with your score before you keep getting balanced matches. It's harder to reach that level. Till then you risk being matched with people lower than you. It's either that or no match at all. Your choice.
Please... i am not 'crying' ok? Lets assume for simplicity you dont purchase new gear and you dont improve or degenerate in skill. If you play many matches, you will then (by the ELO) end up in a margin where you will have 50% chance to win a match.
Now the point is that the percentage of how skill, gear and your class contribute to your overal performance will vary from player to player. Some may have horrible skill but very good gear for example, some have exceptional skill but poor gear. Even if they differ, their overal performance can be the same. So they will be matched against each other even at an infinite repetition of matches. And this is the situation some people like me dont want, because it will result in a 50% chance to win a match at infinity in which you may loose or win because of gear differences.
In the situation in which you have fixed gear margins (lets assume all have the same gear and class for simplicity), then your win ration will depend on your skill only (as the number of matches tend to infinity). This is the option we'd like to see.
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
I love how it went from "it will take about 30 matches" to "a few months" for elo to work correctly, I am already way north of 200 pvp matches, stop kidding yourselves either ELO has been turn off entirely or it is broken beyond repair, the ELO system works well in games with a huge player base, in a game like Neverwinter it will NEVER work as intended, the player base is simply to small, and will most likely only get smaller ... because of this matchmaking will always be lopsided, and if/when they re activate ELO the Q times will always be long, there is absolutely no way around this .
Why not listen to the PVP community for once by making a solo Q, a more than 1 person in a group Q, and a full premade Q? for one it would be easier to implement than ELO, and it would sure as **** work better .
I love how it went from "it will take about 30 matches" to "a few months" for elo to work correctly, I am already way north of 200 pvp matches, stop kidding yourselves either ELO has been turn off entirely or it is broken beyond repair, the ELO system works well in games with a huge player base, in a game like Neverwinter it will NEVER work as intended, the player base is simply to small, and will most likely only get smaller ... because of this matchmaking will always be lopsided, and if/when they re activate ELO the Q times will always be long, there is absolutely no way around this .
Why not listen to the PVP community for once by making a solo Q, a more than 1 person in a group Q, and a full premade Q? for one it would be easier to implement than ELO, and it would sure as **** work better .
i actually think it will never work if it requires thousands of matches as newer players will just screw up that balance entirely. i know i have done over a hundred matches on both my rogue and cleric and it's just silly how imbalanced some matches are.
my last match involved my non-perma rogue simply stomping over everyone as all 9 other players could not compare to my 13k rogue. 24 kills and i don't think a single other person had 10 kills (i should of saved the pic). in fact, i carried my whole team and still lost despite frequently killing 2-3 people by myself. i even won a 1 vs 2 while starting with 20% of my hp.........it simply isn't fair to everyone else when i get matched against them. near the end, i checked and there was 1 8k, 2 10-12k, and 1 15k on my team i think but they were nowhere near on par with me.
sad part is that my biggest reason for losing is my own team being undergeared or maybe inexperienced.
Probably inexperienced, not fighting on the nodes, not contesting etc... after all nubs will be nubs, I have also had horrible clueless pugs in pretty much every game that I have solo Queued for, to the point were I no longer solo Q .
I also agree that ELO will never work as intended, your reasoning is entirely correct, if you add to that the limited player base, we will (even a few months from now) have completely lopsided matchmaking, and more than likely horrible Q times, and before anyone says, hey but that's been fixed, the only reason that it seems to be fixed is ELO has been turned OFF, or dialed down so much that it is completely useless .
Essence of Aggression, OG PvP GWF
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
Nobody official said 30 matches. Those were all player made numbers and player made claims.
Try to find it. You won't.
In fact I have always said it doesn't matter how many matches you have competed in and is actually effected by how many matches everybody has competed in.
I said it will improve indefinitely with time. As in it stabilizes more and more with time.
Once it stabilizes though it won't take longer for new players to get accurately rated as that is what that 30 match statement is actually in regards to. The unknown variable is how long it will take to stabilize. It could stabilize tomorrow or months from now. But the only way for it to stabilize is time.
And that is my broken record for weeks and I predict I will be singing that tune for weeks more. That is the facts though, the system needs time to stabilize and it will take time. The word of advice though is the more you guys throw matches for stupid reasons such as leaving the longer it will take.
Yes leavers are a problem but it is self induced. Leaving makes the issue worse and extends the time in which the ratings will remain unstable. Honestly...they cause that problem. Not Cryptic. They do. The sooner the immature leaving stops the sooner the system will work correctly.
I just find it ironic that these people who happen to have 8 hours of free time each day to play neverwinter will somehow then rationalize that they have "a lot of stuff to do" and so they cannot play out the match
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
As to why not make a premade and a solo queue...
Because that is not a matchmaking system.
That is saying because there is no oranges we need apples.
A premade queue is not a solution to lopsided matches. News flash not everybody who is in a premade are geared up the wazoo nor is non-premade groups all the same skill level.
It's something to consider on top of matchmaking but is point blank, no question, can't be justified in your wildest dreams, a solution to a matchmaking system.
For the love of goodness gracious please stop. It doesn't make a bit of sense.
You missed the point entirely, player base is too small for the match making to work as the devs expect it to, unless you are willing to deal with 30+ minute Q times .
You also overlooked that new players, or established players new alts will skew the matchmaking continually, because they too will have to pvp for their rank to stabilize, so it is entirely possible that ELO might never stabilize, thus we will continue to get lopsided matchmaking ...
As for the full premade Q/semi premade Q/solo Q, I agree that it isn't ideal matchmaking, it could even be added alongside of ELO (or ELO like matchmaking system) it would go a long way to help solo players not get stomped by premades, how is this not matchmaking??? As it stands I am pretty sure this is one of the main reasons pvp matches are so lopsided, 9 times out of 10 we roflstomp the other team, even when we are just a semi premade, why? because we are fighting people that have solo Queued, and we are on TS countering their every move .
gear matching for the sake of gathering a group together... if that were implemented today, i could go into the match with all blues and once i've been matched waiting for the game to start, i could swap into my BiS gear and then proceed to troll and grief the opposing team.
a solution to this would be to disallow gear swapping in a match, but i think that should be a requirement anyway. at least while on the battlefield. but if they were to implement some kind of gear matching, it would have to be restricted.
gear matching would likely cause queue delays unless they had some way to dial down the requirements. let's say i have one r7 but the rest rank 5s and a lesser soulforged and a greater bilethorn. is it fair to match me with someone with a greater or perfect soulforged with all r7s? wouldn't that also kill the diversity in builds? even though tenacity has been introduced with tenacity gear, tenacity gear is not required to enter the pvp arena. therefore build diversity is still highly possible with the current system. if i have to think about my gear decisions to make sure i'm going to be able to queue is sort of ridiculous.
here is what wikipedia says about the elo rating system:
A number represents a player's Elo rating and increases or decreases based upon the outcome of games between rated players. After every game, the winning player takes points from the losing one. The difference between the ratings of the winner and loser determines the total number of points gained or lost after a game. In a series of games between a high-rated player and a low-rated player, the high-rated player is expected to score more wins. If the high-rated player wins, then only a few rating points will be taken from the low-rated player whereas if the lower rated player scores an upset win, then many rating points will be transferred. The lower rated player will also gain a few points from the higher rated player in the event of a draw. The rating system thus is self-correcting. A player whose rating is too low should, in the long run, do better than the rating system predicts and thereby gain rating points until the rating reflects his or her true playing strength.
so it would seem that the basis of the system is to try to match players as close as possible but when that is not possible, it will put mismatched teams together. how strict that is depends on variable controls. early on in the implementation of the system, it's probably advantageous to dial it down to make the requirements less strict. as more matches are played, there may come a time to dial it up to be more strict.
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adernathMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
gear matching would likely cause queue delays unless they had some way to dial down the requirements. let's say i have one r7 but the rest rank 5s and a lesser soulforged and a greater bilethorn. is it fair to match me with someone with a greater or perfect soulforged with all r7s? wouldn't that also kill the diversity in builds? even though tenacity has been introduced with tenacity gear, tenacity gear is not required to enter the pvp arena. therefore build diversity is still highly possible with the current system. if i have to think about my gear decisions to make sure i'm going to be able to queue is sort of ridiculous.
I think my suggestion (have an optional pvp queue in which all enchants are disabled) is the simplest, because in this scenario you dont really have to introduce different gear margins. To reduce the diversification in builds by taking out the enchants is IMO a 'disadvantage' I would accept when queueing. Usually ego shooters dont have a diversification either, still they make fun And still you can diversify with feats (even better if we would have dualspec).
here is what wikipedia says about the elo rating system:
<snip>
Again no need to explain ELO. ELO doesnt care about your gear, it cares only about your overall performance (the result of gear+skill+class). If for simplicity your overall performance doesnt change, then you will end up in a margin with 50% win chance when the number of matches tend to infinity. If you further assume that people develop different degrees of skill, then gear mismatches can happen even after many matches. Some people like me dont like this scenario (i.e. they like to have a win chance dependent entirely on their skill when the number of matches tend to infinity).
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
A ladder system could alleviate the problem, minus 12K GS players go up against each other, between 12K-15K GS players go up against each other, and 15K+ go up against each other, the only problem with this is different classes have different gear scores, they would have to determine an equivalent bracket for each class, for example an 18,5K GS GF is equal to a 16K GS GWF which is equal to a 15K TR etc this would put you in the 15K+ bracket (pulled these numbers out of my @ss just to be clear), they would have to remove the possibility to swap gear as soon as you enter Q .
As for weapon or armor enchants they could also create something like an enchantment score (ES), lessers would give you less points than perfects obviously, they could then add an ES bracket to the ladder system ...
I have put very little though into this, a whole team of devs should easily come up with a better system .
Essence of Aggression, OG PvP GWF
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
That is why gear is not considered.
It doesn't matter how good your gear is if you don't put it to good use. Gear can either compensate for a lack of playskill or playskill can compensate for a lack of gear.
There is no valid argument that either type of player should be matched directly based on Gear Score as both situations will result in a person winning or losing A LOT. Gear mismatches are going to happen and should happen because gear is not in any way shape or form an accurate way to judge players.
Some players will need a higher gear score than others to be competitive and some players will be extremely competitive with lower gear score. That is the key essential point blank fact of the matter why the Elo System is used over gear scores. There are very few opinions I will ever say are "wrong" but saying that you want gear to be a driving factor is wrong because it will drive less skilled players to perpetually lose and more skilled players to perpetually win. And that just can not be justified. I am sorry but it can not be justified!
Then us 16K+ GS players with BiS gear will just have to get used to getting matched with (or against) 7K GS players, it is unfair to us when they are on our team and it is even more unfair to them when they are on the other side .
I am not arguing the fact that on paper ELO is nice, but in reality it is wonky at best, I personally never said I want gear to be a driving factor, skill trumps GS in most cases (to a certain degree), my previous post was an idea of a system that might work, because in the mean time ELO does not, and probably never will work, fair/even matchmaking with ELO is a pipe dream .
Essence of Aggression, OG PvP GWF
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited March 2014
That is happening because the system is still unstable. You may be ranked lower than you should be and/or they are ranked higher than they should be. As time goes on that will decrease as the other players scores will stabilize where they need to be.
And as a general rule of thumb the population of players will always be in the middle.
While Cryptic will strive to make matches at either end as fast and enjoyable as possible the fact of the matter is there is factually less players on either end of the spectrum. As such there is a consideration to be had between fast queues and ideally balanced matches.
And that is a factual aspect of the player populations of all games. There are always less people on the top and bottom and putting people based on Gear Score will not solve that. No matter what game you play this is the way it functions as this is how populations are naturally distributed.
What can be done is tightening restrictions on the match making limitations but that will result in longer queue times.
This is something the devs have been looking at behind the scenes but it again will take.time to find a sweet spot in the queue limits and in players getting accurately rated to begin with.
It doesn't matter how good your gear is if you don't put it to good use. Gear can either compensate for a lack of playskill or playskill can compensate for a lack of gear.
There is no valid argument that either type of player should be matched directly based on Gear Score as both situations will result in a person winning or losing A LOT. Gear mismatches are going to happen and should happen because gear is not in any way shape or form an accurate way to judge players.
Some players will need a higher gear score than others to be competitive and some players will be extremely competitive with lower gear score. That is the key essential point blank fact of the matter why the Elo System is used over gear scores. There are very few opinions I will ever say are "wrong" but saying that you want gear to be a driving factor is wrong because it will drive less skilled players to perpetually lose and more skilled players to perpetually win. And that just can not be justified. I am sorry but it can not be justified!
Of course there is a very valid argument: Take aside various classes for a moment, then your win-loss ratio in this scenario would be be based entirely on your skill. If you lack in skill you will lose more often, that is the hard way, but fair PvP.
I dont understand why are you seriously arguing that gear should compensate lack in skill. This is exactly what we do NOT want. We do NOT want a compensation of skill by gear which ELO creates. Since it is not possible to set up our own matches, all we demand the possibility to join an alternative PvP queue in which gear doesnt play a role (it would be sufficient to disable all enchants).
Suggestions to improve NW:
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Since it is not possible to set up our own matches, all we demand the possibility to join an alternative PvP queue in which gear doesnt play a role (it would be sufficient to disable all enchants).
i'm pretty sure the ability to set up custom matches will be an option in the future.
So based on the current trend of posts on this thread, here's my question. Why not do away with the level 50 pvp matches and just incorporate them into the level 60 matches if Elo is going to "balance out" the gear mismatching through it's ranking system?
The first counterargument to this question is the level 50-59 players don't have all their skills yet as compared to the level 60 players. But, according to some of the logic that is being put forth in this thread in justifying the Level 60 matchup, this should also be eventually balanced out by the Elo ranking system.
As a reminder, my original post wasn't about gear score. It was about overall gear level matching and that I think it's too extreme in range to be classified as a single level 60. I personally think the gear level crosses at least 1 more level (eg. there should be a level 61). Don't get me wrong, I do like disparity between players otherwise we would all be playing the exact same characters. I just think in it's current form that it's too wide a range (extreme). And it's these extreme matches and only these extreme matches that should be addressed in some fashion so they don't exist anymore.
All the rest of the mismatches need to remain and the players need to learn how to play better tactics.
Just like there is a certain gearscore requirment for most high level dungeons it only seems logical to have a gearscore for cetrain ranks of pvp, I love the idea. Fully support
AH, specific premade vs premade! I didn't actually know about that STO feature, that's pretty neat. We are planning more long term support for PvP and have some already in the works. This feature is definitely something we could do relatively easily, though we are locking down our next module at the moment so it probably wont come out soon.
I think something else may be coming to at least partially scratch the premade vs premade itch you have... Keep an eye out for upcoming news posts about our next module.
So based on the current trend of posts on this thread, here's my question. Why not do away with the level 50 pvp matches and just incorporate them into the level 60 matches if Elo is going to "balance out" the gear mismatching through it's ranking system?
The first counterargument to this question is the level 50-59 players don't have all their skills yet as compared to the level 60 players. But, according to some of the logic that is being put forth in this thread in justifying the Level 60 matchup, this should also be eventually balanced out by the Elo ranking system.
I could be wrong and would love to hear why.
Sharandar boons and dailies, dread ring boons and dailies, like you said not enough skill points and feats, the gear imbalance is too much that it will take an even longer time (than it already is) to keep finding appropriate matches for you.
Too many reasons to not implement this. Too many factors to calculate, will make ELO even more horrible than it already is. They should not implement it just to justify and defend themselves against your argument.
the problem is not with your ELO rating but theirs.
If you have played 200 matches than your ELO should be pretty static by now but if you take another player that only has played say 5-10 matches than his could be wildly in flux. Depending on who they got teamed with in their first few matches they could have a wildly inflated ELO compared to their actual skill as the ELO rating for the win is based on team rating and not individual rating.
This is why the elo system will never work in Neverwinter. There are always an influx of new pvp players + pvp players that only play rarely. They say it takes time. Just wait. Time. Maybe months. MONTHS! lol. In months there will be so much turnover in the pvp playerbase that the system can never really become stable. Time. The problem is time. Long ques = less matches played = more turnover = even longer time for the thing to become stable.
Simple solution:
League play and pugs:
Pug q's will always be random based on nothing other than no more than only individuals q'ing.
League q's would require registered premade, named, teams. A ladder. TEAM RANKS, not individuals. As long as three of the original players who were present when the team was registered are present, they can fill out the rest of the team with anyone else who accepts the invite.
Pugs will always be problematic simply because NWO is so gear centric. By gear-centric I mean things like vorpal. Crit severity should NEVER be based in an item, but rather in a class build. Gear has no negative counterbalance. Class build decisions can always come at the cost of choosing against an equally good build option.
The point of pugging in my example would be to facilitate the creation of premades. You finally find a group you are in synch with and you make a premade and then register in the league. Yes a good pug with r7's and greater enchants will not beat a good premade with rank9's and perfects, but I'll bet that r7/greater team places in the top 20-40% which is pretty darn good, especially if there are thousands of teams.
Comments
EDIT: I admit that in the game they tweaked this system for the sake of shorter queue times.
EDIT2: IMO the only solution of the problem is to have an option to play PvP matches in which all enchants (weapons/armor/slots) on the gear are turned off. Then there should be no problem if there are 'too few' people queueing. All have similar gear (blue isnt alot different than epic and epics are easy to get)
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Actually, I agree with you. This is the first educational post that I've seen so far which in itself is kind of disappointing (not against you). I think I'm giving up on discussing issues on the forums lol.
You pointed out my lack of information regarding the Elo Rating system. It's not just a problem in my post though. It's a problem with the majority of the posts I've seen regarding the Elo system. Most people are not educated on what the Elo system is about and how it works. So instead of sending people off on their own to learn about the Elo system, can someone make a stickie about the Elo system explaining what it is and how it works so we can reason to stop most of these unnecessary misinformation posts about the Elo system.
My question about your leaver solution is that do you think that will ever happen? Immature leaving actually stopping? Or the broader question, how can you encourage good sportsmanship? especially without developer help.
Please... i am not 'crying' ok? Lets assume for simplicity you dont purchase new gear and you dont improve or degenerate in skill. If you play many matches, you will then (by the ELO) end up in a margin where you will have 50% chance to win a match.
Now the point is that the percentage of how skill, gear and your class contribute to your overal performance will vary from player to player. Some may have horrible skill but very good gear for example, some have exceptional skill but poor gear. Even if they differ, their overal performance can be the same. So they will be matched against each other even at an infinite repetition of matches. And this is the situation some people like me dont want, because it will result in a 50% chance to win a match at infinity in which you may loose or win because of gear differences.
In the situation in which you have fixed gear margins (lets assume all have the same gear and class for simplicity), then your win ration will depend on your skill only (as the number of matches tend to infinity). This is the option we'd like to see.
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
Why not listen to the PVP community for once by making a solo Q, a more than 1 person in a group Q, and a full premade Q? for one it would be easier to implement than ELO, and it would sure as **** work better .
i actually think it will never work if it requires thousands of matches as newer players will just screw up that balance entirely. i know i have done over a hundred matches on both my rogue and cleric and it's just silly how imbalanced some matches are.
my last match involved my non-perma rogue simply stomping over everyone as all 9 other players could not compare to my 13k rogue. 24 kills and i don't think a single other person had 10 kills (i should of saved the pic). in fact, i carried my whole team and still lost despite frequently killing 2-3 people by myself. i even won a 1 vs 2 while starting with 20% of my hp.........it simply isn't fair to everyone else when i get matched against them. near the end, i checked and there was 1 8k, 2 10-12k, and 1 15k on my team i think but they were nowhere near on par with me.
sad part is that my biggest reason for losing is my own team being undergeared or maybe inexperienced.
I also agree that ELO will never work as intended, your reasoning is entirely correct, if you add to that the limited player base, we will (even a few months from now) have completely lopsided matchmaking, and more than likely horrible Q times, and before anyone says, hey but that's been fixed, the only reason that it seems to be fixed is ELO has been turned OFF, or dialed down so much that it is completely useless .
Try to find it. You won't.
In fact I have always said it doesn't matter how many matches you have competed in and is actually effected by how many matches everybody has competed in.
I said it will improve indefinitely with time. As in it stabilizes more and more with time.
Once it stabilizes though it won't take longer for new players to get accurately rated as that is what that 30 match statement is actually in regards to. The unknown variable is how long it will take to stabilize. It could stabilize tomorrow or months from now. But the only way for it to stabilize is time.
And that is my broken record for weeks and I predict I will be singing that tune for weeks more. That is the facts though, the system needs time to stabilize and it will take time. The word of advice though is the more you guys throw matches for stupid reasons such as leaving the longer it will take.
I just find it ironic that these people who happen to have 8 hours of free time each day to play neverwinter will somehow then rationalize that they have "a lot of stuff to do" and so they cannot play out the match
Because that is not a matchmaking system.
That is saying because there is no oranges we need apples.
A premade queue is not a solution to lopsided matches. News flash not everybody who is in a premade are geared up the wazoo nor is non-premade groups all the same skill level.
It's something to consider on top of matchmaking but is point blank, no question, can't be justified in your wildest dreams, a solution to a matchmaking system.
For the love of goodness gracious please stop. It doesn't make a bit of sense.
You also overlooked that new players, or established players new alts will skew the matchmaking continually, because they too will have to pvp for their rank to stabilize, so it is entirely possible that ELO might never stabilize, thus we will continue to get lopsided matchmaking ...
As for the full premade Q/semi premade Q/solo Q, I agree that it isn't ideal matchmaking, it could even be added alongside of ELO (or ELO like matchmaking system) it would go a long way to help solo players not get stomped by premades, how is this not matchmaking??? As it stands I am pretty sure this is one of the main reasons pvp matches are so lopsided, 9 times out of 10 we roflstomp the other team, even when we are just a semi premade, why? because we are fighting people that have solo Queued, and we are on TS countering their every move .
a solution to this would be to disallow gear swapping in a match, but i think that should be a requirement anyway. at least while on the battlefield. but if they were to implement some kind of gear matching, it would have to be restricted.
gear matching would likely cause queue delays unless they had some way to dial down the requirements. let's say i have one r7 but the rest rank 5s and a lesser soulforged and a greater bilethorn. is it fair to match me with someone with a greater or perfect soulforged with all r7s? wouldn't that also kill the diversity in builds? even though tenacity has been introduced with tenacity gear, tenacity gear is not required to enter the pvp arena. therefore build diversity is still highly possible with the current system. if i have to think about my gear decisions to make sure i'm going to be able to queue is sort of ridiculous.
here is what wikipedia says about the elo rating system:
so it would seem that the basis of the system is to try to match players as close as possible but when that is not possible, it will put mismatched teams together. how strict that is depends on variable controls. early on in the implementation of the system, it's probably advantageous to dial it down to make the requirements less strict. as more matches are played, there may come a time to dial it up to be more strict.
Again no need to explain ELO. ELO doesnt care about your gear, it cares only about your overall performance (the result of gear+skill+class). If for simplicity your overall performance doesnt change, then you will end up in a margin with 50% win chance when the number of matches tend to infinity. If you further assume that people develop different degrees of skill, then gear mismatches can happen even after many matches. Some people like me dont like this scenario (i.e. they like to have a win chance dependent entirely on their skill when the number of matches tend to infinity).
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
As for weapon or armor enchants they could also create something like an enchantment score (ES), lessers would give you less points than perfects obviously, they could then add an ES bracket to the ladder system ...
I have put very little though into this, a whole team of devs should easily come up with a better system .
It doesn't matter how good your gear is if you don't put it to good use. Gear can either compensate for a lack of playskill or playskill can compensate for a lack of gear.
There is no valid argument that either type of player should be matched directly based on Gear Score as both situations will result in a person winning or losing A LOT. Gear mismatches are going to happen and should happen because gear is not in any way shape or form an accurate way to judge players.
Some players will need a higher gear score than others to be competitive and some players will be extremely competitive with lower gear score. That is the key essential point blank fact of the matter why the Elo System is used over gear scores. There are very few opinions I will ever say are "wrong" but saying that you want gear to be a driving factor is wrong because it will drive less skilled players to perpetually lose and more skilled players to perpetually win. And that just can not be justified. I am sorry but it can not be justified!
I am not arguing the fact that on paper ELO is nice, but in reality it is wonky at best, I personally never said I want gear to be a driving factor, skill trumps GS in most cases (to a certain degree), my previous post was an idea of a system that might work, because in the mean time ELO does not, and probably never will work, fair/even matchmaking with ELO is a pipe dream .
And as a general rule of thumb the population of players will always be in the middle.
While Cryptic will strive to make matches at either end as fast and enjoyable as possible the fact of the matter is there is factually less players on either end of the spectrum. As such there is a consideration to be had between fast queues and ideally balanced matches.
And that is a factual aspect of the player populations of all games. There are always less people on the top and bottom and putting people based on Gear Score will not solve that. No matter what game you play this is the way it functions as this is how populations are naturally distributed.
What can be done is tightening restrictions on the match making limitations but that will result in longer queue times.
This is something the devs have been looking at behind the scenes but it again will take.time to find a sweet spot in the queue limits and in players getting accurately rated to begin with.
Of course there is a very valid argument: Take aside various classes for a moment, then your win-loss ratio in this scenario would be be based entirely on your skill. If you lack in skill you will lose more often, that is the hard way, but fair PvP.
I dont understand why are you seriously arguing that gear should compensate lack in skill. This is exactly what we do NOT want. We do NOT want a compensation of skill by gear which ELO creates. Since it is not possible to set up our own matches, all we demand the possibility to join an alternative PvP queue in which gear doesnt play a role (it would be sufficient to disable all enchants).
- Dualspec
- Better rewarding foundry and foundry pvp maps
- Custom PvP leagues with leaderboards instead of the current 'matchmaking'.
- Armory
- make jumping cost stamina (to reduce hopping in pvp)
i'm pretty sure the ability to set up custom matches will be an option in the future.
?! I don't remember this being mentioned by any of the Devs, I Hope so, that would be fantastic! Its one of the few things PvPers actually want.
The first counterargument to this question is the level 50-59 players don't have all their skills yet as compared to the level 60 players. But, according to some of the logic that is being put forth in this thread in justifying the Level 60 matchup, this should also be eventually balanced out by the Elo ranking system.
I could be wrong and would love to hear why.
All the rest of the mismatches need to remain and the players need to learn how to play better tactics.
CRAZY MIKE - 14.6k PvE CW
Backbone - 16.7k PvP HR
[SIGPIC]http://i59.tinypic.com/s3hts7.png[/SIGPIC]
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?616691-Shadowmantle-Preview-Patch-Notes-NW-14-20140224a-7&p=7366141#post7366141
Well actually he is arguing that skill compensates a lack of gear.
Other way around buddy
Sharandar boons and dailies, dread ring boons and dailies, like you said not enough skill points and feats, the gear imbalance is too much that it will take an even longer time (than it already is) to keep finding appropriate matches for you.
Too many reasons to not implement this. Too many factors to calculate, will make ELO even more horrible than it already is. They should not implement it just to justify and defend themselves against your argument.
This is why the elo system will never work in Neverwinter. There are always an influx of new pvp players + pvp players that only play rarely. They say it takes time. Just wait. Time. Maybe months. MONTHS! lol. In months there will be so much turnover in the pvp playerbase that the system can never really become stable. Time. The problem is time. Long ques = less matches played = more turnover = even longer time for the thing to become stable.
Simple solution:
League play and pugs:
Pug q's will always be random based on nothing other than no more than only individuals q'ing.
League q's would require registered premade, named, teams. A ladder. TEAM RANKS, not individuals. As long as three of the original players who were present when the team was registered are present, they can fill out the rest of the team with anyone else who accepts the invite.
Pugs will always be problematic simply because NWO is so gear centric. By gear-centric I mean things like vorpal. Crit severity should NEVER be based in an item, but rather in a class build. Gear has no negative counterbalance. Class build decisions can always come at the cost of choosing against an equally good build option.
The point of pugging in my example would be to facilitate the creation of premades. You finally find a group you are in synch with and you make a premade and then register in the league. Yes a good pug with r7's and greater enchants will not beat a good premade with rank9's and perfects, but I'll bet that r7/greater team places in the top 20-40% which is pretty darn good, especially if there are thousands of teams.
Jugger Conq GF
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